Legality

[ScaredKewlNoob]

What kind of licensing is necessary in the u.s. to legally manufacture explosives?

[Skean Dhu]

you're kidding me right? a one-line question....
anywho you need a license from the BATF , and if you consider pursuing this hobby its not worth it. $200 to get it and then $100 annual to renew it plus the chance that some BATF croney will do a random check on you to make sure you have your explosives stored correctly(proper magazines , proper distance from living quarters and from themselves) and of course they will stop by at the most inopportune(sp?) time. but seriously UTFSE it would have taken you a whole 5 min to go to the BATF site and then view the requirements for the license

[Bert]

ScaredKewlNoob-

Go to the Federal Explosives Law and Regulations (http://www.atf.gov/explarson/fedexplolaw/index.htm) page and look under sub parts "D" & "E". There are several different licenses depending on what you intend to manufacture. You will need to arrange for proper magazine storage to get a license as well- It's all in the "orange book". Read it and then ask specific questions, OK?

Skean Dhu-
The stupidest question is the one you didn't ask. The checks you mentioned will all occur BEFORE they even grant you a license. Afterwards, they will check you out occasionally. Such things as making sure you're keeping records, your magazine isn't falling apart, there's no brush or grass too close that could catch fire and take out your magazine- I know PLENTY of hobbyists who have done what it takes to be legal. Yes, it costs a few hundred to several thousands of dollars to become legal. The price of being busted for NOT being legal will always be considerably higher. It cost us about $10,000.00 for everything to become legal, but we're running a fireworks display business and needed to fit out quite a large magazine. People who only need a small indoor magazine they can make themselves, like the composite rocket hobbyist who just wants to make a few fuel grains for reloadable motors can do it for under $500.00 usually-

[Dave Angel]

Speaking of legalities, I couldn't find dinitronapthalene on the ATF list of explosives compiled in 2002. This suggests to me that one could make as much DNN as one wanted and not be at risk from the law. Only when one wanted to use some, it would be given it's final nitration treatment to TeNN or used as part of a composition (then becoming illegal without a permit).

[Bert]

Read the heading of the list more carefully (http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:PlmNu2VvA98J:www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/listofexp.htm+%22list+of+explosive+materials%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) While the list is comprehensive, it is not all inclusive. The fact that an explosive material may not be on the list does not mean that it is not within the coverage of the law if it otherwise meets the statutory definitions in section 841 of title 18, U.S.C.

If the substance can be set off by a #8 cap, it's automatically included whether or not they called it out specifically. Anyone know if 2g of PETN will initiate it? That's their "standard" equivalent for a #8.

[Dave Angel]

Ah, and there was me thinking I could just skim read the list, maybe a moderately humorous cynical rephrase of that heading is in order:

"We've written a list of all the explosives we found in our Junior Encyclopedia of Science but we just can't keep up with the revolutionary new explosive designs thought up in The Forum, so the list is just for show really. You aren't allowed to own anything we don't like the sound of. So there!"

Anyway, in the dinitronapthalene thread Hystrix gave this data for pure dinitronapthalene:

"VoD is 1150 m/s @ 1 g/ccm and it gives 100 ml in Trautzl's test."

Other members have highlighted that it is difficult to detonate alone and so is often used in compositions.

I assume if it cannot be detonated by a #8 cap or equivalent then one does not have to worry about legalities? After all, AN can be detonated straight with enough booster and you don't need a license for that...

...yet. (Austrialians)

[Efraim_barkbit]

"$10,000.00"- One million dollars? Ten thousand point zero zero dollars?

I hate when people use commas and/or points when writing numbers (if its not used as a decimal point). WHY CONFUSE IT?

Sure, most of the time its clear what is meant anyways, but I find it about equally annoying as posts wich have been written without capitalization.

[chemwarrior]

Its ten thousand. One million would have been- $1,000,000.00

[Bert]

Efraim_barkbit-

I have followed the common conventions for denoting an ammount of US currency- Sorry if it's not immediately transparent.

Yes, ten thousand US Dollars... That covered licenses, buying, shipping and setting in place a couple of 40' high cube cargo containers, lining with wood, epoxy painting any metal that couldn't be covered with wood, building shelveing, fabricating and installing locking devices, earth moving to create a site, several truckloads of gravel for the pad and a short access ramp, timbers to prevent settling & keep them off the ground, and rent paid in advance for the physical site for a couple of years. If we'd had to buy the land it would have been a lot more. The license is generaly the LEAST of your expenses.

