Primary Explosives a very important inquiry!

[2,4,6-TNP]

Dear Forum Members,

It has come to my attention the need to post a thread that should result once and for all for this community the actual value of each primary explosive being established on the basis of experiance and not based on heresay or what someone else has said or read, but practical knowledge based on what has been acheived by the experiance of trial and error.

The reason I have decided to write this post is I want every member here to have access to a list of primary explosives and the minimum amount needed to detonate a high explosive that it is directly contacting.

For example Lead picrate's value as a primary explosive has been in question in this forum. The question of truth as to if it is capable of detonating directly a high explosive such as TNT, PETN, RDX ect. My own experiments have been inconclusive. My only reason for believing at all that it could detonate a high explosive is because the educated man Jared B. Ledgard, A.A.S, B.S., M.A. of Seattle, Washington U.S.A has stated in his Preparatory manual of explosives and I quote:

The following compound is used in place of lead styphnate, lead azide, mercury fulminate, or diazodinitrophenol in their respective places in the standard blasting cap as indicated under explosive munitions of RDX. To prepare: Simply mix 160 grams of freshly prepared wet basic lead picrate with 20 grams of potassium chlorate, and 20 grams lead tetraoxide. Thoroughly blend the mixture in a porcelain dish to form a well defined, thoroughly mixed composition. The well-blended mixture will have a distinctive red color; vide supra lead tetraoxide. Afterwards, pack the mixture into a steel tube that is the exact diameter of the desired blasting cap, and only 1/5th the total length thereof ( the idea here is to form a pellet of this initiating mixture, so the pellet can be placed on top of the blasting caps main charge; RDX. This eliminates the need to "press" this initiating composition into the blasting cap), and then cure for several days at room temperature. Then, remove the "pellet" and simply slide it into your desired blasting cap. end quote!

Now, I'm not one to question the validity of a man's words who has more degrees and education than I ever will, but experiance is greater to us than all the books in the world.

So then let's discuss this. There are alot of primary explosives mentioned in this forum, but I say we should in this thread seperate the wheat from the chaff! The only primary explosives with a historical military or agricultural use in blasting caps that I know about is mercury fulminate, about two grams of it was pressed into a copper tube by Alfred Nobel and a fuse was inserted and it was then sealed tightly. This cap was used to detonate nitroglycerine based dynamites in the late 1800's. The military of the United States currently uses a blasting cap that is made of an aluminum tube 2.35 inches long and 0.241 inches in diameter with about half of it filled with compacted RDX on top of this is a small amount of lead azide and on top of this is a priming mixture of lead styphnate and barium chromate. Note the lead azide is desensitized by a small amount of dextrose.

There is no point in discussing primary explosives that are just a novelty and have no ability to detonate anything.

Here is my list of Primaries that should be strongly considered here:

Lead azide; plumbous azide; lead-II-azide
Molecular weight:291.242
Detonating Velocity:5000 (+or- 15) Meters a second
Sensitivity: easily detonated by heat and shock
Stability: moderate
Flammability: explodes when heated to 350 Celsius
Solubility: insoluble in water, but soluble in acetic acid

Mercury fulminate
Molecular weight: 284.624
Detonating Velocity: 3920 Meters a second
Sensitivity: easily detonated
Stability: low
Flammibility: Explodes upon shock, heating, and friction

Tetraazide. Isocyanogen tetraazide
Molecular weight: 220.12
Detonating Velocity: not calculated
Sensitivity: detonates rather easily
Stability: moderate
Flammability: Explodes when ignited also sensitive to shock and friction

Diazodinitrophenol. 4,6,-Dinitro-2-diazophenol
Molecular weight: 210.104
Detonating Velocity: Uncalculated
Sensitivity: Easily detonates
Stability: good
Flammability: flashes when ignited also on friction or shock
Solubility: slightly soluble in water

CDNTA. 3,5-Dinitro-1,2,4-triazole-copper salt
Molecular weight: 379.656
Detonating velocity: uncalculated
Sensitivity: above moderate
Stability: moderate
Flammability: Detonates when ignited

SATP. di-Silver aminotetrazole perchlorate
Molecular weight: 520.134
Detonating velocity: uncalculated
Sensitivity: moderate
Stability: moderate
Flammability: detonates when ignited

CNTA. Copper salt of 5-nitrotetrazole
Molecular weight: 465.731
Detonating Velocity: 6500 Meters a second
Sensitivity: High
Stability: Low
Flammability: Detonates when ignited or on percussion, heat, and friction

HGNTA. Mercury nitroterazole
Molecular weight: 428.678
Detonating Velocity: 6300 Meters a second
Sensitivity:High
Stability: Low
Flammability: detonated when ignited. sensitivity similar to mercury fulminate.

LNTA. Lead nitrotetrazole, basic salt
Molecular weight: 676.502
Detonating Velocity: 6500 Meters a second
Sensitivity: High
Stability: Low
Flammability: Detonates when ignited or on shock and friction

Lead-TNP. Trinitrophloroglucinol lead salt
Molecular weight: 1065.69
Detonating Velocity: uncalculated
Sensitivity: High
Stability: Moderate
Flammability: Explodes when ignited

Lead Styphnate. 2,4,6-trinitro-lead-II-resorcinate
Molecular weight: 691.501 and 450.287 depending on the form yellow, red
Detonating Velocity: 7300 to 7600 meters a second again depending on form
Sensitivity: high
stability: moderate
Flammability: explodes when heated to 260 Celsius and on shock, friction

Lead Picrate. 2,4,6-trinitro-lead-phenolate basic
Molecular weight: 452.303
Detonating Velocity: 6500 Meters a second
Sensitivity: high
Stability: moderate
Flammability: explodes when ignited or on shock and friction

Silver Nitroform
Molecular weight: 257.89
Detonating Velocity: similar to mercury fulminate
Sensitivity: high
Stability: moderate
Flammability: detonates when ignited or upon percussion and friction

Acetone Peroxide. 3,3,6,6,9,9-hexamethyl-1,2,4,5,7,8-hexoxonane
Molecular weight: 222.236
detonating Velocity: 5250 Meters a second
Sensitivity: high
Stability: low
Flammability: Detonates when ignited or upon percussion and friction

Tetracene. Tetrazene; (2E)-3-[imino(3-oxotriazanyl)methyl]triaz-2-ene-1-carboximidamide
Molecular weight: 173.137
Detonating Velocity: 4000 Meters a second
Sensitivity: low
Stability: good
Flammability: flashes when ignited

These fifteen primary explosives all seem to be capable of detonating secondary explosives and boosters.

Please reply all of you with successful stories of detonating a secondary explosive, what the secondary explosive was and in what amount and form ig. cast, powdered, granulated, wet, dry, and the primary explosive used to detonate it and in what amount and how was it placed in relation to the main charge.

I'm just posting this cause i'm tired of bogus bullshit that is just some vain novelty that doesn't do a damn thing for us!

Bring the good shit or don't bring anything at all.

[2,4,6-TNP]

Also I would like to note that in starting this thread I mentioned that 2 grams of a mixture of mercury fulminate and 20% by weight potassium chlorate reliably detonates nitroglycerine and nitroglycerine based dynamites doesn't say much as nitroglycerine can be detonated in a metal container by placing a vial in it of blackpowder fixed with a fuse and sealed with a cork. It is obvious that the militaries of this world have found lead azide placed on RDX and ignited by a mixture of lead styphnate and barium chromate as the most reliable blasting cap for general use in existence. It is also well documented that Palistinian terrorists have used Acetone peroxide with great effect to initiate explosives such as PETN, RDX, ANAP and dynamites.

