The final flashpowder contest

[Chris Shiherlis]

Just a short introduction: there is an endless discussion going on whether flashpowder detonates or not. In the thread "ANNM Al sensitized" Wantsomfet succeeded in detonating AN/NM with 3.5 gram flashpowder and inevitably the discussion started again.
I say flashpowder detonates, producing a shockwave, detonating the AN/NM mixture.
Most of you guys say it doesn't detonate it just deflagrates and the initiation of the secondary NM explosive is caused by the "rupturing of the tube" and this effect could be compared to the blow of a hammer (which we all know can set secondary high explosives off).
And additionally you say low (deflagrating) explosives (e.g. blackpowder) can set off secondary explosives (e.g. PETN).

Now, here is the solution to end this dispute once and forever:
try to detonate the AN/NM mixture with blackpowder. You don't have to use 3.5 gram like with flashpowder. And you don' have to use a small, thin walled, open ended cillinder. You can use a heavy firecracker or even a 10kg blackpowder charge in a heavy steel cilllinder. I don't care.

I say: it won't do shit! Even the 10kg charge. More precisely: the blackpowder will deflagrate and spread (and waste) the AN/NM mixture.

According to your theory that deflagrating low explosives will deliver a blow to the AN/NM causing it to detonate, blackpowder and flashpowder (being both deflagrating explosives in your opinion) can be considered equal. And using 3.5 gram of blackpowder should be equal to 3.5 gram flashpowder (according to you).
But let's play it save and use an overkill, so we can end this discussion once and for all.

If you don't succeed in detonating the AN/NM mixture it will proof that (deflagrating) LE's don't initiate (secondary) high explosives.

And it's already proven that flashpowder does. Which means if you don't succeed it proves that the flashpowder detonated.

Agree?

If it turns out that you all are right, I will apologize, disappear and never show up again. On the other hand if I am right, I want a five star rating and I want you to get Pamela Anderson to suck my dick (I will accept that as a apology and consider the case closed) :) . OK?

<small>[ May 22, 2002, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Chris Shiherlis ]</small>

[Chris Shiherlis]

Another easy test is the one XOO suggested. Put flashpowder in a metal capsule ignite (detonate :) ) it. Get the shrapnel and study it, and compare it to the shrapnel produced by an equal amount of AP and BP in the same kind of capsules. Should tell you it detonated (at least a part because the flashpowder starts deflagrating because of lack of confinement).
Anyway I would like to point out clearly that if the result to this test is positive it also means you get Pamela Anderson overhere, understood?
So no matter how you proof flashpowder detonates Pamela Anderson is part of the deal. No way to avoid that :) .

<small>[ May 22, 2002, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Chris Shiherlis ]</small>

[S. Toppholzer]

Well, as much as I know a foolproof way of proving a detonation has happened is the metal plate denting-test.
If you succed in detonating flashpowder on a metal plate and the plate is afterwards dented, you've succeded in detonating it.
I personally belive that flashpowder can be detonated under certain circumstances but the results will be unpredictable and unreliable - i.e. one time you succeed detonating it and the next time it won't detonate even you're using the same mixture and the same setup. I never made the afore mentioned test but once have been caught by surprise when I lit a flashpowder charge (the size of about a pack of cigarettes) through a small amount of Armstrong's mix that was set off by a regular fuse. Waht happened was what I'd defiantely call a shockwave. Awesome result for flashpowder. I never ever was able repeating this again...
When I was a kid farmers used to blow up tree stumps with ANFO that was initiated with a charge of flashpowder.
What actually happens (I believe) is that flash powder releases very hot gasses when burning, coupled with a short, but high pressure peak and particles of molten Al or iron oxide (as would be the case with termite mixtures)... This combined hits a secondary HE and makes it detonate.
The same principle (but much more reliable) for detonating secondary HE's via thermal/pyrotechnical initation is being used in <a href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='6,227,116'.WKU.&OS=PN/6,227,116&RS=PN/6,227,116" target="_blank">US Patent N° 6,227,116</a>

<small>[ May 22, 2002, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: S. Toppholzer ]</small>

[Anthony]

I have but two points:

1) Good flash deflagerates faster than BP - so they are not equal (how much difference this will make, I do not know)

2) Does the BP have to be in a standard blasting cap configuration, or can we do what we wish with it as long as only BP is used in the firing train?

Lastly a question: Does anyone have the impact sensitivity of ANNM to hand?

[Madog555]

flash doies not detonate. it is a fuel oxidizer mix. it does deflagerate extremely fast though.

it doesnt have a shockwave go throgh it. ok, here is proof. press flash into a pellet. now it has a high density. if it is ignited it wont go blam. it will only burn from one side of the pellet to the other very fast. if it was a HE it would detonate, the density would be high and the shockwave (not a flame) will travel faster through it. pressing a HE and pressing flash have oposite effects. flash needs a little air in it so it flashes through. a HE has a shockwave travel through it so it goes faster with a higher density.

[kingspaz]

well, what i'd like to say is i agree with everyone!
i believe flash does detonate and it doesn't!
i think is set off with a cap, like NaCl and vaseline (fuel+oxidiser), it will detonate. but if ignited it will burn extremely fast. i think the ANNM may have been set off by the expansion produced as the flash burns. when gases get hot they expand. flash burns VERY hot therefore the gas expands alot forming a kind of shockwave similar but not the same as an HE (kind of like a FAE but smaller). well thats my opnion anyways.

[Madog555]

yes!! that is probaly correct

it realy depends on the flash though.

there is a plastic explosive in KIPE1 that is KClO4/Al and motor oil(i think)

but when ignited it definately burns. but very fast

[SATANIC]

kingspaz - NaCl and vaseline :confused: as a detonator or to be detonated? i don't get what you're saying ??? I wouldn't have thought that would work.

I think there is the possibility of it detonating, though because it burns so fast (almost instantaneous for good stuff) it's hard to tell.

I have almost no experience with flash, but surely it wouldn't be sold in crackers / fireworks if there was any chance of it detonating......

[Madog555]

he means NaClO3, its a fairly weak plastic explosive used in in german greanades in WWI i think

[SATANIC]

makes sense. I didn't think it was a simple mistake. overlooked the obvious.

[Microtek]

I'll just make my position clear:
- I don't know whether flash detonates or not; I'd say it probably can, as KClO4 is comparable with AN which definitely is capable of detonation if mixed with fine Al powder. However, as any other flammable explosive it will need some time to make the DDT ( if it does at all ).

- I tend to think that the initiation may be caused by the intense thermal shock and high velocity metal particles ( Al from the flash ). As in silver acetylide where the liberated silver breaks the chemical bonds in the secondary explosive, or in exploding bridgewire detonators where the vaporized copper "slaps" the explosive with a similar effect.

- About the test proposed by Chris, that will only prove anything if the test is positive; it's a basic mathematical theorem that it is impossible to prove a negative statement. Of course, with enough negative repetitions you may say that the black powder method is an impractical method of initiating ANNM.
However, it should be possible to examine whether flash exhibits the effects of colliding shockwaves if initiated simultaneously from each end. So, I propose the following test:
A circular flash-charge of uniform loading density is placed on a witness plate and ignited at on point of the circle. Then, if the charge achieves detonation, the shockwaves should collide at about the opposite point on the circle and this would be evident from a significantly deeper dent at this point.

[S. Toppholzer]

yep. Just as I suggested. Easy English: the "denting test".
And Madog - no: this ain't no prove at all. There are many HE's that won't detonate but burn when lit.

[inferno]

Im open to another view, but im pretty sure flash cant be detonated like a HE, but maybe detonated like armstrongs. The force from the detonator is rather like hitting it with a hammer, which will ignite armstrongs most of the time, and flash, which i have no experience with, i think can be ignited that way.

Say a basic flash mix of KMnO4 + Al. You cant detonate pure Al, which means its the pot. permanganate that must be detonating. If thats the case, youre saying that KMnO4 is a HE, possibly sensitized by the Al. If all flash mixes are detonatable, that means all the oxidisers used in pyrotechnics are HE's. That could also say that all nitrates, chlorates, permanganates, perchlorates are HE's, even something like antimony chlorate. NH4NO3 is a HE, but i think thats more to do with the ammonium than the nitrate, however there is a post floating about in the HE section about KNO3+NM HE, however the mix failed to detonate from a cap of 1g hmtd and 1g petn.

What i think happens with flash is that the sudden thermal shock and the high velocity particles of burning metals (as someone said before) detonates the secondary. Flash deflagrates really fast, and possibly a small shockwave is created. If flash was ignited in a metal tube, the shock of the metal being broken could possibly detonate the secondary. But the hot gasses suddenly expanding would create a somewhat weak shockwave of sorts, though i doubt that alone could detonate a secondary. The thermal shock, combined with the fast moving metal pieces and the expansion probably combine to detonate the he.

<small>[ May 23, 2002, 06:05 AM: Message edited by: inferno ]</small>

[Chris Shiherlis]

You start to piss me off again.
I present to you a simple easy test that will proof once and forever if flashpowder detonates, and you start babbling on about that you believe it doesn't detonate, or just sometimes, or something in between, or whatever.
If you agree to the test (and are able to come up with your end of the deal: getting Pamela Anderson over to my place :) ), just fuckin' do it.
Stick a firecracker, a metal pipe, a 10 kg charge of blackpowder (or what ever you believe is equal to 3.5 gram deflagrating flashpowder)in the AN/NM and ignite it! (so the same set up as Wantsomfet used with flashpowder and not BP on top of AN/NM in a pipe or something else, if that's what you mean Anthony).

And the metal plate denting test is also a easy test compairable to the test XOO suggested. And I will tell you: a flashpowder charge ignited by flame and somehow confined, will dent the plate. Not as deep as AP though.
And don't start talking now that it doesn't prove detonation.

STOP talking!, just do the fuckin' test I proposed.
I'll be waiting at home, waiting for the phone to ring for that sweet and familiar voice asking if it suits tonight. Yes baby, come on over, I'll be waiting :) .

[DBSP]

Why don't you do it yourself??

[Chris Shiherlis]

First of all, I don't have to convince myself that flashpowder detonates. I know it and I've seen it.
Secondly, you would not believe me, would you?
But I see I start to get a bit unpolite again. Sorry about that (it just happens when I get irritated). So let me rephrase it: please do the test, it will give a clear result and bring an end to the discussion. It's just the most easy way. So please.

[Chris Shiherlis]

And there's another reason for you to do the test: the chance to get rid of me. That irritating, know-it-all, asshole that keeps bothering you.
(well, I have to admit it's not much of a chance, but worth a try don't you think? :) ).

[Demolition]

I'll drive 200 kms next week to pick up some NM and do the test just so you'll stop your whinging and shut your mouth. :mad:
And hopefully fuck you off from this great place which over the last couple of days has been degraded from your constant demands and 'I know it all dont give a fuck about anyone else' attitude.

[Chris Shiherlis]

I will definetely "fuck off" and even apologize before, if I am wrong.
But even if I'm right I will reconsider my contribution to the Forum, because clearly the chemistry between me and you guys isn't working (well actually it's kind of explosive :) ).
But believe me when I say that it was certainly not my intention. I visited the Forum with the best intentions. I even hoped to make some friends. But it got a bit hostile and offensive the last couple of days. But you should try to see it from my point of view: it's me against you all. No one backing me up, just on my own. In that postion everyone would get a bit defensive.

[Anthony]

People are questioning the validity of your test - I don't see what's wrong with that. You have to see their logic though, detonating ANNM with BP only proves that ANNM can be detonated by deflagerating BP. Say that the ANNM does detonate from the BP, that doesn't definitely mean that flash doesn't detonate.

Anyway, what my proposition was, is a metal pipe containing a slug of appreciable mass. A charge of BP is ignited behind the slug and the slug accelerates into an ANNM sample against a steel plate - in effect a BP powdered hammer. I'm sure you'd object to this method but it still would be detonating ANNM with BP, no?

inferno - previously the KNO3/NM *did* detonate with a 1gm HMTD, 1gm PETN cap.

[Microtek]

Note that the test I proposed wasn't a plate dent test where you measure the depth of the dent produced; that is a quantitative test whereas what we need is a qualitative one. Lots of things that don't detonate will dent a steel plate, such as rifle bullets or pipe bombs.
The property that is tested is the presence of shockwaves, so you are looking for a place where the dent is significantly deeper than everywhere else, which will signify that there has been a collision at that point.

[S. Toppholzer]

Chris - as I said before I witnessed once a thing that seemed like a detonation of flash powder. This leads me to believe it can be detonated. So assuming it detonates: How many grams of flash powder do you think is needed to produce a detonation force equivalent to a #6 or a #8 detonator? If you think you could at least guess the amount, why don't you just take the equivalent amount, make a det. cap with it and try it on another, preferably more insensitive HE like, say TNT?
If this then would detonate TNT, I'll try getting in touch with Pam (nah, better not - she might decide she cannot live without me) :D

[Mr Cool]

Are we allowed to add other sensitisers to the ANNM, like microspheres?
And do we have to use ANNM? Can we use another secondary HE, e.g. mannitol hexanitrate? A BP charge could detonate that, no problem at all. Could I use NaClO3/NC/Al/microspheres? It's a secondary, like ANNM, but I'm even scared about dropping it...

I don't see how any test could prove that flash does or does not detonate, since if something decomposes by deflagrating at 1 km/sec, it will have identical effects to something that decomposes due to a shock wave at 1 km/sec.
The plate dent test is only a demonstration of the brisance of an explosive, and every explosive has brisance or "shattering ability". BP was used in mining because it was could shatter rocks. Any explosive can dent a plate when it's set off, because no-one has specified the thickness of the plate. Can we use Al foil? I'm sure that everyone here will accept that a piece of Al foil is a (thin) metal plate, and that it will be dented by a firecracker. Proof that the firecracker detonates? No. And if you say that there is a minimum thickness to the plate - say, for example, 1", if we scale up the firecracker to a 1 ton BP charge, then it will dent the plate as if it was made from modelling clay.

A secondary high explosive can be detonated by anything, IF: the thing used to detonate the SHE has a sufficient energy density to break enough bonds in the area surrounding it to cause a self-sustaining detonation wave; AND if it releases that energy in a short enough time, i.e. it must produce a peak power equal to or in excess of a certain value. These two things vary for diferent explosives; therefore for NG, a BP charge might be energetic enough and fast enough to cause a detonation. But for ANFO, it would not be. Normal ANFO can not be detonated by a cap containing 0.1g of silver azide. Does that mean that silver azide does not detonate?? NO! It just means that the energy contained in that amount of explosive, when spread accross the area of ANFO in contact with the cap, is insufficient to cause a detonation.

If we put flash in a metal pipe and look at the shrapnel it won't prove anything either. If it broke the pipe into a thousand pieces, would you say it detonated? Yes. What about if it broke it into a hundred pieces? Again, almost certainly yes. But when will we decide that it did not detonate? Ten pieces? Five pieces? Two pieces? It's impossible to say.

Let's be honest though - does anyone here really care if flash detonates or not? Will proving or disproving it really make a big impact on anyone's lives? It reminds me of the discussion about whether or not a #3 cap could detonate KClO3/vaseline. It doesn't bloody matter!!!

Oh, and Chris: if you touch my girl I'll kill you, no matter what flash powder does :)

P.S. - I vote Wantsomfet gets HED for bringing up this argument again :) :)

[xoo1246]

I think we all agree on the fact that flash can detonate.
KClO3 is a H.E., some of you have used it with vaseline.
Can it detonate from chock, yes, can it burn to detonation(KClO3/Al), yes under the right conditions. Will it always do that, no. Will it sometimes detonate partially, yes.
I belive flash is a border case, not very sutible as a primary, but could be used with sensitive secondaries.

I have learnt a lesson anyway.

[Anthony]

"If you can waste at least an hour arguing whether or not flash detonates - then maybe you're a pyro..."

A poignant quote a I feel :) Also, Pamela Anderson??? Keep the skanky whore!

Personally, I'd like some kind of result to come of this thread, whether it's proof or not or whether flash detonates, or even us all putting our differences aside, embracing each other and spening the rest of our lives living in a remote commune where we all make clothes from hemp and sing songs from the 60's :)

Having a conclusive answer would a) put this recurring argument here to rest b) prove to others what the resources of theforum's members can achieve. What do they think about flash at explosives newsgroups? They tend to have some pretty well informed people, my bet is that they argue inconclusively too...

If we are actually going to do this, what are we going to define as "flash"? There's lots of types and some are obviously far superior to others, it's possible that some can under certain circumstances make the DTD transition whilst other, probbaly slower mixes couldn't.

I don't see a problem with people disagreeing, or arguing their point or opinion, the only thing not permitted is flaming/insults at that point things have degraded and people do not respect each other and nothing good will come of the thread.

Chris, why don't you explain *why* you so strongly believe that flash detonates? You say you've seen it, it would be helpful if you would divulge. People here will not accept blind faith, it's just who everyone is - the kind of people who demand the facts or proof before believing.

[Anthony]

"If you can waste at least an hour arguing whether or not flash detonates - then maybe you're a pyro..."

A poignant quote a I feel :) Also, Pamela Anderson??? Keep the skanky whore!

Personally, I'd like some kind of result to come of this thread, whether it's proof or not or whether flash detonates, or even us all putting our differences aside, embracing each other and spening the rest of our lives living in a remote commune where we all make clothes from hemp and sing songs from the 60's :)

Having a conclusive answer would a) put this recurring argument here to rest b) prove to others what the resources of theforum's members can achieve. What do they think about flash at explosives newsgroups? They tend to have some pretty well informed people, my bet is that they argue inconclusively too...

If we are actually going to do this, what are we going to define as "flash"? There's lots of types and some are obviously far superior to others, it's possible that some can under certain circumstances make the DTD transition whilst other, probbaly slower mixes couldn't.

I don't see a problem with people disagreeing, or arguing their point or opinion, the only thing not permitted is flaming/insults at that point things have degraded and people do not respect each other and nothing good will come of the thread.

Chris, why don't you explain *why* you so strongly believe that flash detonates? You say you've seen it, it would be helpful if you would divulge. People here will not accept blind faith, it's just who everyone is - the kind of people who demand the facts or proof before believing.

[xoo1246]

We got it the first time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Well, why don't we make the tests(fragentation, ANFO ,metal plate dent, etc.), to see if we can get any wiser.
I wish I could, BUT I don't have access to a ball-mill/KClO3(only permanganate) yet.
Another thing, doesn't commercial flashpowder contain perchlorate, not chlorate.
Argh, my small brain can't handle this delicate problem.

<small>[ May 23, 2002, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[DBSP]

I've got the mill :) <img src="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/ballmill.jpg" alt="" />

[xoo1246]

Hmm, Isn't that a stone tumbler "Lortone 33A"?
I bet it is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[DBSP]

It's a lortune allright, actually works quite well.

Got this Al by milling for 5 days
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/milled_Al.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/milled_Al.jpg</a>

<small>[ May 23, 2002, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: DBSP ]</small>

[xoo1246]

You should see my 25um coated Al flakes, really low density.
Did you use any oil or something when you milled the Al? What milling media are you using?
Oups, this threat is starting to look like a ball milling thread, sorry.
Back to topic.

<small>[ May 23, 2002, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[Chris Shiherlis]

Anthony: you're right I don't agree with your proposal. Getting BP to slam a kind of hammer onto a H.E. is a very nice idea but not that's not what I ment. By the way do you realise you called the girlfriend of MrCool a whore?
MrCool: I will not touch Pamela with one finger (as long as she touches me I'm satisfied :) ).
By the way, the dent test is controversial I know. But supersonic deflagration. Does that exist? And subsonic detonation? I thought that if the speed of reaction is supersonic it's not only by definition a detonation but the proces is also no longer propagation by heat but by shock. But I see what you're doing. Just by calling the detonation of flashpowder a "supersonic deflagration with the same effect as a detonation" (nice try) you think you don't have to come up with your end of the deal, that is sending your girlfriend. Well, don't think so.

And thanks to Topfholzer and Xoo for backing me up. I'll give Pam your phonenumbers when I'm done.

And most of all, thanks to Demolition, the only one getting out there actually performing the test, for the wrong reasons but anyway. And it will be Demolition I'll have to thank that Pamela is gonna make it up to me (say Demolition, does it really take a week?! I'm getting a bit nervous already (Btw, sorry that it will waste your perfectly good AN/NM.).

<small>[ May 23, 2002, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Chris Shiherlis ]</small>

[Demolition]

Why dont you suggest what the ANNM/Al test using BP as the intiator will prove Chris.Are you saying that if it successfully detonates ANNM/Al it means that blackpowder detonates :rolleyes: or that if it doesnt it proves that flashpowder does. :rolleyes:
You cant say that it does or it doesnt from this test,as stated already above it just shows wether ANNM/Al can be detonated using blackpowder,the same as in the other thread,it just showed that ANNM/Al can be detonated using flashpowder,thats all.It doesnt show any evidence of flash detonating.
Why doesnt someone with some spare NG or MHN lying around detonate it using blackpowder in a copper pipe just to show Chris that HE's dont always necessary need a detonating explosive to detonate them.

I suggest to read over Mr Cool's post and see why secondary HE's detonate.

<small>[ May 23, 2002, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: Demolition ]</small>

[CyclonitePyro]

There is almost two definitions of detonation that coincide. One being any explosion that explodes faster than the speed of sound. And the other being an explosion propagated be a shock front.

You can make combos out of these definitions.
-slower than the speed of sound, propagated by flame front(BP)
-slower than the speed of sound, propagated by shock front(doesn't exist(
-faster than the speed of sound, propagated by flame front(flash sometimes or all)
-faster than the speed of sound, propagated by shock front(general acceptance of HE's, TNT, RDX, PETN....Maybe flash)

[Microtek]

There is another, more solid characteristic that distinguishes detonating explosives from deflagrating ones, and that is is direction the reaction products are travelling. In a deflagration, the reaction products are being ejected backwards ( when the propagation of the reaction front is considered forward ), but in a detonating explosive a considerable amount of the products is travelling forwards. Because LEs eject their products to the rear ( and do not propagate by shock ), no radial cutting effect will be produced if an LE charge is ignited from both ends at the same time.
Therefore, my suggested test will discriminate positively if the witness plate is strong enough not to be penetrated by the explosion, but not so strong as to make identification of the radial effect too difficult.

[inferno]

I can see that even after numerous tests, this topic will still remain fiercely debated. If someone has a *really* fast camera, maybe we could take photos to see if its burning or detonating :) but that wont happen.

So, there are a lot of tests we can do, but there will still be debates. I have no experience with flash, so im not a very authoritarian figure on this. One thing we have to do though is define flash. It can be anything, KClO3+Al, KClO4+Mg+S, theres hundreds of flash mixes. Not just mixtures, but proportions etc. KClO3+Al seems to be the most likely to be a HE because of the semi-he chlorate. But then other mixes mightnt detonate. We have to define flash first, what mixture and what proportion.

Personally i think that flash just deflagrates extremely fast, and the sudden expansion of particles and gases makes it very powerful. Flash is probably the most powerful LE.

I saw in another post a member who said that he made large BP explosives (kind of like massive salutes) that made a shockwave you could see as a blur extending out from the charge. I dont know exactly how he made them, but its possible the "blur" was just tiny pieces of shrapnel or paper that appeared to make a blur. Or it may have actually been a shockwave. If BP can make a shockwave, flash definately can. There may be more involved with LE's than "meets the eye", eg more than just a very fast burning and expanding powder.

[Mr Cool]

Chris: I'm pretty sure supersonic deflagration can exist in a porous LE - the hot gases can be expanding faster than the speed of sound (in air), and igniting the explosive that they contact due to the fact that they're hot, not because of the kinetic energy or whatever that they posses.
And I suppose that in a HE of low enough density a shock wave could, in theory, travel slower than the speed of sound in air, therefore you could have a subsonic detonation.
I know that one definition of detonation is when the reaction is propagated faster than the speed of sound; if we use this one, then flash definitely detonates. But I'm not convinced that it's propagated by shock in a (small) charge of flash that's detonated by flame. I see no reason to assume that the process changes once the speed of propagation exceeds 340 m/s or whatever the speed of sound is, since that number is in no way related to the explosive or the reaction products or anything else.
Well I personally don't care at all if flash detonates or not, so I will now leave the decades of arguing to you guys...

Anthony: OK, so Pamella wouldn't be my first choice, or even my second or third, but can you honestly say that if she asked, you wouldn't? Any hole's a goal!

[inferno]

Good point mr cool, about the speed of sound and the speed of deflagrating flash. It may burn so fast that by some definitions, it detonates. It also depends on the mix. A fast burning flash ignited by flame will send out hot gases very fast, igniting the flash next to it, at such a rate (possibly supersonic) that it almost seems to be detonating. If it going supersonic, some kind of sonic boom could be created by the particles, and this would add to the bang of a bursting salute, if it happened.

Flash burning at 1200km/h is burning at about 1/4 the detonation velocity of anfo, which wouldnt give it 1/4 the power but would still have a lot of power, in the thermal shock, sudden expansion etc, that it creates.

[Chris Shiherlis]

Look guys, you can say anything you want. You can call a detonation a deflagration at supersonic speed but it's the same as saying "no MrCool, your girlfriend (well, ex girlfriend by the end of the week :) ) Pamela Anderson didn't give me a blowjob, it was just oral sex and yes it did have the same enjoyable effect but that doesn't prove a thing".

Now, seriously. There is no such thing as a supersonic deflagration. That is BY DEFINITION a detonation.
Once again:
1. Under normal conditions and generally speaking secondary explosives need a shockwave from a detonation primary explosive to detonate. So Wantsomfet already proved flashpowder detonated.
And yes under certain specific conditions H.E. can be detonated by other means (by flame, heat, deflagration), I know, and I even gave an example of it, but those conditions differ dramatically from the
normal.
2. So the test is only to make clear that deflagrating explosives CAN'T set off secondary explosives like AN/NM (under normal conditions) like you seem to believe.

So do the test, and do the other tests and then this discussion IS over. Only fools who can't face the facts will keep going on and on. But they always do. Besides I'm waitng for that blowjob.

[Chris Shiherlis]

And to avoid misunderstanding and confusion go to <a href="http://www.galcit.caltech.eduedu/~jeshep/html/Glossary.html" target="_blank">http://www.galcit.caltech.eduedu/~jeshep/html/Glossary.html</a> for the definitions. Maybe there are better sites but this one was the first I found and I think these more or less scientific definitions get rid of some misunderstandings.

[Chris Shiherlis]

Sorry small mistake (and I am unable to edit my posts) so again: please :) go to: <a href="http://www.galcit.caltech.edu/~jeshep/html/Glossary.html" target="_blank">http://www.galcit.caltech.edu/~jeshep/html/Glossary.html</a>

By the way, I also wasn't quite sure anymore about the exact definitions.

[vulture]

The first few pages of the complete book of flashpowder state that an amount of 2 oz. (how many gr is that?) can detonate when ignited.
There is a composition with ammoniumnitrate in the book, so maybe it can't be considered as straight flash, however I doubt that an AN flash would make DDT.

[Chris Shiherlis]

Should be 200 gram. I suppose they mean that a pile of 2 oz. of unconfined flashpowder will detonate when ignited. At least that's what I expect since 1 gram flashpowder confined in a paper tube already undergoes the DDT when ignited. And small amounts of flashpowder unconfined deflagrate very quickly (in one flash) so with bigger amounts the pressure is apparently built up to the point where deflagration turns into detonation.
Thank you Vulture for this information, I'll give you the phonenumber of Pamela in about two-three weeks :) .

[vulture]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> A good quality flash has a critical mass of approximately 2 ozs., which means it would detonate in open air, uncontained, when ignited . A smaller amount will burn violently, but with no report or concussion wave. It takes approximately 500 lbs. of blackpowder to form an open air critical mass explosion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Taken from the complete book of flashpowder, page 32.

EDIT: I'd rather like J.Lo than Pam if you don't mind....

