What do you think of the JFK assasination?

[NickSG]

So what do you guys think of his assassination. Who do you think was involved? Do you think that Oswald kill him? Do you believe the "Magic Bullet Theory".

To tell the truth, I 100 percent believe that Oswald killed JFK, and ill tell you for a fact that there is no Magic Bullet Theory. Its a Magic Bullet FACT. The bullet did not turn in mid air, nor did it zigzag. It went through Kennedy, and kept on going forward hitting Connelly (which BTW was sitting six inches to the left and three inches lower than Kennedy).

It is 100 percent possible to get three accurate shots fired from a bolt action rifle in 8.3 seconds, and Oswald, a very accurate shooter, could easily have done this. At the time of the head shot, JFK was 88 yards from the 6th floor TSBD, and from 200 yards Oswald constantly hit a man sized target 96-98 percent of the time. Despite what some want to believe, it is possible to do what some people claim Oswald didn't do.

Now people wonder why the single bullet from the Magic Bullet Theory was not damaged at all. This is not true. The bullet was pretty banged up, and was far from what most people call "pristine". The bullet failed to hit in bones in JFKs body, and by the time it hit Connelly, the bullet was traveling to slow (<1500 FPS) to fragment and break apart on contact with bone. However, the bullet had enough energy to make the wound to Kennedy's head, and has enough energy and velocity to fragment, which explains the 40 + metal fragments seen in X-rays of Kennedy's head.

The bullet used by Oswald was a Italian 6.5mm cartridge. Its a fairly low velocity bullet compared with most other rifles, and to make up for this the bullet tumbles in flesh. In the JFK assassination, there is clear evidents that shows a 6.5mm bullet was used. A large exit wound in Kennedy's throat is clearly seen in his autopsy photos, not to mention Connelly's wounds. The bullet hit Connelly about 2 inches to the left of his right arm pit, and there are several pictures that show a long, thin bullet wound, which can only be caused when a bullet "keyholes". A bullet can only keyhole when it tumbles, which is what the 6.5mm bullet was designed to do.

As far as I know, there is absolutely no evidents that point to a conspiracy. Sure, there were some idiots there that day (which explains the black umbrella, the guy hiding in the bushes, and several other things), but there is no hard evidents that show exactly where the fatal shot came from, whether or not there were more than one shooters, and whether or not anyone else was involved.

Many people, including myself, believe that LBJ, J Edgar Hoover, Fidel Castro, the KGB, CIA, and FBI was perhaps involved, but IMHO there is absolutely no evidents that proves they were involved.

There are, however, several things that need to be explained. First of all, the day of the investigation the DPD discovered a single fingerprint on one of the boxes in the "snipers nest". It wasn't until a couple of years ago that detectives discovered the finger print belonged to a man named Mack Wallace. Wallace was a dangerous man, a close friend to LBJ and JEH. In the mid 1950s he was charged with the murder a politician, but all charges were dropped because of the help of LBJ. Fingerprints do not last more than a one or two days on cardboard, and Wallace's alibi was questionable. Also, several seconds after Kennedy was first shot, a black umbrella was opened. This is suspicious considering it was a sunny, warm day that day, temperatures around 76 degrees F.

Perhaps one of the biggest questionable evidents are the holes in the windshield. Examiners of the windshield stated that they were sure the holes were caused by high velocity bullet coming from the front. There are several pictures floating around in the web, but most are not clear enough to determine 100 percent that the bullets came from the front.

I'm just wondering what the people in this forum think. Like a stated above, I believe that Oswald was the only shooter.

[zaibatsu]

The tumbling bullets you see the cross-sectional diagrams are of the spitzer-type. The reason they tumble is that they have a centre of gravity at the rear of the bullet, which is all good and fine in the air. However, when this bullet enters another substance of different density, this destabilises it and the rear of the bullet eventually faces forwards, due to the centre of gravity being at the rear.

The pictures I saw of the same type of bullet that Oswald used looked to be similar to A-Square bullets in shape - more like an elongated handgun round than the modern spitzers. These shaped bullets are less likely to tumble than spitzers, so I'm not so sure it would tumble that much. Add to that the fact that it's a low velocity round, which again would limit the amount it tumbled. And a sitting, moving target is much harder to hit than a still standing target. I'm not sure about it all, military surplus rifles aren't much good as is, and the italians don't have a good record with firearms...

