silver acetylide problems

[iheardlikeaboom]

Hello all,

I have tried several times to detonate ammonium nitrate+nitromethane with a detonator containing at least 9grams of silver acetylide (in a copper tube). I never succeeded. I tried it also on TNB (trinitrobenzene) but it didn't work out either.
I was thinking of making some sort of shaped charge out with the copper detonator tube itself and the same amount of silver acetylide. Do i may have a chance of detonating ANNM this way?

Anyway, thanks a lot,

iheardlikeaboom

[simply RED]

Did you get the acetylide-nitrate complex properly?

Anyway, your first post-thread IS out of the forum rules!!!

[vulture]

silver acetylide in copper tubing....*shakes head in disbelief*

[Marvin]

Maybe you should have called yourself 'IheardlikeaHED'. First post starting a thread, asking a question and the wrong title for the chosen forum.

Gerry in usenet posts has previosly suggested people read the KINEPAC patents to find out how he made the mixture cap sensitive. Depending on if you are using a pure acetylide or the double salt the initiator could be very weak, even with 9 grams to play with. I would think a booster of a sensitive secondary would be the order of the day, or you could go for the popular brainless aproach of large amounts of AP putty, something that requires more balls than sense and only slightly more IQ points than remaining fingers.

vultures point about silver salts in copper casings is valid, but this is something you either pick up on or not. Redox does have some uses and it all helps with not getting yourself killed.

Heres hoping you read the forum rules and keep all your fingers.

[iheardlikeaboom]

Well my first post was pretty f.up then, and i sincerely apologize to all those that i may have deeply offended by neglecting this forum’s rules. I don’t know that much about forums. So peace and love to all of you and may Jesus bless you all with… well, that should do it :confused:

The silver acetylide is of good quality (made with an chemical expert, who replied several times on this forum i think). I didn’t insert those double salts straight into a copper tube, first in a straw, nicely sealed from all moisture. I also added Nickelnitrate+Hydrazine as a booster.

So, is my idea of a shaped charge with the copper detonator tube a silly one ?

Many thanks and humble regrets.

IheardlikeNOTHING

[Microtek]

This sounds like Philou's brand of detonator, so are you working with him, or simply following his advice ?
Anyways, if you use a booster then you only need enough primary ( silver acetylide nitrate ) to get the booster going. Then you should increase the amount of booster ( 0.5 - 1.0 g should be plenty - if it is a decent booster; I've never tried the trishydrazine nickelnitrate for lack of Ni ) to get a reliable detonator.
I don't think a shaped charge detonator will be very effective for transmitting detonation.

[Marvin]

My understanding is focused detonation is the norm for commercial caps. When placed against a metal plate they should leave a 'dot' at the focal point.

In general, Id be inclined to worry about the chemistry, and work on better physics later. If 9G is failing, theres a problem, rather than a need for improvement.

A drinking straw might be impeding the det wave but Ive never tried that primary, and I think Ive never heard of let alone used that booster. Is it pressed well, no voids, not a loose powder? High det velocity?

[GreenCoat]

Go back to square one:

1) Is the ammonium nitrate dry? How finely divided is it? What kind of container are you packing it into? Plastic or metal? What is the wall thickness and the diameter of the charge?
2) Is the nitromethane homemade or commercial? How old is it? How well are you mixing it with the ammonium nitrate?
3) Are you getting incomplete detonation or no detonation at all?
4) Have you ever detonated ANNM mixes before?

These are rhetorical questions. Your problem may not be the detonator at all, but the charge itself. ANNM mix, if well prepared, should go off with 9grams of AgC2. I realize that double salts are easier/faster/less complicated to make, but nothing will beat RDX or PETN as a booster. You could use either of those with AgC2 on top.

If you insist on using silver acetylide, you should make the double salt AgC2.AgN03 (do a search) as it has a faster detonation velocity. Good luck.

[iheardlikeaboom]

This sounds like Philou's brand of detonator, so are you working with him, or simply following his advice ? :cool:

Microtek


A drinking straw might be impeding the det wave but Ive never tried that primary, and I think Ive never heard of let alone used that booster. Is it pressed well, no voids, not a loose powder? High det velocity?

Marvin


Go back to square one:
Greencoat
1) Is the ammonium nitrate dry? How finely divided is it? What kind of container are you packing it into? Plastic or metal? What is the wall thickness and the diameter of the charge?
2) Is the nitromethane homemade or commercial? How old is it? How well are you mixing it with the ammonium nitrate?
3) Are you getting incomplete detonation or no detonation at all?
4) Have you ever detonated ANNM mixes before?

