Exploding targets

[tjh]

I would like to have some discussion on the topic of exploding targets for those who enjoy the shooting sports. My only other post, as of this time, was my explanation of the Tannerite exploding targets. I explained that I believe that they consist of a mixture of ammonium nitrate (AN) and aluminum powder (AL). My own personal mix is with 95% ground agricultural grade AN plus 5% dark pyro grade AL. This mix produces an amazing and powerful report (meaning explosion) when hit with a high speed bullet. It is also a tremendously effective booster for ANFO and other hard to detonate explosives. One other Forum reader, Powdermunkey, replied to my post that he had very good success with this mixture. I would like to hear from other readers if they had good results, and if they have suggestions as to how the mixture might be safely improved. Ultimately, I would like a mixture which is cheap, uses AN, and will detonate with a .22 cal. or handgun load. I'd be pleased to hear from other shooting enthusiasts.

[tom haggen]

I think this has been discussed before. I also find it hard to believe that you detonated a NH4NO3 and Aluminum mixture with a gunshot. NH4NO3 and aluminum is not a sensitive mixture.

[tjh]

Tom, my first inclination is to give you a sarcastic rebuke, but I will hold off until you try this mixture out. We are all friends here, and I believe you are probably from Missouri, the "show me state." This is the whole reason I wanted to start this thread. It is a mixture that has gone unnoticed a long time. I can assure you that AN prills crushed to about the consistency of table salt, mixed with 5% by weight 325 mesh or finer flake or dark aluminum will produce a tremendous explosion, either hit with a high velocity bullet, or kicked off with a weak blasting cap. I generally use German or Indian dark, 600 mesh, but it works with 325 bright as well. Ordinarily you are correct, AN is not very sensitive. But this mixture, WOW!! I have made literally thousands of these targets. Most are only film capsules, but probably a thousand 8 oz. milk cartons, too. We also tape 8 oz. sandwich bags filled with this target mix to 2 liter bottles and gallon jugs of ANFO (5% diesel) and shoot them at great distance. This mix is a wonderful booster for ANFO. I have totally given up on shooting paper targets. I live for the excitement of shooting these targets. They give a wonderful shock right back at you when they go off. A nice thing is they completely disintegrate the milk carton or film capsule. Nothing to mess the place up.
You might wonder, "How can it explode without confinement?" Well, it does, and I'm glad about that. Try it you'll like it. :)

[tom haggen]

I was under the impression that Al only intensified the detonation when mixed with an explosive. It makes the detonation brighter and hotter. I had no Idea that adding aluminum to NH4NO3 would make it so shock sensitive. I still think you are incorrect. An older member might be able to convince me otherwise. Also I'm from the north. I particularly dislike the south because they make all Americans look like cowboys to the rest of the world.

[tjh]

Tom,
I understand your reluctance to believe me--it's too good to be true. Yes, simply powdered AN with 5% pyro-grade Aluminum makes it go boom. Sometimes I can't believe my dog drinks out of the toilet either. The water bowl sits right there in the kitchen. Dumb dog! Yup, it works fine. And by the way, I'm older, just new to this forum. Try, for a moment, to shed your disbelief and mix up some yourself. You'll see. The boys at www.boomershoot.org are convinced, and will be using this mix from now on.

[VX]

This claim is not all that unbelievable, as it is very possible that what you experience is not actually a detonation of the ammonium nitrate but instead a fuel/ oxidiser explosion.... similar to flash powder. Obviously your mix is not as sensitive as flash by a long way, but then as hitting something with a bullet is not very subtle, it doesn't need to be.

Having said that it is possible that you get the AN to detonate as well, I just think this possibility should also be considered.

[vulture]

Just make sure this mix doesn't get into conctact with water, which is a pretty damn hard thing to do considering the hygroscopic nature of ammoniumnitrate!

NH₄NO₃ ---> NH₄⁺ + NO₃^-

NH₄⁺ ---> NH₃ + H⁺

6H⁺ + 2Al ---> 3H₂ + 2Al³⁺

This process is rather exothermic...

Also, the escaping NH₃ gas might cause other nasty side reactions if your mixture contains other compounds.

EDIT: Note that this mixture does not suffer from the typical Al + nitrate reactions in basic environment, because of the acidic nature of ammoniumnitrate. However, acid + Al is just as bad...

Anyways, I doubt this stuff detonates from rifle impact. Deflagration should be possible though.

Did you try the OB mixture yet?

3NH₄NO₃ + 2Al ----> Al₂O₃ + 3N₂ + 6H₂O

I leave calculating the ratios to you...

Also, do not try to protect or stabilize it with bases like carbonates or others!

[tom haggen]

I have read that a small percentage of boric acid will stabilize a KNO3 and Al compostion. Is this true for a NH4NO3 and Al composition.

[vulture]

For god's sake Tom, read my post!

[tom haggen]

Sorry about that, for some reason all I had in my head after I read your post was "Also, do not try to protect or stabilize it with bases like carbonates or others!"

But then I pulled my head out of my ass and saw this "EDIT: Note that this mixture does not suffer from the typical Al + nitrate reactions in basic environment, because of the acidic nature of ammoniumnitrate. However, acid + Al is just as bad..."

[tjh]

OK, friends, I did a little homework. So, listen up! ANAL was used extensively as far back as WWI when the Germans were running out of TNT for their artillery shells. They substituted a mixture of Ammonium Nitrate 86%, Aluminum flakes 8%, and Stearic Acid 6% (??whatfor, I dunno??). They loaded their shells with this because it worked!! Of course they lost the war, but hey! It worked!!! (from Tenney L. Davis, The Chemistry of Powder and Explosives, Chap VII, p 368, reprint 1984). Moreover, Paul W. Cooper tells about slurry explosives containing water saturated Ammonium Nitrate plus a high percentage of Aluminum--about 20% (Explosives Engineering, chap 4.9, 1996). Although this mix is very insensitive, it works extremely well with a booster. At the time of the writing of his book, over 4 billion pounds of slurry explosives were produced each year. What do you think the explosives industry knows that we don't? Another source, Melvin A. Cook in The Science of High Explosives, talks on and on about the early search for the best permissible explosives. Ammonium Nitrate plus many different fuels were used throughout Europe and America in mining applications. Many of the fuels were "non-explosive, non-nitroglycerine types," and the results were that "literally thousands of patents were developed in America, Europe, and elsewhere, disclosing numerous and varied compositions of the non-NG, high-AN type." (chapter 1, page 11) As I read on in his book, I continually encountered the fact about Aluminum sensitizing AN. It was always a main ingredient.

Now boys, let's stop being a bunch of nay-sayers, crying, "It can't work, because it doesn't fit with what I think I already know! Waaaaaaaa!" Try it and you'll see. No, it isn't like flash. It doesn't burn. It doesn't deflagrate. ANAL is more powerful than you think. It has been fantastic for targets and makes a wonderful booster in its own right. Put a cap in it and it goes off high order. Believe me.

On a different note, has anyone tried mixing powdered moth balls with AN? I read that one type of permissible explosive used Napthalene with AN!! Another used air-float charcoal. Does anybody have experience with these mixtures? Remember my main objective: the cheaper the better!!

[steve smith]

Well, i am here to back up the claim that a mix of AN and Aluminum works like a charm. I am here to prove that this works, at detonation. (and NOT at deflagaration)

Bare minimum: A mixture of coffee ground AN, and finely ground, flake, aluminum (300+ mesh). A slight dampening of nitromethane to keep the al dust down is great, but not needed. %'s of al in mix: 1%+ Best bang for the buck, 5%. Have tried up to 15%, more power. Mixture stays stable as long as no h2o get's involved. Problems with this mix includes chunking of the ready made stuff (must be broken with hard object to get out of barrel. ) Works in chunk form. If much h2o permeates through the mix, no go. Dry out, ready to use again.

I originally designed this mix about 2 years ago, after much research. Why was i interested in this mix? Wanted to use better formulas for having fun, ad target shooting. After using this stuff, i looked up tannerite's patent, and found that he has got the same mix going, and selling for big bucks and whammies. I believe that he add's some graphite for extra smoke.

Why does this work? Al/Mg finely (flake) powedered added to any mix increases the sensitivity. Look at flash mixes. Hit any Ox with a hammer, no go, hit with al/mg inside and pop. Although this does NOT work with An, it does increase the sensitivity. What does Diesel do to An? It sensitizes it! Nitromethane? Well, the AN, if i remember correctly, sensitizes nitromethane... ?? (yes i know, it also provides heat energy)

AN is a VERY stable compound, but as we all know, AN does detonate. It's temp., for detonation i believe is around 840F. Remember the Texas city accident in the 50's..?? NOthing involved but AN, which reached detonation temp. Anyone wanna tell me that it deflagarated, not detonated?

The AN/Al mix that i wrote about above does Not burn, rather detontes. I would think that a basic principle of deflagration would mean if you put an amount of an/al into a hot fire, it would deflagrate. Not so. It takes awhile before it even starts, and only then, merely burns slowly, and brightly. Not consistently, goes out as fast as it starts. Then restarts. BP and flash do the same?

Can you detonate flash? Yes you can. Can you deflagrate it? Yes you can. Ammonium Perchlorate is classified as a HIGH explosive in any mesh size smaller than 200mesh. It even detonates by itself. It is now being used in the patriot defense missles instead og other HE comps.

I have tried detonating this comp with many different calibers, and velocitys. Only a rifle round will detonate the mix. A .22, .38, .9mm, 45, .44magnum will NOT set the comp off. A .223 will, every time.

What does a detonator cap do? Provide a shock wave. The bullet must hit an object inside the container in order for the comp to work. Unless, the container itself is quite durable. A bullet can and does move right through the comp if there is not compression for the comp. I have hit many non-confined an/al mixes with no luck, nothing. But have take then same comp and put it inside a container, viola!.

Does anf ANFO mix deflagrate? Can it deflagrate a little, and then detonate? No, it only detonates. Yes, contrary to popular belief you CAN detonate ANFO mixes with flash. Remember, it's the shockwave that causes detonation, NOT the fireball. I have set off ANFO comps many time with flash, didn't get very good result, horrible at best, but some of it DID go high order. Mind you, the shockwave from the flash mix does not go far enoguh to detonate the entire comp, but enough to detonate some of the mix.

The key here is shock, a shockwave. Ever burned HTMD? Will placing a small amount on top of ANY explosive detonate anything? No, why? if deflagrates. Confine the HMTD, or use a lot, the yes, yes it will. I don't think anyone would want to challenge me on that.

Back to what i was saying, flash CAN detonate an anfo mix, but as we all know, so does an hmtd cap. Which to do you think works better? Want an explosive train? What about using PETN? Try this, ok better be safe, don't try this, but trust me on what i about to say, as it is really, REALLY stupid, but hey, when your young, your dumb... Fill a Co2 cartridge with flash, atleast 3/4, no tamping needed. Place in anfo comp, create good confinement (underground), and lgiht the fuse. You get a big-ass hole! Do the same with and HMTD cap, even bigger, and with a cap and PETN booster, you'll be able to find China!

Trust me on this, my pool man asked questions for weeks, my parents wonder why there were rocks 150ft away where they didn't belong...

Will simple flash set off anfo? will an m-80 set off anfo? will a pipebomd set off anfo? think about what's happing here, then see the relationships. You can't tell me that an HMTD cap provides a better shock than a pip full of flash!

What about BP? No, as it does not provide enough energy.

The key here is a shockwave, the bigger, the badder, the best!


Steve
"this is so much fun, it should be illegal... oh wait..."

PS, I am more of a lurker, not a poster, but as you can by my #, i've been around.
:p

[tom haggen]

I would say that HMTD would work as a detonator much better than a confined flash composition. HMTD has much more shattering power than any flash comp.


"The key here is shock, a shockwave. Ever burned HMTD? Will placing a small amount on top of ANY explosive detonate anything? No, why? if deflagrates."

While this may be true for HMTD, some primaries and even a large amount of flash will detonate without confinement.
I think I will stick with what vulture says and stay away from mixing Aluminum with compounds that have a low PH level.