EDIT: Here's a pic of the type of military surplus bullets he used
http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Evidence/Wc1-c1.GIF

[NickSG]

I witnessed (in real) life a guy hit a moving watermellon at 80 yards with the exact same rifle as Oswald used (Maniclier Carcano [sp?])

I agree that the bullets are less likely to tumble, but the angle the bullet hits can sometimes cuase the bullet to tumble, not to mention the length of the bullet.

The Magic Bullet was microscopically similar to a bullet test fired from the gun recovered at the crime scene. The chances that the bullet came from another gun around about one in a billion, but becuase the gun that Oswald use wasnt nearly as common as most other guns, it lessens the chances that bullet came from another gun.

[Bert]

The mannlicher carcano was known by the Italians as "the pacifist's rifle" due to it's inaccuracy.

[EP]

I read a book a while back ( Dirty Truths: Reflections on Politics, Media, Ideology, Conspiracy, Ethnic Life and Class Power by Michael Parenti* )

I don't remember exact details, but a lot of things suggest very strongly that it wasn't Oswald. In the military he supposedly couldn't pass his shooting test, another guy behind him helped hold the gun for him to pass. As Bert mentioned, the gun was terribly inaccurate. The gun that supposedly killed JFK had iron sights and sharpshoots couldn't reproduce the shots that were said of have killed him. The whole story of Oswald doens't make sense either, he was a radar operator, defected to Russia, then was let back in the US...why?

Hell, even the History Channel said it wasn't Oswald... This documentary talked a lot about it:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005UW74/102-3201350-3337743?v=glance


book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0872863182/qid=1072766819//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl14/102-3201350-3337743?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[Fear]

I do not beleve in the FBI's honesty. 165 gallons of anfo IIRC, will not blow off half a building in like it was sliced by a cleaver, just like a underpowered bullet will manage to hit two people 4 times. Maybe you just have to have "faith".

[Bert]

It also helps to have Arlen Specter involved in investigating both incidents...

[roux]

if anyone has seen the "who shot JFK" special on the history channel about a month ago, you would have seen all the possibilities of shooters. from what they came up with, they think there were threee different shooters. one in the library building, one on "the grassy nole" from behind a wall, and one from a man-hole down the street.

[NickSG]

A show called "Forensic Files" that airs on Court TV had an hour long special on this. This is one of the most respected shows dedicated to using evidents to help solve a crime.

They went down to Dealy Plaza with a few guys, and they tested out nearly every single theory.

"A shooter in the water drains". They tested this theory out. They had a small five foot two man climb down the hole that some think a shoot was sniping from. He was equiped with a rifle, and when he tried to aim at where JFK could be at any given time, he found it impossible becuase he the opening was to small to see any lower than about 15 feet above Kennedys head.

"A shooter in the Grassy Knole". They also tested this theory out, and came to the conclusion that it would be impossible to make the bullet wounds to Kennedy and Conalley if the bullets originated from the Grassy Knole. If this were the case, Kennedy would has to have some sort of exit wound on the left side of his body, and even today, the first doctors to see him at Parkland Hospistal testify there were absolutly no wounds to the left side of Kennedys body.

On the show that aired several nights ago, the recovered Oswalds records from when he was in the army and proved he was highly accurate. At 200 yards (about 1/3 the distance used today) he hit a man sized target 48 times, with absolutly no help from anyone. The second day, he got 49. Many people today get their "facts" from movies and books that seem to make up stuff, but when you look at the facts there is little evidents of a conspiracy.

Also on this show, they set up the crime scene that exactly replicates Dealy plaza on the day of the assasination. They built a limosuine sized car out of plywood, and in the back of the "car" where Kennedy would have sit, they place a watermellon exactly the highth that Oswald would has seen him. They them moved the car at exactly 10 MPH, and had a sharpshooter sitting on about 60 feet above the ground (armed with the exact same MC 6.5mm rifle Oswald had) and he fired 3 shots at the moving car, the first one hitting the watermellon (blowing it up) and the second hitting outside of the limo and the third hitting to the left of the watermellon. Although this doesnt match exactly what happened on November 22, it does show that an accurate man with what most consider a crappy rifle can redo what happened that day.

