Terrorists using information found here?

[knowledgehungry]

With the way the World is as it is now, I would not be surprised if there were more than one terrorist organization looking through this website. I'm not stating this for legal concerns, more from a moral standpoint. I dont like the idea that what I post might be used to harm "innocent" civilians. Now I'm not suggesting we should shut this website down at all, but maybe have certain sections (Battlefield Chemistry, Improvised weapons, Detonation and demoliton) be made so that memebers would have to request additional permission to view those sections. Thus having a more limited audience and less chance for a random terrorist to flip through the forum and then get what he wanted without ever saying anything on the forum. Any suggestions?

EDIT: I'm sorry I did not mean it to censor ourselves, the information would still be there, however it would require more effort to get at, thus giving the information to those who want information, not how to blow shit up. I wasn't suggesting that all or even most of the subject matter here should be kept under closer guard, merely suggesting that maybe some things would be best kept to those who have proven themselves as people in pursuit of knowledge. I'm sorry if I'm out of line, I was asking for suggestions,and opinions since you are an admin than your opinion kind of ends all further discussion, so be it, I just had to ease my conscience by trying.( yes i know, I still have a conscience, we aren't all perfect).

And yes, i completely agree with teh fact that their is no Evil information, only evil uses, however improvised weapons and detonation IS about how to use things for evil(at times). And the weaponization of Chemical weapons is the same sort of thing. Just my 2 cents. I'll drop this now unless you have any thing else to say, to me the issue is settled nothing will change since NBK says so.

[nbk2000]

This line of thought has gotten others banned.

We'll not be censoring ourselves, otherwise the ragheads have succeeded in making us as ignorant as they are, and that's the end of us.

There's no such thing as "evil" or "dangerous" knowledge, only the way in which that knowledge is applied that makes it "evil" or "dangerous".

[megalomania]

Eith that line of thought the USA should throw down its arms and surrender its stockpiles of chemical, nuclear, and biological weapons, and place itself in the hands of the arabs.

Today there may seem no need for this information, but every government topples, and society undergoes change. In these times such knowledge will be invaluable to protect yourselves and family memebers from the actions of terrorists, be they ragheads or state sanctioned.

I will remove this information when the United States government stops publishing it. I will remove it when the FBI, CIA, NSA, BATF, and DEA is abolished. I will remove it when the US armed forces are disbanded. I will remove it when the war against terror is over. I will remove it when no nation of the Earth wields a weapon in any offensive capicity.

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter...

[Ropik]

I agree with NBK2000: There is NOT any bad or dangerous knowledge. What you know can NOT endanger yourself or others(oh, maybe if it would be some top secret information because then you aren't good in living form for government). Only bad guy which realizes this knowledge to harm people, property of others and similar is dangerous(and I hope that NONE of us is terrorist).

[Efraim_barkbit]

If your fear of letting the "wrong people" get access to "dangerous" info here stops you from contributing, then maybe you should follow the path of yt2095?



however improvised weapons and detonation IS about how to use things for evil(at times).
And how are you going to seperate the potential terrorists from the guy who just wants to learn how to detonate explosives or build a cannon just for fun??
I posted about to build a cannon, (wich sadly where stopped) how would you know if I where going to use it for "terrorrist activitys"?
When I post about testin ANNM, how would you know that I´m not planning to blow up a mall?

thus giving the information to those who want information, not how to blow shit up

I believe that most people here are here because they want to learn how to make and use explosives. in other words, blow shit up.
If I make a improvised claymore, and set up targets to see the effects from it, does that mean that I´m planning to use a claymore against people?

I remember you posting about your NG experiments, for all I know you could be a palestinian terrorist planning a bombing, and that you made this thread to "cover" for you.

[tmp]

Terrorists don't need information from this board to kill people. They've been
doing that long before the Internet existed. They don't have a problem
getting all the military ordnance they want. I'm more concerned about the
dumb little shits getting information off the crap sites, doing something stupid
with it, and the heat comes down on us !

[chinhtuan]

bravo
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter...
i full agreed with you

[aikon]

I totlly agree witm tmp. Terrorist don't need the internet to get information about explosives. They have their own "experts" and training camps where former soviet scientists share their knowledge with those little muslim assholes called terrorists.

[vulture]

Define "Terrorists"

Terrorists and Terrorism are two buzz words often used these days to suppress socially/politically undesirable elements. Example: When the Palestinians kill Israelis, they're terrorists. When the Israelian Army kills Palestinians, they're just doing their job. The only criterium used to label the Palestinians as terrorists is that they don't have a state or a real army.

A soccer mom reading this site would say: "WTF are they on about! They're dirty evil terrorists themselves!! *activate raving nuts mode* "

See...

