Poison Gas Ring

[NightStalker]

Amazing how a little searching can lead to unexpected results.

While looking for the cheapest source for the "James Bond" :rolleyes: lighter camera mentioned in NBK's "Blinking" thread, I ran across this little goody.

http://store2.yimg.com/I/wecarecompany_1779_72826.jpg

Found it at http://www.wecarehyperstore.com/noname36.html.

Google terms were [stunning ring OC tear gas].

Anyways, the idea came to me that, since it uses replaceable cartridges, that one could buy a spare, empty out the tear gas, and substitute the poison de jour for spraying in a victims face.

How much more inconspicuous could an assassin get?

A fraction of a milliliter of hydrogen cyanide, hydrazoic acid, or any of the nerve agents, would be more than enough to kill someone if sprayed directly into their eyes/nose/mouth.

Though, if using G/V-agents, the 'sprayer' would join the 'sprayee' in death. But the user of inhalant poisons wouldn't suffer that fate as long as he held his breath as he left the scene right away.

Might even not be noticed during a police patdown prior to being put in the back of the car.

Just you...one cop...a poison gas ring...alone in a car together...:)

The amount needed to kill, when directly sprayed in the face, would be much less than that needed to kill when diluted into the volume of a car interior, especially as you're not going to be hanging around breathing it for ages, as I'd imagine you're kicking out a window ASAP to escape.

Those plastic barriers that cops have in their cars to "protect" them from their passengers in the rear could actually be protecting you from the gas. Simply remove your handcuffs as per the RTPB of hiding handcuff keys in all your cloths, spray the poison into the cops general airspace through the inevitable gap between the partition and the car body, then proceed to kicking.

Naturally, you don't want to kill him when he's doing 60 around a turn, as that'd be very bad for you too. Wait until he's stopped at a red light then gas him.

[Wild Catmage]

Damn, it's a shame I don't like rap music and dress like a whigger, otherwise I’d have a great excuse to wear these rings :rolleyes:

I can forsee a couple of problems with refilling the rings. The refill cartridges would be tiny, and once you’d emptied one it would be difficult to refill it with another substance and then repressurise it, especially if you were working with a more lethal substance.

Also, cops usually travel in pairs :(

Does anyone know whether cops remove asthma inhalers or similar essential medications when they search you?

[Yellow]

Dear Nightstalker
The idea of using lethal toix agents in the ring, might seem as a good idea.
But, all military doctrines for use of lethal chemical agents, says that they are to be used deep inside enemy territory.
Using lethal agents in a handheld device, will be very dangerous to the user.
Irritants are probably the only chemical agents that should be used in such devices.

[NightStalker]

The situation determines the tactics needed.

If you're in a cop car, heading to jail for something that'll get you life in prison, or executed, then what have you to lose by killing one or more cops in the car you are in and possibly escaping?

Even if you die trying, at least you'll go to hell with an police escort leading the way. :)

And, yes, cops usually remove asthema inhalers and such. They figure you're not going to die on the drive to the jail.

[atlas#11]

It's a good idea none the less. I personaly would make it with a time release mechanism so that you would twist a seperate part of the ring to activate a short "fuse". Then you could just twist it, toss it in to their general area and proceed to getting the hell out of their. Of course their would have to be a large quantity of strong gass to be sure and kill them and having the windows rolled down would greatly reduce effectivness. I'm sure in a large fake ring one could put a half ml in their or more and hydrogen cyanide would do it if you could get it to be safely contained in the ring then you would have a gass grenade that would not be found by a pat down.

But we have the problem of metal detectors, making it out of plastic would make it capable of making it through most every security measure(with the draw back of being impact sensitive gassing you :( ). With a little luck(bad luck) one could wind up in jail with one of these on his finger and gass a room full of pigs then make a crafty escape. No on second thought, scratch that, getting in to prison with it would be easy but getting out again with just a gass grenade would be difficult to say the least.

[thrall]

By the way Lethal amount(LD50) of HCN is 1.1mg/kg body weight.Assume a fat cop(they are ususally fat) weight 100 kg. So LD = 110 mg or .11 grams. Now you don't want the cop to survive with 50% probability so you use say .5 grams. Nerve gases have almost same LD50 so even for them you have to have at least .5 grams. assuming the density of water this takes .8 ml of volume and that is a lot to carry in a ring. How to fill the container is another dimention of problem.
So using it as killing agent .....nigger please!

[Opium]

Hello,

Sorry for re-opening an old topic.
I've an little idea if you can refil the OC cartridge with another compound (that's the tricky part) you can use a powerfull fentanyl analog like remifentanyl or 3-Methylfentanyl or the far most potent (3R,4S,βS) p-fluoro-3-Methyl-β-hydroxyfentanyl.
You can easilly kill your oponents and stay safe as long you take some naltrexone pills (Half life of naltrexone 4 to 8h).
So take your pills and carry your fentanyl loaded ring and you can kill stealthly.