Like I said above, I witnessed in real life a man hit a moving watermellon. I also got the chance to shoot the rifle, and although it wasnt no Remmy 700, it could definatly get the job done as long as the shooter did his. I did notice that the rifle tends to jam every once in a while (just like on the show) but 4 times out of 5 you could get 3 quick shots without a jam.

Many people dont not understand Oswald, and after 40 years people have started to make up stuff about him. The truth is that he was an outcast, and wanted to be one. He had absolutly no Russians in his family, but admired communism, and tried many times to get involved with Cuba and Russias governments. At first, he traveled to Russia, but when he got there he was denied and was ordered to be sent back to Russia. When he got back to his hotel room, he slit his wrists, and when people came to get him out, he blackmailed the Russian government, and becuase of this they let him stay for a while.

While he was living there, he was given a job in a factory, and made several friends, but after a while he ended up coming back to America. Several months later, he went down to Mexico City, and tried getting involved with the Cuban goverment (if im not mistaken the headquarters were located in MC). He was turned down, and sent back to America. These are FACTS told by his wife, brother, sister, and housewife. NOT made up stories the people have come up with.


"just like a underpowered bullet will manage to hit two people 4 times. Maybe you just have to have "faith". - The 6.5mm rifle is in no way underpowered, it is just not the most powerful. It can send a 160 grain bullet well over 2200 FPS, which even by todays standards is not "underpowered". Its energy levels is close the the .30-30 Winchester.

[Fear]

0_o the 30-30 is considered very underpowered, both cartridges have a too light powder load, too high a drop, and too light a bullet to do what it supposedly did in accordance the governments official announcement. I really don’t care who shot who from where with what for whom, that’s just politics. What I do care about is that the facts don't add up at all; The government lied, that’s what I, as a voter and a citizen, care about.

[NickSG]

The average .30-30 bullet has nearly 2000 FPE, compared to a .44 magnum with about 1000, the .45 ACP with 500, and the 9mm with about 450. Thats not at all what I would consider underpowered. 88 yards is absolutely no task for any rifle bullet. I do shooting with my Marlin M60 at 100 yards.

The wound to Kennedys head wasnt as great as most people think. The bullet sort of grazed him, hitting him in the top right side of his head, and exiting near the right temple. Connect the wounds, and you will notice it wasnt all that great. Damage was mostly to his cerebrum.

[Nihilist]

While the forensics show may have had someone take 3 semi-accurate shots from a similar distance at a similar target, I seriously doubt that the shooter did it in 8.3 seconds. In fact, nobody has ever been able to take 3 accurate shots from that type of rifle in the same time span that Oswald supposedly did it.

[NickSG]

He did do it in under 8.3 seconds, although I dont remember the exact time. I swear to you that it is 100 percent to redo what happened that day, and several people have done it. If you still do not believe me, contact CourtTV and ask for the "Forensic Files" episode about the JFK conspiracy, and ask for a copy.

[xyz]

Nihilist, It is not very difficult to fire 3 shots in 8 seconds with a bolt action rifle so long as you are fairly experienced in it's operation. Hell, you only have to operate the bolt twice to acheive this.

[NightStalker]

Having seen pictures of kennedy on the slab with a big chunk of his skull missing, I'd hardly call it a "minor" wound.

And since when is having a bullet going through your skull "wasn't all that great" an injury? :rolleyes:

There's really no point in us arguing over what could, or could not, have happened as we weren't there and anyone who did know what "really" happened (if it was a conspiracy) has long since been killed or died.

[NickSG]

Originally posted by NightStalker
Having seen pictures of kennedy on the slab with a big chunk of his skull missing, I'd hardly call it a "minor" wound.

And since when is having a bullet going through your skull "wasn't all that great" an injury? :rolleyes:


I never did call it a minor wound. Im just saying that even with the technology back them, it might have been possible for him to live, although he wouldnt be able to do about half of the things he did before.