Dave Angel-

Re-read sub part "B" again... It also says it's included if it's INTENDED USE is for a blasting agent. That's how come a farmer doesn't have to keep his AN fertilizer in a magazine but a blaster does.

And it looks like the standard cap is different for the definition of blasting agent as well! I'm going to have to re-read this again myself. I know my way around the fireworks part pretty well-

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers"

[Dave Angel]

Now I remember why I hate laws: subsections, clauses, terms and definitions etc etc, it's not the law itself, it's the way they are laid out. I might have guessed that they have every angle covered some how, thanks for reading up on it Bert, I think I'll stick to reading chemistry.

I'd still like to see if pure DNN would be legally classified as an explosive, though they probably have a 'subsection 23, paragraph A' bit saying that it is. Somewhere.

[Skean Dhu]

Bert while I agree that it will be cheaper to be legal and get searched rather than illegal and searched . Certainly if you're going to create public displays and store massive amounts of fire works you want to be on the legal side. However the general population of the forum wishs to use HE's for rather 'questionable' reasons and I'm guessing that if you plan to use anything that you are storing in your magazine you will have to/ would want to clear it with your sheriff since loud booms this day and age don't go unnoticed.

Now I'm not saying it isn't a bad idea to get everything ship-shape but if you're only planning on making a few grams here and there with the ocasional kg sized charge it just dosen't seem worth it., and if the shit hits the fan who do you think will be one of the first people contacted with questions about a window rattling boom? even if you had nothing to do with it.

Also the rocket hobbyist need only apply for licensing if the rocket grain is going to be greater than 62grams
When I read the forms they didn't go into detail about who to contact should you actually wish to use the contents of your magazine. I assume you would just talk to the local PD and FD. Perhaps you would know since you seem to have connections of some sort with a fireworks/blasting company

I in no way wish to imply that it was a stupid question, it is just one that could have easily been answered had he taken a couple minutes to search the web.

[Bert]

Yeah, I know- Most people here will never really feel the need to get fully legal, in fact it would take away some of the fun for many. But the guy DID specificaly ask what he'd have to do to be manufacturing legaly-

You just haven't experienced the full range untill you've told a bunch of cops and firemen what THEY should be doing while YOU shoot explosives. Mwahahahaha!

[Skean Dhu]

Now that could be a payoff after spending $500.
*dreamy fade in*
Fourth of July launching 2"shells, roman candles, and various other "small" fireworks. The Cops pull up to bitch at you and then you slam your BATF licnese in their face
*pictures 'Good will hunting scene"*
you: "Do you like apples officer?"
officer:"..... yea, i guess so..."
you:" how do you like them apples"*whips out paperwork*

Although I doubt it would go like that but hey, wouldn't it be great if it did.
So I was correct in assuming that you have to tell them your gonna be blowing shit up ?

::EDIT:: grammar

[Bert]

It depends on where. In some states, you have to get a permit for each event (usualy from the municipality or county), in some you have to show proof of insurance as well. Insurance is EXPENSIVE.

[Anthony]

There are far fewer public fireworks displays in this country due to rising insurance costs. All thanks to no-win-no-fee, "where there's blame, there's a claim!" litigation.

[Bert]

Up to $10,000.00 1.3 shows are somewhere between $600.00 - $1,000.00 just for the insurance. For an over $10,000.00 cost show the insurance varies with the size of the show & setting. We're looking at starting a "captive insurance" (industry owned, not for profit) just for the pyrotechnic industry.

[Blackhawk]

Insurance is the big problem we are having at the rocketry club we attend, seeing as the whole 'fast moving, scary noise and flame' thing spooks a lot of companies into charging insane prices. There has never been a death from commercial rocketry (I think anyway) and there has never been an injury at our club, and yet they would try and charge us more than motorbike or car insurance, which is a hell of a lot more dangerous.

[Bert]

After we kill all the lawyers, let's start stringing up the insurance executives...

[Flake2m]

Insurance prices are becoming rediculous. If I got 5c for every joke that was made about insurance prices I would have enough money to pay for a premium.
The surf club I use to go to, rock climbing, rocketry and sailing have become out of my reach partly because the membership fees are so high. So now I just on my ass downloading pr0n and warez.

No wonder Australian and American kids are getting so fat.