Easy Aluminium Powder #2

[poor man]

Sorry about the huge pictures, I tried twice to reduce them in size in Photobucket but both times when I put the new url in the pictures were the same.

OK, I realise that this is my first post here, but it does not bother me if I get banned, I just want to spread the word on a new Aluminium Powder method. I would have tried to help out other people but all the topics have been responded to by the time I get here.

I just thought I thought I would share my Al powder experiences from the last few days. I heard about 2 months ago of people thinking of using a dremel tool to get Al powder, but no one ever tried it and posted the results. Well a week ago I was at bunnings with a friend, and there was an angle grinder on special that he wanted to buy. That sparked the Al powder idea below. I looked in my shed, and sure enough there was an angle grinder with a metal grinder attachment. I put it to a can to test whether it would oxidise the particles coming off, create small enough Al powder to feasible as a method of making it, and finally to see whether it was collectable.

I crushed up some soft drink cans (I go through them like a bullet through butter!) and hammered them flat with a mallet on the shed floor, so that they were basically a lump of Al. I put 2 in my vice and began to grind, with a plastic bin (empty!) in the direction that the Al powder was thrown after being ground from the cans. Most particles were about half the size of - . - or smaller. But there were some chunks torn off where I had pressed too hard on the thin pieces of the cans. These shoot off at great speeds but don't cut you bad, even though they are very sharp. I collected the powder. It was a light grey colour and I sifted out the larger peices through a fine seive. I also ballmilled some for around 3 hours (shown below) and it turned into a very dark finer powder but still some of the larger pieces remained in the powder (as can be seen. The powder was actually quite abit darker but the camera flash made it look lighter). You can get around 15 grams from each can (20 if you grinded it all but some must be left to hold it in the vice) and with the Al being high purity (must be, impurities would cause the metal to be weaked or split from being rolled so thin (not just my thinking, but I read up on it)) and the paint and plastic layer only being many thousands of an inch thick, barely any decrease in effectiveness.

THE SECOND PIC BELOW IS MUCH LIGHTER THAN THE ACTUAL DUE TO A DARK SHED AND BRIGHT CAMERA FLASH!

The powder straight after...

http://img24.photobucket.com/albums/v71/poorman/IMGP1284.jpg

And once the crap was removed, and it was poured onto my benchtop...

http://img24.photobucket.com/albums/v71/poorman/IMGP1289.jpg

And then after 45 mins in my super dooper ball mill 8)

http://img24.photobucket.com/albums/v71/poorman/IMGP1285.jpg

I collected it in a bin and then collected what blew back out of the bin by sweeping it off my desk into a dustpan and brush, but I will improve my collection method later.

My Milling jar attachment to separate media from powder...

http://img24.photobucket.com/albums/v71/poorman/IMGP1313.jpg


The powder after 3 hours of on / off milling...Yes, I know It is fuck off dark and fine!

http://img24.photobucket.com/albums/v71/poorman/IMGP1311.jpg

The stains it leaves on paper that just won't come off...

http://img24.photobucket.com/albums/v71/poorman/IMGP1314.jpg

The angle grinder I used...

http://img24.photobucket.com/albums/v71/poorman/IMGP1297.jpg

Well, what can I say, high mesh Al powder in under 4 hours? I'm there!

I hope I don't get banned but can you please not delete this thread if I am?

[infernal]

I saw your post on "another" forum as well, but awesome work mate. Is there any chance you could provide some burn tests in flash compositions?

From the work you put into that amount, how long would you think grinding up 1lb of al powder would take?

And in regards to collecting the powder... would it possibly work to have a container full of water to collect it and minmize airborne aluminum?

[Hang-Man]

In the future (if you have one here) don't use such HUGE ASS IMAGES.

[~Phelixx~]

Nice method, although you could have considered posting this in the already existing thread "Easy aluminum powder, honestly". I believe it was created by Sonny Jim.
How do you know it is 600 mesh?

(Oh, and I would hurry up and crop those images. There is a max. size for *.jpg, 500 x 500.)

[Marvin]

Ok, hands up all the people that have not simply tried sanding aluminium to get powder. Come on, own up, there must be someone here. Anyone?

I vote this thread should have been called the 'I-Cant-believe-its-not-sanding-aluminium-to-get-powder' thread.

Using salt in a blender to process aluminium foil is clever, unexpected, and everything this thread isnt. When your age finally exceeds the few working neurons in your skull we look forward to your rejoining society as one of the intellectual underclasses.

infernal, aluminium powder should not be mixed with water.

[poor man]

Marvin I am sorry you feel that way about my post, but it is unbeleivably easy. I don't know how to crop images, because I am not very computer literate, but I will try.

[infernal]

Marvin if water isnt supposed to be mixed with al... what exactly are you putting in your blender with salt smartass?


Poorman, burn tests in flash would be great to see how this works out. Apparently people have been trying this with bars instead of cans and getting several hundred grams of powder in a 20 minute session.


Ill go with "i cant belive its not sanding" especially if the quality of the powder is high. sure beats blending for an hour and the mess is insane.

[poor man]

Well the reason why Al powder should not be mixed with water, is that the Al oxidises and gives of Hydrogen gas (very gradualy), so you, after a while would have Al2O3 once the water dried off. Besides most of the powder catches in the bin I put up anyway. You would be better off with some sort of hydrocarbon, but then the vapour could be extremely dangerous if something happened to spark so, not a good idea.

Sorry, but what does salt have to do with water?

Sorry almost forgot, I will go to the shop now and buy some KMnO4 and test burn with Sulfur and KMnO4. What ratio should I use do you think?

[infernal]

people were saying to use water + salt in the blender... i really didnt read up on the subject, but thanks for not being a cunt about answering simple questions.

cheers mate! I look forward to trying this meathod.

[scarletmanuka]

Great work Poor Man, that looks wickedly fine. Just one question though, what did you use for the milling media in your ball mill? Ihave lead balls, but I think they may be too soft for Al. Works good for charcoal and stuff.

[Mumble]

Marvin if water isnt supposed to be mixed with al... what exactly are you putting in your blender with salt smartass?


You put Aluminum foil in with the salt smartass. What would the point of mixing water in with the salt be? It'd still react. There is no water until the very end when you dissolve all the salt and filter the Al out. The whole 5 minutes it's in the water isn't enough time for it to react a whole lot. Perhaps you should go read that thread while you still can.

[poor man]

Before you read this, I was wondering, the KMnO4 I used started to turn brown and I had, had it for over 1 month and it has possibly been damp a few times. Does this mean some of it had begun to decompose into MnO2 and other things? As I notice when I get it on my hands then wash them it turns brown :confused:

So don't trust this as an accurate representation of how it goes as flash, as I also used about equal parts of each for this.

Well I just went to the shop to get some KMnO4 to try the fine stuff, but seeing as though it is sunday here, all the shops are closed (damn you god, why did you rest the seventh day?!) so I can only give you a run down of how the unmilled stuff worked.

