Reloading 26.5mm

[A-BOMB]

I just bought a 26.5mm HK M78 flare gun and a bunch of ?czech? smoke flares, I fired one and removed the primer and measured it. Its .257" across and about .14" tall its a boxer primer I cant seem to find a US standard primer that would fit. So since its from Europe I was wondering if some of our European members can help me find some primers for these cases so I can reload the cases, thanks. Damn! some of these flares have some major recoil.

[Wes80]

Cant help with what you have asked for, but .257" is the diametre of most .25cal bullets, therefore if you cant aquire the real thing, ream out a .25cal bullet and use the jacket as a sheath by drilling the lead to fit a standard sized boxer primer. you could also use full copper bullets for strength (such as barnes X).

[Third_Rail]

I've tried to reload "Czech" flares as well, but I'm still questioning where they're really from. I noticed, however, that the flares are the same size as 4 gauge shotgun shells, aren't they? Hm. Anyway, I couldn't get anything to work properly, I don't believe the flares were ever intended to reload.

Oh, and could you tell me, if you're from the US, who you got the flare pistol off of and for how much? I'd like to see if I got ripped off in terms of price.

[zippoxiv]

The US price I see for the HK 26.5mm flare gun is about $45 at most any gun show, $35 for a box of 10 rounds. I have also experimented with reloaded the flare cartridges with minimal success. Even a large rifle primer is too small, and a standard 209 shotgun primer is too deep. If you drill through the bottom of the primer pocket, you can use the very popular and plentiful 209 shotgun primer to reload. I am not a huge fan of altering the cartridge although unless there is some other plentiful primer type to reload with 209 seems to be the best bet.

The reason I said I am having minimal success is because even with the 209 shotgun primer, it seems that the maximum distance and kick are less than the factory rounds. I have been using shot shell reloading powder (green dot double base smokeless powder to be exact) in my reloads. After taking apart one of the red flares, the powder charge weighed in at 1.18 grams. Replicating this in my own reloads still results in an underpowered charge; it seems that with the reloads all the powder does not burn before the projectile leaves the barrel. This is obvious when I fire the flare over a snowy field the shot shell powder can be seen unburned and speckled across the snow. If you have any idea as to the culprit of my underpowered loads (ha-ha, yeah immature humor) I would be interested to hear your opinions. Insufficient pressure, wrong weight projectile, etc all come to mind.

Third_Rail, what type of reloads are you dong? What size powder charge, payload, etc. I have tried quarters to some success. One inch PVC tubing persuaded with a lighter to fit into the 25mm interior provides a tight fit as well. Regardless, I am still unable to mimic the distance or kick of the factory loads.

[Third_Rail]

When I couldn't find the correct primer size, I decided it was best not to fool with them.

[A-BOMB]

I have modified all of my shell to fit a #57 shotshell primer (you won't find this type in stores, its a old type) I had the guy at the local machine shop make me a drill that drill out the primer pocket, and the outside edge so the rim of the primer fits in, The original primer are better but, shotshell primers will do if you have semi-tight fitting projectile the powder has to have enough time to burn before the projectile exits the case, Thats why there is so much packing between the flare and the end of the case. And if you want cheap flare guns check out tapco every once and awhile they had some czech/russian flare guns for $15 a while back.

[TreverSlyFox]

Zippoxiv,

The powder your using is too slow burning, that's why the residue of unburned powder and the lack of range and recoil. Check the web and see where Green Dot rates and pick a powder about 2 steps faster in burning rate.

With the new powder cut back on the charge 10-15% and "work up" to the ammount your using now just to be on the safe side. If you get to that same ammount and it still doesn't have the range step up another 1 or 2 burning rates and again back off the charge 10-15%.

[A-BOMB]

Don't use smokeless, the powder I got out of the factory rounds was like a mix of small and large grain black powder, black powder is better for large rounds like this.

