Karachi Bomb

[Arkangel]

These "EOD" guys got paid about $1500 for putting their necks on the line here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3515562.stm) - how touching.

Anyway, I was intrigued by:Police say the bomb was a crude device, which included sulphuric acid, ammonium nitrate and hydrogen peroxide

It would be interesting to know if it would have gone off at all......

[nbk2000]

The fact that they listed three ingredients doesn't exclude the presence of others, and doesn't mean that the chemicals are "as-is" in the bomb. Peroxide and acid are 2/3 of AP.

[Arkangel]

I agree, (and they are also 2/3 of HMTD etc) but it was "a liquid explosive" and there was a washing machine full of it. From their description, it didn't sound an altogether credible device.

I'm very interested in how these weapons are slung together, and where they get their ideas from. I'm also interested in the proportion of actual "terrorist" ied's that are high or low order.

E.g. The nail bomber in London a few years ago used home-made black powder, the indonesian hotel bombers last year used something that included Potassium Chlorate. In Iraq, I'd be surprised if it wasn't 95% HE - 105mm shells etc, although they could use AN or something similar for the real biggies. I know that some attacks have included ex-Iraqi Navy torpedoes as part of the charge.

The difficulty with the "war on terror" is that the home-grown terrorists are entwined in society, yet don't have free and easy access to HE's or proper weapons. They DO, however, have all sorts of access to stuff we talk about here, and I'm curious if there's a trend in the use of this kind of device.

[Cyclo_Knight]

Yeah right! I highly doubt that very many (arab) terrorists ever go to this site. Its tough to hide phone lines going to your cave...HA!

but seriously...most substances synthed on this site require a decent knowledge of what you're doing, a firm grasp of English, and lab equipment. However, assuming they are able to obain all this, they STILL need access to chemicals which are only obtainable in advanced, wealthy countries(barring sulfuric and AN of course).

[Arkangel]

most substances synthed on this site require a decent knowledge of what you're doing, a firm grasp of English, and lab equipment

It sounds like you're underestimating the type of people the west is up against. If they can sieze and fly four airliners into buildings, what makes you think they can't manage English...

Also, there is plenty of stuff on here that would be capable of killing, that could and almost certainly IS made in an average kitchen - it doesn't take a criminal genius.

Anyway, that's pretty much off topic. What do you base this statement on?chemicals which are only obtainable in advanced, wealthy countries experience or speculation?

Some people have specialised in making weapons from easily available items in the Palestinian areas - what about the Quassam2 rockets? Made from steel, propelled by Saltpetre and sugar and an AP warhead . I'm simply curious:

a. if anyone has ideas on what the device may have been in Karachi, and:
b. anyone's thoughts or experience on the variety of ied's used around the world

[T_Pyro]

Its tough to hide phone lines going to your cave...HA!


Well, caves need not neccesarily be from the dark ages, you know! There are such things as CDMA and GPRS, believe it or not!

Whatever the ultimate source of such explosives is, I really doubt whether they were made by the terrorists themselves. Most likely obtained from some other third party. Given the strict regualation on the sale of all "dangerous" chemicals by the Government, acquiring the precursors required to make any HE would involve some reasonable understanding of chemistry, or at least a resource which lists all the steps involved in a simple manner. The former requirement means that the person would be at least smart enough to be able to get a regular job. The latter requirement means that with the resources at hand, the person would be able to do so many other things with his life raher than terrorise others. Either way, it seems to be contradictory to what a terrorist is.

The news report doesn't give much information about the "device". If the AN present was to be detonated, what would be used to detonate it? Is it correct to think of the other substances (sulphuric acid, unknown concentration, peroxide, again unkown concentration) as 2/3 of anything? For example, IF acetone was also present, and the acid was dilute, AP might have formed, but how could the AP in this impure, crude form be used to detonate the AN?

As an aside: Cyclo_Knight, is your name a play on "Cyclonite", or are you one and the same person?

[Dave Angel]

My guess would be the media getting the wrong end of the stick and propagating chinese whispers.

For example, they hear it was a ANFO type slurry and this becomes liquid explosive when recounted.

They hear AP was used, and that this can be made from simple materials including hydrogen peroxide and sulphuric acid. It is these two chemicals which are jotted hastily down on their note pads and later listed as the contents of the bomb.

I've seen science correspondents talk nonsense about scientific topics before, so I wouldn't trust any of these field journalists to know the first thing about explosives.

Perhaps the media needs explosives correspondents in this day and age?