[nbk2000]

What is the time until effect of these analogs?

HCN is instantaneous, which is important if you have to get close enough to spray someone in the face with the thing.

The last thing you want is someone screaming and beating on you as you wait for the analog to kill them. Draws too many witnesses to your actions.

[Opium]

Hello NBK,

What is the time until effect of these analogs?

HCN is instantaneous, which is important if you have to get close enough to spray someone in the face with the thing.

The last thing you want is someone screaming and beating on you as you wait for the analog to kill them. Draws too many witnesses to your actions.

These analogs act very quickly by inhalation, in less than one min the victim will be seriously out of combat, few min later the victim will be dead (respiratory depression induced by the µ agonist properties of the fentanyl).

They are as deadly as HCN (some fentanyl analogs are as deadly as V agents!).
HCN can kill you quickly too on the same timing sheme in one min and death 15 min later by anoxia (cytochrome oxydase inhibition and inhibition of other metalic contening enzymatic complex).

But you can protect yourself easily from the fentanyl analogs (as long you're not an opiate addict because naloxone and naltrexone will induce severe withdrawal) just by taking an opiate antagonist pill.

It's very hard to efficientely protect yourself from HCN poisoning the classical therapeutics of cyanide poisonings are O2 gas, hydroxycobalamin, amyl nitrite, sodium thiosulfate.
Impossible to use in the "battlefield".

[chemdude1999]

The problem with Remifentanil is that it has to be injected. I know of no way of getting it airborne effectively. So one would have to incorporate a hypodermic attachment to the ring and then activate it by punching the intended person. Still the lethal dose should be very low (on the order of micrograms per kilograms). Carfentanil is even more potent.

However, the opiates in this class are not really meant to be an out-and-out poisons. They act slowly (well over a minute for effects). On the street they are used to "pump-up" crap quality heroin.

Even with the possible extremely low LD50, the relatively long wait time until effects are noticed negate the drug for the scenarios outlined above. If a person had the luxury of waiting it might be plausible. A person not involved in drugs could use it to kill with the benefit of leading the cops on the wrong track. They would be hunting all the known heroin dealers and their associates. They would also check hospitals since Fentanyl is used as an anesthetic and for pain management.

[nbk2000]

Alpha-Ketoglutarate and L-cystine, in a 10-1 ratio, either orally or intravenously, will protect against several LD's of inhaled HCN or ingested CN salts.

[atlas#11]

I wonder if any of the fentanils are soluble in DMSO... That could speed up effect times I would guess.

Do the pigs have a nasty habit of taking watches off of arrest victims? I've not yet had the misfortune of being arrested myself.

Perhaps a squirt gun style device fitted into a watch filled with a concentrated solution of carfantanil in DMSO would have enough effect to be of use.

Anyone know of any plausible procedures for the production of fentanils? I would guess they're quite expensive to produce for the home hobbiest. Most likely prohibitivly so...

Edit: NBK, the effects of HCN are instantaneous, so I assume you would have to take this mix before being exposed to it. Which doesn't do the pigs much good, but if one were to know he was going to be poisoned how long after ingesting the preventative mix would you have before it wears off? And how well does it work to counter it? I doubt any ammount of antidote will prevent you from any discomfort while inhaling HCN gass, just how well does it work? Or does anyone know?

[nbk2000]

Well, it's been 10 years since I talked to the scientist who was doing the research for the Army, so specifics are kinda fuzzy.

But, from what I remember, there is a delay time of at least 10 minutes from ingestion before the protective effect kicks in, and has an hour or less of protection from a gram dose.

Injection is immediately effective, even against an already inhaled or ingested lethal dose, requiring a smaller dosage, but only lasts a few minutes. Injection is IM not IV.

The 10-1 ratio is most effective, but I've forgotten which one is the 10 and which is the 1, so experimentation would be required.

Seems the best protocol would be to take the oral pill before an expected exposure, and slam an autoinjector of it in the thigh muscle (just like atropine OPA antidotes) upon exposure.

Since the components are essentailly non-toxic and quite cheap, I wouldn't see any problem with making a continuous drip that'd be strapped on prior to use (thinking of open combat, not covert murder), with a metering pump pushing the solution through a nasal tube down into the stomach.

Oh, and the antidote also works against hydrogen sulfide, which is how I found out about it, in an industrial safety trade magazine.

[chemdude1999]

Anyone know of any plausible procedures for the production of fentanils? I would guess they're quite expensive to produce for the home hobbiest. Most likely prohibitivly so...

Check out:
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/fentanyl.html

Seems like a pain for a regular lab, let alone at home. I believe you have to synthesize the NPP because the DEA recently put controls on it. Not positive if they have been implemented, though.

[Telkor]

It has been rumored that soviet special forces used some special ammunition for assassinations, releasing HCN gas. I think it might have been thickened HCN or dissolved cyanide, as it worked on very limited space without killing everybody near the victim.