[zippoxiv]

Thanks for your thoughts on the issue. It appears that drilling out the primer pocket to accept a #209 shot shell primer may be the reason that the powder is not burning. After looking into regular shot shell reloading it appears that, the type of primer and size of the flash hole both control how much pressure is exerted by the primer itself. Even varying different brands of shot shell primers can cause a difference. After comparing the distance traveled when fired at a 45-degree angle between a round with 1 gram of DBSP and one with simply a primer, the difference is negligible. (About 100 ft for each)


One solution to the primer issue that I have not had the chance to experiment with yet is filling the primer pocket with JB Weld (a cold weld epoxy, google it to find more) and then drill out a new primer pocket to fit a standard rifle or pistol primer. This would both reduce the pressure created by the primer, and reduce the size of the flash hole hopefully encouraging ignition of the powder. There is also concern when reloading 37 mm casings that only a small rifle or pistol primer should be used as the primers for shot shells are not soft enough to ensure initiation by the relatively week firing pin spring of the flare gun. This is a concern, although after inspecting the spent primers from over a dozen reloads there does not appear to be any sign of significantly shallow primer dents.

A-Bomb, I did notice that the powder inside the factory loads was not of any spherical, tubular, or flake smokeless powder I had seen before. I will pick up a can of pyrodex along with some new primers. Is it ok to use a black powder substitute such as pyrodex? Also, by the way, what loads are you reloading with; inert projectiles, flare comp, smoke comp? I was just curious.

TreverSlyFox, being that the flares appear to be basically a large gage shot shell, I assumed Green Dot would be the powder to go for. If done carefully I don’t see how it can hurt to try out a different powder along with black powder substitutes. Maybe Mr. Kaczynski chose the powder of choice when he went with Red Dot.

It seems that there are quite a few variables to test, once I have a chance to get some more supplies and some time I'll go through and try to isolate the issue. It is also possible that the weight of the projectile has an effect. A higher weight projectile produces higher pressure levels before exiting the barrel

[A-BOMB]

Again don't use smokeless powder is a waste in flares like this, if you take a gram of black powder and a gram of DBSP and then light each pile you will see that the black powder burns quicker, that is what you want larger shells need a slow burning powder, and then you say in your example the BP burns faster and it always will uncofined, confine DBSP and it burns faster like in a 12gauge shell were there is a wad and shot, and crimp to hold the shell together till the powder gets pretty much burnt, with larger shells you need a slower burning when confined powder, Black powder. And using a rifle primer would give you less flame, than a shotshell, and also I found this if you drill out the primer pocket and put in a shotshell primer the end of the primer is a little bit from the bottom of the case so when you put in powder some of the powder is behind the end of the primer and that powder may not get ignited before the projectile exits the casing.

[Third_Rail]

With ideas like these, perhaps its time for me to dig out my used flares, I knew there was a good reason for saving them! ...especially at $3 a shot.

[Jacks Complete]

I visited a marine supply place the other day, and casually enquired about a few things, including the distress flares. Turns out you can buy these flares without a license or anything in the UK. I might be buying a few some time soon. :)

[Bigfoot]

Be careful with the epoxy solution. I tried just that, drilled my flash hole too small. First primer blew out 1/3 of the epoxy. I wound up just turning some stainless hulls on a lathe. However, exopy in a plug of aluminum, then drill appropritely, that may work better.

Edit:clarify grammar

[zippoxiv]

Finally got around to trying Pyrodex RS powder (FFG equivalent) along with CCI #209 shotgun primers and it works like a charm. The lack of kick was related to the weight of the projectile, although the report is much louder now and no unburned powder. It seems that drilling out the primer pocket to take a #209 shotgun primer is the best way to go. It does appear that the primer pocket is the right size to take a primer from the 7.62 x 54 R Russian round, although most are Berdian primed and finding primers is a hassle regardless.

[MP5Guy]

http://www.dansammo.com/ammo.asp

Look under the AMMO Section. Dan's stuff is First Class as is Dan...

MP

[jojo7]

an easier and cheaper way to go(what I did) is to buy a 6" long 3/4 inch steel pipe nipple from a hardware store, use a stone grinder with some gloves on and make it just a little smaller or just make one end a little smaller then jam this down your barrel and hammer it down all the way and you have converted the gun to a heavy duty 12 guage flare laucher, it would probably shoot regular buckshot if you could rig a folding or non folding stock and a front handle on it but otherwise if you want lethal but not try starting small with the gun powder and work your way up, you dont want the gun to fly up and hit you in the head from the recoil. Just sharing another option, in case you want to..