<small>[ May 25, 2002, 06:19 AM: Message edited by: vulture ]</small>

[Chris Shiherlis]

OK thanks, I'll see what I can do for you.
Some other sites:

<a href="http://www.fireandsafety.eku.edu/VFRE-99/Recognition/General/general.htm" target="_blank">www.fireandsafety.eku.edu/VFRE-99/Recognition/General/general.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.fireandsafety.eku.edu/VFRE-99/Theory/Definitions/definitions-1.htm" target="_blank">www.fireandsafety.eku.edu/VFRE-99/Theory/Definitions/definitions-1.htm</a>

<a href="http://machine.chem.ohiou.edu/~mccord/week2-3.pdf" target="_blank">http://machine.chem.ohiou.edu/~mccord/week2-3.pdf</a>

Good sites, although they classify flashpowder as a low explosive :) . Well it is under specific circumstances: unconfined and below 2 ozs :) . But they also classify smokeless powder as a L.E. which as we all know can detonate just as well. So don't let this fool you. Convince yourself by doing the test.

<small>[ May 25, 2002, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: Chris Shiherlis ]</small>

[Anthony]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> A good quality flash has a critical mass of approximately 2 ozs., which means it would detonate in open air, uncontained, when ignited . A smaller amount will burn violently, but with no report or concussion wave. It takes approximately 500 lbs. of blackpowder to form an open air critical mass explosion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">This isn't right, by this guy's reckoning, 500lbs of blackpowder will detonate unconfined??? Also, Smokeless powder will not make DDT under anything like normal circumstances, if it can at all.

2oz is about 57gm I'll make up 60gm of KMnO4 flash sometime next week and ignite it unconfined.

OT: I think I'd rather have the satisfaction of turning her down, I never have liked her. "Any hole's a goal!" - spooky, that was our gruff, homosexual PE teacher's motto (he got suspended one time for touching up a kid)

<small>[ May 25, 2002, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Anthony ]</small>

[BrAiNFeVeR]

I'm certain that some kinds of flash can detonate (chlorate mixes), but if you really want to know for sure, why not try to detonate flash with, lets say, a detonator ...

Then you instantly know if it is cabable of detonation or not. But I really don't think that KMnO4 flash is able to detonate.

And about the choice of women in this thread, please guys, I thought the amount of good taste was a bit higher in this place !!

[Demolition]

60 grams of KMnO4 flash is going to be one huge flash and/or boom. :D

<img src="http://www.angelfire.com/retro/mafsexplosives/Flash1.gif" alt="" />
Thats about 8 grams IIRC lit unconfined.No boom,just an extremely loud 'WHOOSH'. :p

<small>[ May 25, 2002, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Demolition ]</small>

[inferno]

(Before i say anything, 2oz is approx 56 grams, 1oz = about ~28 grams)

I was posting a post before that i ended up losing when my $#^#@^ computer froze, but basically i was saying that some flash mixes could detonate (chlorate based ones). Anyway, i agree with brainfever on two points - someone try and det flash (if you have the chems, try a chlorate based, and a permanganate based flash) with a detonator. No rules on the size of the det, make a 50g hmtd det if you want.

The flash could detonate like a secondary HE, or ignite as if hit with a hammer blow. If flash detonated, i dont think thered be any flash. I might be wrong that there will be no flash, but the flash is the extremely rapid burning of the metal (Mg or Al). If it detonated, the metal wouldnt be burning (would it??).

Apparently armstrongs mix can be detonated. I have no arguments against this low explosive being detonated, but the shockwave from the detonator is like a hammerblow to the armstrongs, and armstrongs is pretty damn sensitive to shock and friction. The metal pieces from the det are the same as a small hammer hitting the mix too. If there was no metal involved, the mix is also very heat sensitive. The heat from the detonator ingredients would also set it off. I think flash is the same as armstrongs in that respect.

Chlorate flashes would be like Al sensitized AN, chlorates (at least some) are HE's and if Al can sensitize AN, it could sensitize chlorates in the same way. (But then, armstrongs is also chlorate based...)

So i think some flashes could be detonated, but not all.

The other point i agree with brainfever on is the women! Please guys, theres better women than Pamela! *waits for AP putty salutes to be thrown his way*

PS Demolition, how far away is that photo taken from?

<small>[ May 25, 2002, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: inferno ]</small>

[Demolition]

It was a still taken from a video ive got with various experiments on it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> It was about 10 meters away.

LOL,just thinking back to that video....

[Friend 1] fuck
[Friend 2] ah fuck my eyes
[Friend 3] did you see that fucking flash
[myself with video camera in hand] I think I got it :) (while im seeing white spots in my vision looking into pitch black)

[inferno]

Shit, thats some expansion! if 8g of flash can expand that much, it must be powerful!

And anyone who wants to see the pic and doesnt know how, (with IE at least) right click on the angelfire pic, go to "properties" then highlight the link and right click again and go to copy. Open a new window and paste it.

And demo, i saw ur from aus, whered you get the Al? I cant find it any bloody where

<small>[ May 25, 2002, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: inferno ]</small>

[xoo1246]

There would be flash, the metal is ideed burning. But I don't think the flash would be visible at day.

[vulture]

I think KMnO4 flash is going to detonate far better than KClO3 flash because it's a much more powerful oxidizer! It also burns much faster than KClO3 flash.

About the choice of women, do you consider <a href="http://www.jenniferlopez.com" target="_blank">J.Lo</a> as a bad one?

<small>[ May 25, 2002, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: vulture ]</small>

[nbk2000]

BP used to be used in detonators for Nitroglycerin back before the discovery of mercury fulminate as a detonator. So BP can initiate a HE. But that doesn't prove shit since no amount of BP is going to set off ANFO or CL-20.

Whereas, flashpowder salutes I've made (KCLO3/S/Al wrapped in newspaper casings) have broken concrete paving stones that I set them off on. This doesn't prove that flash detonates, but it sure the hell isn't weak!

So I think it's all relative. Does flash detonate or burn? Who really cares? If it sets off another explosive, then I say it detonated. If it doesn't, then it just deflagerated.

Chris, while you do make some interesting points, and are rather humorous, you're also rather disruptive. Keep your tendencies for sarcasm in check or face the Wrath of NBK. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

PS: I've always been partial to Jennifer Tilley myself (watch "Bound". Rwwwaarr!). But J-Lo will do in a pinch. Of course, I'd have to kill her afterwards since she is a mud, no matter how pretty she is. :p

[Chris Shiherlis]

Me sarcastic? :)
Well, finally the opinions are changing and some tend to believe that flashpowder might detonate. I'm almost happy.
To convince you even more: yes, flashpowder can also be detonated by a detonator. There is even a way to make a plastic explosive that can be used unconfined from flashpowder and motoroil, and that is initiated by a detonator.
And it will surely flash or do you think the alumminium powder comes out unharmed by the reaction?
But there might be some differences between certain flashpowders. The ones I was talking about consist of chlorates with aluminium. I don't know if the permanganate flashpowder will act the same. Besides Wantsomfet was using the chlorate type.

And like NBK said, if it (flashpowder) can detonate high explosives it probably detonates. Well Wantsomfet just proved that. And 'The Test' will show that deflagrating explosives are not able to detonate secondary high explosives (under normal conditions).
And that blackpowder used to detonate nitroglycerine does indeed prove nothing, since (liquid) nitroglycerine I wouldn't classify as a secondary, insensitive high explosive. I would rather call it a primary or else a very sensitive and dangerous H.E. (I for one won't go near it).
And the example NBK gives of flashpowder salutes breaking stones is proving it detonates. In fact you describe basicly the dent test. Deflagrating explosives don't dent a metal plate (only maybe pierce/dent it with fragments, but that's easy to recognize).

<small>[ May 26, 2002, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: Chris Shiherlis ]</small>

[vulture]

Well I believe some flashpowders can detonate, the test breaking the stone doesn't prove it detonates. If it can detonate, it can break the stone while it's unconfined. In NBK's case it was confined.

So if you want to prove flash detonates, place flash unconfined in a strong metal object which has an opening bigger than 3cm. Put a primary with a fuse in it, making sure the fuse can not throw any burning particles in the flash. An even better test would be using a container that almost can't be ruptured and put some larger stones in it. If they are reduced to sand after the test, it detonates. However, don't use 5gr of Ap and 5gr of flash, that will of course shatter the stone! Always use an acceptable ratio primary/flash. something like 1:20.

Now Chris, while I've got nothing against it that you bring this question up, but I suggest you start testing and gathering evidence (video, pictures, other forum member). This will chance people's attitude towards you considerably.

<small>[ May 26, 2002, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: vulture ]</small>

[Microtek]

Chris: The test you proposed does not provide definite proof, and neither do the others contemplated here. The one I suggested and which noone has commented on does, so I suggest that you use this for laying this to rest. I'd do it myself, but I have access to neither sufficiently fine metal powder nor high grade chlorate.

[mongo blongo]

I'm not quite sure if it detonates or not. If it does though why is there no information floating about of it's VOD?

[inferno]

Vulture - if it detonated, the oxidising properties of the oxidiser wouldn't matter because it doesn't need oxygen to detonate.

Microtek, i dont quite get youre experiment, i understand the direction stuff but not what you want to actually test?

As flash is not a chemical composition, but rather a mix of a pure metal powder and an oxidiser, the oxidiser must be the HE if it detonates. Chlorates are HE's, so chlorates flashes could detonate, KNO3 can be detonated to some extent, what about permanganate/perchlorates? If permanganates arent HEs then permanganate flash wont detonate.

Therefore, some flash mixes would be detonatable (chlorates and nitrates, maybe perchlorates and permanganates) while others would not be. I think deflagrating flash is just incredibly powerful, in the way it expands, heat, etc. It may deflagrate so fast it does send out a shockwave of somekind.

As for blowing up rocks, that could be done with any LE, the sudden expansion will split the rock. Anyway the point is some flash mixes could be detonated, some couldnt be.

[Microtek]

Allright, I'll describe my suggestion in a little more detail:

- Take a piece of hose about 40-50 cm in length with an internal diameter large enough to accomodate the supposed critical diameter of flash ( say 10 mm ).

- Fill this hose completely with flash. Compression is optional.

- Bend the ends of the hose together, forming a circle, and place a means of ignition inside the hose where the two ends meet. It can be electrical or fuse ignition.

- Tape the ends of the hose together securely.

- Place the charge on a metal plate that is strong enough to resist the explosion, but soft enough that a dent will be produced where the hose is in contact with the plate.

- Ignite the charge.

The following will happen:

- Ignition occurs at the place where the two ends meet.

- The flash starts to deflagrate in both directions through the hose.

- If the flash is capable of DDT, the deflagration will at some point turn into detonation.

- If that is the case, the two detonation wave fronts will travel the rest of the way around the hose and meet at some point. At this meeting point the radial component will be much greater than at any other point on the circle, thus the dent in the metal will be much deeper.

- If the flash is not capable of going from deflagration to detonation, there will be no detonation waves, only burn zones. These reaction zones will also travel around the rest of the circle, but when they meet, no radial amplification will take place so the dent in the metal will be the same as the other points around the surface.

It's basically the same test that is used for determining relative detonation velocities, only configured to give a yes/no answer to the question of detonation.

[Chris Shiherlis]

The test will prove (to you) that deflagrating explosives are NOT able to set off secondary high explosives.
Wantsomfet proved flashpowder does set off AN/NM, a secondary high explosive. And since that class of explosives is insensitive to shock, friction, heat and deflagrating explosives and needs a strong shock like from a primary explosive to detonate (under the normal conditions), Wantsomfet proved the flashpowder detonated. Simple. But I've said it a hundred times by now.
Even NBK is with me on this.

<small>[ May 27, 2002, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Mr Cool ]</small>

[Mr Cool]

I know I said I'd stay out of this, but Chris' flawed logic is beginning to piss me off. I wish being an arsehole was against Forum rules, so we could ban him...

"deflagrating explosives are NOT able to set off secondary high explosives."

Several examples have been given where LE's do set off SHE's, such as PETN and NG.

"And since that class of explosives is insensitive to shock, friction, heat and deflagrating explosives"

We could just as easily say that Wantsomfet has proved that class of explosives IS sensitive to deflagrating explosives, since you have not given us any evidence that only a detonation can set off a SHE, therefore neither have you given us any evidence that flash powder detonates.

"a secondary high explosive. And since that class of explosives is insensitive to shock, friction, heat"

There is no clear point at which a HE stops being a PHE and starts being a SHE. Therefore, all HE's are sensitive to shock, friction and heat, just as PHE's are, but SHE's are simply less sensitive. They can still be set off by the same stimuli, if the stimulus is sufficiently energetic.

I agree with you that flash can detonate, I'm even perfectly willing to accept that the stuff used to detonate the ANNM DID detonate, but your arguments are WRONG.

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

Detonation is where an explosive is detonated by a shockwave travelling through the explosive. Deflagration is where an explosive explodes because of a flame front travelling at high speeds. I think the situation with flash powder is the same as with nitrocellulose. If ignited by a fuse, it will deflagrate. If set off by a shockwave (detonator-initiated) then it will detonate. If you set off a little pile of flash powder by whacking it with a hammer, it will detonate. If you set off a little pile of flash powder with a fuse, it will deflagrate.

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Now, seriously. There is no such thing as a supersonic deflagration. That is BY DEFINITION a detonation.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">This would mean that a deflagration at sea level could be a detonation on a mountain. That definition is awful, and is subjected to varying environmental factors. I highly recommend using the shockwave/flame-front definition.

[vulture]

That defition is BS, because most flashpowders which when ignited and show no effect of detonation, easily reach 1000m/s, whereas the speed of sound generally is around 340m/s.

[kingspaz]

i'd like to also point out that that definition is bullshit, and so are all definitions in general. you can't define something which still contains uncertainties. detonation is the phenomenon of solid turning to mass almost instantly. the burning of flash may appear to be almost instant. but as i have allready said i think the real explination as to why the ANNM detonated from the flash was that the very high temperature produced by flash expands the air to such an extent that in effect a shockwave is formed. the mixture itself does not have a shockwave travelling though it, only a flame front. take for example that experimental laser powered rocket. a laser is shot into its underside where air is heated to such a high temperature it 'explodes'. this often results in the rocket shattering to bits. now is air a detonating explosive?
no.
if the flash however heated the air to such a temperature that it did 'explode' this sudden expansion and shockwave formed from the pressure difference would set off an HE. the flash heats the local air (air inbetween the particles of powder) to a great extent. high temperature air = expansion. if the air is heated incredibly fast such as in the rapid combustion of flash it will expand incredibly fast also = shockwave.
i've tried to stay out of this but i'm sick of chris's bullshit arguments which are full of flaws. yes flash does detonate but not when set off with a fuse as i and many others have said. smokeless powder (nitrocellulose) when ignited NEVER makes the deflagration to detonation transition otherwise there would be many people with pieces of gun barrel inside them. if however set off with a primary i beleive it detonates at around 6000m/s. as i've also said before, fuel/energetic oxidiser make a detonable mix, such as potassium chlorate and vaseline why should it be any different for aluminium and potassium chlorate? Al being a much more sensitive fuel would mean it would make a much more sensitive explosive as KClO3 and vaseline can be a bitch to detonate.
now chris, get some sort of evidence or atleast, as i have done, give credible reasons as to why you beleive what you do.

[PYRO500]

I will try to clear things up here. Firstly webster's dictionary (world renoun for being standard) describes detonation as
An explosion or sudden report made by the instantaneous decomposition or combustion of unstable substances' as, the detonation of gun cotton. Now we all know that an explosive substance cannot instantaneously decompose, now the part that confuses me is the combustion part the standard def. for deflagration is To burn or cause to burn with great heat and intense light, flash powder burns with great heat and great light as does BP but something say TCAP may not, I assume when you burn TCAP the energy is great enough to break the bonds of the molecuele causing energy and a sustaining reaction, with flash and BP they just burn so maybee it is easyer to look at the situation as "Is it a low explosive?" than "is it a high explosive" or "does it detonate" I think some things like NC fall in the catagory of both, LE and HE so it may be a HE but it doesn't mean it has to detonate, in witch case you would have to make a judgement call and call it a high or low explosive determining on it's application.

[10fingers]

Theres been several interesting tests proposed to settle this question once and for all but I think some of you guys are too busy jerking off thinking about Pamela Anderson to do the tests.
I agree she's definitely fuckable but we should not let her stand in the way of scientific pursuit.

[nbk2000]

Obviously, there's nothing being gained by this arguing since no one here has the equipment to prove for sure, one way or the other, if flashpowder (of unspecified composition) is capable of high order detonation.

Also, chris, don't presume that I'm agreeing with you about anything. I never said anything like that. I just stated some effects that I've observed first hand.

About the flash salutes shattering concrete stepping stones, that could be simply due to the confinment of the casing, similar to a pipe bomb (sans fragments).

Someone with a large quantity of flash should stick it in a plastic bag (no confinement or frags to confuse results), and shock it with a boosted detonator. If it shatters concrete, or bends steel, than I'd call it a detonation.

So until someone is ready to post pictures of said test results, this topic is closed.