The cerebrum is one of the least important parts of the brain, and is one of the largest. Damage was little to anything else other than the cerebrum, and there was absolutly no damage to the left side of his brain. The bullet pretty much took his skull off with about 90 percent of the right side cerebrum with it. If anything he died from blood loss.

[Mumble]

There will always be an argument over the shooter CourtTV used. He was a professional marksman, he had unlimited attempts to recreate this while Oswald only had 1. Theres probably a few more that escape my slightly dazed memory. I saw it with my own eyes, he did it in something like 7.8 seconds. Quite accuratly I might add. The gun did jam time and time again though. They proved it was theoretically possible for Oswald to have shot JFK, but it doesn't mean he did. If he was able to hit JFK from that distance, without the gun jamming, he must have been very lucky that day.

[Charlie Workman]

The Carcano is always given a bad rap by conspiracy theorists and most people have accepted their word at face value. It's a basically good bolt action, no worse than others of the period and better than some. The 6.5mm bullet was long a favorite with Continental hunters of the early 20th century. Reason? - they have excellent penetration. Next time someone hands you that "junk rifle" crap, ask them why the Italian army rifle team used them up until the middle 60's. The M-1 Garand was their standard rifle in the 50's and 69's, so it wasn't like they had no alternative. My thinking on the JFK assasssination was changed radically by reading Dr. John Lattimer's book on the subject. I tend to trust the word of a shooter on gun related subjects, and he answered all my questions. While it is more exciting to believe he was killed by a vast conspiracy (some of these theorists get really off the wall), it was only a dipshit loser with a rifle. Don't even get me started on the MLK assassination.
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"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas!"
-Gidget

[tingtao]

NickSG,
I am assuming what might have sparked this thread was that you viewed the recent documentary on the History Channel. I noticed your post date is Dec 30th, I believe that was around the time I also watched the documentary.
The computer animation that they displayed was pretty impressive. Also how they presented the analysis of the audio from the microphone of the patrolman's motorcycle and proved it to be a totally different location and therefore not applicable, thus proving that another shooter was not present.
The main theme that this documentary was attempting to portray towards the public was that there was not a conspiracy involved. That Oswald acting completely independant.
I will say they did a very nice job in the documentary of convincing so.
It had me pondering some things.
We all know the the various 'facts' and events that have been discussed so it can be a bit exhausting.
Two things caused a different type of revelation within me.
I went to bed that night, when everything was quiet. That documentary came into my mind. Despite how convincing the data they presented seemed, something still spoke out that there was more involved. It was just something in the air you could feel.
Also, seeing this thread in itself interested me in this manner: The recent documentaries, the special section now in the book stores dedicated to this event, and presented at a time where the public is raising questions about the governments involvement/foreknowledge/coverup or whatever, with the whole 9/11 tragedy. It sort of seems to me like whoever, is pulling up an old event that millions in this country still believe a conspiracy was involved, presenting new evidence in the hopes that the public will say to themselves, 'gee maybe our government is o.k.' :rolleyes:

Who knows, sometimes you just have to quiet the mind, be still and go on your gut feeling. If it's difficult to go on evidence presented in a matter, go on the 'smell' it gives off.

Well anyway, just seems real strange how that whole family seemed cursed.

[knowledgehungry]

I saw the video and it appeared to me that he was shot from the front and right,his right. IIRC he was supposedly shot from a different angle.

[Charlie Workman]

The Zapruder film shows the right front of his head blowing out. That, my friend, is a classic exit wound, no matter which way his body jerks.
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"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas!"
-Gidget

[NickSG]

Charlie: With high power rifles there will always be a large entrance and exit wound, despite what you see in the movies. Even if it was an exit wound, wheres the entrance? It would have to be on the left side, so good luck trying to convince every doctor that examine Kennedy that they totally missed a >1 inch hole.

[vulture]

I faintly remember someone saying something about operation Northwood or something that sounded like it.

It boiled down to a covert plan that should convince the american public of the evil of Cuba and other communist countries by comitting terroristic actions against the american public.
Some say Kenedy was killed because he was either going to expose or halt the program.

Now, I have some difficulties with this theory myself, but it does shed an interesting light on the current war on terror.