[Arkangel]

No, you're absolutely right. I'm just very curious what it actually was.

To illustrate my curiosity about the spectrum of IED's that appear in the world, here's (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/3520240.stm) a particularly LAME example.

What a dumbass :rolleyes:

[Corona]

Since I'm from Karachi, I'd like to make a comment or two...

Cops here are known as "khanzeer" (pigs). If they got $1500, thats like a miracle. I wouldn't give them a sack of fresh manure.....LOL.

Anyway... the cost of living is very low in Pakistan and India. A dollar goes a long long way.

Not only did they get rewarded with money, they also got to eat a chocolate cake (picture in newpapers) specially made for them. Now thats touching, LOL.

As for the bomb... from what I could see on the news, it was a regular fiberglass water tank. They say that if it had gone off, it would've leveled a building or two. They've got the people on security cameras.. they'll get them.

As for having chemicals available here... they can be had easily, over the counter, in whatever concentration you like... full strength nitric acid for example. They might ask you a question or two, and you're going to say its for my kid... and nobody will bother you after that. There are no checks.

Their knowledge about bomb making isn't from the internet... From time to time, when the cops bust up some of these people, the material they get their hands on, doesn't look at all like it came from the internet. And they've been making such stuff since before the internet.

And you're right... the Press is the last place I would trust for any details about how the bomb was made. Unfortunately, I don't know any chemistry either. I'm a total duffer at the subject.

[nbk2000]

If he had used light metal bottles, the gas would have boiled and ruptured them, resulting in a bleve, and instant incineration of his whorish wife.

I think we'd be eminently qualified to correct the media's "bomb" errors, but that'd only make us a target of their hysteria.

[Corona]

Damn, you guys are smart... :-)

This just in... You'll get a laugh out of it.
------------------------------------------
Booby trap van turns out to be a hoax
By Our Staff Reporter

KARACHI, March 17: The liquefied chemical, found in the fibreglass tank, placed in the abandoned vehicle near the US consulate, was neither inflammable nor explosive, Dawn learnt here on Wednesday.

Well-placed sources said that a joint team of the Navy's and police's bomb disposal squad besides high ranking police officials carried out the exercise thrice by adopting different methods to explode chemicals between Do Darya and the Seaview beach.

Sources said that the chemicals could not explode nor could they catch fire. After the exercise, the joint team concluded that the liquefied chemicals were neither explosive nor incendiary.

A senior investigating official said: "We are perplexed as to why the chemicals were connected to two detonators and why the suspects took a high risk when these chemicals are non-explosive and this is a big question mark."
-------------------------------------

[T_Pyro]

Comedians! Everybody's a comedian! Looks like someone took the anti-forum "Phorum" too seriously. Then again, if it takes the "highly trained" bomb squad so long to figure out the difference between a detergent solution and an explosive, what hope can we have in their ability to protect the weak and the innocent? :rolleyes:

I think apart from the politicians so full of hot air, our worst enemies are such people of the press who act as weapons of mass misinformation. It's pathetic, the way they'll report an incident using "impressive techno-jargon" as "high explosives" just to get a good story, not knowing at all what they're talking about. It's equally frustrating to realise that the general population isn't even willing to listen to reason, labeling all those who speak of explosives as "terrorists". :mad:

[Corona]

I suspect they knew pretty soon it was dud, which is why they immediatly towed the Suzuki to an empty parking lot and examined it there. If it had been really serious, they could've closed the road off and not moved the van. The surrounding buildings had already been evacuated.

The real problem is that nobody... specially the cops and rangers... talks to the media. So the media gets everything late.. or they make up their own stories.

[Cyclo_Knight]

Yeah...i remember alocal news story where a kid blew off his fingers while screwing around with fireworks. Apparently the kid had taped about 6 small firecrackers together and dipped them in gasoline. Obviousy the thing went off as soon as he lit it...but the funny thing was how the paper reported it.

the headline read: "boy disfigured by home-made bomb".
it went on to say how the kid had bunches of explosive materials in his room...they were fireworks! It said how the kid was being investigated like a criminal for maybe trying to blow up his school (it was 1 year post-columbine)!
They obviously found no plans for an attack, so the had to let him off, but the school expelled him anyways for being a danger!
Now the poor kids got a stump for a hand and works at Arbys...and he's 21.

[Arkangel]

I wonder if they still got their 50,000 Rupees!

[Corona]

I think they get to keep their 50,000 Rupees and their chocolate cake, LOL.

