silenced ammo

[jackhammer]

The problem inherent with silenced guns is that although one may silence the initial explosion which drives the bullet from the shell, that still leaves the problem of the supersonic crack heard as the bullet passes over head. Of course, this problem too can be solved, most of the time by using subsonic ammunition (the famous mp5sd, however, has a special chamber to tap off extra gas, slowing the bullet down without the need for special ammunition). The problem here is that this slowing vastly decreases the damage done by the bullet. One could use poisoned or explosive tips, but explosive tips would be heard, and poison would not help the penetration of even slight armor. A solution I stole from a number of different military techniques (among them APFSDS shot, composite armor, and the Steyr AMR / IWS 2000 round) would be to have a round with an extremely dense core ending in a very sharp point, surrounded by materials of varying density and strength. That way the core could penetrate some armor by being much stronger than the armor material and by having a greater amount of pressure per inch (due to the point). Even at a reduced speed the core should be capable of punching through something like kevlar (designed to spread the impact of a bullet). The softer surroundings serve two purposes: it may decrease total weight lessening the nead for a greater (and noisier) explosion, and smashing into a non-armoured body shattering bones and severing arteries instead of penetrating straight through like the core would.

[Anthony]

So, Jackhammer, you have reinvented a standard Armour Piercing round with a steel/tungsten/DU etc penetrator?

[keith]

Are you talking sniper weapon system or a close combat system like the Hkmp5?
For sniper weapon systems one could have a round like that of which is shot out of the 50BMG for penetrating heavy armored vehicles. The projectile would be subsonic and very big(about 900grains) and with a supressor, would be silent to anyone further than 40 yards away from it and nothing but a small slap sound to anyone within 40 yards. Once the bullet has reached its target and impacts it, an explosive charge initiates and propells a smaller tungsten core @ about 5000 feet per second destroying the target. The sound made from the projectiles HE initiation doesn't matter to the sniper as it is heard several hundred meters away from his location.file://localhost/Users/keith2/Desktop/50CATSShot1.jpg

I think he wants a close combat weapon though....

For a close combat weapon(I'll use a HkMp5 for an example weapon) I dont think there is any way around it. Your still just throwing a small peaice of metal going very slow. The only way I see is to totaly use a different concept of firearm like a coil gun or a pnuematic weapon system but I dont think this what your talking about. Shooting heavy bullets(600-1000grains) even at slow speeds will give alot of recoil even with a good muzzle break so a combat sub-machine gun would be out of the question unless you were limited to double or maybe triple shot bursts.
Hitting a target in the kevlar vest with a 800 grain bullet going 900 feet per second would be similar to getting hit by a basball bat....

For more target damage you want more energy in foot pounds to hit your target, use this formula for determining bullet energy. Formula - Bullet weight (grains) x velocity (feet per second) squared ÷ 450240 (constant)

[gliper]

keith mentioned a hevy bullet but whent on and dident realy mention this just useing a realy heavy bullet at just below the speed of sound is probabaly the easyest cheepest way to go, for a given speed energy is a linier function of mass 2x mass = 2x energy.

One other way to go is to shoot a delaied rocket, so it gains speed later and sounds competely different.

[zyk43]

I know you can get exotic steel cored projectiles (which sound like what you are describing here) however these are stopped by modern ballistic materials like Dyneema in a IIIA level vest. I think the projectile is called Tokarev or something

[A-BOMB]

You know the russians made a bunch of silencer less pistols that were quite by using a special shell with think steel walls and a piston would fire the bullet out when the shell was fired end of the piston would expand sealing the gases behind it, the piston would then shoot forward and propell the bullet while keeping the gases seald in the shell.

[jackhammer]

So, Jackhammer, you have reinvented a standard Armour Piercing round with a steel/tungsten/DU etc penetrator? Basically, yes. Some differences are 1: the standard tungsten carbide armor piercing round is a tungsten carbide TIPPED round, and 2: this round often over penetrates. I would use the tungsten carbide as a pointed core, but surround it with materials like bronze, brass, lead, synthetic polymers, even glass. Most of these materials could not pierce any armor, but they would cause devestation in the body of a armorlessperson. That would enable this round to both penetrate armor and still be highly lethal to non-armor.

[PHAID]

That majority of all Armor piercing rounds have the penetrator inside the case.
The SS109 round the military uses has a tungsten penetrator.

