About Madrid's bombs

[kkyenn]

Please!! Excuse me for this terrific (automatic/next) translate (I’m Italian and my English is very poor)
To Madrid we all know as it is just happened something many serious and terrifying (servants not to speak here and in this context about how much the use of the explosive in these cases is "aberrant", I true!).
Instead I Ask all the greater experts of the Forum who are available: - Someone has hypothesis or theories or convictions on what and how have been used (speak about compositions, quality, amount, detonators, members or other) in these "plans of outbreak"?
Of course I know how the question is premature, than there will be surveying deepened from part of the competent authorities; and that we can give answers to us meaby now only vague and based on the few informations reported from the media average; but question me it seems worthy of our interest.
And of our attention it will be then still more interesting to verify our suppositions with that it will come then uncovered in the truth.
In expectant, I am attended of your theories! (... You do not misinterpret to me: I’m not neither cynical neither insensitive towards the victims of these horrible terror events !)
Kkyenn (from Italy)

[Rhadon]

We don't like automatic translations here as they are a pain to read. I'm tempering justice with mercy by moving this to the Water Cooler (where you could have posted this in the first place). This is your last warning, and I mean it the way I say it!

[Raynor88]

Hi, Sorry for posting at the brong topic in the brong forum :D as I said, I think it was 3 bombings in 3 diferent stations, I think that it were 13 bag bombs with titadine(The french stolen dynamite each 10-15kg) causing 180 kills and 900 wounded(At the moment...). FUCK ETA, INDEPENDENTISTAS=TERRORISTAS

[Bert]

Hi, Sorry for posting at the brong topic in the brong forum :D as I said, I think it was 3 bombings in 3 diferent stations, I think that it were 13 bag bombs with titadine(The french stolen dynamite each 10-15kg) causing 180 kills and 900 wounded(At the moment...). FUCK ETA, INDEPENDENTISTAS=TERRORISTAS

My condolences to the Spanish.

It's way to early to say who did this. The ETA has not done this type of thing in the past, and has allways taken credit for their operations before. They often send a warning in advance as well. The Spanish government announced it was ETA allmost immediately, far too soon for forensic and investigative work to be done. The elections are next week in Spain, and I've allready seen the NY Times announce that the bombings will help the party currently in power. In the past, ETA has tended to target politicians, police and judges rather than the general population.

Do you remember the last time the ETA tried to blow up a train track? Their bomb went off on the WRONG DAY. They must have gotten very much better at this for about a dozen devices in three locations to go off at nearly the same time.

[vulture]

Either way, whether it was the ETA or Al Quaeda, the Spanish people are fucked. I fear we might see the same terrorism frenzy in europe now as in the states. :mad:

May lighting strike down from the heavens and burn me on the spot if that's going to happen.

I also found it highly disgusting how the death of innocent people was immediatly hijacked by Bush, Straw and Putin to promote their War on Terror.

Yeah, let's carpet bomb yet another few thousands innocent citizens to make the world a safer place! :mad:

EDIT: BTW, those spanish EOD people have some fucking guts! Dismantling three live bombs while the others just went off around them. :eek:

[Raynor88]

Hi, I agree with you lets see tomorow but all evidences point to ETA:
1 Eta is the "local" terrorist group.
2 It was used titadine, the stolen dinamite in france by eta.
3 Eta have antecedents of mass bombing killing civilians like in the hipercor of Barcelona.
4 They have antecedents of the train bombing this new year is eve(I dont remember how it spells)
5 We are at elections and eta is desesperated after the ban intercepted in Burgos that have 500 kg of explosives(Cloratite I think that this is desesperated shit [Sodium chlorate, sugar and sulphur])

But yes it has been bery well planed for eta, here (Northern of Spain) they (The "kale borroka" their "sons") use campig-gas for "bomb" banks for fuck capitalists xDDD Beter we'll see tomorow...

[The Anarch]

I think automatic translations should be encouraged for the Water Cooler section because that was funny as hell to read.

Anyway, here is what I, as a stupid American, have heard from the papers.

Everyone thought that it was the ETA at first, but now they're just about sure it was Al Qaeda related. To be specific, a group related to Al Qaeda called the Brigade of (some arab-sounding gibberish) claimed responsibility, and they found a car at one of the parking lots of the train stations with 7 detonators and a video with Koran verses in Arabic on it.

The bombs used were left lying around in backpacks and suitcases, and contained titadine, which the paper I read said was a compressed (i suppose that means high-density) version of TNT. All of you are saying it was dynamite though, so i'm assuming the newspaper thinks TNT and dynamite are the same thing. Typical.

There were 13 bombs altogether, 7 went off on one train that was parked at a station while people were getting on and off, 1 was on a train parked right next to the train where the other 7 bombs went off, and 2 more went off on moving trains, all within minutes of each other. The remaining 3 were found and disarmed. They think they were possibly timed to kill rescue workers.

Death toll i've heard so far is 197, and 1000 something injured.

It sucks that this happened just as Howard Stern is about to be kicked off the air. Now I have too much to think about.

[nbk2000]

Everyone thought that it was the ETA at first, but now they're just about sure it was Al Qaeda related.


Didn't someone say in another thread that arab terrorists were operating in europe, specifically mention the basque seperatists as an example, and someone said no such thing was happening? And now it is? :p

Might not the basques be hooking up with more skilled arab terrs, in the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" mood of thinking? Could be. Wouldn't be the first time I've predicted these sorts of things correctly.

[Flake2m]

I think it was Al Qaeda in collaberation with ETA.
There trademark sign is multiple simulatanous detonation of many devices at once and I also don't think ETA would have the brains to plan and carry out the attack.
What I do suspect is that ETA and Al Qaeda have collaberated in this attack as ETA would have the local knowledge and an established network of cells, yet Al Qaeda has the experience and organisation to make the attack just that more devastating and scary.
I know there was atleast 11 seperate devices that went off and Vulture pointed out that 3 more were disarmed so that makes 14 devices. This attack was well planned and carrying to a devastating effect.

On an intresting note the attack occurred on the 11 of march. Exactly 911 days after September 11. Just makes the attack a little more creepy.

[wrench352]

Is this the beginning of the end? The spanish people voted the ruling party out of office,caving to the terrorists demands. No doubt there will only be more violence against other countries that support our war on terrorism. I think this might be the greatest collective mistake in all of human history.
Im sure this will be met with a littany of liberal anti Bush crap,but the fact remains, They (the terrorists) got what they wanted. I believe we'll have OBL before the end of the year, but I think its too late now.

[Arkangel]

Could it not be that they voted the ruling party out because they'd refused to listen to the will of the people? If 90% of Americans had opposed the war and Dubya had gone ahead anyway, but then been kicked out of office at the next election, would that not be regarded as a victory for democracy "in the HOME of democracy"? Should Spain have kept Aznar in power, simply to avoid people jumping to the conclusions that you're doing?

I don't think so.

Sure, people might infer that this is a "victory for this" or a "victory for that", but in reality, what happened was democracy in action - the people threw Aznar out, and that, according to most of my Spanish friends, was because he refused to listen to the will of the people - on the war and all sorts of other things. The rush to blame ETA (including instructions to embassies to blame ETA at every public opportunity) also made the Spanish public think there was something very wrong with their leadership.

It really pissed me off to see people writing into the BBC site, saying the Spaniards were cowards for capitulating to terrorism, when they've lived with it for so long already. This had nothing to do with capitulation, it was a simple message to Aznar "You're a worthless, lying hijo de puta, now fuck off!"

Personally I'm pleased that he's been kicked out - hopefully Bush, Blair and Berlusconi will be next. :D

And before I leave this topic for a bit - don't let yourselves get into thinking that you're dealing with simpletons with Al Quaeda. Attacks sponsored by them have in most cases been extremely well thought out, in many cases more successful than they can have dreamed of. Just because this attack was so "successful" doesn't mean that they'll assume that a repeat will be. I'd be really surprised if they did exactly the same again.

[vulture]

I doubt the ETA will ally itself with Al Quaeda. If they do, the government would have the perfect excuse to wipe them out without mercy.

Furthermore, for the conclusion jumpers:

ETA is not arab terrorism! They want a separate state, that's all. Also, their attacks are usually more symbolic than devastating. If they'd commit such an action just before the election, the only one they'd fuck is themselves as the people would vote for the party that would hunt them down and kill em.

Also, Spain is (or was) not representative for Europe, as Aznar was one of the very few to side with Bush. If you fuck up, you gotta face the consequences, that's democracy. If only our american friends would realize that before november.

I believe we'll have OBL before the end of the year, but I think its too late now.

Not the end of the year. Surely before the elections in November...

I'm not going to bother to try and make you guys come to your senses about Bush. If you want to fuck yourself and your country over, please do so.

We'll keep amusing ourselves to death with the monkey you guys put up in the whitehouse, the astronomic deficit growing even further, more american soldiers getting killed in useless conflicts and the whole world and it's mother that's pissed at you for being so warmongering.

[nbk2000]

I remember just very recently having mentioned that a certain type of discussion is off-limits, and some people are pushing their luck...

[knoddas]

Someone has hypothesis or theories or convictions on what and how have been used (speak about compositions, quality, amount, detonators, members or other) in these "plans of outbreak"?

The following text is taken from my local newspaper (swedish): www.dn.se
Translated by me.


According to the reputable newspaper, El Pais, the explosives were manufactured by Union Explosivos Espanoles (UEE), in Paramo de Masa.
The detonators (7 pieces, made of copper) which were found in a car in Alcala de Heneres, were also manufactured by the same company. They were stolen from a granite quarry in the mountains, north of Madrid.
How the terorists got hold of them is still a mystery.

[Raynor88]

Finally it was “Goma 2” (NG-Nitrocellulose) they use the old trick of the mobile phone to detonate the bombs xDDD

[megalomania]

Hmm, a bombing has drasticially affected the outcome of an election... so terrorism works :(

[vulture]

I don't think it can be dismissed that easily.

One could also expect the people to massively vote on Aznar to increase the efforts in the war on terror.

People could cope with the fact that he supported the war on Terror, because the economy in Spain did pretty well.
But, the fanatical efforts to try to blame the ETA shifted the balance I think.

If Aznar would have been really serious about the war on Terror, he would have acknowledged the fact that it were muslem terrorists and that therefore efforts should be increased. But the fact that he tried to smother that trail made the people wonder if he really believed in his war.

Also, there are some rumours going about that the party of Aznar was thinking of some coup d'etat right after the attacks. The credibility of the sources is unknown or questionable though.

[ossassin]

I think that the recent Baghdad is evidence that this terrorist group, probably Al-Qaeda, is trying to do the same thing to the United States that it did to Spain. Are we going to sit by and let the Socialists take over America, too? The terrorists know that if this happens, their safety is guaranteed. You'll have to forgive me if I've mispelled anything; I'm a little drunk.

[vulture]

What are you worrying about. Bush will get reelected. I'll bet $100 on that.

I wonder, what so bad about socialism? I can't get rid of the impression that you're thinking like socialism = communism = BAAADDD!!!

Oh sorry, I forgot, socialists are by nature cowards! Ofcourse! Please forgive me.

[nbk2000]

Nazis were socialists. :)

[Oversea]

After 2 years from Madrid bombings, it is unknown the composition of train bombs. It not exists chemical analysis of residues of train bombs. Only identification of explosive captured, 1 month later, to supposed suicides or explosive captured from circumstantial evidences. (A single explosive: industrial Spanish manufactured dynamite Goma-2 ECO).

Many Spanish people don’t believe in official investigation version.
If you want to know why, you can see it in this forum:
http://11m.fondodocumental.com/a/viewtopic.php?t=599 (English thread)

In Madrid Atocha station, a security camera recorded this sequence:
http://www.fondodocumental.com/11M/videos/311.trainbombs.tv2.wmv

If you watch this video as slowly as you can, you will see how explosion starts:
http://www.fondodocumental.com/11M/imagenes/destello.png

The question is:

What explosive is compatible with the blue luminescence of explosion starting?

[Bugger]

There must have been a "thermite" material, which emits large amounts of blue/violet and ultraviolet light, mixed in with the main explosive charge (having an oxidation surplus), for that. This could include powdered Mg, Al, and similar metals.

[nbk2000]

Hydrocarbon fuels like propane burn with a blue flame in proper ratios with the air.

[FUTI]

NBK is right, that recorded video clip looks to me like FAE. In France Algerian extremist were known by usage of propane based bombs. They used small chlorate charge to burst the canister containing propane. That infact gives something like BLEEVE I think...but they could be advancing in this field. Spain is not far away for technology transfer between cells to occur.

[Lewis]

Even though a still frame might look very blue, the explosion might have just been an intense white.

I remember shooting video of explosions that were white on a digital camera, and getting all sorts of different colours (blues, reds, purples) in the recorded product.