So to me it is beyond reprouch that at least these three primary explosives are to be considered reliable initiaters of death and destruction.

[Hang-Man]

It has come to my attention the need to post a thread that should result once and for all for this community the actual value of each primary explosive being established on the basis of experiance and not based on heresay or what someone else has said or read, but practical knowledge based on what has been acheived by the experiance of trial and error.

What the fuck kind of sentence is that? after reading and rereading your poorly written and poorly translated post, I got this out of it:
You want us to separate the primaries that work and those that are just a "vain novelty"

but I say we should in this thread seperate the wheat from the chaff!

I concur. NBK? Care to separate some chaff?

[2,4,6-TNP]

I want the Primary explosives that work seperated from the ones that don't!

[Rosco Bodine]

You have some bad data and some wrong ideas about firing trains .

The velocity figures for lead picrate , basic lead picrate ,
and lead styphnate are way too high . Those figures
would not be attainable in a detonator , unless perhaps
those primaries were overdriven by a cover charge of
lead azide , perhaps along with some PETN .

As for which primaries "work" , well to the extent of their
usefulness , they all work for their particular purpose ,
but certainly not all primary explosives are efficient at the task
of shock initiating secondary high explosives . A particular
primary which is efficient at detonating a particular secondary
may not be a good choice for detonating a different secondary .

The combination used for a particular firing train is a carefully
tested and engineered "system" .

There are incorrect figures published in the technical literature
where the data is only as credible as the competence and
honesty of the source . Experiments will bear that out .

Love your picrate caps do you ? In a patent reference somewhere
I read that the basic lead picrate can function as an equivalent
substitute for mercury fulminate in a blasting cap , *if* the
material is wetted with nitroglycerine and fired while strongly
confined . If the basic lead picrate had sufficient energy ,
then why would the nitro be needed ? Perhaps the patent
reference was incorrect ? But then why does that information
square with my own experiments and observations ......
which contradict your claim of a positive "experience" with
a detonating explosive which in the report you made
was a compound not even accurately identified .

[2,4,6-TNP]

What can be said?

All the knowledge we have obtained about explosives is not of us, but has been handed down to us from those who have gone before us.

If we were born 500 years ago I don't think we'd have much to talk about.

Yet all the information we have we have recieved through the literature and through what has been heard. Still, it is evident in the many contradictions and arguments that not all the information is to be thought correct. I have found myself the fisherman trying to catch the fish of truth in a sea of lies.

It seems the only thing we can do is take the information at face value and consider the source; if it is military or of a private origin as it is obvious many endless tons of explosives have been successfully used by the military and less so by private citizens. Then we try to make the knowledge we think to be reputable work for us to bring about a desired effect and when we fail then we question or sources!

This information I have written down is simply literary and how can a private citizen ever verify all the information? It would take 200 years, for that is how long it has taken mankind to discover it all.

Or perhaps you Rosco Bodine consult with the Almighty so you can never be in error!

[Rosco Bodine]

When you have good data from your own experiments ,
it is better data than any information you may have read
but never confirmed was accurate . It is more than a subtle
distinction between what you know for certain from direct observation
and what you believe on faith is true from something you read ,
like the difference in evidence from an eyewitness and hearsay
and rumor . You don't have to be listening to voices in the sky
to tell you the difference between what you know for damn sure ,
and what you speculate or suppose , you just have to be honest
about where you get your "knowledge" and how you know that
knowledge has validity . Explosives chemistry should be as matter
of fact as any other heavy industrial process science , like metallurgy
for example , but because of the "excitement" of pyromania and
the obscurity of good data from those with direct experience ,
the science gets "glamorized" with a lot of nonsense perpetuated
by those with little knowledge from direct experiments using a
no bullshit methodical scientific approach and method .

If your results were "inconclusive" , then why did you give a glowing
report of your "picrate caps" in the other thread ?

Maybe I misunderstood your meaning in the word "inconclusive" ,
but in my own experience with detonator sized charges , the
evidence of high order detonation upon witness plates and the
ability of a detonator to reliably detonate a main charge is a
matter where there is no uncertainty , it either does the job
right or it does not .

The source of patents or other literature being military doesn't
assure credibility for the data . The publications of munitions
manufacturers and professional journals is generally reliable .
But there should be a healthy cynicism and reserve about
information from literary sources . I recently had an experience
with a British patent for azides which would appear to be
legitimate , and from a military source , but the information
did not withstand scrutiny under experiments . Another one
for the "cold fusion" files .

[2,4,6-TNP]

Thank you for your gentle reply sir!

I think from here I will take things one piece and one step at a time.
I found very interesting the thread on obtaining sodium azide from
auto airbags and I will investigate the matter.

It seems like where there is a will there is a way!

It's interesting to me how so many explosive precursers have found common use in our communities.

I think instead of trying to discern the value of every primary explosive to me
I should just start by investigating one very thoroughly. Lead Azide is as good a start as any.

Well that will do!

P.S. Perhaps I can use that "worthless" basic lead picrate to initiate lead azide placed on top of picric acid.
P.P.S. I long for the experiance to answer my own questions!

[Rosco Bodine]

That basic lead picrate is absolutely valuable as an easily ignitable
"first fire" composition in a firing train . It is anhydrous , non-corrosive
to bridgewires , and very quickly makes the DDT to low order detonation ,
something like a very fast "flash powder" . It is very close but not
quite as good as lead styphnate , but is much easier and cheaper to make
and serves just as well for most purposes where lead styphnate would
be used as a "primer" or DDT flash igniter , as a match composition ,
or top charge in a firing train . If you are using the little christmas tree
bulbs as an electrical squib , then filling the small bulb with microcrystalline
basic lead picrate gives excellent results .

It was the plain lead picrate which I regarded as "useless" since it is
more difficult to make and has worse performance than the basic salt .

If you want to see an interesting evolution for your basic lead picrate ,
then add an extra tenth gram of NaOH at the beginning of the synthesis ,
and proceed with the modified method I described earlier for improving
the yield to quantitative .

While the mixture is stirring , prepare separately a mixed solution
of 16 grams lead nitrate , and 5.4 grams of potassium chlorate in 200 ml H20 .

After the basic lead picrate has formed as usual , continue the stirring and
heating , and refill the addition funnel with the mixed solution of lead nitrate
and potassium chlorate , and add it slowly by drops following the same method
as before . The color of the dark orange red basic lead picrate
will gradually lighten to a bright yellow , gradually darkening to a more
"mustard yellow" color as the clathrate complex forms . The material
resulting will be a triple salt , which is also a clathrate , and the
compound will be basic lead picrate / lead nitrate / lead chlorate .
The yield should be about 29 grams .

Compare the properties of this material with the basic lead picrate ,
and the power of the 29 grams to the 18 grams of the parent substrate ,
which are both derived from the same amount of picric acid .

Neither one are unequivocal primary explosives , but the clathrate
will be a "hotter" compound , more sensitive and more energetic .
And as a bonus , when made into a putty with acetone/nitrocellulose ,
and allowed to harden , it will form a very easily initiated secondary
high explosive which will high order detonate with no confinement ,
if initiated by a small quantity of lead azide , or a blob of azo-clathrate
deposited onto its surface and allowed to dry . 50 milligrams or so
of 4/12 azo-clathrate will set of a ping pong ball sized chunk of the
hardened putty , with no confinement whatsoever , and the resulting
detonation is absolutely high order and way higher energy than
something like AP putty .

If only flame intitated , the putty will only low order detonate .

Many interesting conclusions may be drawn from such an experiment .

[2,4,6-TNP]

I'm wondering about the compatibility of lead azide and picric acid in contact with eachother in a blasting cap. I have read that lead azide is best used in aluminum tubing 1/4 inch or slightly larger. My real desire for investigating these primary explosives is to come up with a firing scheme to use in blasting caps that can be safely stored for up to five years and be stable even with a little rough handling and can be succesfully and reliably fired with a visco fuse.

Do you know the appropriate amount of dextrose per gram of lead azide to desensitize it to meet the above criteria without loosing reliability. Is there a certain method of mixing the two? Wet or Dry?

Also do you think the lead azide would react with the basic lead picrate over time!

Thanks for your info!

[Rosco Bodine]

A compressed pellet of Lead Azide is compatable
in contact with compressed dry Picric Acid ,
for long term in a hermetically sealed cap ,
and is comptatable wet or dry with Basic Lead Picrate .

Compressed lead azide is insensitive to the spit of a fuse ,
so either a small amount of loose lead azide must be
present to catch the fire from the fuse and commute
the detonation to the compressed pellet of lead azide
beneath , or an igniter charge like Basic Lead Picrate
must be used as a "first fire" in the firing train .

Lactose would be a preferred sugar if a sugar was to
be used as an adulterant in pyrotechnic compositions
since it is not hygroscopic . But there are probably
better things to use for pressure flowable binders ,
such as gum arabic , or perhaps even paraffin .
Generally such adulterants are coprecipitated as
deliberately added impurities in the solution from
which the initiator crystallizes , so the crystals are
covered with the adulterant as they are formed .
Alternately , the adulterant is provided in a second
solution and used as a "wash" for the cystals which
are suspended and agitated with the adulterant as
a separate process . PVA , ( PolyVinylAlcohol )
is one of the more recent crystal modifiers / adulterants
which has found usefulness with lead azide . Methyl Cellulose
is another one . Both were deemed improvements over
dextrine .

4/12 azo-clathrate is a better choice for picric acid
used in a detonator intended to have long term stability ,
for many years of shelf life in adverse storage conditions .
Is one hundred years of outdoor storage stability adequate ?
That is probably a conservative shelf life expectation for
a cap in which the base charge is picric acid and the other
components of the firing train are stable derivatives of the
same picric acid with which they are in contact . Chemical
compatability is assured by such an arrangement .

Aluminum is a good detonator shell material , but not essential .
If you upgrade from lead azide to 4/12 azo-clathrate , then
you have no worries about compatability of the detonator shell
material with lead azide , and no worries about hermetically
sealing the detonator either . Depending upon the size of
the base charge to be used , column diameters from 6 mm to 9 mm
will result in detonators having sufficient output to detonate
any secondary explosive sensitive to a detonator . For the
relatively insensitive explosives like urea nitrate , good results
are assured by a large cap , overkill being the idea to make sure
it gets the job done . A column diameter of 9 mm and a base charge
of two and one half grams of picric acid gives one hundred per cent
reliability for urea nitrate . Such an "engineers special" detonating
cap will be more useful for more purposes than the usual commercial
number eight caps which are inadequate for insensitive explosives .

Don't rely on literature references for the sensitivity of picric acid
( or other explosives ) to very tiny amounts of initiating explosives ,
as most of those tests report "best case scenarios" where very
strong confinement , reenforcing caps , and other conditions are
optimized for sensitivity . In a real world detonator , you will
find it always takes much more of the lead azide or whatever other
initiator , to produce *reliable* results and highest output . The
idea is not to "tickle" the base charge with the "threshold minimum"
initiating charge , but rather to assertively "knock the shit out of it"
with a compelling impulse that will "rock it's molecular world" in a way
that assures detonation , and makes any misfire unlikely .

[2,4,6-TNP]

I very recently ordered an airbag.
It was for sale on the internet. In the thread -Sodium azide from air bags- it was discussed that these airbags contained an igniter surounded by small pellets that contains various mixtures of either/or sodium azide, potassium nitrate, iron oxide, and silicone dioxide. I would be interested if any of these mixtures could be useful as is or purified for the following lead azide sythesis taken from a manual of explosives.

It's as follows:

Lead Azide; plumbous azide; lead-II-azide Pb(N3)2

Lead azide forms needle like crystals, or a white powder. It begins to decompose when heated to 250 Celsius, and explodes at 350 Celsius. Lead azide is more stable then Mercury fulminate, and is an outstanding booster or transfer explosive found in blasting caps, detonaters, and fuses. The salt is insoluble in water, but soluble in acetic acid. Lead azide is a standard military initiating explosive (mixed with dextrose to desensitize it).
Molecular weight:291.242
Detonating velocity: 5000 (+ or - 15) meters a second
Sensitivity: easily detonated
Stability: moderate
Flammability: explodes when ignited
Toxicity: moderate
Classification: primary explosive
Overall Value (as a primary explosive): High

Materials:

21 grams lead-II-acetate
8.3 grams sodium azide

Summary: Lead azide is easily prepared by mixing solutions of lead-II-acetate, and sodium azide. After the two solutions are mixed, the precipitated lead azide is then collected by filtration.

Hazards: Wear gloves when handling lead-II-acetate, and sodium azide. Lead-II-acetate is a suspected carcinogen, and sodium azide is poisonous so handle with car.

Procedure: Prepare two solutions, a sodium azide solution, and a lead-II-acetate solution by dissolving 8.3 grams of sodium azide into 71 milliliters of water, and dissolve 21 grams of lead-II-acetate into 179 milliliters of water. Then quickly place each solution into a freezer and chill to about 5 Celsius. Thereafter, place the sodium azide into an ice bath, and then rapidly add the lead-II-acetate solution. Upon mixing, the lead azide will instantaneously precipitate. After mixing both solutions, carefully filter-off the precipitated product, carefully wash with 100-milliliters of ice-cold water, and then dry in a disiccater filled with anhydrous magnesium sulfate. Do not vacuum dry or air-dry. The dry product should never be kept dry. For storage, keep the dry Lead azide suspended in a water free solvent such as kerosene. The product can be stored wet with water for short periods of time.

I don't have any anhydrous magnesium sulfate, all I have is magnesium sulfate heptahydrate (epsom salt). I don't have a disiccater either and they sound very expensive.

I know that this synthesis recommends a "cold reaction", while in some posts I've read the writers say they have used a "warmer methed" even warming on purpose. Well what of it? Is it a good Method or should I direct my attentions elseware? Can the Sodium Azide for the reaction be obtained from this airbag? What do you think the yield should be from the airbag and what about the yield from the reaction?

[grendel23]

If you want to make lead azide, be aware that it is very advisable to add dextrin before the azide precipitates. Straight lead azide is almost never used due to excess sensitivity to friction and static.
When I extracted the NaN₃ from the airbag I used, I had 93 grams of pellets, which yielded 43 grams of NaN₃. Your airbag will probably be similar.
By the way I was able to find in about 2 minutes what I assume is the auction you are talking about, that would allow a LEO to find out who you are rather easily. You may want to edit out the type of airbag you bought.

[2,4,6-TNP]

Dextrinated during the synthesis you mean?

[Rosco Bodine]

Dextrinated lead azide has been around for a long time ,
and is made by using dextrine , which is a modified starch ,
*NOT* "Dextrose" which is a basic sugar and an isomer of glucose .
Frankly I never heard of dextrose being recommended as an
adulterant for lead azide , and it doesn't even begin to make sense
why a hygroscopic sugar would be a desirable adulterant for
a moist air sensitive material like lead azide . In fact the idea
of using dextrose with lead azide seems stupid .

I would be very skeptical and dubious about the quality of information
in a text which recommends dextrose . That could just be a typograhical
error , but it is the kind of glaring error that is conspicuous to
someone knowledgeable about the technology they are writing ,
and it is significant enough that it never should have gotten past a
proofreading to be published in a book about explosives , *IF*
that book was written by anyone who knew what they were talking about .

See it for the "red flag" it really is concerning the information in that book .

[2,4,6-TNP]

I believe the dextrose verses dextrine is probably a typo because there are several obvious errors in the text. The author probably didn't hire an editor.

So do you think there is a need to desensitize lead azide at all for blasting caps. Lead azide seems to be pretty stable when compacted and cradled between two other powders. Maybe the military just desensitizes it because like for hand grenades and other munitions that are thrown or otherwise treated harshly.

I wonder what the properties of a blasting cap would be just made from pure dry picric acid, pure dry lead azide, and pure dry Basic lead picrate. Would it be sensitive to dropping or static electricity?

[grendel23]

I could live with the friction sensitivity of straight lead azide, but the static sensitivity makes my palms sweat.Check out page 2 of the azo-clathrate patent, here (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=3431156.WKU.&OS=PN/3431156&RS=PN/3431156) the RD-1333 listed is very close to straight azide. This may not be an issue once it is in a cap, but you have to get it in the cap first.
For that matter, if you have NaN₃, you would be much better off making 4-12 azo-clathrate anyway, it beats the snot out of lead azide in almost every way.

[Rosco Bodine]

"I believe the dextrose verses dextrine is probably a typo
because there are several obvious errors in the text. The author probably didn't
hire an editor. "

Yeah , I can believe that . I have difficulty reading my own notes
and tend to be a terrible writer , especially when preoccupied with
an experiment in progress , watching a reaction with one eye while trying
to keep a log and do some reading to pass the time while other things are being done .


"So do you think there is a need to desensitize lead azide at all for blasting caps.
Lead azide seems to be pretty stable when compacted and cradled between two
other powders. Maybe the military just desensitizes it because like for hand grenades
and other munitions that are thrown or otherwise treated harshly."

The main issue for blasting caps is the safety of handling the bulk powders
by the loading equipment . I believe that careful control of the crystal size and type ,
and uniformity of the crystals is really the most important factor , and
the use of adulterants is not essential for small batches of material which
are made on a laboratory scale where very close control is possible .
The needle shaped crystals of lead azide are something which I have only
encountered when working with acetate containing solutions which tend
to dissolve the azide and stimulate the growth of larger crystals .
I have produced freeflowing lead azide crystals of microcrystalline size
large enough not to show static "squeaking" typical of dry powders like
cornstarch . If you are familiar with the effect where you get little clumps
from the slightly moist material as it dries , and the clumps actually make
an audible squeaking noise when broken under the pressure of a spoon ,
with the powder showing a lot of "static cling" to the spoon and everything
else in the vicinity . At a certain larger crystal size , the crystals lose that
undesirable "caking" tendency and the tiny moist clumps fall apart freely
as the material is drying , giving a static free , loose and freeflowing
microcrystalline powder . An experimental and unpublished method that
I have used succesfully is the addition of lead nitrate solution to a
sodium azide / sodium nitrate solution , the composition of the solutions
having been calculated so that the byproduct sodium nitrate concentration
in the reaction mixture from which lead azide is precipitating remains constant
during the reaction , and the resulting crystals of lead azide are of relatively uniform
microcrystalline size , freeflowing dense and loose yet small crystals which are
not needle shaped , but a more cubical granular form . This material
has not been yet tested to compression loading sensitivity , but looks to be
a fine enough granulation mesh that it would likely be okay under compression .
The decreased surface area for a given weight of the material should reduce the rate
of its deterioration by carbon dioxide of the atmosphere . For anyone wishing
to experiment with the method and the product , or to tinker with the concentrations
or times and temperatures , I will describe the experimental method .
9 grams of Sodium Azide and 6 grams of Sodium Nitrate are dissolved in 280 ml
distilled water , placed in a tall form 1 liter beaker on a hotplate beneath an
overhead stirrer with a propellor shaft extending to almost the bottom of the beaker .
23 grams of Lead Nitrate are dissolved in a separate 550 ml of distilled water
and placed into an addition funnel . The Sodium Azide / Sodium Nitrate
solution is heated to about 90 Centigrade and rapidly stirred continuously
as the Lead Nitrate solution is slowly added over the course of a half hour ,
and the stirring and heating continued for an additional half hour past the
end of the addition . The stirring is then discontinued , the supernatant
liquid decanted , and the residue swirled with 200 ml cool water , then
dumped onto a coffee filter and the residue rinsed onto the filter . The
filter is transferred to blotters to help speed drying . The yield is almost
the theoretical of freeflowing lead azide of granular microcrystalline form .
Proportional , smaller volume solutions and lower temperatures should result in
smaller crystals , and vice versa , for those who wish to change the
mesh size of the end product . This material is completely untested
so please do fully recognize and treat it as an experimental material .


"I wonder what the properties of a blasting cap would be just made from
pure dry picric acid, pure dry lead azide, and pure dry Basic lead picrate.
Would it be sensitive to dropping or static electricity?"

That particular firing train would give excellent results in long term storage
and in use , but you would need to protect the lead azide from the air .
All caps are going to be sensitive to impact and static electricity , it
being only a matter of degree . They are sensitive to heat also . But
all things considered , you could do a lot worse in choice of materials
for a detonator . That combination is a practical firing train . I would still
recommend that the 4/12 azo-clathrate is superior to straight lead azide .
Even if it required twice as much of the azo-clathrate to do the job , it
would be superior to straight lead azide in a detonator , since there is no
size constraint , and long term stability is the priority .

[Bert]

I would still
recommend that the 4/12 azo-clathrate is superior to straight lead azide.

A couple of questions: The procedure originally described by Mr. Anonymous would take in excess of 3 hours of continuous heating at 95*C. Clearly, a good deal of the distilled water would evaporate, necessitating some makeup water.- What volume should be maintained during the heated stirring?

Second, in practical use, what would be an optimum base charge and detonator shell material combination for a #8 equivalent, long term storable cap with this primary? Is the azo-clathrate known to be incompatible with brass & Copper shells for long term storage similar to free Lead azide?

[Rosco Bodine]

With regards to the makeup water , I do not recall having to add any .
The sodium nitrate by product in the solution tends to reduce the evaporation .
Typically when running a reaction of that sort there may be a little crusting
of solid materials at the interface of the surface and the walls of the beaker ,
dislodged from time to time with a little stream from a wash bottle which
is unaccounted for added water .
But a tall form beaker of the size described , in which a vortex makes
the contents rise up even higher , the maximum volume of the mixture
is pretty close to the top towards the end of the process . The volume
isn't critical . The whole process could be run at twice the dilutions
described , or at two thirds the dilutions of that example , and the only
effect would be to change the average size of the resulting crystals
of end product . More dilute solutions and higher temperatures favor
larger crystals , more concentrated solutions and lower temperatures
favor the smaller crystals .

With regards to the detonator shells , I have only used aluminum and
polypropylene . But the azo-clathrate is supposedly nonreactive in
contact with copper , brass and other metals so it is not subject to
the same limitations and concerns to the extent which is true for
lead azide . If a commercial detonator were to be contemplated ,
the material I would recommend for the casing is injection molded
clear PFA , flouropolymer , because of many advantages including the
ability to visually inspect the integrity of the contents , and inertness of the
shell to corrosive or reactive blasting compositions which would compare
to teflon .

A gram of picric acid in a 6 mm column would likely give an output on
par or better than a commercial #8 . PETN would be a superior base
charge . For use with improvised explosives though , given the labor
and time involved in making components , I would recommend making
detonators with much larger charges than commercial #8 , using
base charges of 1 to 1.75 grams of PETN or 1.5 to 2.5 grams of picric
acid in column diameters of 6 to 9 mm respectively , the larger charges
being more reliable for insensitive secondaries like urea nitrate .

[2,4,6-TNP]

Rosco Bodine,

You said in your post that you used a sodium nitrate/lead nitrate solution for the lead azide reaction. Do you see any reason why a potassium nitrate/ lead nitrate solution or potassium nitrate/ lead acetate solution can't be used as meet for the reactions requirements. If this is the case maybe these sodium azide/potassium nitrate pellets from airbags can be used in a similar way. At the time I have no way of confirming the actual percentages, but it seems I read that it's something like 60% Sodium azide/40% potassium nitrate. Maybe by simply crushing up these pellets they can be added in solution to a calculated amount of lead nitrate or lead acetate solution.

I'm still wondering about the optimum temperature of reaction. The Merck Manual states that lead azide's heat of formation is 25 Celsius. Does this mean the lead azide best forms at this temp. or is it just a minimum.

Also I think that I would love to get my hands on some of that material you were talking about for blasting cap housing. Thus far I have found that 9/32" aluminum tubing has worked well with mercury fulminate. It is obvius to me that it is probably one of the second best choices over the material you were talking about. It is very cheap, easy to crimp and fold, is resistent to oxidation, is pretty non-reactive with most materials, I think it's resistent to salt water, and doesn't react readily with any dry powdered acids like picric and boric acid, it's not as conductive as some metals, it's available at most hardware and hobby stores. I usually just take a pair of needle nosed pliers and crimp the tube 3" from the end and cut it with wire cutters behind the crimp and fold this small crimped section back over on itself with the pliers.
I can then fill the cap, and when I'm done I insert a visco fuse and then flatten the end of the tube till it securely holds the fuse but doesn't dissable it in any way, then I simply crimp the end of the tube on both sides of the fuse and it's ready to go! as far as I can tell on the crimped and folded end of this cap no water can get in because the tube is tightly pinched and folded back on itself. However for the fuse side, I am thinking maybe a dab of silicone around the fuse or squib would make this cap reasonably water impermeable without damaging the integrity of the fuse. Wich would make it OK for long term storage, but I would still store it in an airtight container to keep the exposed fuse in a dry and stable condition for reliable ignition. It is important to note that some glues will damage the fuses burn rate and reliability. Probably should avoid any water based glues and the less you use the better. I'm not sure if silicon is the best for this application cause I think it tends to shrink a bit which could be bad for the fuse. Maybe a product similar to silicone could be used, one that doesn't shrink.

Also, has anyone here come across B.T. Federoff, Encyclopedia of Explosives and related items? I think it comes in ten volumes. I'm just curious about it, because it is sited in the merck manual under Lead Azide. I assume any material sited in the merck manual must carry some authority, as the merck manual does. If you have seen it, what kind of information does the encyclopedia give about explosives? Detonation velocities, preparations, patents, chemical characteristics?

[Rosco Bodine]

The use of added sodium nitrate was because sodium nitrate is
a product of the reaction between lead nitrate and sodium azide .

2 (NaN3) + Pb(NO3)2 ------> 2 (NaNO3) + Pb(N3)2

In the simple reaction above , the by product sodium nitrate
increases in concentration in the solution from which the lead
azide is being precipitated , so in effect the compositon of the
solution is changing for each crystal of lead azide being formed .
That varying concentration results in varying sized crystals of
lead azide being precipitated as the reaction proceeds , with
larger crystals being precipitated first and then smaller crystals
being precipitated as the solvent property of the solution is
decreased as it becomes more loaded with sodium nitrate towards
the end of the reaction . The method I proposed was adding
some of the byproduct sodium nitrate at the beginning to cause
its concentration in the solution for the reaction to remain constant
throughout the reaction , which removes one variable contributing to
the formation of varying sized crystals of lead azide .

Thus in the "reaction zone" of the reacting solution ,
the concentration of sodium nitrate is maintained constant
at a little over two percent by design , by deliberately
formulating the reacting solutions to accomplish that aim .

[2,4,6-TNP]

Alright, it's clear the pellets containing potassium is not an advantage in this reaction. Well, I have over 50 Lbs of sodium nitrate, no problem. Just one thing how can I seperate Sodium azide from potassium nitrate? Water, organic solvents. Once it has been dissolved and filtered How can the sodium azide be recrystalized? Freezing, boiling? What do you think?

Again, I'm wondering about the proper temperature of reaction for lead azide.
Merck manual says: Heat of formation 25 Celsius.

[Rosco Bodine]

I am uncertain what that Merck reference is about .
Perhaps a particular crystal modification forms at that temperature .

Anyway , do you have a mistaken idea that lead azide
or other compounds only form at some specific temperature ?

Regarding the separation of sodium azide and potassium nitrate ,
There is no significant reason for separating the two . The potassium
nitrate impurity will not interfere with the reactions of the sodium azide .
Determine the percentage concentration which is sodium azide
and then calculate the amount of the mixed material you will need
to provide a desired amount of sodium azide to a reaction .

[2,4,6-TNP]

I am uncertain what that Merck reference is about .
Perhaps a particular crystal modification forms at that temperature.

Maybe they are referring to the most commonly used crystal modification used militarily.

Anyway , do you have a mistaken idea that lead azide
or other compounds only form at some specific temperature ?

No! But I understand that for every synthesis, There are certain conditions to be met, including temperature for yield, crystal modifications that effect stability and charcteristics of the product, and also the safety of the person performing the synthesis. Example: nitroglycerine.

Regarding the separation of sodium azide and potassium nitrate ,
There is no significant reason for separating the two . The potassium
nitrate impurity will not interfere with the reactions of the sodium azide .
Determine the percentage concentration which is sodium azide
and then calculate the amount of the mixed material you will need
to provide a desired amount of sodium azide to a reaction .

This is good news! I should like to ask, does more water need to be added to accomadate the potassium nitrate in the reaction mixture?

[me234]

I thought the purpose of this forum was to discuss ideas amoungst ourselves and to encourage experimenting? Why would you not want to know about "novelty" primaries with no importance as an initiator as you put it? They're half the fun! Just something to mess around with! That's why we're here man, to learn about as many things as possible!
Where once there
Even if half of them aren't really useable in detonators but only to fool around with. And why would you want to put definative information out in the open for everyone to see?
was nothing but
For k3wls who can't be bothered to go to a good library and look things up but don't mind going to www.google.com and lounging around at home while their computer does the work for them.
a single, giant
Yes by all means keep you own records containing as much info as possible for your own use and memory, so that you know what works for you, but don't let other people read it and steal your ideas or results, make them do some work.
monosentence, there
I'm sure many a kewl has been converted to a true experimenter by surfing this forum and getting into it, I know I get in a happy mood each time I come here.
are now paragraphs!
Please e-mail the info to each other when a few of you want to get together and figure some shit out, but be secretive, be paranoid dammit!
Correct you own grammer in the future, eh? NBK
Don't let kewls know that AP isn't the best primary out there, let them fuck with their lame shit, leave them be, leave them be ignorant while we sit quitely in the corner planning our next move.

[Rosco Bodine]

This is good news! I should like to ask, does more water
need to be added to accomadate the potassium nitrate in the reaction mixture?

Only if you were working with cold concentrated solutions where the
solubility of KNO3 would be impaired , would there be a problem with
the KNO3 being stubborn to dissolve . At ordinary temperatures ,
and even moreso at warm temperatures , the KNO3 is very soluble .

And of course the NaN3 is also extremely soluble , so not much water
will be required to keep both materials in solution together . For that
same reason the two materials would be difficult to separate by
crystallization , although it would be possible by careful experiments
to work out the details of some technique for such a fractional
crystallization if it was needed . The way it would work is to evaporate
the solution until a certain specific gravity is achieved for a certain temperature ,
and then chill the mixture and hold it at another certain
temperature for a time , and then filter out the precipitated KNO3 ,
repeating the process , and then evaporating the residual solution of
mostly NaN3 . Because the solubilities of both materials are high ,
it would be a very tedious process to work out an optimum method
for performing the isolation of the NaN3 . Indeed it is fortunate there
is no good reason for doing that extra work . Another thing which
may occur to complicate separation is that in solution , there is
going to also be formed some sodium nitrate and potassium azide ,
and that fact will probably result in a mixture which will defy any
efficient separation , because of the complexity of the mixture , it
will likely not follow whatever predictions or expectations for what
should be crystallizing out at any point . You will likely lose more
azide in the attempt to separate and isolate it as either the sodium
or potassium salt , than you will obtain from any attempted isolation .

You could simply keep the strong mixed solution as your "stock solution"
of "sodium azide" and determine its unknown concentration by making
a sample of lead azide , and doing the math . The solution should be stable
in storage , just be sure to label it as deadly poison , and handle it with
the same respect and caution as would be accorded sodium cyanide ,
because the toxicity and reactivity is roughly comparable . A few drops
of sodium hydroxide solution added to your stock solution to help it remain
basic would be a sensible "stabilizer" storage precaution .

[2,4,6-TNP]

Well Rosco,

I have become a little discouraged upon further examination of my airbag. I was able to gain access to the pellets safely by drilling through the 1/8" aluminum casing with a 1/2" drill bit. I shaked the casing furiuosly untill all the pellets fell into a ziplock bag. The reason I'm a little discouraged, besides the fact that I got some aluminum dust mixed in with the pellets, is the pellets are not what I expected to see. What I saw in my ziplock bag is pellets that are shaped like an aspirin tablet but smaller, they are shiny and look like they are made of graphite! This same graphite-leadish color is evident throughout the pellet when one is split in half. The label on the canister I took these from says:

Inflater contains flammable solids: Sodium Azide and Boron Potassium Nitrate. Contact with acid, water, and heavy metals, may produce harmful and irritating gases or explosive compounds.

I expected these tablets to be composed of potassium nitrate and sodium azide like we discussed. So, anyway, do you have any idea what element or compound is present along with my sodium azide tablets? I have heard it said in other threads in this forum that some airbags contain silicone dioxide, and/or iron oxide along with the sodium azide what do you make of this in light of the canisters labeling?

Well, I hope you can help and maybe you may have an idea about this!

Thanks

Have a blast!

[grendel23]

There are apparently at least 2 chemical systems in use in airbags.
One is NaN₃, KNO₃, and SiO₂ described here (http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~edudev/LabTutorials/Airbags/airbags.html).
The other one NaN₃ and Fe₂O₃ shown here (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99201.htm).
If your pellets are black, you should have the second type, I used an airbag out of the same make of vehicle as you and had NaN₃ and Fe₂O₃ pellets. The only water soluble component in those pellets should be NaN₃.
The boron and potassium nitrate are in the squib used to fire the airbag.

[Rosco Bodine]

What exactly is the composition of those propellant pellets is
something I don't know . There are many patents for various
azide containing mixtures and you could do some reading to
figure out what you probably have .

It would probably be a good starting point to do an experiment
by dropping one of the pellets into a very dilute ammonia solution
( perhaps one tenth of one per cent ammonia ) to test for any reaction .
Keeping the water basic with ammonia should avoid production
of any fumes of hydrazoic acid , which would not just ruin
your whole day , but make it your last one . One whiff is all
it takes for hydrazoic , just like for hydrocyanic , so you never
want an azide solution acidified in an open air scenario .
pH papers will respond to the ammonia fumes over a beaker
to confirm basicity so you don't use your nose to check and
make sure there is free ammonia present as your safety shield .

Likely the particulates are going to be so fine that filtering
will be useless , so just see if the tablets will fall apart and
the insolubles settle to the bottom of the solution , which
may be decanted and or pipetted away from the residue .

[grendel23]

I was hoping that the pellets I extracted would fall apart in water, but no such luck. I crushed them against the bottom of the beaker, rather a pain. It would be easier to powder them first, but be very careful of the dust. I was exposed to a small amount of dust from the pellets when opening my airbag and became very dizzy (even more than usual :D ) and my heart was racing.
I filtered mine with coffee filters and a very small amount of Fe₂O₃ came through the filter, good lab filter paper may have gotten it all.
My NaN₃ is a very light grey because of this, but it does not seem to affect its use.

[2,4,6-TNP]

Isn't iron oxide magnetic? What if I were to crush the tablets and dissolve in water? Then simply stir the mixture with a magnet on a string, take it out and scrap off the iron oxide, then repeat the process, instead of using a filter or in combination with a filter?

I am also wondering will the sodium azide in solution react with the iron oxide to make ferric azide?

[Rosco Bodine]

It would be a good precaution to wear at least a paper surgical mask
and some gloves while handling the dry pellets if they are dusting .

The lethal dose of sodium azide is only a few milligrams and
such a small amount may be easily absorbed through the skin
or inhaled , with the only "awareness" of exposure being one
very dead person . Sodium azide is dangerous , it is a lethal
poison . I once read about a college student who was participating
in a glucose metabolism experiment , IIRC , and the mistake was made
of using an isotonic saline solution containing a few hundredths
of a per cent sodium azide as a preservative , for making the
"beverage" drink which the young woman drank quickly at the
beginning of the experiment . A few seconds after drinking the liquid ,
she convulsed a few times and fell stone dead onto the floor .

The airbag pellets may be made up with a water insoluble binder .
If that is the case , it may be useful to first pour over the pellets
a small amount of acetone , let them sit for a few minutes , and then
pour over the pellets some moderately hot water made slightly alkaline
with a very small amount of sodium hydroxide .

[Mr Cool]

I think they have a coating or binder - the pellets dissolve slowly at first, but once you crush them up a bit they dissolve OK. I always did my crushing underwater, and I advise you to do the same. As has been stated, sodium azide is not a thing that you want to get too intimate with.

When I used airbags I never had troubles with ferric azide - it isn't formed.
I used to just crush up my tablets under basified dH2O, let most of the insolubles settle, and decant off the solution through a filter. Then to make lead/silver azide I'd just add the basified metal nitrate solution until no more ppte formed, and then a few drops more "for luck." It seemed to work OK, and more importantly, I'm still alive. Work wet and slightly basified is my advice...

[Mumble]

Iron oxide isn't magnetic. At least pure Iron oxide isn't. Trace amounts of iron in the particles could make for magnetism. I believe the Iron (II,III) Oxide fusion(magnetite) is magnetic. The natural mineral at least is magnetic. Heating to high heats, the ones required for "artificial" fusion, would probably destroy the magnetism.

I would think that Ferric Azide would perhaps form if you allowed the solution to sit long enough under the right conditions. A few days would probably do it in a neutral solution. A slightly acidic solution would really speed it up. With a basic solution I doubt it would happened at all, or to an extremely small degree.

[2,4,6-TNP]

Alright! Now that we have exausted the whole airbag thing, has anyone here ever heard of isocyanogen tetraazide?