Here is a link to a site that shows the basic construction of common bullet types.
http://world.guns.ru/ammo/bullets-e.htm

Back to the title of this thread this may be of some interest.
http://world.guns.ru/ammo/sp-e.htm

[jackhammer]

That majority of all Armor piercing rounds have the penetrator inside the case. True enough. The point is not the penetrator, it is the combination of composite soft metals and materials combined with the penetrator enabling a definite kill shot even at subsonic speeds.

[PHAID]

The military doesnt want killing shots, they prefer severe wounding as it costs the enemy more in manpower as well as destroying morale.

[Narkar]

Can the military use that? They can only use the FMJ but are they allowed to use hardened core bullets?

[NickSG]

Originally posted by PHAID
The military doesnt want killing shots, they prefer severe wounding as it costs the enemy more in manpower as well as destroying morale.

Actually, they want kills. A man with a bullet in his leg will shoot back. A dead guy wont. As far as I know, neither WWII, Korean, Vietnam, nor Desert Storm used this strategy. There isnt anything stating that this was the stretegy. Besides, why are all soliders and snipers trained to aim for the chest and head?

BTW why was keith banned?

[xyz]

NickSG, the army does aim for "casualties" not kills. They want to wound the target badly enough that they can't shoot back but they don't want to kill him. Snipers are an exception because they are usually given targets of more importance than the average infantry soldier (eg. officers etc.).

The reason for this is that if a squad member is hit in the head, he is killed instantly and you now have one person unable to fight. If he received a 5.56mm wound to the chest area, it would take 2 to 4 more soldiers to carry him to safety as well as the rest of the squad being demoralized by his gurgling screams. This makes the wounded soldier, plus the ones that carry him, unable to fight as well as demoralizing the rest of his squad.

The desire for casualties instead of kills is one of the reasons for modern assault rifles being chambered in 5.56mm or 5.45mm instead of more powerful cartridges such as 7.62mm, .308, or .30-06. Note that sniper rifles, for use in situations where kills are desired, are chambered in these more powerful cartridges.

And keith was banned for being a faggamuffin in general and saying stupid things.

[NickSG]

The .223 is by no means a weak round. Heres (http://www.ammo-oracle.com/images/75tap.jpg) a picture of a 75 grain TAP round shot into ballistic gellatin. Notice the large permanant cavity and the fragments. Heres (http://www.ammo-oracle.com/images/m193frag.jpg) another picture of a .223 (M193 ball). The one on the right was the one recovered from ballistic gelatin. Over 150 fragments were recovered.

The reason the US uses .223 is becuase it is smaller, lighter (210 rounds compared to 100), easier to control during FA fire, and uses up less resources to make. And as far as I know, there are no official sources confirming that technique was used in any war the US fought in. This strategy might be a personal thing, but I sure as hell wouldnt use this technique, nor would I be around anyone that plans on doing so.

[PHAID]

You are trained to shoot to kill in the military but the systems are made to produce causulties.

Most landmines will only bloy your foot or leg off, the rounds you fire will only kill if you get a direct hit on a vital organ.

As for why we were trained to shoot at the chest is simple, It is the BIGGEST target.
About any shooting training you recieve will instruct you to shoot center mass, All that shooting in the arm, leg, head that hollywood shows is BS.

If you get nailed in one of those areas in battle it was by pure chance not that they aimed for it.

No it isnt military policy to shoot to maim ( That isnt politicly correct ) but they did realise it was an added bonus that reduced your enemies ability to fight on 3 levels.
You get one man down from the wound.
You tie up a few to care for them
You kill the morale of the men around him.

XYZ has it correct in his answer and NickSG you are correct that they went to the 5.56mm due to the weight and increase of ammo that can be carried in a battleload.

Narkar the military is restricted to FMJ rounds but can use "penetrators" .
They design the rounds to be unstable enough that contact with the target will cause them to tumble causing damage like a hollowpoint or softpoint round.

[zaibatsu]

The US military aren't restricted to FMJ as I understand, why would you think that?

[Anthony]

Isn't FMJ the only ammunition allowed for use in warfare by the Geneva Convention?

[zaibatsu]

Sort of. So I read, the bit about "projectiles designed to cause injury" was an add on to the original convention, and the US never signed this updated version. Therefore they could still use JHP or whatever, but I think it's just a technical thing and they still use FMJ in war for politics' sake. However, if they are fighting non-combatants, even if they had signed up to the updated Geneva convention, they could use whatever ammunition they wanted.