Here is a pic of the unmilled Al burning in random ratio with KMnO4 and Sulfur...

http://img24.photobucket.com/albums/v71/poorman/Al1.jpg http://img24.photobucket.com/albums/v71/poorman/al2.jpg http://img24.photobucket.com/albums/v71/poorman/al3.jpg http://img24.photobucket.com/albums/v71/poorman/Al4.jpg http://img24.photobucket.com/albums/v71/poorman/al5.jpghttp://img24.photobucket.com/albums/v71/poorman/Al6.jpg

The last bit where it still burns with a tallish white flame is because there are larger pieces in there around - " - size because I could not separate them since my mum took my fine seive. Also this is not the resulting powder, but the light grey "powder" immediately after. The reason I have this is because I tested it for another forum.

Sorry, I don't know why am so forgetful today... The milling media I used were 1/2 inch round lead sinkers. They have not shown much sign of wearing yet but we will see. Also the burn time without including the tall flame at the end it .40 seconds, so not awsome, but the finer powder should be great when the shops actually open again.

[Caveman]

Brass rod 3/8 to 1/2 inch dia.; cut to 1/2 to 5/8 inch peices should work well. No chance of spark. Easy to find. Just a tad harder than alum.

[Hang-Man]

Well the reason why Al powder should not be mixed with water, is that the Al oxidises and gives of Hydrogen gas (very gradualy), so you, after a while would have Al2O3 once the water dried off. Besides most of the powder catches in the bin I put up anyway. You would be better off with some sort of hydrocarbon, but then the vapour could be extremely dangerous if something happened to spark so, not a good idea.

If I were pressed for time, it would suffice to say that this thread is shit. But I have time so I’ll explain:
1. Grinding down Al to get powder is not a new, original, or clever idea.
2. You're wrong all over the place, if the 'vapors' from a 'hydrocarbon' are at risk of catching fire in your 'lab', you had best find a new hobby (I recommend nothing that involves sharp objects, or small parts you could swallow) I mean what would you be doing? fireing the Al into gasoline? How about you use 'vegtable oil'.
3. You are clearly a dumbass as you are lighting a 'random' pyro mixture from 2 feet away with a BBQ lighter in a garage full of crap.
4. You're ignorance is a magnet for more dumbasses, people are going to think this is acceptable and start doing it themselves. Then shit posts will pop up everywhere and the form will collapse into anarchy. :eek:

I hope a mod closed this thread, or better yet, deletes it. (It's huge images are a waste of bandwidth)

[poor man]

If I were pressed for time, it would suffice to say that this thread is shit. But I have time so I’ll explain:
1. Grinding down Al to get powder is not a new, original, or clever idea.
2. You're wrong all over the place, if the 'vapors' from a 'hydrocarbon' are at risk of catching fire in your 'lab', you had best find a new hobby (I recommend nothing that involves sharp objects, or small parts you could swallow) I mean what would you be doing? fireing the Al into gasoline? How about you use 'vegtable oil'.
3. You are clearly a dumbass as you are lighting a 'random' pyro mixture from 2 feet away with a BBQ lighter in a garage full of crap.
4. You're ignorance is a magnet for more dumbasses, people are going to think this is acceptable and start doing it themselves. Then shit posts will pop up everywhere and the form will collapse into anarchy. :eek:

I hope a mod closed this thread, or better yet, deletes it. (It's huge images are a waste of bandwidth)

Seriously, So this did not help you at all, it may have helped some other people here. How is lighting it from two feet away with a pocket torch making me a dumbass? Anyway, you will be happy to know that I may not be back here. Some of you need to get off your high horse and see that while something may not help you, the world does not revolve around you, and other people may benefit from it.

Fine. Mods you can close it if you want, but at least I wasn't asking some simple "how du i make da flash pouder?!"

[Hang-Man]

I admit, that in light of that guy asking if ANFO can be 'detonated' with a fuse you look like Newton; but nobody gives a shit that you discovered how to grind down pop cans. Nobody gives a shit that made some shitty burn test, which was useless anyway because you put random amounts of stuff in it. All the time you spent posting and cropping piles of images, were wasted, because NOBODY GIVES A SHIT.

At least I don’t.

Edit:
Anyway, you will be happy to know that I won't be back here
-wtf is up with the whole martyrdom thing? Nobody gives a shit about that either.

[Microtek]

I think this method has merit, although perhaps not quite enough to warrant a thread of its own. For instance, I would have thought that grinding Al, especially with an angle grinder, would heat the dust enough to make it ignite in the air. Also, I was not aware that lead media is capable of milling Al.
That said, I would suggest that another way to collect the dust was found as large amounts of just about any airborne particulate is quite harmful.

[blindreeper]

Hang-man, just because you don't find it useful doesn't mean everyone else doesn't I have no interest in the engineering discourse or battlefield chemistry so I don't post there. But when you don't find somthing useful don't flame people. I bet you didn't know that you could make such fine mesh Al from aluminium cans. I found it very useful as I am going to mill some of my spherical Al. I didn't know I could do this in my mill with lead media. So lay off!

[poor man]

Hang-man, just because you don't find it useful doesn't mean everyone else doesn't I have no interest in the engineering discourse or battlefield chemistry so I don't post there. But when you don't find somthing useful don't flame people. I bet you didn't know that you could make such fine mesh Al from aluminium cans. I found it very useful as I am going to mill some of my spherical Al. I didn't know I could do this in my mill with lead media. So lay off!

Thanks Blind, I hope it is not just my mill though! I don't wan't to start pathetic quarrels with you hang-man, so I won't try and rebut some of your points made against me. But I will say that it is ignorant of you to assume I am a dumbass because I tested the burn in my shed. Where else do you expect me to test it that is so much better (And don't say outside because it is windy when the sea breeze is blowing here so everything would blow away).

Although I said I wouldn't be back, I just came to see what lame flaming I had received since last time I was here, but I only got blinds post which was fine :D

[mr.pyro]

I like the purple in the pictures, Is that flame giving off a purple color? Or is it you camera is just distorting because of the bright flame?

[Tuatara]

poor man : you have posted real results, from a real experiment, which I think is to be commended! Personally I too feel you were a bit close with your ignition - I'd like to see you stick around, so why not rig something that will put you at a safe distance?

[poor man]

Mr. Pyro, The purple is from my camera not being able to take the light. It actually burned whitish/organge.

Tautura, Although it may have seemed close, I am fairly comfortable with the amount I used, and I don't mind a few burns :cool: .

[Hang-Man]

But when you don't find somthing useful don't flame people. I bet you didn't know that you could make such fine mesh Al from aluminium cans.

Due to popular support I will rescind my comments that nobody gives a shit, as clearly a few of you do. You are correct Blind, I did not know “fuck off dark and fine!” Al powder could be made with an angle grinder and a ball mill. But I did know it could be made with a ball mill and aluminum foil so why go through the whole angle grinder step?

I’m just saying his idea is boring and unoriginal, his burn rate test was useless because he used a random formula, he set it off in a cluttered garage from 2 feet away, he’s “not very computer literate”, and doesn’t know shit about chemistry. On top of that he violated rules by starting a thread as a newb, on a topic which could have fit into the other “shit easy Al powder” thread.

I don’t like the whole kinder, gentler, direction this forum is heading. Maybe I’m just an asshole. Blindreeper backs you 'poor man' so I’ll keep my distain for this topic to myself from now on. :rolleyes:

[blindreeper]

Going through the andgle grinder step means you can have the Al ready in 3 hours of milling. With foil it takes weeks.