Ofcourse, if the JFK assassination and 9/11 are tied together, then we're in for some really though shit in the future...:eek:

[Guerilla]

Here (http://altermundus.net/northwoods.htm) is the plot of Operation Northwoods in a nutshell. It is a kind of interesting theory afterall, not the provocation part (the same trick as Hitler and Stalin used to start their invasions back in WWII) but how Kennedy would have alone prevented a nuclear war and eventually - meet a martyr death, because of resisting the military community and LBJ. The assassination took place quickly after JFK had declared to start decreasing troops in Vietnam. Im no expert on this field, but this certainly gives a whole lot new point of view for these events, 9/11? who knows..

As a side note to the actual assassination video, it looks strange to me how the limousine driver puts on the brakes and starts glancing back towards Kennedy, as soon as he gets hit. Just like he would be waiting for the deadly shot to come.. but then again it all happened in a matter of a few seconds and he got confused what was going on.

[vulture]

God damn! That page EXACTLY describes what I was thinking!

This puts the JFK assassination in a totally different context.

This is getting REALY creepy :eek:

Cuba Crisis
JFK <----> Northwoods (oil&defense contractors)
Bush Senior <---> 2nd Gulf War
9/11
Bush Junior <----> Afghanistan oil pipeline
Bush Junior <----> 3rd Gulf War

Now, you may accuse me of being a conspiracy nutcase, but then this is some fucking GIANT coincedence.

Now, where's that picture of the burning Reichstag and the burning Twin Towers?

[knowledgehungry]

The 2nd Gulf War had no triggering event save Saddam Husseins aggression, I see no conspiracy there, afghanistan we get oil + fuck up some terrorist, no crime there for me at least ;). Iraq I am beginning to think was a mistake, but we shall see what happens in the next few years.

[DimmuJesus]

I think what will happen is Bush will not get re-elected and this whole crazy campaign will stop. I agree we should not have gone into Iraq at all. Whose to say that they can't have weapons? Every other country gets to have them. If I were a country that was scared that the US would come in a wipe us out, I'd have weapons too! And if the problem was just Saddam, why didn't we just have someone assassinate him? The only part of this whole thing I agree with is that Saddam should have been eliminated. But not the whole country and their culture at the same time.

[DimmuJesus]

Oh, sorry, on JFK; it does look as if he is shot more than once. But I base this on the jerking of his body. However, could his body jerking the other way be caused by the vehicle since I'm sure the driver had a reaction to the shot.

[vulture]

Bush will get reelected.

He'll either use a terrorist attack or diebolts voting machines (which are full of security holes) to get himself reelected.

Anybody voting democrats is a communistic treehugger anyways and who would like to be called that way?

[Jacks Complete]

vulture,

surely "terrorist"?

[vulture]

Ofcourse it would be plain terroristic. Unless you can prove that the money went from oil company --> Bush ---> Wolfowitz (DoD) ---> CIA --> OBL

That is, if the last step happens at all.

Try reading www.911timeline.net
The site has some rather interesting questions about the rather odd responses of NORAD and Dubya to the attacks.

[Jacks Complete]

vulture,

you misunderstand me.

I meant anyone voting democrat would be branded a "terrorist".

That timeline was interesting... molten steel weeks afterwards... defies any explanation by me!

[Voyager]

I don't care who shot JFK -- I'm just glad they did it.

After the Bay of Pigs, JFK deserved to die.

When he broke his word and abandoned those men on the beach to die, he forfeited his own right to live.

I believe Oswald, acting alone, killed JFK.

And if not, hey, it only means we have someone else to thank.

[gliper]

I think it was vary profesional but the cover up was slopy.

He diden't give his word to anyone, his advisers perposly got him to OK the raid so they would be taken captive and require an invasion, the presedent did not play along.

