School shootings

[EP]

More specifically I was thinking of this one:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3394831.stm

They aren't anything terribly shocking in the US anymore (we live in a violent culture and are somewhat jaded), here is something just today:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/01/13/national1121EST0533.DTL

So I'm curious to hear what the Dutch members have to say about what has happened because Europe is so different from the US in things like this. Or just anyone that has something to say...

[Blackhawk]

That second one is pure crap. Some kids made some violent drawings, had info on where to buy rifles (ohh, those terrible yellow pages) and apparently 'had plans' even though they both said that it wasn't serious and just a joke, and neither one was recognised to be a discipline problem. Yet now they are under arrest for 'terroising', seriously terrorising who, that stuff was only found after an anon call sparked the cops to go and look for it.

[xyz]

The kid in the first article got off pretty lightly, 5 years for murder. The article doesn't say anything about it but I wonder if the court decided he did it because of mental problems or something like that.

[Wild Catmage]

No doubt the anti-gun lobbies will have a field day on these incidents.

The Louisiana pair were bullied, so what did the school do? Probably jack shit, which is why the two ended up reacting like this. Not that they'd actually done anything wrong. Reminds me of the pre-crime unit in the film Minority Report.

On the other hand, teachers have so many students that they possibly can't keep a close watch over all of them, so stuff like this happens.

Did any of these stories make it onto the main televised news programmes, or were they web-based only?

[john_smith]

Reminds me of something I've dreamed about doing ever since the columbine shooting: hiding a few shotguns and IEDs in a school (ie not mine), then giving the cops an anonymous tip about a few kids (not naming the names of course) planning a massacre. Much more effective than actually carrying it out since there would be constantaneous atmosphere of fear and terror until the "conspirators" are caught...which won't happen.
Imagine all the scared soccermoms taking their kids out of that school, extra security...I suppose it would fuck the school for good.

[Flake2m]

Well whether the kids were planning anything or not they are still victims. Anyone that has been bullied at school knows how miserable your life can be. What makes it even worse is that people often will do nothing. The people that watch it going on can be worse because not only do they let it happen but they don't do anything to stop it.

The two kids in the second article were probaly fed up with being bullied so they probaly decided to draw a few pictures, which are the next best thing to belting the people responsible.
Whats happened is a breech of privacy. Someone decided that what was on paper was going to happen in real life so instead of the pictures being a way to stop the kids from snapping they were used as a reason to say they were going to snap.
The document on how to buy weapons is probaly something unrelated, it could be the guys debating research for all we know.

If you wondering why the guys didn't see the school pshrink. They like many other people decided they weren't trustworthy and I am not surprised why, as they'll probaly say that they are going to shoot up a school anyway.

It takes guts to stand up to a bully, but your gutless if you need to have a gun to face them. Words are often enough to make them stop.

EDIT: this is my 200th post

[Speakle]

I live close to what Wild Catmage is talking about and I think it is bullsh*#. When I was in school it was you would pick on or get picked on and go about your buisness. Although some peoples lives were made a touch umcomfortable sometimes, it is no reason to go postal on a whole school. I dont understand why society all of a sudden took this turn where it is so well thought out and sometimes carried out to kill those who were unkind to you instead of just thinking badly of them. I have done my share of making fun of people and now that I look back on it I feel very bad about it and wish I would have done otherwise but because I was young and stupid is that any reason to kill me and my classmates? Everybody makes mistakes, some are worse than others and kids can be cruel to other kids but they should not be murdered because of it.

[tmp]

Talking to the school shrink would have been out of the question.
The American Psychiatric Association is a charter member of the
old Handgun Control Inc. Any doctor/patient confidentiality would
probably go out the window if retaliation or weapons are mentioned.
In the U.S.A., even cops fear talking to departmental shrinks for
fear that they will be suspended from duty and have their badge
and service weapon taken away.

Having been a victim of bullies during childhood, it is a humilitating
experience. The biggest problem I had with the bullies was that it
was never 1 person but always a group. It's easy to get your ass
kicked when you have to fight off more than 1 person. Now these
poor kids who have been hurt and humiliated are about to find out
that the biggest bully, that is the fucking authorities, are going to
hurt them even more by prosecuting them.