P.S. I'm giving you the understatement of the month award. You said you were a lurker. I noticed that you have been a member since feb 2001, and you only have 4 posts. Thats cool though. Being soft spoken is something I look up to. Is it just me or is it a pain in the ass to scroll when your writing a post?

[tjh]

:D Yaaay Steve! I am glad someone else has finally spoken of the effects of AN/AL detonating with a mere hit of a bullet. I was feeling like my words were not resonating with this audience. I think I agree with most of what Steve wrote.

Vulture, as for the problem of keeping the AN and AL mixture from getting wet/damp-- I keep my target mix sealed inside a 5 gallon paint bucket. My reasoning is this: if the paint can keep from drying out, then the ANAL mix can stay dry inside. Just make sure that the lid stays tight. Besides, the targets have a very short life expectancy anyway. That's what they are designed for.

Now I hope there are more readers "lurking" out there, who can share their knowledge about good, safe and cheap mixtures for target shooting. I am still waiting for responses. Anyone tried AN with Napthalene, charcoal, or any other kind of fuel??? Yes, I know of nitromethane, ammonia and aniline mixtures. What I want to know about is CHEAP and SAFE. Any ideas?

[vulture]

Vulture, as for the problem of keeping the AN and AL mixture from getting wet/damp-- I keep my target mix sealed inside a 5 gallon paint bucket.

A paint bucket has not been designed for corrosive substances like NH4NO3 so it'll corrode over time.

Furthermore, this newb offensive (forgive me the expression) that AN/Al detonates is pointless.

Yes, it was used in the war, but in the war they used dets, they didn't fire an artillery shell and then used a sniper to detonate once it got stuck in the ground. :rolleyes:

A blow can also cause deflagration. If AN/Al would detonate from bullet impact, it couldn't be used for artillery shells. Why? Because the artillery round is subjected to an equal, if not more powerful, shock when fired.

Furthermore, ordnance in a war zone that'll detonate from bullet impact is plain stupid. No military in the world would do that.

And ammoniumperchlorate can't possibly be compared with ammoniumnitrate.

[steve smith]

[QUOTE=vulture]A paint bucket has not been designed for corrosive substances like NH4NO3 so it'll corrode over time.



Anything corrodes over time. (yes, gold & platinum doesn't, let's not argue symantics) I don't think anyone stores their fun stuff for a couple of years.



"Furthermore, this newb offensive (forgive me the expression) that AN/Al detonates is pointless."
"Yes, it was used in the war, but in the war they used dets, they didn't fire an artillery shell and then used a sniper to detonate once it got stuck in the ground. :rolleyes: "



Please elaborate, it doesn't make much sense. dets? -det cord? AN/AL detonates is pointless..? huh, i thought that that was the crutch of the thread, with how to sensitize the mix even more so a .22 could set it off.




"A blow can also cause deflagration. If AN/Al would detonate from bullet impact, it couldn't be used for artillery shells. Why? Because the artillery round is subjected to an equal, if not more powerful, shock when fired."



Not true. It all depends upon how the shock is transferred through the casing. As well as what kind of lift is being used. In the fireworks industry, a slower more "gentle" lift is used for the larger the diameter shell. Why? the stuff inside (flash powder, stars, casing) went off inside the tube. I don't know --anyone-- that can visually see the difference between a "soft" lift and a "hard" lift. But you are right, in that the shock CAN cause deflagaration. But, your own rational proved my point. Which is, the AN/AL mix detonates, and --does NOT-- deflagrate, under ANY circumstance. IF what you say is true, which is, "A blow can also cause deflagration.", then the AN/AL mix would deflagrate INSIDE the bore of the gun/cannon. The AN/AL mixes WERE used inside shells, so therefore no deflagration was occuring.


What about a tomahawk missile? How much force is going through THAT nosecone when it impacts at 600-700+MPH, hitting solid, reinforced concrete, 10 feet thick? Or are you telling me that a number 6 blasting cap provides a better shock? Again, it's how the shock is delivered. Drop a drop of NG (nitroglycerine) onto concrete, from 10ft, will it go? where's the blasting cap? Does this mean that the NG deflagrated? I don't think so!




"Furthermore, ordnance in a war zone that'll detonate from bullet impact is plain stupid. No military in the world would do that."


No? What about blasting caps? Modern day ordinance is cased REAL well, and is chemically and manufactured perftectly. What about the WW2 stuff? I am sure that some of the stuff used in question was a bit questionable. Remember, the Germans were desperate, the Allies were constanly looking for replacements.

Who's talkign about this using stuff in a war zone? Or do you mean your prior remarks regarding the sniper?




"And ammoniumperchlorate can't possibly be compared with ammoniumnitrate."


Excuse me? in which way? Chemically? How much power, too much power? In which respect? Again, the point was detonation, and sensitivity.


AL and MG powders SEVERLY sensitize ANY mixture, which is exactly why it is added to some explosives. Yes i know, not all, but SOME.




Steve ;)

[tjh]

Confused? Vulture, why do you bother to respond to this discussion if you think it is "pointless?" Do you feel that if someone contradicts you, it is an attack on your credibility? We are trying to arrive at some truth here. I mentioned how to store AN/AL for targets, because someone might believe that it could be left in the open and would absorb moisture from the air. I don't think your comment about a plastic 5 gallon paint bucket corroding over time has any relevance. None of us will be around in 500 years to dispute this claim. Certainly, the plastic bucket could be around long after you or I leave this this earth.

Obviously, you don't have experience with military explosives. I can tell you for a fact that what they teach in Explosives Ordinance Disposal (EOD) training in the United States is: Don't try shooting military munitions with a bullet. Indeed, military explosives can be set off with a bullet impact. In other words, DON'T TRY THIS STUNT, boys!!! It is a nightmare scenario for anyone trained to work around HE. What nonsense is this when you write that "ordnance in a war zone that'll detonate from a bullet impact is just plain stupid. No military in the world would do that." What is really stupid is this stupid assertion. We attempt to do that all the time with enemy munitions. Check an impact sensitivity chart!!!!!!!!!!! Nearly all of the munitions and explosives in the military would detonate with a bullet impact!! Especially since much of our ammunition is HE tipped. Only specially designed explosives used for deep penetration on very hardened targets would be able to withstand a direct hit from a military caliber bullet. Don't think so?!? Try to shoot a hand grenade, mortar round, artillery shell, MK-81, MK-82, etc., at close range and see what happens. Don't think it will explode?!?! We will read about your passing in the papers.

Maybe you have no regard for the knowledge of "newbies," but you are losing your credibility, despite all of your messages to this forum. I am interested in continuing to have a dialogue with people with wisdom to share.

[vulture]

You should all read my posts more carefully before jumping to conclusions.

Please elaborate, it doesn't make much sense. dets? -det cord? AN/AL detonates is pointless..? huh, i thought that that was the crutch of the thread, with how to sensitize the mix even more so a .22 could set it off.

I did not say that the detonation of AN/Al is pointless. The discussion a few replies above these posts is pointless, because you fail to see the difference initiation makes.
YES, AN/Al will detonate when initiated from a DETONATOR. So it can detonate. However, I have a hard time believing that it would detonate from mere bullet impact. A bullet at 1000m/s is a piece of shit compared to a detonator exploding at >5000m/s.

Anything corrodes over time. (yes, gold & platinum doesn't, let's not argue symantics) I don't think anyone stores their fun stuff for a couple of years.

I once filled a stainless steel pan with NH4NO3. It took less than 2 hours to corrode the shit out of the thing.

But, your own rational proved my point. Which is, the AN/AL mix detonates, and --does NOT-- deflagrate, under ANY circumstance. IF what you say is true, which is, "A blow can also cause deflagration.", then the AN/AL mix would deflagrate INSIDE the bore of the gun/cannon. The AN/AL mixes WERE used inside shells, so therefore no deflagration was occuring.

I fail to see your logic.

Ofcourse a blow can cause deflagration. Ever smashed a sensitive flashpowder? Now don't tell me flash detonates... :rolleyes:

then the AN/AL mix would deflagrate INSIDE the bore of the gun/cannon.

Which didn't happen, because otherwise it wouldn't be used for artillery shells! So, I have a very hard time believing that a bullet hit will detonate it!

In the fireworks industry, a slower more "gentle" lift is used for the larger the diameter shell.

Shells use DEFLAGRATING BP as a propellant. Artillery shells use NC/NG propellants. That's a HUGE difference.

What about a tomahawk missile? How much force is going through THAT nosecone when it impacts at 600-700+MPH, hitting solid, reinforced concrete, 10 feet thick? Or are you telling me that a number 6 blasting cap provides a better shock? Again, it's how the shock is delivered. Drop a drop of NG (nitroglycerine) onto concrete, from 10ft, will it go? where's the blasting cap? Does this mean that the NG deflagrated? I don't think so!

You are proving MY point here! If the explosive in a tomahawk missile can withstand an impact into a wall, how could a bullet possibly set it off?

Go reread the definitions of deflagration and detonation, because you're confusing things.

You're saying the AN/Al detonated from a bullet impact. Yet you lecture me about how insensitive munitions are to deflagration.

Well here's a newsflash for you: Something that can provoke detonation, can surely provoke deflagration!

What about a tomahawk missile? How much force is going through THAT nosecone when it impacts at 600-700+MPH, hitting solid, reinforced concrete, 10 feet thick? Or are you telling me that a number 6 blasting cap provides a better shock? Again, it's how the shock is delivered. Drop a drop of NG (nitroglycerine) onto concrete, from 10ft, will it go? where's the blasting cap? Does this mean that the NG deflagrated? I don't think so!

The blasting cap is less than 1% of the total ordnance. Good luck hitting that one in such a fashion that the whole thing goes off, because they have an arming switch for a reason.

Excuse me? in which way? Chemically? How much power, too much power? In which respect? Again, the point was detonation, and sensitivity.

You haven't got a clue what you're talking about if you can't even grasp the blatant difference in sensitivity and power between AN and ammoniumperchlorate.

Yes the point was detonation from bullet impact. That is very much related to sensitivity.

Your post must have been one of the most incoherent I've ever seen, because I still don't really understand how you apparently disproved my point.

EDIT:

Nearly all of the munitions and explosives in the military would detonate with a bullet impact!!

So, RDX, TNT, HMX and others will detonate from bullet impact?

Odd thing that bombs that smash into the ground from 10 miles high at a speed of ~700mph can still be recovered intact after 50 years?

[tjh]

Vulture, your last response was directed to my message. I want you to think clearly about what you said. You can't seriously think that shooting a bullet into RDX, TNT or HMX won't cause it to explode, can you? Are you out of your mind!?!? Do you know how foolish your notion is? When you sarcastically stated that a bomb dropping at 700 mph and being recovered fifty years is odd, well it isn't. The explosives inside a 500 pound bomb are only a fraction of the bomb weight. The massive steel casing can protect the explosive core from much of the shock of impact, or alternatively produce a vast fragmentation pattern of steel shards when the fuse detonates the core. This is why bombs with faulty fuses/detonators fail to detonate on impact, and are later found intact. Furthermore, the velocity of this hypothetical bomb is merely 313 meters/sec. or less than 1/3 the velocity of a bullet traveling at 1000 m/s (these are your figures, remember?). The original argument was that AN/AL will detonate upon being hit by a high power bullet, something like 1000 m/s. Not handgun ammo. Your example clearly supports what I have been saying all along. For some reason this discussion has hurt your pride. Go back and review your math. If not, then just let go of it. Your reasoning is very foolish.

[steve smith]

“You should all read my posts more carefully before jumping to conclusions.”

I think you should explain yourself better. Confusion is happening here, and you are specifically stating exactly what I wrote before.


”I did not say that the detonation of AN/Al is pointless. The discussion a few replies above these posts is pointless, because you fail to see the difference initiation makes. “


If I failed to see the difference initiation makes, then why did I write in my prior posts the following:
“Does an ANFO mix deflagrate? Can it deflagrate a little, and then detonate? No, it only detonates. Remember, it's the shockwave that causes detonation, NOT the fireball.”
As well as:
“Will simple flash set off anfo? will an m-80 set off anfo? will a pipebomd set off anfo? think about what's happing here, then see the relationships. You can't tell me that an HMTD cap provides a better shock than a pip full of flash!”
Lastly:
“What does Diesel do to An? It sensitizes it! Nitromethane? Well, the AN, if i remember correctly, sensitizes nitromethane...”

AN requires a sensitizer. AN by itself can detonate, but requires such a massive shock, or a massive amount of heat it would be pointless to use in the explosive world by itself. Obviously, AN can be detonated with different types sensitizers. Why wouldn’t a highly reactive metal powder such as Al work the same? Do you know the principle behind explosives? The two major parts to an explosion?



”YES, AN/Al will detonate when initiated from a DETONATOR. So it can detonate. “


So it can detonate!!?? Wow, thank you for that concession, I guess my prior “pointless” posts do have a point.
What changed your mind from your prior post stating “Anyways, I doubt this stuff detonates from rifle impact. Deflagration should be possible though.”????



“However, I have a hard time believing that it would detonate from mere bullet impact. A bullet at 1000m/s is a piece of shit compared to a detonator exploding at >5000m/s.”


If I hit you over the head with a whiffle bat at 10mph, would you feel it? Yes. Would you get a headache? No, probably not. Would you get a concussion? No probably not. Now if I hit you over the head with a baseball bat at 10mph, would you feel it? Yes. Would you get a headache? Yes, probably . Would you get a concussion? Maybe. If I hit you over the head with a lead pipe at 10mph, would you feel it? Hell yes. Would you get a headache? Hell yes. Would you get a concussion? Hell yes.

Since I have to be so clear with you, as we wouldn’t want any accidents with this stuff, I know this analogy isn’t the same as HE, but it is EXACTLY what I was saying with my prior remarks regarding bullet sizes. All handgun rounds move way too slowly to set off the AN/Al mix. It takes a rifle round, moving from a .223 at about 3200fps (feet per second) to set the stuff off. Yes I understand a .223 is really only a .22, but look at the AMOUNT of powder behind that little .22. What about a .50? Do you think THAT would set off an HE mix? (let’s just say you can effectively kill someone at over a mile away!)

A rifle round moving as fast as it does, can deliver FAR more shock to an HE comp that any old blasting cap could. (Perhaps if it is a military grade cap, then not) Look at the DIRECTION of MOVEMENT of shock. A blasting cap will throw ALL of it’s energy (shock/detonation), in a circlular formation. A bullet will CONCENTRATE its force onto ONE point . Ever blow a cap on top of a brick? Then blown up a cap in a hole, inside the brick? Would the be a difference of sizes of bricks afterward? Maybe the direction of shock?

Mr. Vulture, do you own a gun? If so, what kind? I think part of the problem here is that your not quite that familiar with guns. More specifically, your not familiar as to what a bullet can penetrate. Any gun enthusiasts here? Can anyone please enlighten Mr. Vulture what a .50 can go through? Perhaps an engine block? The amount of energy a bullet has, is unbelievable. And when you start taking into effect hot loads, steel core, jacketed, and so…….




”I once filled a stainless steel pan with NH4NO3. It took less than 2 hours to corrode the shit out of the thing. “

I am sorry, I have to be completely rude here. I once had a canary once, she bred, had kids and died. It was a happy life, sitting in the cage all day. One day I let her out, she shit all over the place though.

How again was the above relevant to the conversation? Ohhh, yea, we were discussing HDPE (High Density PolyEthelyene) Wait, no, this still made no sense, as one was plastic, the other was a metal. Did anyone say anything different regarding metal? No! We were talking about HDPE, the same stuff your claiming reacts so much over time with AN. Then answer me this: Why do AN manufacturers ship and store the AN they produce in large plastic, mostly HDPE conatainers? If you want me to take a picture of a bag, I’ll be more than happy to oblige. I am NOT surprised but the stainless reacting with NH4NO3, I know how it is. I believe you. I’ve seen it myself. Or were you trying to make an analogy? But you forgot one very important item Mr tjh had, this mix he stores is dry, and is NOT open to the surrounding air. My AN is stored dry as well, but not mixed. It is also stored in the manufacturers bags



“I fail to see your logic.”

You fail to see many things. I see your logic, but fail to see the practical reasoning behind it.




”Of course a blow can cause deflagration. Ever smashed a sensitive flashpowder? Now don't tell me flash detonates... ”


Who me smash flash before? I’ll just rest by re-quoting an above post by myself: “Why does this work? Al/Mg finely (flake) powdered added to any mix increases the sensitivity. Look at flash mixes. Hit any Ox with a hammer, no go, hit with al/mg inside and pop.” So yes I have smashed flashpowder. Mr. tom haggen does state the following: “While this may be true for HMTD, some primaries and even a large amount of flash will detonate without confinement.” So he believes that flash CAN detonate. Now, I ALSO do believe that flash can detonate, if given the proper conditions.




”Which didn't happen, because otherwise it wouldn't be used for artillery shells! So, I have a very hard time believing that a bullet hit will detonate it!”

Please read my post below, as it really sums it all up. Your above concession then reinforces my statement that AN/Al mixes DO detonate. (as the AN/AL comp WAS used in shells, it MUST detonate) Lastly, after you read the third to last paragraph, read the above again, about how a bullet will detonate a high explosive mix.




”Shells use DEFLAGRATING BP as a propellant. Artillery shells use NC/NG propellants. That's a HUGE difference.”

Yes, which is why they use METAL for their casing, and the pyro industry uses chipboard. The same idea applies. (Yes I know, the military is trying to kill people with their warez, and the pyro industry is trying to ohh and ahh the crowd.) How is the initial shock being transferred!? This is key here, as below proves exactly what I was stating. Please completely through, then respond.


Quote:
What about a tomahawk missile? How much force is going through THAT nosecone when it impacts at 600-700+MPH, hitting solid, reinforced concrete, 10 feet thick? Or are you telling me that a number 6 blasting cap provides a better shock? Again, it's how the shock is delivered. Drop a drop of NG (nitroglycerine) onto concrete, from 10ft, will it go? where's the blasting cap? Does this mean that the NG deflagrated? I don't think so!

”You are proving MY point here! If the explosive in a tomahawk missile can withstand an impact into a wall, how could a bullet possibly set it off?”

Or shall I quote you at this point “You should all read my posts more carefully before jumping to conclusions.”


Look at what I stated in my prior post, which was “It all depends upon how the shock is transferred through the casing.” No listen up, this line is absolutely key here. Let me state this ONE MORE TIME : “It all depends upon how the shock is transferred through the casing.”

Have you ever seen the designs of modern missiles? Goto www.globalsecurity.org for a peek, you will learn a lot! The nose cones are key. The nosecones are the parts of a missile that take the initial impact, and absorb the shock of the collision. As well as the frame of the missile. Again, it’s how the shock is being transferred here, and what takes the shock.


“Go reread the definitions of deflagration and detonation, because you're confusing things.”

No, I don’t think you completely understand the mechanics of a detonation. I am not saying that I am a scientist at White Sands, but do understand the real world scenarios with AN/AL mixes, as well as other explosives. Any many principles of explosives.

Take a 50lb weight, glue an M112 block to it and drop it from a height where it would reach terminal velocity. (a block of M112 is 1 ¼ lbs of C4) Make sure when the package hits the ground, the M112 hits FIRST, then the 100lb weight behind the M112. Now Mr. Bond, Covalent Bond, the question to you is: will the block of C4 detonate. Do you feel lucky?



”You're saying the AN/Al detonated from a bullet impact. Yet you lecture me about how insensitive munitions are to deflagration.”

No, not all. I gave practical proof and AN/AL comps, and Mr. TJH gave plenty of references from the past wars, and the current explosive industry. I only pointed out, as to how insensitive the AN/AL mix was to deflagration. Anyone who knows anything about comp C4, or who has been in the military (not including the paper pushers/support personnel) knows how C4 can be burned like a campfire to warm their foodstuffs in time of need.

”Well here's a newsflash for you: Something that can provoke detonation, can surely provoke deflagration!”

Really? Especially since a detonation includes a fireball?



”The blasting cap is less than 1% of the total ordnance. Good luck hitting that one in such a fashion that the whole thing goes off, because they have an arming switch for a reason.”

Just refer to the end, or above, thank you.



”You haven't got a clue what you're talking about if you can't even grasp the blatant difference in sensitivity and power between AN and ammonium perchlorate.”


Actually, I showed EXACTLY the opposite, you showed no knowledge. You simply stated that “ammonium perchlorate can't possibly be compared with ammonium nitrate.” By what reasoning? I asked in what respect. Simply restated:”in which way? Chemically? How much power, too much power? In which respect?” Notice I asked TWICE, “how much power, too much power?” I showed a good deal of understanding of the properties of AP. I also stated that AP in mesh sizes of 200mesh or greater, is classified as a high explosive. I take it that I still “haven't got a clue what [I am] talking about [I] can't even grasp the blatant difference in sensitivity and power between AN and ammonium perchlorate?”



”Your post must have been one of the most incoherent I've ever seen, because I still don't really understand how you apparently disproved my point.”

If I was really so incoherent, why was it that you have conceded that the AN/AL comp DOES detonate? Maybe this point will show you the light, and you will be able to turn over a new leaf and see the world through new eyes.





”So, RDX, TNT, HMX and others will detonate from bullet impact? “

Yes, yes they would. Try shooting RDX, TNT, HMX with a 50cal. Now lemme ask you this, as you are standing next to the target, do you feel lucky? (cause my aim is really, really good, and I won’t miss the explosive comp.) Do you realize as to how sensitive RDX is? Have you ever read about the sensitivity test, such as the impact, or drop test? Just to let you know, Tenney L. Davis’s book, on page 21, 2nd paragraph describes that “a 2 kilogram weight dropped from 60-180cm will cause the explosion of TNT.” “Odd thing that bombs can smash into the ground from 10 miles high at a speed of ~700mph can still be recovered”, (as quoted from you) and not suffer more force a 2 kilogram weight from 60-180cm’s high to not go off.

”Odd thing that bombs that smash into the ground from 10 miles high at a speed of ~700mph can still be recovered intact after 50 years?”

Yea, odd that they reach terminal velocity after 1 mile, making no difference as to what altitude they are dropped from. True, as the atmosphere gets thicker, they do slow down, but let’s not argue semantics. Maybe, for some reason, the casing took the shock? What about the detonator, which was probably mercury fulminate, or something just as sensitive. Wouldn’t you agree that at least THAT (the detonator) would explode!!?? Well, it didn’t, so therefore the shock would have had to go somewhere.

Please go back and study up some more. Preferably some more “field” experiments will help and aide you in your quest for knowledge of covalent bonds. If your ever in area, please send me an email, and well go break some covalent bonds together.


With admirable pleasure,

Steve
:cool: :eek:

[tom haggen]

"AN by itself can detonate, but requires such a massive shock, or a massive amount of heat it would be pointless to use in the explosive world by itself."

--Now that is untrue. Have you ever herd of mining? people use straight AN all the time in mining operations. It is detonated with a booster.

At first I was only skeptical about an AN/AL mixture being able to detonate with the impact of a bullet. I really didn't have any proof otherwise. Then I was reminded when reading one of vulture's posts that the military uses AN/AL amongst other things in their artilary shells. If a projectile filled with AN/AL can be shot out of a tank, with stand the impact of hitting it's target's exterior, penatrate it's target and detonate inside, this is all the proof I need.

[EP]

I know this isn't a democracy, but I vote everyone just shut up until somebody else actually tests this and reports on the results. :rolleyes:

I'm planning on testing AN/Al in the next couple weeks hopefully, but using a detonator because:

a) I don't have enough AN that I want to risk wasting it.
and
b) I don't have a suitable gun, although my friend did recently order a .357 rifle that might work and he will have before long.