[The_Executioner]

Al cans aren’t as pure as you think they have the label (painted on) which tells you what brand of product coke fanta etc. it also has some plastic in it which makes it crinkle out when you squeeze it. I found this by putting Al cans in HCl acid. It melted the paint and Al off the can and left a clear thin plastic behind I would show you pics but I don’t know how to upload them.
This would make it 70 – 80% pure.

[jerronimo]

I just want to add that I think the lead is the reason that your aluminiumpowder came out of the ballmill so dark.
Normally lead milling media is hardened with antimony.
I think your fishingweights probally aren't, try milling some kno3 and see what colour it come's out of the mill.

[wrench352]

Sometimes,around construction sites scraps of virgin aluminum(very pure) are left behind.Its used in window and door frames.

[The_Executioner]

I have some of that aluminium from an old demolished house window frame. I haven’t been able to finely powder it only get fileings because I don’t have a ball mill but I should be making one soon. Does anybody think ball bearings would work well in a ball mill?

[poor man]

The ball bearings would work, but I wouldn't recomment it if they are of sparking material. Some non-sparking materials are brass, copper, lead, I am fairly sure that stainless steel #304 is a non-sparking alloy but you should do a search first, just to name a few. If you mill for a long time and the powder does get very fine, Sparks could cause a dust explosion inside your mill, which is why I opt for lead sinkers. Of course, the chance of the dust explosion is minimal, but it is up to you whether you want to risk it. Personally, I would rather play it safe and buy some Sinkers.

I am sorry for my hasty thread and responses, I was a little pleased with the results :rolleyes:

I think the ball barings will be OK until the Al gets quite fine, then I would switch to lead.

[poor man]

OK, the edit button has dissapeared...After some more searching though, I have found conflicting information, that copper does infact spark.

[Cyclo_Knight]

Why has noone ever thought up MY method? :confused:

Go to Home Depot, and you can get 1/2 inch, 3 foot solid aluminum rods for like 5 bucks. In all my experience they are VERY pure. Simply put the rod into a Drill Press in place of a bit, and feed it into a coarse grindstone. This method produces nearly ZERO DUST and no SPARKS! :)

Once in a while just dump the powdered aluminum into a bucket or plastic container. You can get beautiful containers from the Health Food store, in which they sell Protein Powder. It my also get you going to the gym more so you can empty it ;) ; Or if your friends use that shit, get the container from them when they're done.

It produces a beautiful even grain which is PERFECT for fountains or stars. When I milled it for a salute, is came out dark and beautiful after only 4 hours in the mill! :D

[nbk2000]

Using lead is asking for problems too, as it'll flake and produce lead dust, which is exothermic with oxygen, and could cause a fire when the milling jar is opened.

[Bert]

Using lead is asking for problems

Damn right. Lead is easy to get and cast, but makes a lousy milling media. It contaminates EVERYTHING you might want to be milling. If you can't get ceramic or stainless steel, your best bet is a couple of rolls of nickels (if you're in the US). These work fairly well and are quite tough, contaminating the milled chemicals only very slightly.

[Cyclo_Knight]

what about the Antimony hardened Lead balls like they sell at United Nuclear? Will these still horribly contaminate my aluminum? it seems to work fine for BP, but im not so sure about the harder metals, particularly Magnesium. It says on the warnings never to use steel or ceramic balls as these may spark!

Is this terribly common and dangerous or are they just talking out of their asses? I would like to use steel if possible, but I still want to be safe when milling pyrophoric metals.

[Bert]

what about the Antimony hardened Lead balls like they sell at United Nuclear? ------<SNIP>---------- It says on the warnings never to use steel or ceramic balls as these may spark!------<SNIP>---------- are they just talking out of their asses? I would like to use steel if possible, but I still want to be safe when milling pyrophoric metals.

United Nuclear = shit. Most expensive pyro supplier ever. Yes, they're talking out their asses. Yes, even hardened lead alloys will grind off and contaminate anything you use them to mill. With BP this doesn't matter too much, but it's totally unacceptable for color mixes and most lab chemical milling needs. Brass balls work well for BP but shouldn't be used for grinding chlorates or perchlorate... Pyrophoric materials aren't a significant danger until you open the drum and expose them to air. Aluminum is unlikely to be milled fine enough to be a danger by any amateur. 50:50 Mg/Al is a different story, you could get a nasty surprise if you mill it too fine. Stainless steel is a good choice for general purpose milling media, but more expensive and harder to work than lead. I personally use Coors ceramic media for virtually all my milling.

[nbk2000]

You could use steel for milling non-flammable mixes or oxidizers, without any fuel added, naturally.

Chlorate wouldn't spontaneously explode or ignite if you put a spark to it, as there's nothing to continue the fire, correct?

[poor man]

You could use steel for milling non-flammable mixes or oxidizers, without any fuel added, naturally.

Chlorate wouldn't spontaneously explode or ignite if you put a spark to it, as there's nothing to continue the fire, correct?

I am pretty sure that he was talking about copper media, or copper alloys as, although hardly likely, the sensitive copper chlorate could form. But I find this very unlikely, due to the fact that copper is very unreactive and would not take the ClO3 ion from K or Na ions as they are far more reactive.

Just for your information. I inspected the a sample of the Al under a microscope after 5 hours milling, and found that the particle size had infact decreased alot. The vast majority of the particles measured were in the range of 475 to 600 mesh, or .0333333 to .02 millimeters-if the conversion table I read was correct. Most of the Al seemed to be in flakes, although some of the particles were more granulated than flakes.

The aluminium I have now from it after 5 hours milling burns quite violently with CuO more like a flash powder, with a burn time of .3 seconds for a small 1 centermeter cubed pile.

(The reason my Al has only been milled for 5 hours is that my last batch was contaminated with Zn powder)

[Cyclo_Knight]

I need to mill my magnesium to about 500 mesh. What steps should I take to avoid sudden oxidation when exposed to air? Bert's post has got me worried, as 500 mesh is pretty damn fine.

Is this truly a cause for worry? I've made it many times before without incident, but I am also notoriously lucky. :)

Im using Ceramic balls to mill the magnesium, and I dont think that ceramic sparks but I could be wrong. What does everyone else use? :confused:

[fire vs. water]

I have made aluminium using a few methods I've read on this thread.
I first used an angle grinder to make the powder using poor man's method.
I grinded both compacted soda cans, and an aluminium rod.
I mixed the powder with KNO3 in a 70-30 ratio.

I tried lighting it, and it didn't work. I even added some BP above it to try make it light up, but that didn't work either.
I then tried mixing my Al powder with Sulfur and KNO3 in a 60KNO3- 30Al-10S ratio; that mixture did not light either.

I tried those mixtures with the powders I produced from both the can and the rod.

I also used Cyclo_Knight's method of replacing the drill bit with the aluminum rod. I wrapped it around with sand paper, and spun the drill. That produced very fine powder (or so it seemed); but it didn't light to success.

Does anyone have any idea to what my problem might be?
(by the way, I forgot to mention that I didn't ball mill it, could this be the problem? I would think that it should at least light up a bit or burn slowly if not ballmilled, but neither of those results took place for me).


Maybe the Al is bad? is there an Al indicator?

[Bert]

Does anyone have any idea to what my problem might be?
(by the way, I forgot to mention that I didn't ball mill it, could this be the problem? I would think that it should at least light up a bit or burn slowly if not ballmilled, but neither of those results took place for me).


I don't know what you're trying to make with this home made Al powder, but I suspect it's flash.

Yes, not ball milling it or otherwise getting it down to a smaller particle size is probably your problem with the grinder method. The sandpaper method is probably giving you a lot of the shed abrasive, and a good bit of Al oxide with a little Al powder heavily oxide coated. Sand and Aluminum oxide don't burn too well.

KNO3 isn't the oxidizer of choice for flash & report type mixes either.

The coarser Al with BP type mix you describe might make an interesting star with a bit of excess Sulfur and about 6% dextrin binder added. Keep the Al down to 10% of the mix, raise the Sulfur to 15-20% and lower the charcoal to 5-8%. Make some stars and get them into the air to test. They won't look like anything on the ground.

If it's flash you're after, you'll have to do some more work to get the powder fine enough.

[Jetex Kid]

I don't know what you're trying to make with this home made Al powder, but I suspect it's flash.

KNO3 isn't the oxidizer of choice for flash & report type mixes either.

If it's flash you're after, you'll have to do some more work to get the powder fine enough.

I imply no criticism of Bert who is very knowledgeable, but I must post the following quote from the inimitable Gerald L. Hurst, regarding an inexpensive flash powder. I've been meaning to do this for a while.

I also use sodium nitrate based flash powder, but no milling is required. I simply mix relatively coarse Al (<100 um) (me: 140 Mesh) with sodium nitrate (about 0,5 mm) (me: 35 Mesh) using about 10 % excess of the Al. The mixture is about impossible to ignite with flame, even with a gas torch you can heat a long time before it starts burning - so it is safe to handle. A blasting cap is required to set the powder off and the critical diameter is about 2 cm. I usually load about 100 gram charges. (Me: At sg=2.0 and diameter = 2 cm, length = ~6 inches.)

The above flash powder gives an long lasting fireball and a nice
mushroom shaped cloud of smoke. You can really see the bright fireball
rise, before it goes off. Also, the air is filled with aluminum
sparks. After the extremely bright illumination, it is hard to see
anything for a while.


It would appear that blasting caps are a viable alternative to good ingredients, when it comes to making noise.

[Bert]

It would appear that blasting caps are a viable alternative to good ingredients, when it comes to making noise.

I wouldn't even call what this guy is doing making flash- Flash doesn't NEED a blasting cap to make a bang... It's an interesting method, but if you want to make a bang and have the caps- why bother with pseudo flash, there are so many other things you could use the caps to initiate...

Does he specify anywheres the particle geometry of his Al powder? I'd assume it's cheap, bright flake Al as that's the most commonly available non-pyro grade.

[Jetex Kid]

I wouldn't even call what this guy is doing making flash- Flash doesn't NEED a blasting cap to make a bang... It's an interesting method, but if you want to make a bang and have the caps- why bother with pseudo flash, there are so many other things you could use the caps to initiate...

Does he specify anywheres the particle geometry of his Al powder? I'd assume it's cheap, bright flake Al as that's the most commonly available non-pyro grade.

Well, given that one has blasting caps, it's the cheapest and easiest real noisemaker I've ever heard of. Its sound might be little different or no different from the Real Thing, but frankly I've never heard one and most people wouldn't care. Hurst never specified type of aluminum, but that would be incredibly course aluminum if it were not flake.

As Mr. Hurst notes, it is outrageously inert, as opposed to good flash which can turn a dry day into a bad day. With the other, if your caps are safe, you are safe.

If one builds multi-stage caps and dilutes lead azide as in a clathrate, then one airbag provides an incredible number of caps. This scenario provides noisemaking power to people who lack access to the Right Stuff, if they know enough to take advantage of it. :)

[nbk2000]

Might I suggest that you, Jetex Kid, cease quoting entire posts to reply with a single sentence?

Use quotations to quote ONLY that part of a post that is relevant to your reply, and only if your reply could be taken out of context without the presence of the quotation.

Thank you.

[bahrg]

Im not sure exactly what type of wheel is being used in your angle grinder, but I do know that Al will load up most wheels which were designed for gringind steel. After a while it packs in so tight that it can cause the wheel to fly apart.. potentially dangerous. I would hope that there are different wheels available that wont load like this. Either way I imagine most ppl would use eye protection while doing this to be safe.

[anchorpad]

Poor_man:

To use KMnO4 with Al/sulphur is a very bad thing to do, because:
The mix is unstable.
KMnO4 togheter with sulphur and damp can create H2SO4. And everybody knows that KMnO4 togheter with H2SO4 starts to burn.
If you instead of KMnO4 uses KClO4 you get a much more safer mix.

[anchorpad]

(edit:ohh, i thougt my last replay was denied so i posted a new.. :(
well there is some good information in both of them so i let it be two of them.
sry.)

Poorman:
You shouldn´t use KMnO4 in that mix.
Because if the mixture gets wet the KMnO4 solves in the water and gets bigger contact surfase whit the Al and sulphur. And the Al/S oxidises with heat development and sets fire on the whole mix.
You shouldn´t either use this mix togheter with metalls because the KMnO4 reacts with the metall and can create heat wich results in that the whole mix detonates.(except for Aluminium).
And this mixture with Al/S/KMnO4 is also sensitive against punches.
You shouldn´t use KMnO4 at all in Pyrotechnics.
But if you instead of KMnO4 uses KClO4 you get a safer mix.
And the best way to make Al powder? personally i think it´s best to buy it :)
But one other good way to do it in is to solve Aluminium in HNO3 (watch up for the forming H2). when you have solved enough Al you can either let the HNO3 evaporate or pour some water in the solution and filter it.
(excuse my bad english :))

[nuclearattack]

To anchorpad:
buying Al powder is the best way for sure but i made a lot of search for it and the only Al powder i found is an Alluminium oxide powder in a varnish shop.
I don't know if Al oxide works well in blasting composition or thermobarric mixtures...what do you think?
However i think that pure Al powder will not remain pure for a long because it will reacts with the air oxygen becoming Al oxide anyway.
I'm interested in HNO3 method...how much concentrated should be the HNO3?
Will 30% HCL work instead of HNO3? I don't want to waste precious HNO3!

[Boomer]

First: Al is very resistant towards HNO3, especially if pure. They even use Alu barrels for the stuff. Good luck dissolving it. :p

Second, since when do you get metal powder by dissolving the metal in acid? If you get it to dissolve at all, you are making aluminium nitrate. If your method worked, we could make sodium metal by evaporating table salt solution! :rolleyes:

And NO, Al oxide will NOT work in fireworks. It is already oxidised, trying to use it would be like trying to burn ash. :p

[anchorpad]

To anchorpad:
buying Al powder is the best way for sure but i made a lot of search for it and the only Al powder i found is an Alluminium oxide powder in a varnish shop.
I don't know if Al oxide works well in blasting composition or thermobarric mixtures...what do you think?
However i think that pure Al powder will not remain pure for a long because it will reacts with the air oxygen becoming Al oxide anyway.
I'm interested in HNO3 method...how much concentrated should be the HNO3?
Will 30% HCL work instead of HNO3? I don't want to waste precious HNO3!

I mixed togheter the Al with zinc.( it was a long time ago i did it. ;) ) It isn´t possible to dissolve Al in HNO3 but you are able to do it in konc HCL.
Solve as much Al you can in konc HCL.
evaporate the mix and solve the forming crystals in water, then add a metal that is less noble (precious) then Al, ex. Mg, K, Na. Now should the Al fell out like at fine fine dust.
I´ve never tried this method myself but it should work in the theory.
according to this formula:
2Al(s) + 6HCl(aq) ==> 2AlCl3(aq) + 3H2(g)

2AlCl3(aq) + 3Mg(s) ==> 3MgCl2(aq) + 2Al(s)

[apathyboy]

But why on earth would you use something like magnesium or, even more wasteful, sodium metal to get aluminum powder? Especially since a good ball mill and some steel bearings will grind Al fine enough to make flash anyways, and probably a thousand times cheaper than using sodium to react it out of solution.

[anchorpad]

But why on earth would you use something like magnesium or, even more wasteful, sodium metal to get aluminum powder? Especially since a good ball mill and some steel bearings will grind Al fine enough to make flash anyways, and probably a thousand times cheaper than using sodium to react it out of solution.

I didn´t said it was the best way to do it, did I? ;)
But it is one way to do it. And i agree to that fact that a ball mill is a very good investment.
This is also a good way to do it in: (found at rotteneggs.com)

"PROCESS NO.1

Stuff:
1. Sheet of al foil.
2. Blow torch.
3. Coffee grinder/two thick sheets of iron.

Steps:
1. Get the al foil and heat ALL of it with the blow torch.
2. Put it in the coffee grinder/in between the two sheets of iron and rub them together.
3. Pour out the powder.

PROCESS NO.2

Stuff:
1. Thick piece of aluminium.
2. Blow torch.
3. Coffee grinder/two sheets of iron.
4. File.

Steps:
1. Grind up the aluminium with the file.
2. Heat it up with the blow torch.
3. Once the gringings cool down put them in the coffee grinder/in between the two sheets of iron and rub them together.
4. Pour out the powder.

Why it works: When you heat up the aluminium and it cool back down it becomes brittle.
UNDERSTAND?
It can be crushed when it isn’t as maluble!
STILL DON’T UNDERSTAND?
Too bad.
Don’t breathe in the aluminium dust or rub it on your skin, as it can kill you!"

(How do yo know its a good method? What were the results when you tried it? I'd be inclined to think a reasonable amount of oxidtion would occur, making it brittle. - kingspaz)

[Boomer]

OK now I get the idea. Thought you wanted to evaporate the salt solution.

One problem I see is that because the alu falling out is *extremely* fine, will it stay metallic or does it turn to hydroxide?

The formation of hydroxide or oxide will probably also prevent the simple electrolysis of an aluminium salt. In contrast to the spongy copper metal you get from the sulphate, you would get useless crap. I am no electro-chemist but it would be too good to be true if it worked. :(

[anchorpad]

OK now I get the idea. Thought you wanted to evaporate the salt solution.

One problem I see is that because the alu falling out is *extremely* fine, will it stay metallic or does it turn to hydroxide?

The formation of hydroxide or oxide will probably also prevent the simple electrolysis of an aluminium salt. In contrast to the spongy copper metal you get from the sulphate, you would get useless crap. I am no electro-chemist but it would be too good to be true if it worked. :(

Like I said I have never tried this myself, but it should work in the theory.
But, when you dissolve aluminium in HCL you get a salt and H2 is forming.
Ion compounds like AlCl3, Al(NO3)2 and Al2(SO3) contains aluminium, but in ion form. So it has already oxide and is useless...hmm..
I knowed it was like you said boomer "it would be to good to be true".. :eek:
But like i said in the theory... ;)

[cyclonite4]

Al cans aren’t as pure as you think they have the label (painted on) which tells you what brand of product coke fanta etc. it also has some plastic in it which makes it crinkle out when you squeeze it. I found this by putting Al cans in HCl acid. It melted the paint and Al off the can and left a clear thin plastic behind I would show you pics but I don’t know how to upload them.
This would make it 70 – 80% pure.

I assume that all the impurities would be soluble in acetone, so if you mixed the resultant product of grinding with acetone and filtered out the aluminium then the purity would be significantly increased. :)

(Not everything is soluble in acetone! What about other metallic impurities? - kingspaz)

[nbk2000]

We have two large threads about the same thing in two different places, so I've put them in the same place, with the same name.

I didn't merge them, as that'd disrupt the continuity of the discussion, but only thread #2 will remain open for further posting on this topic.

[2,4,6-TNP]

Poorman, why don't you just buy powdered aluminum? You can buy it cheaper by the pound than you can buy aluminum stock by the pound at a scrap yard. Time to wise up and use your credit card not your grinder. Powdered aluminum is not exactly banned by the government, Hint ,Hint, Dah, you can buy it dirt cheap by the ton and nobody gives a shit, least of all from the people you buy it from; just more cash to line their pockets. (Making your own these days should only be reserved to Explosives, chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. Why trouble yourself just buy the shit from ebay ect.)

[Child-of-Bodom]

I also have had great troubles with getting alu powder. I am able to get 80um for 40$ /kg, but airfloat is harder to get. In the meantime I already have a supplier, but they don't send it so I have to drive 300 km to them, and 300 back for only a kilo of alupowder. (Yes, for me is 300km much!)
80um is worthless for flash as you problaby know...

Making your own firework is PROHIBITED in The Netherlands (and probably also in the rest of Europe), so pyrosellers simply do not sell without certificates, etc.

To buy it from Ebay is not easy, Ebay.de is rather big, but powdered metals are often discribed as 'flammable' so hard to transport legaly. On Ebay.com a lot of Mg and Al powder is offered, but they often refuse to ship it to Europe...and there is a lot of control on the fence. I've heard of someone who was lifted from his bed by the police because he ordered a kilo of KClO4 from Canada...not a very nice idea...

Conclusion: Home-improved Al powder is for some people still one of the only options that remains open, and some people like to make everything themselve, it is great to light something you've completely made yourself instead of buying everything...

[Guerilla]

Child-of-Bodom, if you like, drop a line to my mail and I can guide you to a company that sells you all the common pyro chemicals. The Prices are by no means dirt cheap though, but more reasonable than those for lab grade stuff anyway. And German Dark Al for instance, is something I gladly spend some extra bucks for.

Im not sure how wise it is to order from them if the authorities there really have such a strict policy, though. I for one never had any problems with my order and the delivery was very fast, straight to my door.

Funny location you got there btw, for a moment I thought you were a finn until I linked it to your name. ;)

[2,4,6-TNP]

Ya, if you buy powdered aluminum from a pyro dealer your going to get a horrrible deal; it's going to cost you alot of money and they may not be willing to sell in large quantities. You would be very smart to realize right now that the largest use of powdered aluminum is not in firework manufacturing. No, it is consumed much more and much more cheaply I might add in manufacturing metallic paints. You will get very small particles from paint supply companies, because it is most desirable in making uniform paint with a smooth finish.

[tmp]

Most pyro sellers will limit your purchase of German Dark or Indian Dark
powder to 2 LBS a year unless you happen to have a BATFE explosives
license. The only way around that would be to order from multiple
suppliers or look around on eBay. I make my own because the prices
from pyro suppliers are generally outrageous although good deals can
be found on occasion.