[xperk]

the goal of terror is to make people regulate their own behaviour eventhough it is their RIGHT to do otherwise.
For instance refrain from using airplanes for travel, visiting exotic countries, expressing viewpoints etc.

The right of citizens to exchange information cannot be questioned. If we allow the mind-prison of censorship, I don't see how we can call ourselves free.

The western civilization is under attack from the most backward illiterate movement - I don't see that we can win that fight by encouraging ignorance.

And then the practical issues: I would guess that most members of this forum would be far better of than the average Joe at taking counter measures in case of a terror attack DUE to their knowledge about potentially lethal matters, be it poisons, chemical, explosives aso.

[matjaz]

<B>the goal of terror is to make people regulate their own behaviour eventhough it is their RIGHT to do otherwise.</B> (xperk)
I think this is an excellent definition! Now, it allows for some interesting interpretation.
- "cooperating with the US will get you more bomb attacks" (alqaida to the Spanish)
- "Experimenting with explosives will get you imprisoned." (most governments)
- "This line of thought has gotten others banned." (NBK2000, this thread)
Terrorism comes in many ways. Tearing people apart with bombs is the most primite form of it. NBK's way is a modern one - The landscape is virtual. The death is a "beam of plasma".

It's actually just another layer. First you create an enclave of freedom. Then you add rules. First the simple and obvious ones. The ones that do good to the community. Then special ones. And more special ones. Anyone read Orwell's Animal Farm? :)

NBK,
I feel very good about the freedom of speech and openness of this forum. And I'd vote for it if asked to vote. The thing that should get one banned is wasting people's time with answered FAQs, profanities, posts with no real content, etc. Agree here. I also agree on the "info & science is good, only uses/users can be bad" part.
But I really don't like seeing people terrorized for their opinions. People who have contributed well to the forum having to "regulate their behaviour" for fear of being HEDed or whatever. Intelligent opinions, are to be dealt with with arguments. It's just too *!*$&** similar to the way the govt's do it. To the reason that brought us all here.
NBK, any comment? I may have misunderstood your post.

[nbk2000]

The goal of terror is to make people regulate their own behaviour even though it is their RIGHT to do otherwise.


And therein lies the fault in your logic in trying to apply this definition to this site.

You do NOT have a "right" to post here, as this is a privately owned and paid for site, not the public commons.

You are allowed to post here by the owners, the invitation being extended in the belief of the furtherance of discussion on a SPECIFIC type of subject matter. If the owners decide your presence is no longer desirable, your ass is gone, and good riddance to it. :p

Try applying your "right" of opinion at a biker bar by shouting something like "AMERICA IS THE GREAT SATAN!", and observe how far your "right" to express your opinion carries you out the door. :D

Say your opinion anywhere you want, but realize you have to deal with the consequences of it as well, hence the 3 day ban on you, which can be permanently extended upon request.

As anyone knows, all animals are NOT created equal, as anyone trying to equate the sheep to a wolf should know better. ;)

[matjaz]

Matjaz returning from the relaxing 3-days off...

<B>"...though it is their RIGHT to do otherwise." And therein lies the fault in your logic in trying to apply this definition to this site... ...as this is a privately owned and paid for site...</B>

Good reasoning! My mistake.
I still think the debate would be more interesting with both opinions present, even if in this thread I personally share yours. But, as you're saying, since I'm not paying for the forum bandwidth, it's Mega's call or yours or whoever.

<B>...at a biker bar by shouting something like "AMERICA IS THE GREAT SATAN!", and observe...</B>

:) I'd expect a thunderous laugh, actually, followed by a good debate. I find bikers above-average intelligent. And, since I think no less of most of the forum members here, ...

Anyway, my apologies to the forumites for the apparently unsatisfactory quality and content of my posts on this forum.

<HR>
On topic,

I too think that terrorists don't depend on this forum. (And even if they did, so do they on chemistry/electronics/etc textbooks. Limit the distribution of books also?)

The poor bastards talked into carrying an AP belt don't surf the net. They have their bomb-masters, keeping to their recipes, and these also have the money to buy ready-made products. Usually they don't need the sophisticated techniques out of public knowledge.

Even more. A year ago I might not recognize a homemade bomb if I saw one in a hotel lobby. Today I probably would. Today I might even be able to tell if no one should touch that particular one or see that it's about to go off and try to disarm it myself in the remaining few moments... I'd stand better chances because of Roguesci.

I'd still feel sad if something I contributed were used to hurt someone. I guess it's the same as feeling bad if someone got injured crashing by his own fault into my car. Don't we all react like that?

[nbk2000]

I'd feel no remorse or guilt if someone did something "evil" with infromation I provided, just as I wouldn't feel bad if someone cut off one of their hands with a power tool I gave them.

The responsibility for the use, or misuse, lies with the user, not the manufacturer or seller, unless they KNEW before hand the intent of the user to use it for "evil" purposes.

The inability to realize this simple logic is why we have morons trying to sue the gun manufacturers, for some ghetto kid having killed their own ghetto kid, using the gun made by someone else.

If someone comes here and says "I want to know how to make a bomb to kill my neighbor", that person 'dies' here instantly!

If it's an abstracted desire to learn how to improve fragment projection and velocity, than that's OK because we've no reason to think they intend to blow up their neighbor.

[Psychlonic]

The issue at hand is just another rehash of what's already going on in America - people giving up their freedoms in the name of security.

To quote Benjamin Franklin: "Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security nor liberty."

It has gotten out of hand. We have people suing McDonalds for getting fat from their food, people suing for spilling hot coffee on themselves and getting burns, people suing gun manufacturers because someone got killed by one of their guns... the list goes on.
Seriously people, does Ronald McDonald point a gun to your head and force you to buy and eat all the food you can afford? I know coffee sure as hell can't jump. Finally, if you laid a gun on a table with ammo sitting next to it, do people really think it can load itself and shoot someone?

It's OPERATOR ERROR. Should I sue a pornsite if I get arthritis in my wrists?

:rolleyes:

Give me a break. Keep this site open and free. Anyone who uses this information to do harm is at wrong - not this site.

[matjaz]

I'd feel no remorse or guilt if someone did something "evil" with infromation I provided, just as I wouldn't feel bad if someone cut off one of their hands with a power tool I gave them.
See, that's where I differ. I would feel bad. Not guilty, but not at ease. It's more or less the same as my example above with the car crash. I'd still provide them with power tools after an accident like this, though. (And that's probably equivalent to keeping the forum open.)

If someone comes here and says "I want to know how to make a bomb to kill my neighbor", that person 'dies' here instantly!
Isn't this criterion a bit naive? People are boasting happily in another thread about how to tear a swat team entering their home to pieces with claymores, etc...

BTW, the forum is not completely open, anyway. One needs to register to be able read all sections. What's the catch here? To get an estimate on the number of readers?

[vulture]

t's OPERATOR ERROR. Should I sue a pornsite if I get arthritis in my wrists?

Hell yeah! The "Bush-is-the-new-messiah" crowd will happily support your crusade because you've been entangled by the devil himself!

Amen!

:D

[nbk2000]

Isn't this criterion a bit naive? People are boasting happily in another thread about how to tear a swat team entering their home to pieces with claymores, etc...


Certainly not!

That's an abstracted concept, akin to talking about killing invading Soviets ala' Red Dawn, not a much less abstracted expression of murderous intent against a neighbor, as which of the two is more likely to happen? Wipe out a SWAT team, which would (hopefully) only be kicking down your door because you did something to bring them down on you, or murdering a neighbor?

I know which one happens everyday, and which one has yet to happen, don't you?

[matjaz]

Absolutely. Assuming you have an abstracted honest neighbor-killer who cannot masquerade his questions. ;)

[darkdontay]

There is little information here that can not be found by simply looking elsewhere. Our only threat in such away as you seem to by talking KH is that we are a collective hive thinking in relatively the same fashion. That which sets us apart from others, is that we have some many people logging good hours researching and finding pretienit[sp?] information.
But also, that most of those here already posses enough knowledge to know shit from gold. There is a million sites and books out their about bomb, but five people with experience talking about it and explaining it in basically real time is more informative then twenty-three year old book by some long dead author on the subject, and also having the book give little personal experience information.

Every subject has issues that you would never think about until you are their and experiment with them. Take jail as a issue, if you have never been their you would not think about the need to have a bottle filled with water shoved into your can[toilet]. Most jails I have seen use "T's" for the Toilets, where the toilet A and B are connected to the same main line. Now when A flushes and lot of fecal matter will " back flush" into B.

That right their is a example of where exepreince assits in giving more then some simple book can. One would not expect that if you bought a book about going to jail [I know their are two for prison and I belive only that I have found about going to jail] it would explain bout the toilet systems. However had you been on a can and the guy in the house next to you flushed and you go something foul flood up you ass you would not be very happy. In explosives and other area, you do not get unhappy, you just die. So yes, we pose more of the position to enlighten others, but their is no specific danger. If we shut down does that mean that all knowledge of the respective areas in which we teach will cease to exist on the Internet, books, mail subscriptions.... common knowledge to chemistry students or those already possessing the information beforehand. No it changes nothing, if any thing we teach humility and and respect for things.
Simple test, act or show you are in the least bit kewl[stupid] and see how long you last here. We are our own censor system. That is enough.
Plus we are using what NBK v6.66 I'm not sure we could get much stronger, plus the small program daemon functions consisting of the rest of this forum as a whole evaluating every new and also older member.