My explosives manual gives a synthesis for it using isocyanogen tetrabromide( what is this and where can I get it), acetone, and sodium Azide. The product yield is not very good- only 9 grams of tetraazide for 18 grams of Sodium azide and 20 grams isocyanogen tetrabromide. However if this is similar to lead azide and is capable of detonating RDX directly it may be worth the looking into. As I consider the various azides I see that lead azide is probably the best as Ammonium azide is as volatile as acetone peroxide; a small sample will completly evaperate in a couple days. Cupric azide is more sensitive than mercury fulminate which makes it too dangerous for practical use. Silver azide is sensitive to light and silver-oxide isn't easy to come by for me. Freshly prepared mercury azide is less sensitive than lead azide but when recrystalized it becomes as sensitive as nitrogen triiodide salt. This isocyanogen tetraazide is a colorless crystalline solid with a melting point of 89 Celsius. It is sensitive to shock and explodes when heated to 150 Celsius. It has very high energy out put with it's massive 89% nitrogen content. I'm thinking all these azides detonate, not deflagarate when ignited.

[Rosco Bodine]

US2990412 cites a journal reference for the preparation of
the precursor isocyanogen tetrabromide .

[2,4,6-TNP]

Yea Rosco,

The only thing the good old explosives manual says hear about it is that the isocyanogen tetrabromide should be sublimed before use, because the tetrabromide may break down into unwanted products if it is left to stand for a long time. Just looking at the chemical name it must be an isomer I don't no much about cyanogen. I know it can form potassium cyanide on contacting potassium. Bromide is any compound of a metal with bromine.

Just the poor yield turns me away from this explosive, but also considering the toxic risk makes my very shy. I think I will not make this explosive and I recommend that no one else should either, without reliable safety equiptment.

So Rosco,

When you read the first post of this thread what did you think about the list of primaries I came up with, besides a few of the properties listed that you think are inaccurate?

Is there any in the list that you have not heard of or that may have interested you, that you would like to discuss. I'm all eyes!

[Rosco Bodine]

Lead azide compositions are useful as reliable initiators .
So far , from what I have seen and learned directly from
experiments , I tend to favor the azo-clathrates as being
the most generally desirable of the lead azide compositions .

The versatility and reliability of lead azide in its various
"improved forms" , along with the economy and ease of
synthesis and other practical concerns , puts it way ahead
of the alternatives .

[2,4,6-TNP]

Have you had any experiance with the salts of triazoles and tetrazoles?

I agree with you Rosco, about the Azides I mean! Maybe we can discuss some non-metallic azides; organic azides. I suppose there's got to be something organic you can react sodium azide with. What do you think would happen if sodium azide were reacted with picric acid? or some other high explosives. Would we create a primary similar to Diazodinitrophenol? This could become a wonderful study. I am wondering if the sodium azide would react with straight toluene or benzene. I don't know, maybe it would react with some simple sugars.

[Rosco Bodine]

Have you had any experiance with the salts of triazoles and tetrazoles?

No . The difficulty of the precursors for the triazoles and tetrazoles
has already made my choice in favor of experimenting with azide compositions .


I agree with you Rosco, about the Azides I mean!
Maybe we can discuss some non-metallic azides;
organic azides. I suppose there's got to be something organic
you can react sodium azide with.

Cyanuric Triazide is practical , but you need cyanuric chloride for
the synthesis .


What do you think would happen if sodium azide were reacted with picric acid?

You would produce sodium picrate and hydrazoic acid .

or some other high explosives. Would we create a primary similar to Diazodinitrophenol?

Yes , for example see :

GB406228
GB412460

The product however is inferior to the azo-clathrate .


This could become a wonderful study.

A good study needs some more specific goal and focus
than where this discussion has been going . I mean no
insult by saying it , but you don't seem to be accepting
good information in directing where your focus should be ,
while going off on tangents which will bring you full circle ,
right back to the things I have been saying to spare you
that search .

There doesn't need to be a study done by me .
I already have direct knowledge about the lead azide
compositions which are my preference , and good for any
practical application . The future of my experiments
will therefore be concerning refinements and improvements
upon those materials which I am already satisfied work well .


I am wondering if the sodium azide would react with straight toluene or benzene.

No .


I don't know, maybe it would react with some simple sugars.

Probably not .

[2,4,6-TNP]

Well, yes under the circumstances of not having more precursers and really not needing any, as lead azide can get things going just fine if properly used.

Tell me something! You said you thought that basic lead picrate could get lead azide to detonate. Well tell me about your understanding of how this works! Is it the pressure or the heat from the basic lead picrate?

Also what sustitutes could you see being used for basic lead picrate and styphnate. I mean, could black or double-based powder be used to get the lead azide to detonate?

Lead azide detonates at 350 Celsius. So obiously a simple visco fuse alone most likely would not detonate it. Again, does the basic lead picrate heat the lead azide to 350 Celsius suddenly causing it to detonate or is it caused to detonate by some other means than the heat?

[Rosco Bodine]

The spit from a fuse simply doesn't deliver sufficient heat for long
enough to reliably fire a pressed face of a compressed pellet of
lead azide . Maybe one third to one half the time a misfire will
result if no igniter is used along with the fuse . A few particles of
loose azide , or a bit of loose powder from the fuse core , or a
small amount of black powder will resolve the ignition difficulty .
Smokeless powder is a poor igniter because it is itself difficult to ignite .
A flash igniter like basic lead picrate will perform better than black powder .
The basic lead picrate / lead nitrate / lead chlorate (clathrate) is good too .

See

US2175249

Example 2 describes what is probably the best flash igniter .

[pdb]

Rosco Bodine, this thread happens to "collide" with the one on trinitrotriazidobenzene, as the difficulty to prepare the precursor is inciting me to focus my interest on cyanuric triazide (CTA) instead.

However, according to a study found in the french "Mémorial des Poudres" and other sources, CTA's handling appears very hazardous, with possible spontaneous explosion of amounts of small crystals, when bigger ones are reported to detonade under the tiniest mechanical sollicitation... Have you ever heard of any practical use of this primary in detonators and ways to stabilize it ? One way consists in melting it with 15-20% TNT to decrease its sensibility, but I don't really feel like preparing TNT (as laborious as preparing trinitrotrichlorobenzene...). Can picric acide be an alternative (opening a route to PA + CTA/PA detonators) ? I have found no information in literature about CTA behaviour in presence of acids.

[Rosco Bodine]

GB170359 describes cyanuric triazide .

I have no direct knowledge about it .

[pdb]

GB170359 describes cyanuric triazide .

I have no direct knowledge about it .

Yes, I'm already aware of this patent as well as US1390378. But they underestimate CTA's sensitivity, this is why I am looking for other sources about its real practical use.

[Mr Cool]

TNT is a bit of a pain to make, and I wouldn't want to heat something that sensitive to >122*C in order to melt it with picric...

Other nitroaromatics may work (DNP, DNT, MNN etc) in order to desensitise it, but then you may be making it too poor in terms of initiating capability to bother with when you could make eg high bulk density silver azide or one of the clathrates which are excellent primaries.

What about using eutectics, like DNP/TNP mixtures or something?

"The difficulty of the precursors for the triazoles and tetrazoles
has already made my choice in favor of experimenting with azide compositions"

Urea + ammonium metaphosphate --> guanidine phosphate, + mixed acid --> nitroguanidine, reduce with Zn/HCl --> aminoguanidine, diazotise --> diazoguanidine, - H+ --> guanyl azide --> aminotetrazole.

Perfectly OTC :D.

Hey Rosco, do you have a list of all these useful patent numbers that you keep posting, or do you look for them as needed? If you've got them all noted down then there's a topic in L&L that would appreciate your attention!