[10fingers]

I have noticed that some pyro suppliers will only sell two lbs. of powdered aluminum per person a year, some will sell any amount and recently I noticed that Pyrotek has completely discontinued selling flash grade aluminum. This leads me to believe that there really aren't any set regulations for the purchase of flash aluminum, it's just individual suppliers doing what they think is in there best interest.
If someone really needs flash aluminum but can't buy it there is always the ball mill. I think of all the ways there is to make powdered aluminum this is probably the best and simplest. Mine takes awhile though, about three days to do a 70 gram batch. I use steel ball bearings and add a few drops of light oil to keep the aluminum from sticking together. The aluminum powder comes out a light grey, it kind of looks like powdered graphite and it works just as good as anything you could buy.

[Child-of-Bodom]

Im not sure how wise it is to order from them if the authorities there really have such a strict policy, though. I for one never had any problems with my order and the delivery was very fast, straight to my door.

I am not afraid of ordering inside Europe, since there is no continuous control on the border. Although I wouldn't order things like perchlorate, I'd rather make those myself with an electrolysis setup. For alu powder there are nice excuses...for perchlorate not...

Making your own with a ballmill is indeed good possible, but it makes a rather lot of noise, and it takes some time. Adding oil or another trapping liquid is very neccesary, you don't want to have a dust explosion of 500gr alu powder in your house :rolleyes:

Guerilla: Email send...

[Dr_Pind]

I tried blending Al foil in my blender yesterday. I filled the blender with enough 93%EtOH to completely cover the blades. Then i put in a large amount of shreadded Al kitchen foil, put on the lid, and began blending. after about 5 min. of blending, the foil had been reduced to small pieces (the largest pieces being less than 1 mm in diameter). The EtOH turned very dark gray, and after being decanted and left to stand over night, produced a very dark gray precipitate looking very much like flashpowder. The powder was VERY fine.I don't know the mesh size, but it was so fine that I couldn't see individual flakes in the precipitate. I'm VERY impressed about the effectiveness of a blender on foil.

My experiments were discontinued after 5 min. of blending, due to a large crack in the bottom of the blender, leaking EtOH. First I thought that al powder had come into the gasket, making it leak, but after emptying and cleaning it, I found a large crack, leaking water... BUGGER!
But the method IS working! YIPEE!

[Microtek]

I have used the blender method a few times now, both with vegetable oil and ethanol as the liquid. I find that ethanol ( 93 % ) is by far the most satisfying solution as it speeds up filtration enormously and doesn't leave a film on the Al powder.
I have been experimenting with a method for separating the powder into different grades based on grain size. One possibility is to filter the suspension of Al in ethanol through successive filters of increasingly fine material. Thus, a batch was filtered through a nylon stocking to remove the coarse particles. The filtrate dripped directly into a pre-wetted tea filter, the filtrate was collected and finally poured through a coffee filter to collect the finest product.
The filtrate fro
To be continued...

[Pb1]

Here’s a classic way of separating airborne powders:

Picture a long box with an outlet covered with a filter at the far side. At the near side, there is an inlet (a hole on the top) into which a powder falls. There is a slow current of air going from the near side to the far side. The coarsest powder sinks straight to the bottom and stays close to where it enters, the finest gets carried the farthest and eventually gets caught in the filter.

The problem with this method is that it is a large-scale method and probably not applicable to small amounts. A variation is to form a good suspension of the powder and let it settle. The coarse stuff settles first and so on.

[Microtek]

OK, now that New Years eve is well over, I can continue where I left off.
I was saying that the very finest powder was collected in a coffee filter and that the filtrate, which was completely clear, was recycled.
The product was allowed to dry covered in the filter overnight so as to minimize air-circulation and oxide formation. If a substantially oxide free powder is needed, the product could be stored wet with ethanol in a closed container, and used without drying it out as a component of solid compositions such as rocket propellant grains or cast explosive charges like the HBX compounds.

Anyway, a small sample of the dried powder was examined in an optical microscope an compared to an object of known size. The powder grains were very small, on average no more than 5 micron and probably closer to 2-3 micron.

[Bert]

I noticed that Pyrotek has completely discontinued selling flash grade aluminum..

The US Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) is trying to shut down all suppliers of pyrotechnic materials to unlicensed hobbyists. Pyrotek, Firefox and Iowa Pyro Supply were the first targets. PGI is considering putting together a war chest to fight this in court... You might want to consider joining and helping us out if you're not a member.

It's a way for the US government to do what the BATFE would not do- stopping hobbyists from just ordering anything they want for pyrotechnic (report) mixtures. Fucking idiots, anyone with bleach or salt and electricity, Al foil and kitchen appliances could still make salutes. I suspect they'll mainly just cause kids who want a quick bang to make acetone peroxide instead.

[DONMAN]

I have only tried the chemical way of making Al powder, and in my experience its not very profitable. I used HCl and aluminum foil, and like a retard I didn't account for the extremely exothermic reaction this is. Despited my stupidity, the exothermic reaction boiled off alot of the excess water that was present in the HCl. So I had relatively pure AlCl3, then I tried using a less noble metal such as zinc found in pennies, but I soon found this was a waist of my money, as it requires quite a bit of pennies. Also, the yields where very shitty to say the least.

So then I tried electrolysis on the solution, and the AlCl3 is almost too good of a conductor. Need less to say, I found it a tad alarming that, this would short out my house. I have a home made dc source, it's just a blow-dryer cord spliced in to an AC to DC rectifier. Also there is alot of Cl gas produced. I didn't complete the electrolysis but, I think for the time and effort required its not worth it.

[krick]

There is (barely?) no chemical way to make Al powder, it's an too reactive metal even more than than zinc (means zinc is more nobel than Al).

Therefor you can't make Al (-Powder) by adding a less nobel metal to an Al-solution or an electrolysis because it would react with the water to Al2O3 and hydrogen.

[DONMAN]

Aluminum is above zinc to the right on the periodic table, making zinc the more reactive metal. So that is why you can cause a replacement reaction with AlCl3 and zinc metal causing fine Al to precipitate. Although if your zinc isn't powdered this reaction can take over night! In which cause the Al that does precipitate will turn to oxide. If it was powdered you might have a chance! Any one know where you can find pure zinc?

[krick]

It's right that aluminum is above zinc to the right on the periodic table, but that does'nt make it more nobel.

This is the thing you have to look for.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_electrode_potential_(data_page)

It's hard for me to explain it in english exactly but the short version is, the more high a metal stands in this list, the more reactive it is.

Al is also above gold, you won't say it's less reactive than gold...

[DONMAN]

I would never say that because I know the coinage metals are all fairly stable. Point taken, but then what the fuck is going on in my reaction? I know that my solution of AlCl3 contains no more HCl, because when I put aluminum in the solution it doesn't eat it up and produce hydrogen gas. So when I put zinc in the solution what is happening? It slowly bubbles some gas off the zinc. God I don't even know what I don't know about this reaction! AAAhh ...shit. Anyone have an answer?

Has the aluminum reached some sort of equilibrium so that it no longer reacts with the HCl present in the solution of AlCl3. That would sort of answer my question... Meaning that the zinc is reacting with the HCl to make ZnCl2 liberating hydrogen gas. I could have sworn there was some precipitate. This is really weird.....

[Chris The Great]

AlCl3 is an acid in aqueos solution, and so will react with the zinc metal. This will in turn give Al(OH)3 which would be whatever grey powder you managed to isolate.