These are rhetorical questions. Your problem may not be the detonator at all, but the charge itself. ANNM mix, if well prepared, should go off with 9grams of AgC2. I realize that double salts are easier/faster/less complicated to make, but nothing will beat RDX or PETN as a booster. You could use either of those with AgC2 on top.

If you insist on using silver acetylide, you should make the double salt AgC2.AgN03 (do a search) as it has a faster detonation velocity. Good luck.

First of all, thanks for replying to all of you lads.

Microtek, you're a good detective, indeed i know Philou, and we occasionally try to detonate substances.

Marvin: It's not toughly pressed in the straw, just tightly tapped or packed. The nickelnitrate+hydrazine is supposed to have something like a 7000m/s det velocity.

Greencoat:1) the AN was definately dry, one of the test had AN from cold packs, another was from fertilizer. The container were steel. By the way, it was a steel square tube and it was ripped in 3 parts, so i suppose the detonator had at least some effect. the diameter of the blasting cap was about 1cm and the metal container, around 4cm and its wall thickness about 2mm. I think it contained roughly 300 grams of ANNM.
2)the nitromethane was commercial (99%), 3 years old. The mixing was done thoughroughly in a glass jar, with a rod.
3)Well, there was definately ANNM splattered all over the floor, so maybe just a small a part detonated, but i doubt it.
4) NO

The type of silver acetylide is Ag2C2. HNO3, so it has the better det velocity then the other double salts.
Would it be possible that the AN contained some sort of "protection", ie a substance that will unable it to function as an axplosive? Because, indeed it's weird that with such a strong detonator, the ANNM didn't go off. :(

MAny thanks,
IHOPEtohearlikeaboom

[simply RED]

Why don't you make urea nitrate and detonate it with 0.5 gram HMTD + 1 gram RDX or PETN , or 2 grams HMTD. 70-100 grams booster in electrolyte capacitor.
Safe, powerful, reliable.

[GreenCoat]

Would it be possible that the AN contained some sort of "protection", ie a substance that will unable it to function as an axplosive? Because, indeed it's weird that with such a strong detonator, the ANNM didn't go off. :(


When used as a fertilizer, the AN prills are commonly coated with a very thin layer of calcium stearate to help retard water absorption. If you ground the AN into a fine powder, the small amount of calcium stearate should not have made a difference, especially if you are using nitromethane as a sensitizer. Maybe you could try the same thing but with aluminum powder (9% by weight of the AN used) as the sensitizer? Also, you do realize the very unusual property of both urea nitrate and ammonium nitrate: their ease of detonation is inversely proportionate to the density of loading. Translation: Don't pack it in tightly, but as loosely as possible. Again, with nitromethane as a sensitizer, you will have some leeway in this regard.

Good luck.

[Marvin]

If you can say with certainty that the booster is completely detonating then the problem is not with the cap. This said, the loosly packed powder is doing you no favours and probably wouldnt support a decent det wave for focusing anyway.

In so much as detonators need pressing, one method in one of the fringe books uses a large tool the shape of an 'm' and a tree trunk. The det goes into a hole in the trunk and the tools lets you press the detonator (by pulling), with your body/head/hands on the oppasit side of the trunk nowhere neer in case it goes off.

I am under the impression that the double salts are all crystals of silver(I) acetylide and silver(I) nitrate in varous proportions formed in dilute nitric acid solution. I'm quite convinced such a salt would not stably contain nitric acid.

[thrall]

well, this might be off the discussion going on but as per the title(silver acytilide problem) I would say only one thing....Don't make it.I just made it few days ago.
I added ammonia to silver nitrate and passed acytelene through it.everything was fine and there was good enough yield.I filtered it and left it on the filter to dry.while it was almost dry i seperated the clumpd from the filter.And when it was completely dry(almost) Itried to poure it in a PLASTIC bowl and BOOM....It detonated when I was pouring it in the bowl.
As I've read it is very sesitive I made only very small amount and used plastic bowl but this thing is far more sensitive than some people may think of.

[vulture]

Plastic bowls are ideal for harvesting static electricity....

[iheardlikeaboom]

Why don't you make urea nitrate and detonate it with 0.5 gram HMTD + 1 gram RDX or PETN , or 2 grams HMTD. 70-100 grams booster in electrolyte capacitor.
Safe, powerful, reliable.
simply RED

To Simply Red and Greencoat, I do have some urea nitrate laying around. Well "I" isn't really correct, i'm just the "lab assistant", the real science whizz with whom i try out devices can't get hold of a computer right now.
I've read that the detonation velocity of urea nitrate is somewhere in between 3500 -- 4500 m/s ? This is unfortunately inferior to a good mix of ANNM.