[2,4,6-TNP]

How exactly is Cyanuric Triazide made? By looking at the name I would think Hydrogen cyanide is bubbled through a solution of sodium azide! I think I'm wrong about using hydrogen cyanide because my websters dictionary says: Cyanuric - Designating or of a white , crystalline acid made by heating urea. It yields cyanic acid when subjected to a heating process. Searches have not produced any info for me on this explosive and I'm thinking that if any type of cyanide is used it could be extremely hard to obtain, unless homemade from urea, and could be deadly to handle! Best stick to the clathrates of/or straight lead azide.

Rosco I would like that patent list too if you have made one!

For me lead azide is becoming my primary primary, as in the beginning of my explosive adventures, my first synthesis whas Acetone Peroxide, then HMTD, Ammonium nitrate, Picric Acid, RDX, Mercury Fulminate, basic lead picrate, and finally now lead azide and it's variations.

I am also strongly considering Trinitrophloroglucinol lead salt as an additive to lead azide along with lead phosphate as a desensitizer. This would make a very dense initiating composition. Just look at the molecular weights: lead azide 291.242, Trinitrophloroglucinol lead salt 1065.69, and lead phosphate 811.5 with this density, this composition probably would not need to be pressed very much.

[Bert]

Just look at the molecular weights: lead azide 291.242, Trinitrophloroglucinol lead salt 1065.69, and lead phosphate 811.5 with this density, this composition probably would not need to be pressed very much.
Don't confuse molecular weights with densities- Two very different things.

[2,4,6-TNP]

Bert,

All these compounds are lead based. Lead is very dense; it's almost four times heavier than iron! All those lead atoms running into each other can create alot of kinetic energy output in the detonation. I feel this would make for a very powerful detonater when used in combination with a base of PA, RDX, or PETN. It will detonate anything cap sensitive! What more could you want from a couple grams of explosives in a aluminum tube?

Again, the point of me posting this thread is simply to inquire about what primaries will detonate a high explosive base charge and also obviously how easily each one can be obtained, their advantages and their short comings!

Intermediate availibility, cost, and toxicity are of great concern in considering their manufacture.

Also the final products storage stability and ability to be handled safely, and of course it's condition of being able to prorate powerful shock waves.

[Mr Cool]

"I am also strongly considering Trinitrophloroglucinol lead salt as an additive to lead azide along with lead phosphate as a desensitizer."

I can't see any advantage in adding lead phosphate. If you want to desensitise it (doesn't seem necessary to me), you could at least use something insensitive but energetic, and preferably something that will act as a binder also (eg TNT). And why mix the two primaries? If the trinitrophloroglucinate is to act as a flame-sensitising agent, I would recommend instead using straight lead azide (or better variation) as a primary with a small igniting charge on top. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, matcheads will work. There's just no real advantage in mixing them. Also I can imagine phloroglucinol being a PITA to nitrate. Oxidation -> NO2, low yields, horrible black tarry mess....

Cyanuric triazide is formed by reacting sodium azide with a cyanuric trihalide, the later presumably being made from cyanuric acid (from urea) and a phosphorous pentahalide.

"I would think Hydrogen cyanide is bubbled through a solution of sodium azide"

If that did work it would form cyanogen azide. But the other product would be NaH, and that is just not going to happen.

"with this density, this composition probably would not need to be pressed very much"

The compounds are dense, and so you could probably get to ~1.5 g/cm3 without much compression at all - which would not be a bad density for many explosives. But the explosive is made of big, heavy, INERT lead ions and energetic ions. So the density of EXPLOSIVE (the energetic ions) is still very low, and so performance will be poor. That's how I think of it.

"lead atoms running into each other can create alot of kinetic energy output"

The explosive ions create the energy, the lead ions impart it to the secondary. The more lead you have in there, the less energy you can have.

"It will detonate anything cap sensitive!"

It will if your primary detonates the base charge. But it will detonate anything cap sensitive because of your base charge, not because of your primary.

"Intermediate availibility, cost, and toxicity are of great concern in considering their manufacture.
Also the final products storage stability and ability to be handled safely, and of course it's condition of being able to prorate powerful shock waves"

Well, IMO high bulk density silver azide (HBDSA) satisfies those best, or clathrates sound good, but I have no experience with them.

[Rosco Bodine]

The nature of this thread seems to be a newbie with an error sprinkled
"explosives how-to-make-'em manual" , and some wrong ideas , who
comes here questioning the better data of genuine hands on experimenters ,
and still seems sure that the "manual" has more on the ball than good data
provided by people who do have direct knowledge of what they are talking about .

I have gone as far as my patience allows with this broad discussion which
it seems will probably amount to a "critical review" of the contents of that
manual , exploring every tangent and "mixture" of chemicals that a newbie
with a chemical catalogue or a school supply room access can read listings
and labels of what is inventory , and imagine is useful to make a bang .

It would seem more productive to continue experiments which are incomplete
in specific areas that have already shown positive results , than to try to
discuss a number of different primary explosives all lumped together in one
thread by someone desiring to be spoonfed the collective knowledge available
about whatever can be redirected to the newbies "mini-forum" created in a
single , much too generalized thread , the premise of which has become evident .

Sorry , but I call 'em like I see 'em .

[2,4,6-TNP]

Rosco Bodine,

I have taken a great leap into the world of High explosives suddenly and purposefully! My first steps in this new world have been staggering like a drunkard or a newly born colt. I am not ashamed of my ignorance or my ill-informed notions about explosives. How could I know better? You should praise me for my desire to learn! I am sorry if I have not contributed anything to this forum yet that you see as honorable, but I shall sit back and read all I can to come through with a better understanding. I am thankful for your "patience" with me. Your replies to my dispicable posts have been invaluable to this knowledge deficiant, newbie. Thanks again for the time you have spent replying to me. It will be a very long time before I post a new thread, because I relise I should not plague this forum with misinformation and complacent questions! I will however reply to existing threads and even then I will be careful to spend a good amount of time in study and carefully think through what I write down, as what I write will intirely mold this communities view of me and determine if I can ever earn their respect. What I'm saying is: in the future I'd rather keep my mouth shut than be thought a fool anymore!

With respect,
The bottle breaking newbie, 2,4,6-TNP

[Rosco Bodine]

No problem ,

We have all been there .

The body of information about explosives is
simply too vast to discuss in terms like
" lets talk about primary explosives ....which are the good ones? "

However , the closest thing you will find to a "universal initiator"
is lead azide and lead azide compositions including the azo-clathrates .
You won't go wrong to think of those lead azide compositions highly
from the start , because years of experiments with alternatives
will inevitably bring you right back to the lead azide compositions
as the thing that works best for a return on the investment of
your time and money .

Similarly for base charges , PETN rules , but RDX and picric acid ,
also trinitroresorcinol ( styphnic acid ) will show their merit , no matter
what other more difficult or expensive materials are tried to achieve
any small gains in performance . ETN is another good choice .

Suppose you have to spend ten times as much and go to much more
trouble to gain a slight improvement in performance by choosing to
use more "exotic" materials ......the question is why bother , when
it is usually easier just to increase the amount slightly of the cheaper
materials and get the increased output by that method ?

The economics and practical concerns are going to present limitations
upon experimentation done by individuals having limited budgets and
not having fully equipped and funded , licensed ordnance laboratories as their
workshop . There is also the very real concern of how much unwanted
attention may be generated by individuals purchasing "known precursors"
for business that may be pursued more sensibly by "off label use" of
more mundane materials which are OTC .

If your interest is for practical usage of proven materials consider the
facts above and proceed accordingly . You need search no further to
find what works well and is predictable and reliable .

The rest of the field of interest is related more to specialized applications ,
and experimental , academic pursuit , than to anything needed for
usual purposes of ordnance or demolition .