The exact reaction would be roughly like this:
2AlCl3-6H2O + 3Zn -> 3ZnCl2 + 2Al(OH)3 + 3H2O

[DONMAN]

With lewis acids is it true for the most part that if you don't get a replacement reaction with a metal, then you will make a metal hydroxide? (this may be a broad generalization). My understanding of redox reactions is a tad fuzzy.

[seaWasp]

I too have been interested in home manufacture of aluminum powder lately.

I tried milling aluminum foil scraps in my rock tumbler using glass marbles as media. This did NOT turn out to be efficient at all: after days of continuous milling, the only powder that I could see was a thin layer covering the inside of the tumbler. Most of the scraps were still whole.

I found a site called Rainbow Turtle that sells chrome steel marbles. Do you guys think I should get a few 1/2" chrome steel marbles for my rock tumbler? Here's the link:

http://www.rainbowturtle.com/index.php?cPath=323

[jpsmith123]

I'm still learning about ball milling myself, but, as I understand it, low density grinding media like ceramics and glass will not work well in a small diameter milling jar.

Supposedly you need an inside diameter of 6" or more to mill efficiently with these relatively lightweight media.

BTW your linked source has high prices for chrome steel balls.

Someone pointed out a much cheaper source here:

http://www.craigballsales.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=154&categoryID=179

[seaWasp]

Hmm... I notice that the chrome steel balls you linked to are of a higher grade than the ones I linked to. They are grade 100, whereas the balls I linked are grade 25. Should I be paying attention to the grade of the metal when shopping for milling media?

[Frunk]

Ladies and gentlemen, I beg to differ! Screw that ''it won't work'' theory, I tried it.
I was sucessful in reducing aluminium foil to powder in only a week with a lortone 33b tumbler. The jar is 3-4 inches in diameter. I used common glass marbles as milling media.

As this post is worthless without pics:
Before:
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/6655/1beforezi5.jpg

Opening the jar of wonders:
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9405/2openingip9.jpg

The sieving apparatus to separate the media from the balls:
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/6653/3sievexa8.jpg

At last, the result. Mmm, dark:
http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/7876/4resultst0.th.jpg (http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=4resultst0.jpg)

Media and the Al that didn't make it through the sieve ( I added this foil on day 3 of the milling)
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3024/5mediatrayrh8.th.jpg (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=5mediatrayrh8.jpg)

Closeup of the unground stuff:
http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/407/6ungroundyq4.th.jpg (http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=6ungroundyq4.jpg)

This is not the end, only the beginning:
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2438/7newbatchrm0.th.jpg (http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=7newbatchrm0.jpg)


Okay, so that went well. The only problem is that there seems to be significant glass contamination in the powder. There is some erosion on the marbles, but I am unable to know if those sparkles are normal for Al powder or if they are glass shards, what is your opinion?

Anyways, the glass shards are probably much bigger than the Al particles. I have no access to a 50 micro sieve but that should work. Sorry for the big pics, I only thought about thumbnails after the first few pics. Some pics are from a webcam and some are from a digital camera. Second larger scale batch in progress, this was only a few feet of Al foil. It's about four grams per feet. I'm going to pack that jar full now. A continuous process could be done by opening the jar and sieving everyday then adding new foil, but I find that the powder grinds itself and the foil when the glass fails at that task.
Anyways, if my old childhodd marbles work for this purpose, so would slingshot ammo in a small jar. It's the next logical step to avoid glass contamination. My powder is perfectly fine for thermite but glass will impact flash powder's sensitivity. I'm one step closer to chemical independance :D

[Bacon46]

Why bother milling aluminum foil when you can buy -325 mesh Al on EBay for $10.00 per pound in 6kg quantities and $5.00 per pound in 55lb drums. Both prices include shipping.

I been using this powder in all of my compositions requiring Al for over a year with excellent results.

NBK. This is not self promotion. I am not selling anything on EBay. I have just found a few things there that I think are worth buying.:D

[Shalashaska]

IMHO, it's always better to make something with home products that is as effective or almost as effective as something you bought... keeps the monkeys off your back if you know what I mean. Even eBay isn't as safe as you may believe. Plus, you never know when that one substance you've been buying forever is no longer legal to buy or own. Although, if you get assloads for cheap, have at it.

[Frunk]

Why bother milling aluminum foil when you can buy -325 mesh Al on EBay for $10.00 per pound in 6kg quantities and $5.00 per pound in 55lb drums. Both prices include shipping.


Because I want to reach my goal of chemical independance.
That is, being able to blow stuff up with things the government may never remove from us.

Example:
With:
-Al foil + NaCl, a few kilowatts and a week.
-Birkeland-Eyde reactors make nitric acid from air, water and some kilowatts.
-Sulfuric acid is reusable so one only needs a few liters (which I can buy as drain opener before the crackdown comes)
-Ammonia is used in cleaning and is forever obtainable.
-KOH can be made from wood ashes and some purification.

Now, when I have all of this (which will cost me a few hundred bucks) and I get the processes right, I will be able to :
-Make flash powder from scratch.
-Make NH4NO3 from scratch
-Make KNO3 from scratch
-Make HNO3 from scratch
-Make any kind of nitrated HE with that HNO3 and the reusable sulfuric

It will take time, it will take money, but don't you think this is better than having to buy on Ebay? Buying a 50 pound bag of something once in a lifetime is good too, but what will you do when that substance is outlawed and you finished your bag?

[Bacon46]

Good Point.

Ball milling seems like such an inefficient method, but I don't know a better way.

McMaster Carr sells ½” “Ultra-Hard Wear-Resistant Stainless Steel Balls" $12.96 per 25.

Type 440C

Grade 100

Rockwell C58-C65

Unpolished

That might solve the media wear issues.

Another might be lead filled steel pipe. I have had better luck using bars or rods in my mill rather than balls.

http://www.mcmaster.com/

[megalomania]

Frunk has put his money where his mouth is and produced a wonderfully simple and effective method of producing his own aluminum powder. Sometimes the simple step of conducting an experiment, actually DOING something, instead of endless debates and pedantic theorization of why your mental cock is larger that someone else's is the most effective solution.

The attitude that one can simply purchase something is really frustrating to me, and many experimenters without access to professional sources. I have had many a chemistry professor say the exact same thing when I question them about how to make a chemical. Just call up Sigma/VWR/Fisher/Alfa Aesar and buy it. That’s easy for someone on the inside to say, that’s what they do.

I will agree that it is far more convenient to buy a chemical instead of making a chemical, but with history as our guide what you can buy today will not be around much longer. Where is our Red Devil Lye? Sulfuric acid drain opener? Potassium permanganate, chromium compounds, carbon tetrachloride, ammonium and sodium nitrate fertilizers? All of these things used to be on the store shelves, they are now rare to impossible to find for many people.

Purchasing any chemical also runs the risk of you being labeled a terrorist, a drug dealer, or an unsanctioned scientist. It is a defacto illegality to do any kind of scientific research without the sanctioning of a corporate, university, or fedgov laboratory. The fedgov has guaranteed with their shortsighted and idiotic laws that independent researchers will never be able to compete with the sanctioned researchers and threaten their profits. Despite the fact that making fireworks is perhaps one of the greatest teaching tools for a young mind to gain interest and practical experience in the sciences, the fedgov would rather you learn ABOUT science instead of DO science. Buying anything leaves a paper trail, and the fedgov always assumes you are guilty until proven rich.