Anybody want to settle this so they can stop arguing?

[steve smith]

Mining? yes i have heard of it, i think it's usually called, "if it ain't grown, it's mined.."

Wasn't under the impresion that modern day mines use straight AN, everyone i have talked to use's ANFO bags or mixing trucks... Sorry, my bad, no problem.

TJH actually brought up the whole military aspect. Wasn't quite sure as to the military aspect of the comp until his post.

There is a lot more to just penetrating armor, it completly depends upon what type of armor your hitting, what casign design you have an so on.. I ain't no engineering scientist for that, don't look at me, but it ain't that simple! There is currently a 1st gen JDAM sitting 110ft below the surface of the *cough* nevada desert right now, with full ordinance inside. No one is asking to resurrect it. This was in response to the "possible" "conflict" in iraq, 1991.

I'll personally send 10lbs of AN to the first respondent with a mailing address willign to try. Or at least, find a supplier of AN in their area...



Stevo

[vulture]

Steve, I'm having the impression we're not understanding eachother correctly which leads to a lot of confusion.

So it can detonate!!?? Wow, thank you for that concession, I guess my prior “pointless” posts do have a point.

Yup, but it requires a detonator. The bang you hear could originate from a deflagration as well as a detonation, that's all I'm saying. I was trying to point out to you that because it goes BANG on bullet impact, doesn't necessarily means it detonates.

If I hit you over the head with a whiffle bat at 10mph, would you feel it? Yes. Would you get a headache? No, probably not. Would you get a concussion? No probably not. Now if I hit you over the head with a baseball bat at 10mph, would you feel it? Yes. Would you get a headache? Yes, probably . Would you get a concussion? Maybe. If I hit you over the head with a lead pipe at 10mph, would you feel it? Hell yes. Would you get a headache? Hell yes. Would you get a concussion? Hell yes.

Let me use an other analogy. If you poke me hard with a baseball bat, sure, I'd get a nice bruise, but poke me hard with a sharp but small knife and I bleed to death.

A 2g HMTD detonator can indeed be more effective than 10g flash in detonating an explosive.

Don't forget that AN/Al is actually also a flashpowder. And generally, initiating deflagration requires alot less energy than detonation. Flashpowders have a tendency to deflagrate when struck hard. I yet have to see the first scientific proof that flash can make DDT.

A loud bang, even using unconfined material, is not proof of detonation.

Try lighting KClO3/sodiumbenzoate or KMnO4/atomized Mg. You'll get a deafening bang without confinement, but it won't crack (well maybe crack due to excessive heating) or cut your test bench.

For some reason this discussion has hurt your pride. Go back and review your math. If not, then just let go of it. Your reasoning is very foolish.

That's the second time you start hammering about pride. I thought I'd just ignore because the irrelevance of it in this discussion, but you're starting to piss me off.

Steve has brought up some good arguments (albeit a little bit hard to grasp for me) to refute my point. All you do is saying what kind of expert you are, how right you are and how somehow this discussion is related to my pride.

Sounds a bit hypocritical to me if you're trying to establish yourself as an expert in such a way.

You somehow seem to think that I post on this forum to satisfy my own pride.
Wrong. I post on this forum to help people out and to make sure they don't hurt themselves. Sometimes I make mistakes, everyone does. I'll admit having made a mistake if someone shows me I'm wrong with reasonable arguments.

Namecalling is not a reasonable argument.

Try asking other members who've been around here a tiny weeny bit longer than you if I like to abuse this forum to establish my pride. :rolleyes:

[Guerilla]

While this has not much to do with AN/Al, I was quite surprised how easily I was able to set off an AN/Zn mix some time ago, with a HMTD-cap though.. The mix was not in OB as I thought having that much metal in it (~45% Zn), it would be even harder to detonate. So I started with only 15%.

50g of this mix was put on a wooden board (1 inch thick) in a zip-lock bag (its very moisture sensitive) and initiated with approx. 1g HMTD. To my surprise the board was blown into pieces and it seemed the detonation was complete. At least it gave a noticably louder report than a mere blasting cap.

I will do more tests with this and with bigger charges, maybe with AN/Al too if I can grind down decent quality powder with the blender method. Im truly impressed if I can set it off with my .22 though, but I can try it as well. Maybe later with a .308 if I get the license.

I side with EP; its better when people also use their first-hand experience to back up their claims..

[tjh]

Vulture, you seem to be getting what I have stated mixed up with Steve Smith. I was the one who said that it was foolish to think that shooting a bullet into RDX, TNT or HMX wouldn't set it off. It certainly can. Ever heard of the hammer drop test? Have you taken a glance at shock sensitivity test data? Military explosives are viable targets because they will detonate from a variety of projectiles. They are frequently reported in after-action intelligence debriefings as "secondary explosions."

Vulture, I have offered considerable evidence that AN/AL detonates. I have backed up my assertions time after time with published evidence (read my posts). I have cited the books I referenced. You seem to ignore what I have said, and continue to make the foundless assertion that AN/AL is merely a flash powder. As I understand it, the term "flash" is a pyrotechnical term. In no way is it flash. It is not spark sensitive nor flame sensitive. It has never been used in the pyrotechnics field as flash. Nowhere in my research, nor in any pyrotechnics book is it listed as flash, nor included AN as an ingredient in flash.

You have not responded to my evidence, offered opposing evidence, or conducted your own tests, but still continue to write negative statements concerning this issue. I am providing you with reasonable arguments which you do not respond to. Moreover, I have found others with experiences with AN/powder metal mixtures that detonate--Powdermunkey, Steve Smith's responses, the people at boomershoot.org, a guy named Phoenix KEA in another thread, and now, perhaps a new mixture of AN/zinc from a contributor named Guerilla. All you have offered is your assertion that AN/AL is flash. Do you have any evidence other than your own words? Ever consider that you are wrong?

I am not resorting to name calling. However, in the face of evidence, when a person can't defend an argument with new or contradictory evidence, then to continue to argue must be a matter of pride. I am certainly not trying to extablish myself as any expert. I no longer work around explosives in my job, and am not a trained chemist. I have genuine hands-on experience, though. I also have an open mind.

My apologies to all of you who are reading this thread to gain some new insight into safe, easy, cheap, and powerful target mixtures. I know I am drifting off the subject. If it interests you, try the AN/AL (95%-5%) mixture and see for yourself. Also, please keep this thread alive with your own experiences and other formulas. I think I'll try the AN/Zinc mix, next.

Above all, when you go out shooting, HAVE A BLAST!!

[MightyQuinn®]

Ok.

I am a NewB so please let em knwo if I break any rules.

I have used these exploding targets extensivly. I can assure you that there is detonation. I can assure you that there is NO flash. I can assure you that there IS power behind them. The more you mix, the louder and more powerful.

It DOES seem to matter that the contents is somwhat contained (ie. plastic bottle) I have had limited experience with smalller containers such as pill bottles film vials. Now slightly larger vitamin containers work fine. I have also mixed 3 or 4 targets and taped them in to a ziplock bag......this detonates just fine.

I have some links to video I shot while shooting these targets.

**Edit These were shot with my Yugo Mauser in 8mm.

**Edit2: You should right-click on these and choose "Save Target As"

http://www.50caliber.net/video/barrelsplit.wmv
http://www.50caliber.net/video/twigtoss.wmv
http://www.50caliber.net/video/rockblast.wmv

OK....If I am going to be flamed and banned for this, I better go get my NOMEX underware on!

Quinn Out.

[vulture]

I can assure you that there is detonation.

How do you know? Did you measure the VoD?

Notice how the container get's thrown up into the air and comes back down in one piece, rather than being shred to irrecoverable pieces.

Same goes for the tree branch.

Do you have an "after" shot of the last vid? Because it's quite hard to see what kind of damage was done.

What makes you think you'd get banned for this?

[MightyQuinn®]

How do you know? Did you measure the VoD?

Actually, I did not, so what I said is speculation. I will reaserarch methods of measuring VoD and get back to you on this.

Notice how the container get's thrown up into the air and comes back down in one piece, rather than being shred to irrecoverable pieces.

The 55Gal plastic barrel takes quite a beating with that charge. I have further closeup footage of the damage to barrel. I will dig up the tape again and reconvert if you like.

Same goes for the tree branch.

The tree branch weighed in at about 70lbs (I called it twigtoss for irony)

Do you have an "after" shot of the last vid? Because it's quite hard to see what kind of damage was done.

What makes you think you'd get banned for this?

Been reading for a bit and it seems like a tough place. :D

[vulture]

I noticed that the plastic barrel takes quite a beating, but it's plastic after all.

If it would have an appreciable VoD, both the barrel and the tree branch would have been cut instead of thrown. Ofcourse, below 4000m/s there isn't much cutting action left, but it's hard to prove or disprove that detonation occurs then.

[steve smith]

I also have PLenty of video, if anyone would be intersted. Let's just say, hours and hours of it. All targets, all being done with a .223.

Where should i start?

Let's start here, i've been away for awhile.




"I was trying to point out to you that because it goes BANG on bullet impact, doesn't necessarily means it detonates."

What about if the same amount leaves the same size crater, bang, and rocks through the air?






"If you poke me hard with a baseball bat, sure, I'd get a nice bruise, but poke me hard with a sharp but small knife and I bleed to death."

true, good point. But as you can see, the sharp knife penetrates and causes severe damage, that other is just blunt trauma. You onl;y need to START a detonation, once it starts, it goes. (yes to a point, i understand, but the idea peoples...)





"A 2g HMTD detonator can indeed be more effective than 10g flash in detonating an explosive"

EXACTLY, which is why i wrote the following: "Will simple flash set off anfo? will an m-80 set off anfo? will a pipebomd set off anfo? think about what's happing here, then see the relationships. You can't tell me that an HMTD cap provides a better shock than a pip full of flash!" and before this i wrote "Does anf ANFO mix deflagrate? Can it deflagrate a little, and then detonate? No, it only detonates. Yes, contrary to popular belief you CAN detonate ANFO mixes with flash. Remember, it's the shockwave that causes detonation, NOT the fireball. I have set off ANFO comps many time with flash, didn't get very good result, horrible at best, but some of it DID go high order. Mind you, the shockwave from the flash mix does not go far enoguh to detonate the entire comp, but enough to detonate some of the mix." notice i DO SAY, "horrible at best, but some of it DID go high order."






"A loud bang, even using unconfined material, is not proof of detonation."

How could one prove detonation to you then, Mr Vulture? You have any equiptment that you wanna spare? Rather than tell us how NOT to do something, tell us HOW to prove soemthing to you, short of spening thousands of $$$$$$$$.





"Try lighting KClO3/sodiumbenzoate or KMnO4/atomized Mg. You'll get a deafening bang without confinement, but it won't crack (well maybe crack due to excessive heating) or cut your test bench."

Yes, what are you doing. Did you say try LIGHTING?? Try taking some Pot. Cholrate, (KCLO3) adn AL powder, put a cap to it. You gonna tell me it won't detonate?





"That's the second time you start hammering about pride. I thought I'd just ignore because the irrelevance of it in this discussion, but you're starting to piss me off."

TJH has already responded to this, but i just want to make clear to EVERYONE that i DID NOT write this, thank you very much!!!






"I was quite surprised how easily I was able to set off an AN/Zn mix some time ago," -Guerilla

Hmmm, i have tried this mix before, got nothing. Will try again, but with 1lb charges, and more precision. Also with bullets. Didn't have any luck.

I know it has already been said, but i jsut want to reinterate this. AN/AL mixes ARE NOT FLASH, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. to prove this, i will requote what i wrote in a post above (my origianl post) :"The AN/Al mix that i wrote about above does Not burn, rather detontes. I would think that a basic principle of deflagration would mean if you put an amount of an/al into a hot fire, it would deflagrate. Not so. It takes awhile before it even starts, and only then, merely burns slowly, and brightly. Not consistently, goes out as fast as it starts. Then restarts. BP and flash do the same?"






"How do you know? Did you measure the VoD? "

I'm sorry vulture, but how the hell do you think any of us are ever going to be able to measue the VoD on ANY explosion? Really quick tape measure? Seriously, you know a nuke when it goes off by what it looks like, not by gamma radiation detectors, not by fiber optic readings. I have a video camera, will post some .mpgs some time.






"Notice how the container get's thrown up into the air and comes back down in one piece, rather than being shred to irrecoverable pieces."

This is exactly waht is SUPPOSED to hapen with a barrel liek this. I will make an assertion, a very STRONG assertion that this barrel is made from HDPE, or at least a COUSIN of HDPE. Lemme tell you something about HDPE, the beauty of HDPE, IT DOES NOT SHATTER. It merely shreds, or strings out long and spiny... This is why it is used inthe fireworks industry for launching shells. If a shell goes off INSIDE the tube, the tube DOE NOT SHATTER. The tube "holds" the explosion and mushrooms out . Lastly, AN mixes, ANY kind of AN mix, HAS VERY LITTLE CUTTING POWER, IF ANY AT ALL. IF you take 10lbs of c4 and 10lbs of ANY AN mix, the AN mix WILL leave a larger crater, period! Why? AN is a "heaving" explosive, which "moves" material. It does not shatter rocks. I have done the c4, AN test, and it's true. C4 detonates at sucha high velocity, it cuts threw everything, AN moves material. THis is jsut another why it is used in the quarrying industry.





VUlture, we have been trying to prove that an/al mixes detonate. Why don't you give solid evidence why it can't, from a bullet. Or at the VERY minimum, a process how to measure the detonation? Please, no massive financial burdens, or time consuming devices. I have a video camera, and have plenty of video i have shot (and am willign to tape the process). I will perhaps .mpg them and ul them to the server.

And i also ask you on a personal level, how much actual FIELD experience with explosives do you have? How many different types of explosive, in large quatities have you played with? I am NOT talking about 1-20gram mixes, nor am i talking about one or two 10lb shots, i am talking about multiple 20-30 lb shots, different explosives, and techniques.

Lastly, I am asking you how much experience you have with guns, of varying types. Including handguns, and rifles. Different caliber sizes? Different rounds: armour piercing, FMJ, steel core, hollow tip, tracers and so forth. You may not think that that may make a difference, but lemme tell you about 1 inch thick plates, that have holes through it, marks and divits. The engineering of force is a wonderous art.

MightyQuinn: Fear not the mighty administrators. Unless you start using foul language, flaiming people with no reason or start threads where they don't belong, write what you want!

And oh yeah, thanks getting my back!!

Steve

[Guerilla]

Hmmm, i have tried this mix before, got nothing. Will try again, but with 1lb charges, and more precision. Also with bullets. Didn't have any luck. What proportions did you use? I guess its also possible the sensitivity increases as the ratio goes nearer to the oxygen balance. I see if I can make some more investigation this weekend..

There's this (http://www.geocities.com/pyrotuksia/50gANZn.avi) (save as) quality video of the previous test, not much to see as it was shot at 1am :p . The charge also had a gasoline bag on top of it, but it failed to ignite.

It can be at risk to prepare bigger batches of this at once, because the ingredients have to be fine and intimately mixed with each other which generates heat during the blending even if the AN seems fully dry. I solved this by placing the mixing bag into cold water.. If the finished mix gets moisture on it, it starts bubbling and fizzling, releasing ammonia and sometimes eventually burns at one go, puffing out a thick smoke cloud..so an air-tight container is needed.

Only a caution, as you dont want a main charge heating up around a primary and setting it off prematurely while you are still at close range..just because it happened to be a rainy day. :)

[Dr_Pind]

Just wondering. couldn't one just add a few percents of AP to anfo or a similar mix to make it sensitive to impact from a bullet? :rolleyes:

[vulture]

I'm sorry vulture, but how the hell do you think any of us are ever going to be able to measue the VoD on ANY explosion?

Detcord, a sample of the explosive and two witness plates. It's called Dautriche method IIRC. I was under the impression that either tjh or you would be aware of this method, considering your vast experience with explosives.

I know it has already been said, but i jsut want to reinterate this. AN/AL mixes ARE NOT FLASH, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.

They're not exactly the standard type of flash, but a mixture of an oxidizer and a metal powder is usually designed as flash. AN/Al mix with an OB of 0% can be burned like flash. Ofcourse with only 5% it'll be rather shitty.

Yes, what are you doing. Did you say try LIGHTING?? Try taking some Pot. Cholrate, (KCLO3) adn AL powder, put a cap to it. You gonna tell me it won't detonate?

I'm not sure if it'll detonate. Consider this: most primaries have a higher VoD than flash. So, the primary detonates at let's say 5000m/s. The flash may be able to detonate at 3000m/s. So i'd say the flash would be blown into all directions by the det shockwave before it could complete detonation.

AN is a "heaving" explosive, which "moves" material. It does not shatter rocks. I have done the c4, AN test, and it's true. C4 detonates at sucha high velocity, it cuts threw everything, AN moves material. THis is jsut another why it is used in the quarrying industry.

True. But i'd still expect a detonation of that much AN/Al to do more damage to a barrel of HDPE than what the video shows. I could be wrong though. Is it HDPE?

I am unfortunately not able to set off large charges because of dense population here.

[Jacks Complete]

Wow! Not often you see this much pointless arguement on the boards!

Right, both sides of this arguement are right, with caveats.

The energy needed to initiate an explosive depends on the explosive. You can use a blasting cap, or blunt trauma, but you have to exceed the critical energy transfer, or it doesn't do anything, or you get a partial det.

A high-velocity rifle bullet can impact some explosives and make it explode. On others, it will do nothing at all.

The quiz with the C-4 above ("Drop it with a weight behind it...") was silly. It will not go off. Not with ten pounds, not with 10,000 pounds. The rate of energy transfer is far too slow.

The best way to think of all this, is to look at silly putty and water. If you hit silly putty fast enough, it shatters. This is the same as detonation. Hit it slowly, and you just get a dent. There is a critical impact speed, where just enough energy is transferred in a short enough time, for "detonation" to occur. Now, with silly putty, you can often tell if it shattered, or whether it just deformed, quite easily. Explosives aren't that easy, normally.

With water, you are closer to the case with an explosive.
Hit water slowly, and you will see nothing. Hit it really, really hard, as fast as you can, with a lead pipe, and you will see nothing. The pipe will be wet, nothing more. Yet shoot it with a lead bullet, and it will flatten it like a pancake. Watch carefully, though, and you will see no difference with the naked eye (or a normal video camera) in what happens to the water.

The energy transfer occurs fast enough, and the explosive goes bang, and detonates. The energy tranfer takes too long, no detonation.

Of course, some explosives will still deflagrate, which may be taken for detonation. Others will just sit there quietly.

AN generally does not detonate. It is a low explosive, and it acts more like a propellant, and so it does tend to move larges amounts of material, rather than cutting, as a highly energetic primary would. When treated just right, it will detonate. You can make it detonate by raising the temperature above a certain point, so that the propagation of the shockwave will push the bulk of the material over that critical threshold for energy transfer, and bang! Or, you can use a big blasting cap to send a big enough shockwave into it.

However, you will get a much better detonation, with a higher VOD, if you raise the AN to just below the critical temperature (be careful!) and THEN set off the cap.

If you don't believe this, get a couple of caps, and put one over a flame, on a gauze, and shock the other one, say by hitting with a hammer. Which one was obviously louder?

[steve smith]

"[QUOTE=Jack's Complete]Wow! Not often you see this much pointless arguement on the boards!"

Hehehehe... hey, it keeps one occupied when bored. Nothing like a little good entertainment..




"Detcord, a sample of the explosive and two witness plates. It's called Dautriche method IIRC. I was under the impression that either tjh or you would be aware of this method, considering your vast experience with explosives."


Should i have to repeat myself, again? Hmm, but how many of us can get ahold of Detcord on a regular basis? Hmmmm, lemme think, ohh wait, no i don't have to, not very many people at all. So lemme ask you again, "but how the hell do you think any of us are ever going to be able to measue the VoD on ANY explosion? [and withouth a massive undertaking in cost?]






"They're not exactly the standard type of flash, but a mixture of an oxidizer and a metal powder is usually designed as flash. AN/Al mix with an OB of 0% can be burned like flash. Ofcourse with only 5% it'll be rather shitty."

You know, just because you have a fuel, and an oxdizer, doesn't mean it's automatically classified as a flash. I can't think of ANY potassium nitrate mixes, that don't use another more powerfull oxidizer inside. I am not saying there aren't, just saying that this is NOT a flash mix. I just don't see AN beign capable of providing the necessary O2 to make a decent flash. has anyone out there made an AN based flash? What are the percentages?? WOuld love to try somtime. Have plenty of german black, and AN.






"Consider this: most primaries have a higher VoD than flash. So, the primary detonates at let's say 5000m/s. The flash may be able to detonate at 3000m/s. So i'd say the flash would be blown into all directions by the det shockwave before it could complete detonation."

Yes, yes, yes, yes... this is exactly what i was driving at with my flash in a co2 container argument. Some of it went, not all, but some. Even when it went, it didn't go as best as t could, but it still went.. I would think ALL primaries have a higher VOD than a basic flash. But does this mean that flash detonates?




"I am unfortunately not able to set off large charges because of dense population here."

Like i said before Mr. Vulture, come around my parts, and we'll go have some fun. It'll be a shit eating grin good time. I''ll even go hunt down some det cord for the occasion.



"A high-velocity rifle bullet can impact some explosives and make it explode. On others, it will do nothing at all."

But will a high velocity bullet detonate an AN/AL mix? Or deflagrate it?




With water, you are closer to the case with an explosive.
Hit water slowly, and you will see nothing. Hit it really, really hard, as fast as you can, with a lead pipe, and you will see nothing. The pipe will be wet, nothing more. Yet shoot it with a lead bullet, and it will flatten it like a pancake. Watch carefully, though, and you will see no difference with the naked eye (or a normal video camera) in what happens to the water.



"The energy transfer occurs fast enough, and the explosive goes bang, and detonates. The energy tranfer takes too long, no detonation."

Hence compression, correct? Meaning, the explosive to react best, would need to be contained, and the conatiner hold the compression wave long enough for the explosive to react. This makes sense for the AN/AL mix that i described above, regarding shooting the mix in a container, but uncompressed, no go.




"Of course, some explosives will still deflagrate, which may be taken for detonation. Others will just sit there quietly."

Under your best judgement, do you think that the AN/AL mix as described above detonate?



" Or, you can use a big blasting cap to send a big enough shockwave into it."


Would a .223 suffice?


Glad to hear a voice of reason, a voice of knowledge. Thanks for your input.

I have a 7meg video, 23 seconds long. About three of my targes going off. This video was shot at a gun range. Anyone have somewhere where i could dump it, so that we all can view it? It is quite impressive, shows the shockwave traveling through the sand, and moving the sand. The last few seconds i threw in a frame of the AN/AL at the precise time of detonation, with fireball. Impressive. Note: these are only 6-8oz, mixes. Great quality movie.


Steve

PS, Vulture, how much gun experience did you say you had again?

[MightyQuinn®]

Email me.....I have a place to host that.

I own it, it's not a freebee

[vulture]

Should i have to repeat myself, again? Hmm, but how many of us can get ahold of Detcord on a regular basis? Hmmmm, lemme think, ohh wait, no i don't have to, not very many people at all. So lemme ask you again, "but how the hell do you think any of us are ever going to be able to measue the VoD on ANY explosion? [and withouth a massive undertaking in cost?]

Ehrm, I was implying you could make your own detcord...

Also, from your previous posts I was under the impression that it was no problem for you to get and/or make high explosives, unless I misunderstood that.

I just don't see AN beign capable of providing the necessary O2 to make a decent flash. has anyone out there made an AN based flash? What are the percentages?? WOuld love to try somtime. Have plenty of german black, and AN.

Quoting myself:
Did you try the OB mixture yet?

3NH4NO3 + 2Al ----> Al2O3 + 3N2 + 6H2O

I leave calculating the ratios to you...


PS, Vulture, how much gun experience did you say you had again?

Same reason as with the big charges. Firing a gun in my backyard would be a good way to end up in the police station.

[tjh]

Anybody want to get back to the topic of discussion--exploding targets? I would much rather hear from people who have something positive to contribute, rather than from some asswipe who wants to argue. Not much has been said by people who have real experience with target mixtures. I want to hear about how you used AN/AL for target shooting and as a booster for other explosives.

How many out there have a positive attitude and will go out and try it this weekend? Please report what you will do, the size of your charge, the caliber of bullet, or the type of explosive you will boost. Success or failure, we want to hear about it. Video or pictures would be appreciated.

I also want to remind you that I'd like to hear about other target mixtures you have had success with. I know there are other shooters out there. Give us some ideas, and let's keep this discussion alive. :D

[EP]

Even though you aren't happy with vulture, it's usually not a good idea to call a senior member an "asswipe."

[tjh]

What made you think I was focusing on Vulture? I didn't say Vulture was an asswipe. I merely stated that I wanted to hear from people with something positive to say, rather than some asswipe who wants to argue. Several people have been arguing. Of course, my reference was purposely vague, I'll admit.

But, back on the subject--Please try out AN/AL target mix over the weekend. Let us hear about your results.

[MightyQuinn®]

Hve no fear.....TJH.....

I hope to do JUST that! I am fully capable of documenting my work and plan to do so.

I shoot these targets on a regular basis, but am done buying them. I plan to make my own. Not only that, but I plan to get this mixture to detonate with a cap made by me.

All through the process I will be using digital media to convey the process to others.

Folks like Vulture keep the wheels moving, keep the brain thinking. Devils advocate is wise.......certainly wise when dealing with energetic materials.



Time for an hour or so in the archives.....Semper Fi.

[vulture]

If *someone* would want to keep this discussion alive, *someone* shouldn't call other members full of themselves or asswipes and *someone* should get off their lazy ass and try it themselves instead of playing expert and being a cunt.

Ofcourse, I'm absolutely NOT referring to tjh!

</pun>

:rolleyes:

[Sonny Jim]

I don't really see what the point to all this arguing is. Whether technically they detonate or deflagerate, they create the desired effect, in that they do explode when they get hit by a bullet. Surely for the simple purpose of making a bag, some smoke and giving a beating to ajacent objects, whether technically it detonates or deflagerates is not important.

Personally I do not think they do detonate. I am reminded of when I tried mixing a small amount of KClO3 and sulphur. As you know this mixture is known for amoung other things impact sensetivity. I once made two small equal piles, lit one and clouted the other with a hammer. While the one that was lit burned, the one that was hit 'exploded', yet did not detonate. I think the same is probably happening here.

[steve smith]

And isn't that what it's all about!!!!????

at last count, 704 viewings for this thread alone. And all that in only, what less than 2 weeks??

Ok, i'll admit, i'm an asswipe, a complete asswipe. Especially since i *know* that this shit (thank you) detonates. I *feel* it detonating, unlike deflagration. I must say, i am NOT, by ANY chance a chemical explosive engineer. But lemme tell you, at least i have EXPERIENCE in shooting guns, and blowing things up. What might you ask in shooting? What caliber would you like to know about, or, what type of weapon would you like to clean? What would YOU like to blow up today? Railroads? roads? cars? airplanes? bridges? You see, it's all about practicality. Anyone can read, not anyone can actually practice, much less get PAID to do what needs to be done. And (i hate starting sentences with "and") that's the rub ppl., the real honest to goodness blowing things up rub, ain't it!?



"not a good idea to call a senior member an "asswipe."

Your right, what was a senior member, maybe the length if time they've had their login???? (should we check) Oh no, was that maybe, an administrator? Megalomaniac? i am sure he has been lurking around this thread a few times, it's only gotten 704 hits. Cause, you know, anyone can post their "ideas".
SO YES, i will have that video on a site in a few days, for those of you that are interested in viewing shockwaves traveling over desert floors, and viewing directional shockwaves.


So like i was saying, as stated above, it isn't THAT easy to get ahold of some stuff, like say for instance, detcord. Especially making detcord with the same density throughout, with the same consistent quality. Anyone have a blackmatch machine? Yea, i didn't think so. (but i do, i really really do! Ever seen weingart's?) Commercially made detcord isn't anything that you could make yourself. So, Ehrm, i AM, Ehrm, implying that it isn't THAT easy to making detcord, Ehrm, for a SCIENTIFIC purpose, when measuring VOD. SO i, Ehrm, guess this begs the question (being VAGUE), what's the BEST way to make detcord? let's start this thread in say, high explosive? Ohh gee, did i just START a thread, named "making your own detcord"? Since i have never made this stuff, but i, Ehrm, know that someone actually has on this thread, cause Ehrm, it was so easy to make, Ehrm, could, maybe, be the second post. Thank you.

Back to the whole AN/AL issue, i state, again, that i don't think that AN could produce enough O2, on a basis of enough, or fast enough, to turn the mix into flash. (therefore, turning the mix into deflagration) Is there ANYONE that has made a flash based off of AN out there!?? I have NEVER heard of it, and i really don't want to "leave calculating the ratios to [me]..." Cause, rememeber, i "ain't no chemical engineer".

We ALL know theory, and all we know that practicality part. Only some of us are actually ABLE to practice it all. Because, we [I] don't have to worry about this "be[ing] a good way to end up in the police station.", unlike some.

My money is behind Mr. MightyQuinn. He's out there this weekend, using finley ground AN, and 5% Al, flake AL 325mesh. (would this be considered pandering?)

So yes, Mr. Sonny Jim, the difference is really in the "jesus, what the hell was that!" But i guess, if you have never really experienced a 50lb blast (or even a 1lb blast from 50ft), from 600feet, you've never really experienced anything at all.

The difference is not that elementary, it is far from that. Like MightyQuinn said, "Devils advocate is wise.......certainly wise when dealing with energetic materials."


Steve,
The only easy day, was yesterday!

[Sonny Jim]

A quote from the rules:

'This is the person who'll argue till the end of time that their idea is the greatest thing since sliced bread, even after 50 people who know better tell them it's crap, simply because they can't admit their idea was crap to begin with and would rather go down with the ship then let what little ego they have get deflated by admission of stupidity'

I think you're in danger or falling under that category. You've made your point, and now all your doing is repeating yourself, getting more flustered as time goes on, and as a result you are starting to talk crap.

What on earth does the hit number have to do with anything? And do you really think that you are the only one here who has explosive experience? This is the EXPLOSIVES and weapons forum after all, although for you soon it may just become a site you can't access :rolleyes:

Let it go.

[vulture]

Steve, it seems that you seem to think that someone called you an asswipe, which is not the case.

I appreciate your efforts in doing practical tests, contrary to tjh who's sitting on his ass screaming around somebody should try it and that he is right, period.

Back to the whole AN/AL issue, i state, again, that i don't think that AN could produce enough O2, on a basis of enough, or fast enough, to turn the mix into flash.

Ammoniumnitrate is an oxidizer! I think you need to review a bit of BASIC chemistry before going further onto this one. Ever heard of AN blackpowder?
Substituting C for Al will also produce a compound capable of deflagration (and detonation when initiated by a cap) but only with much greater force.

Calculating ratios from a reaction equation is something mandatory to master when messing with explosives!

Look up the molecular weight of the compounds....it's piss easy from there.

I'd be testing this shit myself if it weren't for a thermodynamics examination I have to study for...oh the irony...

[steve smith]

"I think you're in danger or falling under that category. You've made your point,"

Your right, in the sense that i have made my point, but somone keeps telling me i am wrong, and using some partialy incorrect reasoning. I could have stopped at the VERY first post, but in order to have a lively discussion, i haven't.


"is the greatest thing since sliced bread, even after 50 people who know better tell them it's crap,

I hope your not refering to me, because you obvously have NOT read my posts. I have conceded that some of my analogies were bad, and have quite bluntly said that i was wrong. I do not think my ideas are better than sliced bread, cause it's not what you know that's going to kill you, it's what you don't. That is, unless, you only know this stuff via books and studying. And only deal with it via books and studying. Anyone else would like to step in here and say that they have been wrong, Ehrm?

"What on earth does the hit number have to do with anything?"

as you can see form my posts, i don't "cherry pick" my arguments, i argue every point. it takes longer, but get's my point across. It also sets me up to be wrong more often. But, rather be wrong, than dead.

Exactly what i stated above, it's not what you know what's going to kill you, it's what you don't know. 700+ viewings, this means people are OBVIOUSLY interested in what is being said, unfortuantly not very people are willing to come forward and talk about it. Maybe this idea is (of AN/AL targets) is the best idea since sliced bread, go figure.

I will make this outwardly request, as TJH has: if anyone has played with sensitizing this mix even more, or create a pre-target to make the AN/AL mix go off easier, post your ideas. Even your theoretical ideas. THIS is what it is all about.



"Ammoniumnitrate is an oxidizer! I think you need to review a bit of BASIC chemistry before going further onto this one. Ever heard of AN blackpowder?"

Gee, Vulture, did i strike a nerve? DId i maybe specifically STATE what an oxidizer was? Did i maybe state that simply mixing an oxidizer and a fuel, did NOT constitute a flash mix? OR was i under the impression that YOU could somehow conjour up a flash based mix from Sodium Nitrate?

Blackpowder, is by NO means a FLASH powder. they are two COMPLETLY different items. Period. I have shot a .223 through blackpowder, and no go. I have shot a .223 through an an/al mix, and you get a shockwave. (notice i did NOT say detonation, what a nice guy i am, hahaha..) I am not trying prove this by that analogy, just stating.

I want to ask one more time, more specifically, has anyone ever seen or made an AN based flashpowder mix? I don't care, nor want to know about mixes that use other oxidizers in them. I want AN only oxidizers based mixes. Let's start this thread under Pyrotechnics, i yes, will be the first poster. Anyone else would like to, Ehrm, post second, Ehrm?



"Calculating ratios from a reaction equation is something mandatory to master when messing with explosives!"

Hmmm, does this mean that government qualification blasting tests to blast commercially includes chemistry? I dunno what kind of blasters you have talked to, but some i wouldn't trust trying to cook, much less understand the OB's. EDIT: Yes, some test DO include BASIC chemistry, but not --real-- chemistry with OB's, equations and so forth


"shit myself if it weren't for a thermodynamics examination I have to study for...oh the irony..."

Yes, i think there's the rub right there. Books.





"although for you soon it may just become a site you can't access"

yea, i keep forgetting SonnyJim, it's a place that i would be banned for putting forth ideas, experience and questions, under -every- post of mine. As contrary to your two posts were direct personal attacks on people. Let's talk AN/AL mixes. I see what your saying SonnyJim, and i understand. This is why the tone of this post has already changed.

Lastly, i have NEVER said that i was the ONLY person in here who had experience with explosives, quite the contrary. I was comparing myself to another person, who had no experience with guns and field experience. I have fessed up to my incorrect analogies, and my incorrect ideas. I have learned, and have nothing to lose, but my fingers. Anyone else want to chime in?

I think i have done pretty well, and this thread has done pretty well. Spurring two more threads, with items that have never been really talked about.


I want to know, would it be possible to add a chemical, such as an oxidizer to get this mix to go off any easier? This would be a great question for Mr. Vulture. As he is the chemistry whiz around here. (I have said many times, "I ain't no chemical engineer")


And again, lastly, (for the 2nd, or 3rd time) what would be a way to prove that this AN/AL particular mix detonates? Or, better, deflagrates?

Steve

[Sonny Jim]

Umm, ammonium nitrate is an oxidiser.

I cant think of any back yard ways of testing for a specific VOD, but how about this.

Take two charges of equal mass, shoot one, and detonate the other the old fasioned way. Compare the results. I would be only too happy to test this myself but I'm fresh out of high power rifles. England's great and all but it only takes one nutcase to get anything banned over here.

It's hardly a foolproof method, but a comparison between a known detonation and a possible one may be useful to provide some insight.

[vulture]

Did i maybe state that simply mixing an oxidizer and a fuel, did NOT constitute a flash mix? OR was i under the impression that YOU could somehow conjour up a flash based mix from Sodium Nitrate?

Yes indeed, look at the PFP database,there are sodiumnitrate flash mixes! A flash mixture is a pyrotechnic mixture that burns emitting a great amount of light. Most oxidizer + Al/Mg/Ti/Zr mixes fall under this definition and can be used as such!

Hmmm, does this mean that government qualification blasting tests to blast commercially includes chemistry? I dunno what kind of blasters you have talked to, but some i wouldn't trust trying to cook, much less understand the OB's. EDIT: Yes, some test DO include BASIC chemistry, but not --real-- chemistry with OB's, equations and so forth

Are you working for the government? Such knowledge is mandatory if you're making your own explosives, to predict possible nasty side reactions! Commercial mixes often have patented stabilizers added that eliminate the need of worrying about side reactions!

[zaibatsu]

Next post will greatly annoy me. Unless there's new information, or practical results (or comments on the above), watch out for your user status, may change to begin with B...

[MightyQuinn®]

I have a brief range report. This weekend brought some nicer weather so the shooters were out in force. I had to make my experiments kind of stealth (hidden in car) and no filming was done due to me being in stealth mode at the range. (Sometimes it’s not prudent to piss off certain members of the club and attempting to blow up propane tanks qualifies as pissing someone off)

Anyhow. I have not done enough research to make a primary yet, so I had to figure out something to test this deflagration business.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, be deflagration would indicate the presence of flame, correct? So......on that assumption I did the following:

I had 2 propane tanks laying around the basement from a couple of grills I picked out of the garbage and stripped. Each tank was roughly half full and they have the "old" style valve that cannot be refilled any more.

I mixed up 3 targets as per instructions (220g of AN and around 5g AL/Titanium Sponge powder from kit) I mix the targets in a separate container and then pour back in to target bottles to assure proper mixture.

To one tank I taped one target. To the other, I taped two targets. I waited for the range to clear, close and darken up a little. My buddy and I marched the targets out to 200y and chained them to a 20F piece of railroad tie. I chained them to keep them from pulling a rocket and flying off somewhere (toward me mainly)

Ok….my friend and I suit up in all the Kevlar we own and get ready to shoot. I am shooting standard steel/copper FMJ MILSURP 1954 Mauser ammo. Nothing fancy. I have my buddy set up to shoot an incendiary/tracer ammo at the tanks should I not get ignition.

I take the shot at the first tank/target combination. I am assuming I will get a nice fireball if deflagration occurs. Well….what happened was a Boom! There was NO flash, no fireball, nothing but a slight cloud of yellow smoke. I had my buddy fire at it twice with the I/T ammo to ignite any fuel remaining, but he was unable to ignite the fuel. We waited a couple of minutes and walked up to targets. The was a huge gas smell, so we decided not to fuck around out at the targets long. The target beached the tank with a crack about 8” long and surely released gas, but no fire nor discoloration on the once white tank.

We backed back to the firing line and repeated process on the tank with 2 targets. I shot it, it went BOOM louder…..no flash, no flame. Buddy opened up with the I/T’s to try and ignite gas. Nothing, no flame, no nothing. This tank looked much like the other one did sans for a larger deeper crack (more tank deformation)

My buddy and I tossed the tanks aside (in some brush) when we were done, but had to beat feet quickly. Mainly because I lit an old mortor I had with me and the BOOM from that was LOUD and 200+ feet in the air (sure to draw attention). Next time I go to the range, I will attempt to photograph the tank hulls, but there is not much to see.

So, as far as I and my far-from-scientific research goes, I would conclude these target detonate.

I expect to promptly be told am full of shit or some such…..so be it.

[tjh]

Great job MightyQuinn!!!!

No flame, and no flash!! But powerful enough to split the tanks. I guess that's why ammonium nitrate is the main ingrediant in permissible explosives--because it detonates without flame/flash for use in mining operations where buildup of gases in underground mines can themselves lead to explosions. Your evidence seems to dismiss the argument that ANAL deflagrates like flashpowder.

I just got off of my lazy ass and tried something similar. Yesterday, I placed a gasoline filled plastic jug behind one of my ANAL targets and shot it with a .223. The target detonated fine, but the gasoline just sprayed everywhere and failed to ignite. Same thing that happened to your propane bottles. More evidence of detonation without flame or flash.

What have your experiments produced Vulture? We would like to hear from you, or have you been sitting on your lazy ass lately?

Keep those experiences and information coming folks!

[vulture]

What have your experiments produced Vulture? We would like to hear from you, or have you been sitting on your lazy ass lately?

Are you blind, just plain stupid or only trying to piss me off?

This is yet the second time I have to requote myself:

I'd be testing this shit myself if it weren't for a thermodynamics examination I have to study for...oh the irony...

If someone's clogging up this thread with useless comments, it's you, because it seems you need everything to be repeated twice to get the slightest grab of it.

Same thing that happened to your propane bottles. More evidence of detonation without flame or flash.

Have you ever considered the fact that:

A) The Al content is at or below 5%, so any flash will be hard to notice.
B) There might be a flash which could either be obscured by smoke or pass to quickly to be noticed by the human eye.

For example, the flash of 10g KMnO4/Mg is very hard to notice in daylight, yet in the dark it's extremely blinding.

Also, I fail to see the relevance of attaching the targets to propane tanks or gasoline jugs.

Did you ever think of what happens when a tank full with gas is suddenly heated at one point? The AN/Al charge was so small compared to the huge amount of gas in the bottle that the energy absorbed by the suddenly expanding gas could have prevented ignition.

Also, cracking propane tanks usually go bang....

Do the test without tanks and other shit on a simple metal plate and compare dent with cap detonated mixture. THAT is a representative test.

[Rhadon]

Alright tjh, you're banned now. Our leniency didn't pay off...

[Guerilla]

Sorry for lateness, but I'm just wondering this detcord method, in determining whether AN/Al detonates from a bullet impact or not.. Wouldn't the mix detonate eventually anyway when it meets the first end of the detcord?? on the presumption that an improvised detcord would detonate from a possibly deflagrating explosive in the first place..

not trying to prove anyone wrong, using Dautriche method on this one just seems a bit inconvenient.

[steve smith]

"Take two charges of equal mass, shoot one, and detonate the other the old fasioned way. Compare the results."

Yes, i ahve done this before, many times. I have taken the following mixes and used a cap with them: AN/AL, ANNM, ANFO, AN/NM/AL, Pot. Chlorate/NM, Pot Chlorate/Al, Pot Perch/NM, Pot perch/AL. I then, shot each mix with a .223 Unfortuanlty i did NOT get all of the results on tape, so i won't be able to show everyone. But lemme tell you, the AN/AL mix wehn shot at witha .223, sounds better than with a cap. Some went, some didn't. I don't think the AN/NM, ANFO mixes went, but i will need to check that..

I have also shot the AN/AL against a railraod plate, 1inch thick, and have used a cap against another. LEmme tell you bout the result. They aer the same. They crack the back of the plate open.. Amazing. Simply aweing...



"the PFP database,there are sodiumnitrate flash mixes"

Yes, and you actually only find one. Look at the ratio there, 86/14. not very fuel rich if you ask me. What does this tell you? Dunno if it is even worht a dime, but i might as well try it.




"mandatory if you're making your own explosives, to predict possible nasty side reactions!"

Must have misunderstood me, i meant shooters, not explosive chemists. The difference in the fact that one group simply uses, the other makes/creates. Ever met any blasters? an eclectic group some of them they are...



"correct me if I am wrong, be deflagration would indicate the presence of flame, correct?"

Yes, but not for AN. I am amazed vulture isn't already all over this one. Especialyl since it's trying to prove his point of view incorrect.

An explosion consists of two parts. There is the inital shock wave, which creates the actual damage, then there is the fireball. The fireball is reliant upon the shockwave, but the shockwave could care less about the fireball. After the shockwave detonates through, it transfers it's energy, the fireball ensues. Ever seen a tomahawk go off, maybe a JDAM? There is a massive frieball afterwards. Ever seen TNT go off, there's a BIG fireball. No matter what, there would STILL be a flame, whether or not it actually detonated. I do believe you, trust me. I have done this MANY TIMES.



"s (220g of AN and around 5g AL/Titanium Sponge powder from kit) '

You need to increase the amount of AL/Titanium Sponge powder by about 6 grams. Right now, your only running at 2%, a bit low.(but it will still go boom with 1%, simply amazing.)



"Ok….my friend and I suit up in all the Kevlar we own and get ready to shoot."

Dude, we need to go out shooting sometime. Seriously.

"I take the shot at the first tank/target combination. I am assuming I will get a nice fireball if deflagration occurs. Well….what happened was a Boom! There was NO flash, no fireball, nothing but a slight cloud of yellow smoke"

Sounds right! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, i am smiling like a proud father! ahhhh.... i need to go take a timeout..


"Buddy opened up with the I/T’s to try and ignite gas. Nothing, no flame, no nothing".

See, here's the problem. AN explsoives just don't produce any sort of real fireball. I have seen them, i have them on tape. WHen they go, they go fast and quickly. Completly unlike TNT. BUT, the shockwave they produce, works.


" I would conclude these target detonate."

Unfortuantly, i dunno if could really truly say that one could draw that conclusion form this experiment. Watch what i have to say to vulture's response, you'll be amazed.


"I expect to promptly be told am full of shit or some such…..so be it."

Nah, since TJH is gone, you won't be called an asswipe. I really truly congratulate you on your efforts, and i do think you did a great job. Next time you goto the range, go about it this way. Go right up to the range safety officer, and sya to him: "i bought these really cool little reactive targets at the gun show a few weeks ago, and wantt o try them. " Be sure to have a few excuse ready for when people comeup to you and ask question such as where theycan buy them, if they can buyt hem form you,but you'llhave to tel them you can't, as that would be illegal. Make sure to only use smaller ones, and package them professionaly looking. Paper bags look good. wrapped tighly. Fake labels are always good.



"where buildup of gases in underground mines can themselves lead to explosion"

Not exactly. Coal minig operations still have underground fires from AN explsoves.


"More evidence of detonation without flame or flash."

Just wait till what i have to say, when i get around to vultures response.


"sitting on your lazy ass lately?"

Ohh my, issues. Touchy aren't we?

"just plain stupid or only trying to piss me off?"
Prolly the latter... Someone has to answer the questions other put forth....

"This is yet the second time I have to requote myself"
don't get chintzy on us here Mr. Vulture. I have repeated myself plenty of times with you.


"There might be a flash which could either be obscured by smoke or pass to quickly to be noticed by the human eye."
Uhmm, one question Mr. Vulture. In order to get smoke, there has to be what? SO, in order for the flash to "be obscured by smoke", the flash has to come FIRST? correct? Denied.


"to quickly to be noticed by the human eye."
Now were getting somewhere. Yes, you are right, but not all the time (for the human eye to catch the flash that is). The larger the blast, the larger the fireball I have two pics, the first of a traget going off, the second of a 40lb ANNM, blast. If you were to increase the al content, you'd defiantly see the flash. At 5%, you won't see it all the time, but you still can see it. DO the targets at night. You'll se a quick, but definite flash.



"Also, I fail to see the relevance of attaching the targets to propane tanks or gasoline jugs."

Ummm, maybe because of exactly what MightyQuinn said before. Deflagration includes a fireball, also what you specifically stated before. Would you like me to requote, YOUR quote? So, the fireball, if deflagration occured, would ignite the gasoline or propane.

" full with gas is suddenly heated at one point"
yes, the saftey valve release the overpressure, slowly. Produces a nice flame column, lemme tell you.

"Also, cracking propane tanks usually go bang...."
No they don't, they make the sound that sounds like high pressure gas makes when escaping out of a small hole. I've done it

Lemme tell you what i have done with propane tanks and 5 gallon buckets full of gasoline.

I have shot propane tanks with bullets, with tracers, with detonated ANNM as well as AN/AL charges. Never went. But hold on.

I have taken 5 gallon buckets full of Gasoline, gas/diesel, diesel. i have lite them afire, in full flaming glory. I have put AN/AL target below them, flaming and not flaming. No go. But hold on.

I have DETONATED, with a CAP, AN/AL, AN/AM, target sizes, INSIDE the 5 gallon buckets. Meaning, the devices were floating INSIDE the gasoline, while flaming and not flaming. No go.

I am not going to try all these things again, with such major gas prices today, it would cost me big bucks and whammies, just to spread fresh gasoline onto the desert floor. NOt into that idea.

I have put a bit of C4 under a 5 gallon bucket full of gas, and let her rip. Oh, and rip she did. Now are you gong to tell me that the C4 deflagrated?

Lastly, for shits, grins and giggles. I took a 35gram charge of flash, with titanium shavings. I placed the charge INSIDE a 20gallon GAS tank, with 3-5gallons of gas. I swished aorund the fuel, and blewinto it. Capped the top, and closed the circuit. What did i get? I'll tell you in my next post. But in the meantime, especially vulture, what happened? You'll be throughly amazed.

Vulture, you need to find an area not so well populated, and actually TRY the things that MightyQuinn, and I have done. It's like talkign to brick wall sometimes. TJH, although blunt, rude, obnoxious as he was, did have a point. I realize, school is more important, but you need start tellign us waht you plan on doing to prove this wrong, or at least, i'll do it for you, jsut tell me what i need to do. Obviosly, i am researching the dautriche method.


"using Dautriche method on this one just seems a bit inconvenient."
It is, but being the assiwipes that i am, i am willign to try. I always wanted to find the VOD on my AN/AL mixes, as well as other AN mixes that i do all the time...

I am goign to let Mr. Vulture respond to this, as he has a good understanding as to the abstract of the Dautriche method, and how it works. Let her rip vulture!



Steve
"the only easy day, was yesterday..."

"England's great and all but it only takes one nutcase to get anything banned over here."

I feel for you SonnyJim, i really, really do. WOuld you like me send you an application for the NRA? I'll extend my offer to go have a shit eating grin good time to you as well, the same one i offered to Mr. Vulture.

[steve smith]

The first and second is an a6, being "disabled" by a 10lb an/nm device. Inside a metal canister. Notice how big the firball is. Note the shockwave along the ground.

The third pic is of a detonating AN/AL target. Nitice how the flame is creeping through the tape. Compare the target in the foreground. They are exactly the same.


Lastly, and the best. This is a 35-40lb shot. the was this: HMTD, 2-3grams of c4, an/al, then the final, an/nm.

All shots were done under the direct supervision of qualified, and liscened Blasting engineers. This was not your backyard demo. This was, a training exercise.


Steve

------------------

These attachments are way too large! Images of that quality can be compressed much better.

Rhadon

PS: It's not necessary to sign posts with your name as it's already standing next to each of your posts.

[MightyQuinn®]

I know I am dredging up an old topic, but I believe this is the way to do it.

For the people wondering what it is exactly I am using in these targets (purchased) here it is; directly from the patent.

United States Patent Application 20030033952

[0006] The Tannerite Targets are manufactured in my Federally licensed manufacturing plant under my Type 20 license. The Ammonia Perchlorate is added to the Explosive Grade Ammonia Nitrate once the Ammonia Nitrate prills are milled into a powder of 200 mesh. The Oxidizer solution is then funneled into the target containers and the labels attached. The lids are sealed. The catalyst is bottled with 90% Explosive Grade Aluminum powder, 5% Titanium powder and 5% Zirconium. (See attached drawing for details)

The amount of “catalyst" used is subject to the measuring/weighing whim of the user.

I tend to weigh out my “catalyst" charges in advance so as to acquire uniform reactions, but in my first dealings with the stuff I simply threw in a teaspoon full and they worked fine. The manufacturer advised me to mix a little “lean” to improve the detonation. (Yes, I said detonation.) :P


http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=tannerite&OS=tannerite&RS=tannerite

[Thesenator]

I've mixed and detonated AN/AL targets many times. It does detonate.

The first experiment I ever did with it was using the prilled AN out of a coldpak instant cold dressing. I cut the bag, removed the water bag from inside, crushed the prills with my leatherman to about sugar consistancy, added about 1/2 tsp of 325 mesh bright aluminum, mixed to a uniform color and shot it with a .223 rifle from 25meters. It detonated instantly.

I don't understand why there is so much doubt about AN/AL mixtures detonating with a rifle bullet.....I've done it hundreds of times since, in sizes of 1/2 pound to 3 pounds. Never has there been any noticeable fireball or any sign of burned debris.

I've mixed them in baggies, film containers, plastic bottles the same as Tannerite comes in, plastic coffes jars, large plastic vitamin bottles, and even plastic milk jugs for the large ones.

I have cut off angle iron at ground level using a 1/2 pounder simply placed in the V so it directed away from my direction. Cut clean off at ground level.

Would a deflagration do that? I doubt it.

+++++++

Any old-timers remember the great "Flash Deflagerates/Detonates" debate, and how many people got banned over it?

NBK

[The_Duke]

The kinetic energy formed on impact causes the detonation. This has been covered before...:rolleyes:

Edit: Oh yea, "The final flashpowder contest", haha it was nice to read over that thread again.:p

[Lewis]

I haven't actually painstakingly gone over this thread to see if this had been answered either directly or indirectly, so I apologize if I'm creating needless redundancy.

Seeing as people appear to be generally saying that AN detonates, does that mean spherical Al will have similar results in an AN/Al, even though it does not work in flash?

I'm going to test this soon, but I'd appreciate it if I could know if this will be a complete waste or not before hand.

[nbk2000]

Even failed experiments are not a waste of time, so proceed as if we weren't even here, and find out for yourself. :)

[Thesenator]

Seeing as people appear to be generally saying that AN detonates, does that mean spherical Al will have similar results in an AN/Al, even though it does not work in flash?

Don't bother with the spherical AL and AN, it doesn't work well at all. I've tried it and out of 20 or so targets mixed, only one worked compared to 100% with bright flake 325-400 mesh or dark pyro aluminum.


Do NOT quote whole posts! :mad:

[Lewis]

I wasn't planning on shooting it. I was going to use something roughly akin to a blasting cap to set off the mixture.

[jagster]

Question for you guys. Does ammonium perchlorate help sensitize the mixture? As this is what daniel tanner uses. Is it worth getting some? I'm trying to set this stuff off with a .17 HMR, 2550 fps. Has anyone had any luck with those? I also haven't used good flake AL though, will on 4th weekend :).

Also is there a way to dry out the NH4NO3? Just put in an oven I guess and make sure it doesn't get above the breakdown tempature?

An what does the titanium sponge and ziconium accomplish in his mixture? There is a pretty insignificant amount (5% of the already 1/8 fuel mixture with oxidizer)..does it serve a purpose or make more smoke or what?

Thanks!

[gunsmoke]

I just tryed to make one and filled up a 8oz plastic bottle with AN with 1 tsp AL packed it tight shot at it with a
.223 all that happened was the thing ruptured.Used 34-0-0 fertlizer 325 mesh dark aluminum
there must be something I am missing

[jagster]

Was it 5%? I guess dark means flake. I know i've tried it guestimating before and if you use MORE fuel from my experience, at least with a lower power rifle it does NOT detonate.

I bought ammonium perchlorate and mixed in and I used pyroaluminum.com and it works :-). Hell it blew a 6 x 6 into many pieces...only 220 grams of it. Great stuff.

[Cobalt.45]

Edited: Ratio of mix found on similar post under Tannerite Exploding Targets thread.

[stupid939]

I have not saw anyone say that you could use APAN for an exploding target. In a ratio of 12:88, AP to AN, it is oxygen balanced. I have shot this mixture several times and it is reliably ignitable from a .22 bullet or a handgun load. I use 50 gram targets, and leave the powder loose in a cardboard tube.

[Smoakie]

I have made these with success.

I grind the AN with a mortar and pestle to probably table salt consistancy. Its a little hard to tell because the AN is a lot more 'fluffy.'

I use AL bought off ebay that is advertised as 625 mesh but will not even begin to ignite when used in a standard 70/30 flash mix with perc. I mean it wont even burn much less make a bang so it is probably more like 300 mesh spherical with some fines.

I usually mix 94 grams AN with 6 grams AL and place in a plastic baggie and mix well. I then 'detonate' it with a .223 inside the plastic baggie. It has worked every time except the last time but the AN had been ground and sitting for awhile and had absorbed quite a bit of water.

I usually put the baggie up against some kind of backstop whether its an old propane tank, a stump, or a old fence post. I have not tried just hanging the baggie without a backstop, but I do know a 30-30 wont work.

The first time I ever did it was against a old 20lb standard grill propane tank. I figured it was going to be about like 20 grams of flash going off and got fairly close at about 40-50 feet. Lets just say I was a little dumbfounded when it went off. Quite a thump to the chest and pretty loud even with ear protection. I walked to the tank and was pretty darn suprised when there was a hole in it that I could stick my whole opened hand through (about a 8-9" diameter hole).

A five inch diameter fence post will have a 12-18" section where the baggie was missing afterwards with a good supply of tooth picks laying around.

I have been very suprised at the power of a 100 gram charge. I dont know if the guy that talked about a 220g charge on a propane tank was using the standard grill tank or something more heavy duty but I get a whole lot more than a crack. I actually had holes in the back of the tank where it blew pieces from the front side thru the back.

Just wanted to give my experience using these targets and spherical AL. If anyone wants pics of the propane tank I can put them on photobucket or similar hosting site.

[Lewis]

Wow, Smoakie. If what you say is true, it gives hope to all the people who got ripped off by PK Unlimited.

Too bad police attention made me throw out all my chemicals. :(

[Smoakie]

You got it, plans and kits unlimited out of california. I bought 10 pounds and was a little pissed at first. But I have found using it with the AN works great as well as with other pyro mixes for lots of sparks, so I'm not as upset.

Plus I made a ball mill a while ago and as soon as I get some steel media will see what happens when I let it sit in the mill for a few days.

[Bert]

I had not looked at the boomershoot.org site for a while. More experimental data is listed now.

A look at http://www.boomershoot.org/index.html
reveals that they don't use any Al in the production targets. Even more interesting, they don't use
nitro methane any more either. Cheap ethylene glycol antifreeze, ammonium nitrate (prills) and
potassium chlorate (fine powder) is the current mix. That's a CHEAP mix... According to their
site, it's sensitive to some high velocity .22 LR ammunition at 75 yards, which would make it
more sensitive than Tannerite in my experience.

(quoted from boomershoot web site)

http://www.boomershoot.org/general/EG.htm

1500 Grams Ammonium Nitrate. Prilled, not ground.
400 Grams Potassium Chlorate. 200 mesh powder.
3 tablespoons Ethylene Glycol. Cheap antifreeze with few or no preservatives.

Mix the EG with the AN until thoroughly blended.
Mix in the PC.

It will look very much like mixed curd size cottage cheese.

Seal in airtight containers.

Do not pack! The mixture must be slightly fluffy to detonate easily.

[iostream333]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't this result in the formation of ammonium chlorate? That sounds somewhat dangerous… The presence of ammonium chlorate would seem to explain the "spontaneous combustion" and various other described instabilities.

[Bert]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't this result in the formation of ammonium chlorate? That sounds somewhat dangerous…
Yes. First thing I though as well. But they've made several tons of these over the last 8 or so years. I emailed Joe Huffman about that back in 2002 when I first ran across the boomershoot.org site. I was not the first person to tell him that back then either... Apparently mixed dry it isn't quite as quick to develop problems as in water bound pyrotechnic compositions. I still wouldn't mix such things and store them.