In so much as detonators need pressing, one method in one of the fringe books uses a large tool the shape of an 'm' and a tree trunk. The det goes into a hole in the trunk and the tools lets you press the detonator (by pulling), with your body/head/hands on the oppasit side of the trunk nowhere neer in case it goes off.

[COLOR=DarkGreen]Marvin

To Marvin: Have you tried this "M press" with a tree trunk?


well, this might be off the discussion going on but as per the title(silver acytilide problem) I would say only one thing....Don't make it.I just made it few days ago.
I added ammonia to silver nitrate and passed acytelene through it.everything was fine and there was good enough yield.I filtered it and left it on the filter to dry.while it was almost dry i seperated the clumpd from the filter.And when it was completely dry(almost) Itried to poure it in a PLASTIC bowl and BOOM....It detonated when I was pouring it in the bowl.
As I've read it is very sesitive I made only very small amount and used plastic bowl but this thing is far more sensitive than some people may think of.
thrall View Public Profile

vulture

Plastic bowls are ideal for harvesting static electricity....

These double salts have often been made, and without any problems. So the static electricity may be the cause of the BOOM.

[Microtek]

What he made was not double salts, but simple Ag2C2. I have also had problems with Ag2C2 that wasn't part of a double salt. I think the explosions occur because of the sparks which are discharged when many non-conducting surfaces are separated. The phenomenon is called triboluminiscence, and can be observed when breaking sugar cubes in the dark. It is of course similar to other forms of static electricity.

[thrall]

Yes, I made silver acytelide(Ag2C2). When you mix enough ammonia to silver nitrate before passing acytelene you get silver acytelide and if you pass acytelene without adding ammonia you get double salt(Ag2C2.2AgNO3). I made double salt as well and it's perfactly OK. In fact I've used it in igniter match(inside light bulb) though it's said that double salt is corrosive yet I theorized that tungston is inert enough.
I used plastic bowl because it won't generate small sharpnels that penetrate skin(like glass). I made an amount less than a gram since the book(Improvised primery explosives) puts it in very sensitive class and for right reasons. It's a nasty stuff that generates pitch black(atomised carbon I suppose) on detonation.
@ Microteck
I seperated the stuff from filter and broken the mass into small clumps when it was almost dry(not dry). Is it possible that the stuff detonated because of breaking of a crystel?

Far as I think the stuff detanated because it IS VERY SESITIVE. Though I'm curious to know what other people's experience with this thing.

[Microtek]

As I said, I have experienced the same, very disconcerting, detonations when gently manipulating small piles of Ag2C2. I cannot say definately if it was the mechanical shock from a breaking crystal or the sparks generated in the triboluminiscence phenomenon that caused it ( or even a buildup of static electricity on the bowl ). I did, however, notice that even though the Ag2C2 has enough initiating power to get MHN going in small amounts, its mechanical effects such as brisance are incredibly feeble ( probably due to the absence of gaseous detonation products ), thus the accidental detonation of a pea-sized pile did not fracture the thin, and very fragile, plastic lid that it was kept in.
Likewise, there was no stinging sensation of shock in my fingers; ringing ears were the only effect.

[iheardlikeaboom]

Thrall:
Yes, I made silver acytelide(Ag2C2). When you mix enough ammonia to silver nitrate before passing acytelene you get silver acytelide and if you pass acytelene without adding ammonia you get double salt(Ag2C2.2AgNO3). I made double salt as well and it's perfactly OK.

Pardon my ignorance as i'm just a newbie here, but i thought that the term "double salts" was a general term given to the different kinds of Ag2C2. So basically, what i have, Ag2C2. HNO3 is called more precisely double salts, since i didn't add ammonia in the process of making it?

[simply RED]

I don't say to use UN as a base charge. Use it as a booster. 70-100 grams are enough to set off everything! And it can be set off with 1 gram hexogen or 2 grams HMTD or number 8 cap.
Why do you have to try very complicated sensitive low powerful explosives when you have this.

[vurr]

another silver-compound mentioned to explode at 140deg.C :
silver oxalate Ag2C2O4
sol.H2O: 0.0034 g/100g @ 18C (book from 1971;rus).
comments/results??

[kingspaz]

the way to ensure no Ag2C2 formation is to make an AgNO3 solution in dilute HNO3. i did this with Ca(NO3)2 and H2SO4 followed by filtration of the CaSO4 precipitate. after addition of the AgNO3 C2H2 was bubble through. Ag2C2*Ag2SO4 (i think) seems to be VERY mildly energetic so the small amount of Ag2SO4 left after addition of the nitrate serves to make the final product very slightly safer. i don't know why this HNO3 solution thing works but it seems to and federoff agrees.

i think people should do their homework before attempting synthesis of this compound as it can easily go wrong.