Aluminum is used to make fireworks. The fedgov wants to ban all fireworks. Ergo if you don’t learn to be self sufficient now, you will be SOL come the next wave of draconian restrictions. Ebay has already started to forbid the sale of certain chemicals. It’s their company, they can do what they want, and what they want is to keep their assholes nice and lubed for the fedgov lackeys because their primary business is catering to soccer moms buying cheap jewelry and scammers selling imported crap, not to pyrotechnic enthusiasts or scientific hobbyists.

The crude and inefficient methods are how every industrial process starts, how every pharmaceutical originates, and how every invention is launched. What does your sig say, Bacon46? “If it works, tweak it!”

[Frunk]

I restarted the experiment to double-check that it really worked.

The first time I used some coffee-grinder'd Al foil along with straight Al foil, this time I tried it with only some 4 square inches pieces of foil.

I left it on for 8 days, opening every two days to ensure there was enough air to prevent the Al from becoming pyrophoric. This is a bit paranoiac considering the small scale of the operation, but hey.


Results (sorry, no pics):
Day 1: Marbles have a hard time getting free from the foil, there are about 60 grams of it at 4g per square foot. It has a significant volume.

Day 2: Some marbles are starting to be free.

Day 3: The foil is thoroughly ground into manageable chunks and the marbles are all flowing.

Day 4-7: The foil pieces grind against each other to become very fine powder.

Day 8(Final result): Same kind of powder as the first test, very little unground residue (I'll add it to the next batch). Significantly less glass contamination.

Conclusion: The marbles stop wearing out after a week. The weak parts fall off and that's it. Break them in by doing a week-long dry run before adding the Al. There is no need to pre-grind the Al, if you overload the drum you will just have to wait 1-2 extra days before it starts grinding.

-Proud owner of 100g home made Al powder, which means 330G of flash, which is way more than I can safely use in two weeks.

[hydra]

I will agree that it is far more convenient to buy a chemical instead of making a chemical, but with history as our guide what you can buy today will not be around much longer. Where is our Red Devil Lye? Sulfuric acid drain opener? Potassium permanganate, chromium compounds, carbon tetrachloride, ammonium and sodium nitrate fertilizers? All of these things used to be on the store shelves, they are now rare to impossible to find for many people.

Purchasing any chemical also runs the risk of you being labeled a terrorist, a drug dealer, or an unsanctioned scientist. It is a defacto illegality to do any kind of scientific research without the sanctioning of a corporate, university, or fedgov laboratory. The fedgov has guaranteed with their shortsighted and idiotic laws that independent researchers will never be able to compete with the sanctioned researchers and threaten their profits. Despite the fact that making fireworks is perhaps one of the greatest teaching tools for a young mind to gain interest and practical experience in the sciences, the fedgov would rather you learn ABOUT science instead of DO science. Buying anything leaves a paper trail, and the fedgov always assumes you are guilty until proven rich.

Aluminum is used to make fireworks. The fedgov wants to ban all fireworks. Ergo if you don’t learn to be self sufficient now, you will be SOL come the next wave of draconian restrictions. Ebay has already started to forbid the sale of certain chemicals. It’s their company, they can do what they want, and what they want is to keep their assholes nice and lubed for the fedgov lackeys because their primary business is catering to soccer moms buying cheap jewelry and scammers selling imported crap, not to pyrotechnic enthusiasts or scientific hobbyists.

The crude and inefficient methods are how every industrial process starts, how every pharmaceutical originates, and how every invention is launched. What does your sig say, Bacon46? “If it works, tweak it!”


Very well said Mega. That is exactly how I view the situation as well. The constant creeping progression of restriction and tracking is one of the prime reasons I ended up here. I.e., as a result of actively looking for informational resources for "ground up" chem prep.

While the OTC threads are great, and OTC is a time/money efficient method wherever it works; a simple extrapolation of these decades-long trends makes it obvious that OTC is going to work for fewer and fewer items every year.

Therefore, my primary interest over the past few years has been turning more and more towards "ground up" prep in a very literal sense. I.e., from the dirt, from the air, the water, biomass, etc..


In regards to aluminum powder prep, I wanted to mention that a process for electroplating aluminum on an industrial basis (i.e. reasonably straightforward, robust, repeatable) has been worked out in recent years. The trick is that it's done in a non-aqueous electrolyte....which allows cell-voltages higher than water-breakdown...which is needed to dissolve and plate aluminum.

I had only investigated this in regards to possible battery applications; but it may well be possible to tune this process to be a high-production low-effort Al-powder plant....similar to how other metals are made in powder-form in aqueous processes.

My memory may be playing tricks on me, but I seem to recall that in fact one of the development problems of this process was getting truly adherent coatings instead of a "poor quality" powdery mess... :D

I think I still have some related papers buried in one of my RAR archive. I'll keep an eye out for them; and will upload to tmp's if they look useful.

[chad455]

I know this has been beet to death but I might have a new idea. I have taken a sawzall ( reciprocating saw ) and attached a 12" long metal file that is about 1" wide. I attached a piece of 2 " wide PVC to the saw with a hose clamp. Then I glued a 2" tee the PVC. To the other side of the tee I extend it with another piece of 2" PVC to extend passed the end of the file. I then put a elbow onto the end of the PVC. I put into the top of the tee a piece of Al tubing and started the saw. Its not the quickest way but it does grind it. Any feedback would be appreciated.

[Cobalt.45]

Should have no extraneous matter associated with it like grit from sandpaper or grinding wheels. But the mesh (as-is) will be relatively coarse- certainly too coarse for flash but OK for some stars or thermite.

The more I look into it, I'm leaning towards making magnalium and processing that into mesh sizes I can use. It's so brittle that it can be crushed up using hand tools.

[Alexires]

Cobalt - Ahhh, for the days of Magnalium engine blocks.

For those that haven't seen it:
An article about homemade magnalium. (http://www.vk2zay.net/article/85)

[Lambda]

Chad: unless the file you're using is made of HSS it will dull very quickly wihtout proper cooling.
I'd put my money on a grinder using sand paper instead. But then there's the contamination problem.:o

[Gunner2]

Factory production of alluminium powder:

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/4616/alpowder2vk4.th.jpg (http://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=alpowder2vk4.jpg)http://img227.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

Two setups can produce up to 3 tons per 24h.

[festergrump]

Any chance you could cite a source for this? Pictures are nice, but certainly articles, webpages, or book chapters to go with them are far superior.

[Alexires]

Air pressure into 750C liquid aluminium....? That feels like a bad idea to me, but otherwise doesn't look too horrible.

Use Nitrogen and you would be cooking with gas....or nitrogen as the case might be.

[Gunner2]

Any chance you could cite a source for this? Pictures are nice, but certainly articles, webpages, or book chapters to go with them are far superior.

here you are: http://rapidshare.com/files/163714053/__1052___1072___1083___1082___1080___1085____1041_ .__1042_.____1042___1086___1088___1086___1073___11 .html



You will need DjVu viewer. BTW , it's in russian , but I am able to translate most of it. Actualy article talks about thermit welding, but on page 40 you can read about Al powder mass production.
Or look on Google for Aluminium powder jet pulverization