Kids shouldn't have to fear going to school because of the gangs
of little felons who take a sadistic pleasure in hurting others.
The school authorities need to identify the bullies and intervene
or else they risk more Columbine-like massacres.

[gliper]

Bullying has been around since time begain multi shot guns 150 ish years schools became populer 100 years ago realy a better predicter is anti-depesents going to kids. I do beleve mass prozac usedge imedietly predates the (white) school shooting trend. (I herd that urban black gangstas shoot it out in school so often its not reported anymore.)

I may be confusing things though I saw most of that stuff a long time ago.

[Barcy]

Funny how things have changed, in my day (yeah I am over 40) most youngboys, draw nasty pictures or made rash and unpleasant comments on what they would like to do to the teach or school bully.
Mind you in my days, you could do rifle shooting as a school sport, use the woodwork room to build a new target stock for your rifle (bolt would stay in the principles office) and bullies where usually dealt with by someone soon enough, be it a teacher or a collection of young toughs who would band together and punch the crap out of the bully.
Still life experience has shown me, you can not always stand up to a bully, but being a quickwitted smart ass in my early years of employment, before workplace bullying was a legal issue, I sorted out quite a few workplace bullies through simple revenge techniques, when the use of a few well applied physical blows to the face were not an option. Fabricated primary charge attached to my bosses exhaust pipe was a favourite or dropping a pair of womens knickers where the wife or girlfriend can find them also worked wanders.
So if I was a kid with a bully problem in todays society, I would use John Smiths idea and collected and fabricate some antisocial and violent evidence and set up the bully who is picking on me.
I would collect a few pipes, blades and some nasty documents, put these in the bullies posession and notify the authourities. Even if they do not get in trouble, I am sure every bugger will keep an eye on them and make the chances to bully other people near impossible.

[nbk2000]

Where's the trend of school poisonings?

Unfortunately too few kids have the sense to go the way of the Bourgias and use poison rather than the dramatic gunfire route.

But, I guess it's easier for them to get a gun from home and go on a shooting rampage than to do some research and obtain a poison.

If the bully is the type to steal your lunch...then let him have it...along with the poisoned candy bar contained within. With any luck he'll share it with some of his fellow bullies. :D

[IDTB]

It's all about the drama. Who wants to see them sick with poisoning or worse yet, die of it anonymously? You want them screaming, you want them curled up crying their hearts out. You want them to look you in the eye and know who's done it. You want what they took from you. You want your name back.

Of course... that would be all theoretical.

[DimmuJesus]

Usually these kids pull the shootings as an absolute last resort. There are usually many unnoticed cries for help leading up to the massacre.

I was talking to a customer a couple of weeks ago that is attending the same high school that I had graduated from years before. He was telling me how the school has security cameras everyplace inside and out. He said there is a full-time school cop who has both an M-4 and a riot shotgun in his office (this being well known so these kids could get ahold of them), and I was told that by 2006 they hope to have metal detectors, security guards, and clear lockers. If I had grown up in this sort of environment, I think I'd be driven to do something rash as well.

Maybe the school district should consider using the money they have put into this outrageous action into better counseling programs, for training teachers and staff to notice warning signs and student outcries. I feel this is a ridiculous waste of my tax money when it could be spent in a much better way.

[Barcy]

I like NBKs idea, sneaky and effective. No worries of metal detection, security guards, police and most if not all of the evidence is eaten. Where is the satisfaction of publicly blowing away someone to spend a life in jail. If you want to remove a problem using firearms, do it discretely and preferrable with a sound modifier. I suppose the trouble with todays children, is we want attention, especially for the negative things we do.
I like the idea of additives to ones food supply, I quiet like the idea of a powerful poison and/or powerful hallucinegic. Bully goes into a psycho fit from a drug abuse, before dying of overdose. Happens all the time. I know of people who lick cane toads for a high and the poison is quiet deadly, you could help a bully get high before you sent them to their maker, if he survives again no one will trust him and there will always be someone keeping an eye on them.

[nesler]

But in the cases where the shooters intend to either escape, or not live through the ordeal (Columbine), then there is no fear of jail stopping them. In fact, there really is no fear. The poisoning idea wouldn't be satisfactory in a case like that. The bullied can't imagine life going on after that (either they don't expect to live through it, or they don't even think about it), so that's why you haven't seen poisoning occuring.
Poisoning food is ineffective, anyways, because the idea of kids stealing lunch bags is old-fashioned. Now they just kick the shit out of the wimps. Gassing might not be appealing, because maybe they only wanna hurt the kids that they hate.

[Flake2m]

The metal detectors, security cameras and full time cops are simply treating a symptom. To be able to truly stop school shootings and bullying you need to be able to treat the cause. The cause is an unsafe environment. Would you want to go to school if you knew you were going to get the shit beaten out of you everyday?

Some people say that bullying is just a part of going to school and growing up. NO IT ISN'T. Every student has a right to learn in an undisrupted environemt. Sure some kids don't want to learn but that doesn't mean they can distract the others from learning.

Now everyone on this forum has been to school or is still in school. So everyone here has either been a bully or has been bullied so you'd all know what its like.
At the school I went to kids became good runners, good fighters or had a very quick tongue. Well that was atleast until the new principal did a crackdown on bullying by encouraging students to report it and actually punishing bullies. They also had counselling for the people that were more desperate. This worrked and reduced bullying quite alot.

As for your Idea on poisons NBK. I remember several stories about poisons. My Dad once told me a story about a kid that use to have his lunch stolen by the school bully. So one day he made a special sandwich just for the bully. He put some dogshit between 2 pieces of bread and said it was chocolate spread. Bully comes along steals his "special lunch" and of course eats the dogshit :p. The rest of the students then start laughing at him because he has just eaten dogshit. The bully never stole anyones lunch again.

Another idea I saw was on the TV series "The Pretender". Bully is stealing this kids lunch everyday. So he makes up a big bunch of chocolate brownies, the only difference is that he puts concertrated prune extract in it ;). The toilets at the school are those portable ones so before school he locks up all but one of the boys toilets and sabotages the hinges on the unlocked one so the door falls off with the pull of a string.
Bully steals his chocolate brownies at lunchtime with the kid telling him "he'll be sorry" as he starts scoffing them down. a few minutes later the bully is getting stomach cramps and really needs to take a shit because of the prune extract. He runs to the toilets, find that theres only one he can use while he's shitting and farting away the door falls off in front of everyone in the playground. :D

[ossassin]

I'd like to point something out. It seems that some of you think that the kids in the second story were treated unfairly. While it's true that they probably weren't planning anything, you never know. Louisiana leads the country in violent crime. Plots like this are part of the daily routine there. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they meant it.

[MrSamosa]

School gas attacks... There's a neat concept, but one with its own problems. Now, if they were to get a sufficient lachrymator, even my simple jam jar Chloropicrin (it doesn't even have to be purified), dissolved it in Methylene Chloride, put it in an open soda can, and maybe hid it in a hallway, they could cause quite some terror. They wouldn't even have to worry about the moral problem of killing anyone (as chances are, they wouldn't), but it would cause such pain that it would relieve all the anger. Mass punishment without mass killing.

Remember the News shots of Columbine? The kids jumping out of the windows, running by police, crying in each others' arms... Now, imagine seeing a massive line of ambulances, with kids being treated as best they can on the sidewalk (too many casualties for the ambulances)-- red faced, blood-shot eyes, drooling, coughing incessantly, and unable to get up... See, it's very difficult to tell a mortal injury from an agent that has such drastic short-term effects, and whose fatal action is delayed up to 8 hours. All of them would have to be treated and observed. Truely nightmarish.

The problem is that most kids who are bullied have never before had violent intentions. They know little of chemicals and they just want the bullying to stop any way they can, and they will take the simplest route-- which to them is taking their father's gun to school. They wouldn't think along the lines of Chemical Weapons, because that sounds "out of the question" to them. If anything, they will run to the anarchist cookbook, a la Columbine kiddies. If this were the case, they'd probably take the bleach/acid Chlorine gas route. But even this would be sufficient, as Chlorine is also intensely painful...but they'd probably get caught. I, too, am left wondering...why hasn't this happened?

Closest thing I can think of is when in Maryland, some psychotic girlfriend-obsessed student slipped Sodium Cyanide into his friend's Coke (now, how didn't he gas himself!), and subsequently killed him. There are no restrictions on NaCN in MD. But I've also heard stories of LSD being slipped into someone's drink.

Honestly though, when I hear about these school shootings, I think, "What I waste." Why couldn't the kid just say to himself, "Let me sleep on this decision," or, "Maybe another time," or something like that. Why couldn't they just wait, and then gain some maturity, and look back and realize how stupid those dreams were?? As much as the next guy, I can testify that bullying and harrassment can be absolutely humiliating... But lately, more and more school districts are coming down on this, and they are adopting harsh policies against harrassment. Students shouldn't be afraid to "tell on" a bully...it's no more humiliating than the bullying itself, and it just might stop the problem. Never know. But why act so irrationally, and ruin so many peoples' lives, as well as your own?

[Jacks Complete]

I have to chip in.

I learnt that a shotgun is a good cure for ills, even when carried legally and openly and in the bag.

I got the shit kicked out of me at school. Every day, on and off, week after week, year after year.

I was the youngest in the year, and smart-arsed and intelligent.

I got some shit from those in my year, on occassions, but I could handle them, even when they ganged up, and the violence there was rarely brutal.

What I couldn't take was the gang beatings. Big lads, twice my size, with a taste for sadistic beatings, and at least two of them every time. Damn, I got good at rolling with the kicks, taking the punches, spotting the set-ups and subtle plots... Faking concussion was fairly easy, as I got sent to hospital with it at least a few times already. They were, to begin with, two and three years older, and at the age of twelve, that is a damned big difference. Boy, were they dumb. They failed so badly they had to stay on, unlucky for me.

I already knew which end of a gun was which, and the school had a cadet force, as well as a clay shooting team. I knew what to do.

I got quite good. But what gave me the biggest boost, was that I knew, whatever happened, two days a week there would be nothing but verbal, and I could handle that. Somewhere in the dim recesses of the empty containers they were supposed to have their brains in, was a little flag that said, "Not today... If he snaps today he can kill you...". I never said anything, and I didn't have to.

A few years later, and I was one of the older kids. Still had the odd problem with kids in my year, but I could handle most of them mentally and physically. In a fair(ish) fight, I didn't mind nearly as much. Two on one, whatever, it was fine. Obviously not my first choice, but, not so bad, because I had that control over it. I could just fight my way out the room, or whatever.

But when you are 12, and tied to a chair, being beaten by rote for a few hours (yes, right through lessons! That's the beauty of these posh old schools with dorms and study rooms) is truely terror.

Those fuckers deserve to die slowly and painfully, knowing why, and who.

But I ain't bitter. It turned me into the man I am today. I don't dream of them any more, nor even have nightmares. As someone above says, they might regret what they did now, looking back. I doubt it though. They didn't think then, and I doubt they have aged well.

If it was my son, I would believe him, and I would make someone pay.

It might not be nice.

[gliper]

Just because we haven't heard of school poisoning dosen't mean it hasen't happened if it takes any time it wouden't be remotly clear where it came from in fact quite often it diagnosed as a normal pathogen like flu.

[Saul]

I've never had really any problems with bullies in school, since I live in a land with not too crazy (only dumb) people. But, as been noticed by the US psychiatrists, half of Yanks "suffer of mental illness" or whatever... not to annoy all you yanks out there.

Bullying is a good also: Suicides made by those who couldn't take the bullying on themselves help preventing overpopulation (in a minor way, but hey: all of the help is needed :D ). Those who don't kill themselves are stronger in future, and make good soldiers or terrorists, whichever you prefer most. In future, they'll be the ones ridding the world of too many people.

But since that's a minor profit, it'd be better to prevent it (no sh*t!?)

Second best way I know to stop bullying (best is disposing of the bullies, of course) is to make them fear you in the way Jack's Complete wrote. A bit of psychotic behaviour never hurts you. It might also earn you some respect (or distance to others, like I have even today).


(Sorry for anything, it's my first post in roguesci.org forum)

[Cyclo_Knight]

When I was a freshman in highschool, there was a kid named "C. Petrovich" who used to give me hell everyday! I would get pushed into lockers, have my money stolen, and get my ass kicked on the way home. I remember the last time he ever bullied me.

I was walking home from school, and him and his two cronies started following me, after about 2 minutes they came up and started hasseling me. Petrovich opened my backpackand then his friend poured his 7-11 slurpie in my bag when i turned around. After that i ran home while they laughed, and vowed revenge.

(this next part is theoretical of course) ;)
During the night I got my paint can filled with Powdered AN and a gallon jug of Nitromethane. After I prepared The ANNM, I made a det of 1/2 film can of RDX and 1/2 of AP. I Stuck in a 9 foot fuse, capped it up, and disposed of my Excess Nitromethane. I wiped off any prints with alcohol and put on my latex gloves as i walked to his house. 10 minutes later I arrived(The time was 1:36) am, and dug a shallow hole for the can about a foot deep in his front yard. I firmly inserded the can and det, and carefully lit the 9 foot fuse and RAN! 5 minutes later I was in my room , and I thought i heard a thud, but i could have been imagining it. (I have detonated larger amounts and I don't think I would have heard those from that far away!)

About 5 minutes later, I heard sirens coming that lasted for hours. The next day he was absent and I thought"Oh my god, what if I killed him!)" The whole school was talking about how someone had blown up his house as all that crap. Of course i kept my mouth shut...

On monday he was back, apparently little worse for the wear. I overheard him talking, and I had apparently blown a nice little crater in his front lawn. The Police thought that it was a case of mistaken identity, like a gang warning or something!

On my way home that day he reappeared again, his usual self...he tauntingly asked my how I did on thursdays homework. I whirled and faced him and he said "What you gonna do you little pussy?! Even The Kryps and Bloods couldent hurt me!" I paused and said slowly and calmly: "Ill put the next bomb under your bed." He stopped walking and stuttered stupidly"wh...wh...wha?" I just turned and walked calmly away.

The next day the school officer came to visit my first hour and we went to his office where there were two other officers and the Principal. He asked me a few bomb related questions, and I aswered them like an idiot ("duhhhh, Amonum Nitrulate...whats dat?") He soon dismissed me and I was never questioned again!

Needless to say I never got shit from Petrovich again either!

[Saul]

Good man! :D That's a great example of taking action instead of whining to teachers and such... and you'll be great help for your kids!

[Rhadon]

Cyclo_Knight, you have to shorten your signature to three lines.

[robinhood1532]

All right, apologies for bringing up an old topic, but this seemed to be the most appropriate place to put this. The latest in school-related bull is the suspension of a young man for simply sketching a pistol.

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Aug22/0,4670,BRFGunSketchSuspension,00.html

The school actually related the drawing to the Columbine shootings! If I were that boy’s parents, I’d sue the school for suppressing their child’s “artistic tendencies” or some other crap like that.

For me, this article conjures images from some cartoon someone posted on the forum depicting a world that had “banned everything” (did Jello Biafra originally coin that phrase?)

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Talking to the school shrink would have been out of the question.The American Psychiatric Association is a charter member of the
old Handgun Control Inc. Any doctor/patient confidentiality would
probably go out the window

This is absolutely correct. In the US there IS NO doctor-patent confidentiality regarding what may be subjectively considered to be issues concerning harm to self or others.

As for bullying I remember that it went on in my day. Some more intense than others in some areas. But I personally did imagine doing some rather destructive things to those who bullied me. What I finally did would have gotten me put in a youth detention facility for a long time, if done in the present.

My son got kicked out of a school for having a pair of scissors (for a REAL art project - blunt ones) - no exaggeration. He was "invited" to talk to the regional "Doctor". He knew well enough not to open his mouth and all was well.

It's quite sad when a father has to advise his son that those there to help him are untrustworthy. But my son trusted me to tell him the truth and generally I always have.

"What do you think I should do?" - "Shut up and play it off: they will burn you if you're open and honest with them"....... fucking sad commentary.