The cops, the media, and idiot pranksters, all got together and probably thought: "hey, if Amreeka can have color coded terror alerts, why don't we do it better and really scare the crap out of our citizens?"

Well, guess what. I'm impressed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3524602.stm

[Harpoon]

A possible attempted bombing has appeared in the UK with 8 people being arrested over suspicion of being involved in terrorist activity. There's an article on it here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/3581687.stm).
Maybe events like this explain why I cannot find a single AN cold pack over here :(
Although I have managed to find a decent supplier of Al powder for stars :)

There's an article in New Scientist magazine about making ammonium nitrate harder to detonate.


Making bomb-building harder for terrorists

Vigilance and intelligence will always be the best weapons against terrorism. But it may be possible to make it harder for terrorists to turn one readily available chemical into bombs.

Ammonium nitrate, a widely used fertiliser, has been used in several IRA attacks, the World Trade Center bombing in New York in 1993, the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 and the Bali bombing in 2002. The massive bomb found outside the US embassy in Karachi, Pakistan, on Monday also contained the chemical, according to some reports.

Millions of tonnes of ammonium nitrate are produced each year for use as a fertiliser. Mining companies turn small quantities into an explosive by mixing the chemical with fuel oil. While it is not necessary for would-be bombers to do this with fertiliser-grade ammonium nitrate, it is not impossible.

New Speciality Fertiliser Products, a company based in Belton, Missouri, is patenting a water-soluble polymer coating for the fertiliser granules that repels fuel oil. The coating dissolves rapidly in soil, so it would not interfere with ammonium nitrate's main function as fertiliser. If it works and is widely adopted, the treatment could make it harder for terrorists to turn fertiliser grade ammonium nitrate into bombs, and could help prevent industrial accidents.

“We have done infiltration tests that show that the oil does no get into the ammonium nitrate,” says company founder Larry Sanders. That should at least reduce the force of any explosion that did occur. He is now sending the product to labs for tests. The cost of the coating would depend on how widely manufacturers adopt the technology, Sanders says.

Not everyone is convinced, however. One expert, who asked not to be named, said that the polymer might react with ammonium nitrate under the high temperatures and intense pressure that follow initial detonation, perhaps even providing additional energy for the reaction. But other groups are also working on ways of making ammonium nitrate less explosive. “There’s a lot of research going on,” says Jimmy Oxley, an explosives expert at the University of Rhode Island in Kingston. “It is way too sensitive to talk about.”

Most countries, including the US and Australia, do not regulate the sale of fertiliser-grade ammonium nitrate, but in the European Union it is already tightly restricted. “We are aware of all the sensitivities,” says David Heather of the Agricultural Industries Confederation in Peterborough, UK. Anything sold as fertiliser must pass a detonation resistance test that determines how well the product resists an explosion. In the EU, fertiliser-grade ammonium nitrate is actually manufactured to highly standards than the explosive grade, with large dense granules to prevent them absorbing fuel oil. Stabilisers are sometimes added to prevent the granules breaking down.

Another approach is to mark fertilisers so that any bomb can at least be tracked back to its source. Authentix of Dallas, Texas, says it can chemically tag any fertiliser during manufacturing. In the case of ammonium nitrate, molecules that contain different isotopes of nitrogen and hydrogen can be added in concentrations of parts per billion. “We can pick up traces of that marker in the explosive up to five kilometres away after an explosion,” says Ian Eastwood at Authentix’s UK office.

Microtrace of Minneapolis, Minnesota, makes microscopic barcodes that can be added to fertiliser. These barcodes can survive explosions and can uniquely identify up to 37 million products. However, while such technologies have long been available, they have yet to be widely adopted by fertiliser manufacturers.

If a fertiliser is coated with such a polymer, wouldn't passing it through a coffee grinder be a suitable way to remove the coating? When mixed with oil or diesel for ANFO, the coating would clump together, like fat droplets do in water. These clumps could then be removed. The only problem I can see with this idea is removing the clumps of coating. Also, an industrial sized coffee grinder may be required depending on the level of ANFO production.

This is a bit OT, but last night, there was an article about mobile phones on the BBC news. It stated that the Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ) could use mobile phones to track people even if the phone was switched off; remotely listen through mobile phones; as well as tapping and logging mobile phone calls. With camera and video phones phones on the market, I wonder if there is something that has been deliberately missed out.
Strangely, I couldn't find any mention of this report on the web today :confused: