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Flake2m
January 16th, 2004, 01:33 AM
Just another example of why 12 years olds shouldn't be allowed near a computer without adult supervision. I got this from a PC magazine.

"If anyone reading this is considering on going on a rampage and killing teachers and fellow students at their school, they should take a leaf from Freddy Fan's book. This American 12 year old posted on a public forum that he was going to kill teachers and students in his school the following day, stating "I'm going to kill my teacher tomorrow and a lot of of other people in my school. I'll probaly kill a lot of people." When challenged on his claim in some of the responses, Fab replied, writing "Guys I am not kidding around. I am serious. If they blame it on the horror movies I'll tel them that horror movies had nothing to do with this. I won't be in deep shit because I'll be killing everybody who stands in my way. If I get killed then I'll be happy with that."
Unsurprisingly the police took note, found the identity of the boy from his ISP and now have him in custody after finding a hunting knife in his school bag."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA[Falls off chair laughing]HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
This Kid should be locked up for making empty threats. He'd have to be Rambo if he think we can kill a school full of people with a hunting knife and lets not forget; Police have guns not knives.

EP
January 16th, 2004, 02:02 AM
I read a few weeks ago, I even saw the thread on the forum he posted it in... That kid is definetly a dumbass. (the forum was one on horror movies if anyone is wondering what the movie quote is about) I can look for the site, but it was a while ago...

Speakle
January 16th, 2004, 02:36 AM
What is the deal with killing people in schools lately? There was something in the news the other day about 2 kids being arrested because they had plans and everything about taking hostage and killing most of a school here. This was 2 dumbasses who's classmates said they were just crying for attention because they were not very popular. I myself have a 3 year old son and am quite nervous about his highschool days. When I was in school (not very long ago) this sort of thing was never heard of.

EP
January 16th, 2004, 03:17 AM
No reason to be too worried about something like that actually happening, it's statistically VERY unlikely. You should be more worried about your kid eating right and actually learning in school. Sorry if that sounds like a lecture...

IDTB
January 16th, 2004, 06:57 AM
Perhaps it should be "Idiot of the Week" because dumbasses like this are too frequent. You really have to be a highschool student to understand why there's so much violence in highschool. I could write a really large article about it, but it's mostlikely of no interest.

Speakle
January 16th, 2004, 12:15 PM
I understand why. It just seems to me that this sort of thing is too well known now. 5 years ago something like this would have been a huge shock and 10 years ago it was completely unheard of. At some point in time the violence in school became all too common news. Watching the news and hearing that some kid got shot in school is not much of a surprise anymore which is a shame.

xyz
January 16th, 2004, 08:47 PM
I blame nigger rap... :p

Seriously though, I wonder if nigger rap fits the definitions of an infectious disease? If not it's probably pretty damn close.

Speakle
January 16th, 2004, 09:31 PM
I guess its a possibility with some people but it just doesnt make sense. I mean how can someone be so easily drawn into such a stupid lifestlye. You would have to have no common sense and be very impressionable to let something as simple as music dictate the way you live your life.

peterthesmart
January 16th, 2004, 09:36 PM
It's nice to see the kids putting in some planning and even telling people about it, but its not really necessary. Its just hard getting the weapons I would assume. Take a look at a school today, almost no security devices. No metal detectors, xray machines, any of that stuff. If the kid is really mad enough, why doesnt he just go do it.

chemwarrior
January 16th, 2004, 09:45 PM
Lets hope he doesnt do it because he has a bit of sanity left...

This is rather disturbing as there are numerous people in my school who give me the impression of "lets kill all these people! We'll be famours!"... and I have to deal with those morons for the next next year and a half....

Blackhawk
January 16th, 2004, 09:51 PM
Yes, you kill all the people and be famous as some of the youngest people to be given a life term of man fucking Buba rape, smart thinking you smoothe criminals :P. There is really no gun violence to speak of here, I'm not sure if a child has ever been shot and killed purposly at school by another student in my state, we certainly don't have nearly as much security as US schools, no metal detectors, no searches, no security guards etc.

Sparky
January 17th, 2004, 01:45 AM
Ahh, highschool. Primary school too. It can be horrible being a kid. In fact, me and my friends have made a sort of pact to remember what we went through in the school system. All too often I see parents who just send their children off to the same fate, placing blind trust in the system to bring up their kids. They seem to think that it worked for them, and it can work for their children. I think they selectively forget what it's like because they do not want to face the fact that the same sort of thing is happening to their kids. They delude themselves into thinking that it is for their children’s own good and that school really isn't so bad. I have thought about the issue for many, many hours by now. Time and again the only conclusion I come to is this:


The issue of a school system and childhood is very complex. As far as I can see it's not really possible to make a blanket statement about it that will apply to everyone, and have one big solution. All I know is that I remember the living hell it can inflict upon students. The simple, unescapable and obvious mental anguish the entire school experience causes. I conclude that something that causes so much pain has something very, very wrong with it. What to do about it is something I have many ideas on but no solid answer.


Childhood, and being a young teenager can be a horrible time. Such, Such Were the Joys by George Orwell had me nodding my head in agreement a lot. From what I have observed, many adults tend to think of childhood as an innocent time when children don't have to worry about anything. Maybe for some lucky few this is true. When I was young, there was really nothing for me to worry about. But the school system ruined that. They created the illusion that I had to do well or I would fail in life. So I worked my ass off, despite how much I hated it. And the times I wasn't doing school work there was a nagging sensation in the back of my mind that I should be. This effectively ruined the free time that I did have. A perpetual sense of "I'm just taking a break, an will be back to school soon" haunted me. This is where school is different from a nine to 5 job. There is no getting away from it because the homework is always there. It tends to consume one's entire life if one isn't careful. The haunting sense I was talking about is like when you wake up early and are just dozing, in the back of your mind you know that you must wake up completely soon. In this same way there was the thought that I should be doing homework, but (at good times) I reasoned that I could afford to postpone it until later. The only way to temporarily eradicate this feeling was to lose myself in something, usually a fictional book. As the work load increased and my free time decreased these 'vacations' unavoidably ended up in me feeling that I had just procrastinated and now I was more screwed than ever in terms of time to get the stuff done. The ironic part is of course that (I now realize) early grades are really quite useless, even more so than later (pre-grade 11) grades. I could have slacked off, been happy, mellowed out and enjoyed my childhood. The only conflict might have been my parents might have minded a bit (there you go another source of imaginary pressure or at least pressure without due cause) but I’m not even sure about that. I could have had a good time even learned something useful.

The whole point of doing well at all this school stuff was of course to get into a good university. I had always thought that the marks from earlier grades were not really what the universities looked at, but the doubt that this was true drove me to apply myself in these earlier grades anyways. Besides, I reasoned that this doing well in earlier grades would help me when it really mattered. In a way it did, but only really from grade 7 on. School stresses too much that you have to prepare for next year, when really it is quite similar to the year before. The truth (it seems) that I can see now is that the only purpose these grades serve is to prepare you for grade 12, who’s grades get you into university. I think that taking my time and working on things that really mattered I would be far better prepared than doing what I did and following what the teacher says to do.

Going back to the unescapable point, I believe it is this aspect of school that leads to suicide. If you've ever experienced the amazing sense that school inflicts, of being forced to do something, then it is probably quite obvious why high school students kill themselves. There simply seems like no other option. Personally I am not dead because I have always thought that I might as well give it one last shot. If things really turn out shitty then it's time to crank up the old CO and have a nap. Death is the last resort. I think some people jump the gun though. Probably because the sense of having no other options is even more built up than mine. I have, like most people, read various articles and such about suicide. They all tend to talk about how the mother never loved their son, or whatever. These things are probably contributing factors, but IME probably not the main source. Nothing that I have yet read has me going "Ya, I totally know what you mean". I’m guessing this is because such articles are written by people long since out of touch with what it was like to be a teenager. I think people off themselves because it would be because it simply seems there is no other reasonable option to improve their experience, and as-is it is not worth living. In other words, it’s the only way out of their current suffering. Attempted suicide could also be a (far less sure) way out and I do think there is some credibility to the “cry for help” theory about attempted (and usually badly botched) suicide.

While I’m thinking about it I’ll just take a moment to complain about the current band-aid solution so common today. Terrorists are killing people, so try to prevent them from getting weapons. Students are committing suicide, so have a seminar and send some to a psychologist or psychiatrist. Students are killing other students so have metal detectors in the schools. All of these things have something in common; they are trying to suppress the symptom of a larger problem (I’m not saying the cause of terrorism is the same as student suicide though ;)). It’s like having a painful infection, so you take pain killers. This only suppresses the symptom, the underlying cause remains and it will only get worse and worse until you cannot suppress it any more.

Maybe the problem with school is that there is just so damn much of it. 6 hours a day, 5 days a week plus encountable homework. If one likes it (pff, ya right) it's dandy. But as soon as it becomes a negative thing then it can easily become the absolute bane of one's life.

ibuprofen
January 17th, 2004, 02:21 AM
"they are trying to suppress the symptom of a larger problem (I’m not saying the cause of terrorism is the same as student suicide though "

Hmm.. sometimes it is, though. Bullying, a feeling of underrepresentation and exploitation and powerlessness in both cases leads to desparate measures. From your language I am assuming (?) you are not in the US (we say 12th grade, not grade 12 usually). I never felt that kind of pressure to perform. Granted, I was generally smarter than most people the whole time and everything was pretty easy for me, so I never did the homework and never cared, and therefore a lot of people (who had to work hard) hated and bullied me. I would venture to say the pressure you felt was likely more from (or perceived to be from) your parents rather than the school system itself. I did not feel such pressure or nagging in the back of my head at all, except when I really was putting something off that I should have been doing.

There was also the issue of social acceptance, for example, in even my elementary school there were distinct social strata based on one's leisure activities, wardrobe, athletic ability, etc., and from there it just got worse. This was a much greater pressure on me than academic concerns during that period of my life and I have a feeling for those who feel like I did it is the more likely source of feelings that they would like to terrorize their fellow students and have a brief feeling of power while going out in a blaze of glory.

I never understood it though, how people thought killing anyone who happened to be around made them powerful. I always wished I could somehow get back at those who had wronged or disrespected me, but had no ill will toward the other regular students in the school. It's a far stretch from hating those who bully you to hating everyone else in the whole world enough to kill them all that I think parents should have plenty of time to catch it and it is their responsibility to do so.

Anthony
January 17th, 2004, 07:51 AM
The big difference between school and a 9-5 job was something I became painfully aware of too.

I think one of the big problems for teenagers is that they lack the coping skills that are needed when shit happens. Those skills have to be learned the hard way, and it takes time.

fire vs. water
January 17th, 2004, 09:12 AM
This doesn't really have to do with the subject of killing people, but certainly an idiot...:

movie of idiots (http://pya.cc/pyaimg/img/2003122514.wmv)

Dave Angel
January 17th, 2004, 09:39 AM
Heh, those kewls were last months idiots, look for the thread kewls on tape. It's still funny to watch, in a sadistic kinda way...

CommonScientist
January 17th, 2004, 10:00 PM
"He'd have to be Rambo if he think we can kill a school full of people with a hunting knife and lets not forget; Police have guns not knives." - Never ever bring a knife to a gunfight, its just common sense. A lil off subject but arnt schools like perfect paintball feilds? You have a lot of cover to deal with , and its not as boring as a corn feild or a woods. I would prefer it, everyone could get dressed in swat uniforms. Typical 12 year old, gets mad at his teacher and says he is gonna kill him/her. Isnt that why they have couselers?

NightStalker
January 18th, 2004, 12:52 AM
Never ever bring a knife to a gunfight, its just common sense.


On the contrary, at close range a knife is superior to a gun.

No noise, no jamming or need to reload, cheap and infinitely disposable, no ballistics to match, etc. Oh, and you can draw and stab several times with a knife in the time it'd take to draw and fire one round from the gun. Knives can cut at any angle, while guns can only kill what's in a direct line with the barrel.

Amthony:


The big difference between school and a 9-5 job was something I became painfully aware of too.


Which is better? School or the 9-5 job?

Blackhawk
January 18th, 2004, 01:03 AM
"Oh, and you can draw and stab several times with a knife in the time it'd take to draw and fire one round from the gun."
Thats a bit of a general statement, I think I could shoot more often per second with even a semi-auto pistol than you could stab, remove and re-stab a big chunk of meat, and this isn't even factoring in burst fire and full auto weaponry.

apathyboy
January 18th, 2004, 02:10 AM
Actually, since it's the exact same movement, drawing a holstered gun would take the same time as pulling a knife. Also, if I was in a real hurry, and you were close, I could start shooting once the gun was aimed at your legs (~45 degrees?) and let the recoil bring the gun up, negating any advantage you might have from pulling the knife and slashing in the same movement. A bullet in the thigh or shin would probably make you drop the knife, and if it didn't, it would definitly slow you down enough for me to pump the other 10 rounds into your torso. Really, the only deciding factor would be reaction time.

And that's only if you were a couple of feet away and pulled a knife on me. Now imagine I'm armed with a pistol and you, covered in blood and waving a hunting knife, charge at me. Do you really think you could cover any resonable distance before I got my gun up?

Knives only work if they're pointed at the target too, or slashing at about 10 degrees to the plane of the blade itself, not any angle. They also need to be moved a considerable distance, whereas a trigger finger only has to twitch half an inch.

Hence the saying "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight."

NightStalker
January 18th, 2004, 04:21 AM
Tueller Drill (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Tueller+Drill%22&btnG=Google+Search&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8):

Two people, one armed with a holstered gun, the other a knife in hand, face each other at 7 yards.

On signal, knife attacks gun.

Better than 80% of the time, knife "kills" gun. In this drill, if gun shoots knife as knife "stabs" gun, gun loses. All ties are loses for gun.

Fat, old, drunk...don't matter. Almost anyone, regardless of physical condition, can cross 7 yards faster than even trained cops can draw and fire off one shot.

Times recorded for mock assailants to reach the defenders from the Tueller standard of 21 feet (7 yards) is sub two seconds, and this even held for a man with a cast on his leg (yea, that gives you 2 seconds to draw from concealment and stop the attacker), or you can look to newer research conducted by law enforcement trainers that says maybe 21 feet is too short.

They state that physiologically, a human being can still have up to 14 seconds of movement after a perfectly placed heart shot before they would stop. 14 seconds equals up to 70 yards the person could cover after being shot.

This is why cops are (supposed) to talk to suspects from distance, or with barriers (like cars) between them and potential assailants.

Get a copy of Cold Steels "More Proof" DVD's for graphic demonstrations of how destructive steel is to flesh, and how quickly it can do so.

How quickly can you pump your arm 12"? (No jokes, either! ;) :p)

I can do it at least three times a second for a few seconds.

I could swiss-cheese your neck in the blink of an eye. :)

Blackhawk
January 18th, 2004, 04:54 AM
Yes but that involves the person with the weapon pulling the gun from concealment. If I were a cop I wouldn't enter a hostile area with my gun in it's holster, it would be drawn, and pointing at where I would expect trouble to be comming from, then of course I have my knife proof vest and 10 other swat buddies with riot shields and shotguns to back me up. Attaching with a knife isn't feasible in this sort of situation, you will die if you try it, that simple. It would be very different if the group was unarmed however, although if you pull a knife in say, a plane, nowdays you will be swarmed by a no-holds-barred cabin full of people that know that the only chance they have is if they kill you no matter what. Times have changed, after a lot of manical school killings people simply don't expect to survive in 'terrorist' situations, and will therefore attack you without fear, and there is nothing more dangerous than a person who isn't affraid of death in a conflict.

Sparky
January 18th, 2004, 11:55 AM
I'm fairly sure people who go on such rampages never intend to live through it, and they certainly don't expect to be able to kill cops. That Tueller drill is very interesting, and shows just how close is "close". But, even though gun "loses" since a tie makes him lose, he probably usually gets one shot off, right? And just like the knifer will not stop when shot, gun can respond once stabbed and is much more able to than someone who has been shot. Also, does gun have to stay still? From martial arts, there is a series of kicks which are used in just this sort of situation - someone is coming at you and is not going to be able to stop in time (called step back kicks in Karate but I'm sure they exist in other martial arts). Could be crudely described as someone running into your foot. IMO they are simple, fast and just what the doctor ordered in this situation. Surely cops have similar techniques. Basically what I'm saying is that a normal cop is not a dolt (or at least cannot be counted on to be one), and they can do more than one thing at once.

The point is the soft, fleshy populace of the school (without even knives) is a relatively easy target and one would have lots of time with them before the police arrived. That being said I also think a knive might be rather uneffective. You're bound to get some football (or rugby ;)) guy tackling the knife wielder. Shit, anyone wearing winter gloves could probably grab the knife (and otherwise the hand holding the knife) and make life hard for the attacker. Especially if the knife is in the usual blunt state people keep their knives in, it would be grabbable. I wouldn't be surprised if someone picked up a chair (or maybe desk) and smacked the knifer around with it.

If the attacker has training in knife fighting, then that's a different matter. But that's not very likely. It's far more likely that students in the school will be trained in martial arts. Either generally or even have more advanced training to specifically disarm a knife wielding attacker. That or just be freaking built like some people in my school. Obviously the knifer would be vastly outnumbered. Gunners rely on people being afraid enough to not rush them, and there is good reason to be afraid. But a knife just doesn't carry that fear with it because it's simply not as good.

Since we're not really allowed guns in Canada, knives are by far the preffered street weapon here. I'm not talking about hunting knives either, but some quite fancy looking things that are intended to kill effectively.

BTW I see some interesting responses to my rant, which I intend to respond to but have no time to do so right now.

Crow
January 19th, 2004, 07:50 PM
Our school recently (this year) posted a police officer in our school. He is there the entire day, but there is still only one of him and this is the largest highschool in the state. Having a police officer around in a large building doesnt really scare many people into order. He basically just breaks up fights, and looks pretty with his Elvis hair style and only responding to Officer. P Rod. I really don't see a way to stop kids from wanting to harm others in a school setting. Kids get teased on and they want to fight back, and face it, nothing solves problems faster than a gun. This is why I hate children, even though technically I am one, I still hate them.

crackedchemist
January 19th, 2004, 08:49 PM
HaHa the high school around my town has an "officer" too. All his job is is to bust people for drugs at the middle school. Or at least thats what he did to me a couple times. He's suppossed to patrol the high schools parking lot too. But its easier to steal stuff out of cars there then it is any where else in my town. It kinda sucks to have him there too because he doesnt need to follow the same rules as a reall cop so he can pretty much do whatever he wants. Stupid cock nocker wanna be cop.....

xyz
January 19th, 2004, 09:14 PM
My school also has a school police officer. I don't think they do much good though.

There was a school shooting in the US where the school cop was shot dead when he tried to stop it. One cop with a glock doesn't do too well against 2 students, one with a sawn off shotgun and one with an M-1 Carbine. He didn't even wound either of them.

CommonScientist
January 19th, 2004, 11:25 PM
Lousy cops. There isnt a cop in our school, but there isnt a lot of fighting at all, there hasnt been any reports of someone bringing a gun to school for the years i have been in it. A kid in 5th grade brought in some bags filled with gas and a weed eater engine. They found him and his lil weapons of arson, as he was going to attempt to burn down my school. How he got the gas to stay in the bags, I dunno but he is in the DH now. Stuipid,imature kids. But hey, we were all one at some point right? How many of us read the anarchist crapbook when we were young? Honestly thats how I got started in pyrotechnics, but I never tryied anything in it though. I used the faithful internet to correct my wrongness. Lesson learned.

NightStalker
January 20th, 2004, 05:25 AM
Knifes are psychologically much more terrifying weapons than guns.

In the book "On Killing" by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, he details how rare bayonet (knife) kills are in combat because of the inevitable fact that the person on the receiving end either flees or surrenders before they can be skewered.

The thought of a steel blade sliding into your guts is much more terrifying and real than the abstract concept of a bullet doing the same thing.

Everyone has been cut, much fewer have been shot.

BTW, there's no such thing as a "knife-proof" vest. There are stab resistant vests, but those are mostly confined to prison guards, since they don't (usually) risk being shot by inmates. Street cops wear BULLET resistant vests that are NOT resistant to knives, since they're much more concerned with being shot.

Any steep angled blade, like a stilleto or tanto, will penetrate a ballistic vest if stabbed hard enough, unless it hits a hardplate insert (rare). Arrows, icepicks, and shivs will easily slide through the vest fibers and into the body behind it.


Shit, anyone wearing winter gloves could probably grab the knife (and otherwise the hand holding the knife) and make life hard for the attacker.


Again, the Cold Steel DVD graphically demonstrates the stupidity of trying this with a decent knife. Leather and kevlar gloves filled with pork rib "fingers" are cut clean off the broomstick "hand" with a single whack. Grabbing the blade means getting your fingers cut to the bone, cutting the ligaments that hold the hand shut in the process, thus releasing the gripl

People underestimate blades nowadays because of guns. Remember, blades have killed as many people as guns have throughout human history, and much more painfully.

As to the likelyhood of some jock trying something heroic against a knife...let's just say jocks aren't known for their intelligence. ;)

Jock makes his move, gets blade buried in belly, jock screams like little bitch and curls up in a fetal ball on the ground while trying to hold his intestines in his gutted belly...think anyone else is going to try? No matter how buff you are, or how big a "six pack" stomach you have, steel slices and dices too quickly and easily for flesh to stand against.

As for "martial arts" amoung the students...HAHAHAHAHAAA!....that that's a non-issue too.

How many of these "karate kids" have learned an actual MARTIAL ART?

"Martial Arts" is the study of the skills of WARRIORS, of WAR and KILLING.

The shit they teach kids in the McDojo down at the local mall is NOT a MARTIAL ART! It's an hour of babysitting to keep the brats out of the parents hair while hopefully instilling some respect for authority in the little shits.

If the kid was being taught Martial Arts like the children of samurai warriors were taught Martial Arts, then you'd have something to worry about.

But the McDojo punk will go for some fancy windmill kick that ends with his kick being cut short by a blade in the scrotum or a cut down to the femur bone, like slicing the christmas ham, from the kid who spent an hour reading "Kill or Get Killed" off of the Marines website or some other H2H manual readily available on the web.

A couple hours practice with a knife will make a person armed with a knife more lethal than a person with several years of MA training, simply because a blade is much more destructive to flesh than even the hardest kick. A light touch with a blade can sever tendons and cripple a limb.

Even trained MA professionals routinely get "cut" (by chalk knives) in demonstrations against people picked out of the crowd at MA demonstrations.

What hope does some McDojo brat stand against someone armed with REAL steel and a REAL intent to kill? None.

Also, the knife can be taped into the hand and the arm greased to make disarming attempts not only impossible, but suicidal. Even with a broken arm, the attacker can still kill, because he CAN'T let go of the weapon, regardless of the pain or damage inflicted to the weapon arm.

And if you think taping and greasing improbable...Google. It's common practice amoung prisoners and gang-bangers. Any half-assed research by a future killer would pull up more than enough information for him to constitute a lethal threat to anyone not armed and TRAINED in the use of a firearm.

Flake2m
January 20th, 2004, 08:10 AM
Like everything all weapons, the damage that a knife can do is limited by the skill of the user. A drunk man with a knife is going to be easier to disable then a fully alert man.

There are specific techniques for use against people with knives. Ju Jitsu and Taek wan do are just a few of the martial arts that teach these techniques.