[bipolar]

If you have seen the documentary 9/11 the road to tyranny or masters of terror by Alex Jones infowars.com (http://www.infowars.com) it covers the jfk real quick with the facts, JFK was so outraged by operation Northwoods, which received approval all the way up the military before kennedy, that when he found out about it he turned against his backers and signed an executive order to abolish the federal reserve and go back on the gold standard you will only understand if you know how the federal reserve works and who controls it, he was assassinated and his executive orders were never carried out but are still in the public record, you have to look at the motive, look who benifits. just like OKC bombing and 9/11 which are also covered in those movies. Putin got caught in russia doing the same thing he had the fsb blow up apartment buildings and then blame it on the chechens to justify their war on terror and the taking away of their rights and a russian media tycoon was going to expose it to the public and they threatened him with arrest and he had to flee to america. george bush signed a classified executive directive order W199-EYE to the FBI prohibiting FBI agents from investigating al queada and threatening them with arrest if they did 2 months before 9/11 and the top al queda expert John O'neal leaked this to the foreign press like the BBC and some people reported on it and then he resigned and got hired by a private security company for 3 times his former salary to be head of security for the world trade center(which neill bush was on the board of the company) and his first day on the job was 9/11 and he was killed going back up in there to help people out. you just gotta watch these videos, i thought all conspiracies were just theory until I saw these videos, and now i know they arent theories but they are facts. somebody who has a video capture card should buy those movies and upload them to the ftp or something because they are very important

[bipolar]

BTW, oswald was the patsy, all he had to do is fire a shot whether it hit or missed while the real marksmen were guaranteed hit. How did the CIA choose him as a patsy? It was just recently released from declassified KGB files that oswald defected to the soviet union because he publicly hated america and loved communism so he went to the soviet union and desperately wanted to be in the KGB, they refused him because he was too mentally unstable they determined, and they were trying to kick him out and the nut slit his wrists or threatened to commit suicide or something if they didn't let him stay so they let him stay for a year or so and then kicked him out back to the US, and where I got the KGB info is from good morning america, they dedicated a segment to it, implying that he was just a lone nut who hated america, he was a nut and thought he was the one who killed kennedy probably, but the CIA has obviosly got to know about him defecting to the soviet union and how easy could it have been for CIA agents to pretend they are KGB or rogue KGB agents and that they had a mission for him and issued him a gun and told him exactly what to do, then Jack Ruby CIA killed him so he wouldn't be able to confess that to anything other than the lone nut and not any kind of organized plot by the KGB, CIA, or anyone. sorry for the crappy grammar but thats how I ramble out things on to the computer real fast.

[tmp]

I've seen numerous theories on the JFK assassination. One man who claims
he was the shooter in the knoll is locked up in the Illinois State Prison System.
His name is James Files. Files claims that he and 2 mob friends, Nicoletti and
Roselli assassinated JFK. Files further claims that he doesn't know ordered it.
Files apparent weapon of choice is the Remington XP Fireball, a single-shot
bolt action pistol chambered for the .221 Remington "Fireball" round. He claims
he fired the shot from the knoll that hit JFK in front causing his head to snap
back. JFK's head snapping back is evident in the Zapruder film. If you can
find it see the VHS interview of James Files - The Murder of JFK: Confession
Of An Assassin. Files may just be another crackpot trying to get his 15
minutes of fame, but have a look at his interview and you be the judge.

[Corona]

Have a look at something interesting here...

http://www.rense.com/general41/wew.htm

Makes one think, doesn't it?

And I've also got the 26 second video clip of JFK going kaput. If anyone wants, I'll send it upstairs.

[tmp]

I saw the History Channel presentation with witnesses claiming that LBJ was
going to be rid of those damn Kennedies. It was also implied that LBJ was not
below using murder to achieve his goals. What was interesting was the
so-called mainstream media going berserk and in a full state of denial after
that presentation. I've heard most of the theories that it was either the CIA,
FBI, DoD, KGB, LBJ, Castro, Kruchev, the Cubans from the Bay Of Pigs, or Lee
Harvey Oswald. Would anyone entertain the possibility of a conspiracy from
2 or more of the bad actors listed above ? I think it's possible given the many
enemies that JFK had.

[john_smith]

Oswald might have done the actual shooting, its just that it wasn't his own idea. No other way to explain Jack Ruby, a shitload of related witnesses killed in mysterious accidents and all the other crap. Just my $0.02.

[nbk2000]

Everyone else on the plane looked rather somber, but the dude winking, and LBJ's wife (smiling), don't seem too busted up about it, do they? Hmmm....