Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide

[Vegeta]

Alot of people are always wondering about this as an explosive. Here is a synthesis I found.

PREPARATION AND PROPERTIES OF METHYL ETHYL KETONE PEROXIDE

The three most common forms of methyl ethyl ketone peroxide are:

MONOMERIC: C4H10(O)4

DIMERIC: C8H18(O)6

ANHYDROUS DIMERIC: C8H16(O)4

The anhydrous dimeric form is the preferable form to create; it is more powerful and less sensitive to shock. Bot hforms are very sensitive to heat. Anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide takes many times as sharp of a blow from a hammer to initiate detonation than with trimeric acetone peroxide. This is due to several factors:

(1) It is an oily liquid, not a solid, A solid will not shift shape to fit its container, as will a liquid. Thus, when trimeric acetone peroxide is struck with a hammer, the crystals shatter, causing decomposition; when anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide is struck with a hammer, it will shift shape significantly, often avoiding decomposition.
(2) The C-O-O-C group is better shielded in anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide than in trimeric acetone peroxide. Thus, random energy surges will be less likely to affect the C-O-O-C group enough to break all of the bonds in the group, which would result in exothermic decomposition, likely starting a chain reaction; this would be perceived as detonation.
(3) There is less stress on the peroxide groups in anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide than in trimeric acetone peroxide (bond stress is mostly responsible for monomeric acetone peroxide's incredible instability, and anhydrous dimeric acetone peroxide's relative instability when compared to trimeric acetone peroxide).
(4) The decomposition to an exothermic stage of decomposition of a single molecule of anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide requires more energy than with a single molecule of trimeric acetone peroxide.
(5) Less energy is liberated from the decomposition of a single anhydrous methyl ethyl ketone peroxide molecule, causing it to be less likely that detonation will occur from the decomposition of just a handful of anhydrous methyl ethyl ketone peroxide molecules.

Perhaps the most valuable property of methyl ethyl ketone peroxide is the fact that it can be stored for a long period of time. Chemical decomposition does not proceed beyond the monomeric form, with the obvious exception of deflagration and detonation. Autonomous chemical decomposition is very slow when not in the presence of hydrogen peroxide (which causes the anhydrous dimeric form to begin to decompose slowly into the monomeric form). Because of this, it is wise to prepare anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide in an excess of methyl ethyl ketone (this fact has been factored into the below instruction on preparation of methyl ethyl ketone peroxide). Anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide is a thick, oily liquid. The anhydrous dimeric form, when pure, possesses a sharp, sour, acidic "burning" odor. The procedure for preparation that will soon be discussed will produce mostly the anhydrous dimeric form.

PREPARATION OF ANHYDROUS DIMERIC METHYL ETHYL KETONE PEROXIDE

CHEMICALS NEEDED:
-40mL 27.5% H2O2 solution (other concentrations may be used; the volume of hydrogen peroxide solution will need to be adjusted accordingly; the quantity of sulfuric acid used will also need to be adjusted)
-25mL Methyl Ethyl Ketone CH3COCH2CH3 (sold as a solvent at hardware stores; keep in mind that it will dissolve most plastics)
-5mL 98% sulfuric acid (other concentrations may be used, the volume of sulfuric acid will need to be adjusted accordingly)
-200mL NaHCO3 solution

1) Place 25mL of methyl ethyl ketone in a 100mL beaker. Place this beaker in an ice bath at temperatures ranging preferrably from -10 to 5 degrees Celcius; the lower end of the described recommended temperature range is preferrable.

2) Place 40mL of 27.5% H2O2 solution in a 100mL beaker. Place this beaker in an ice bath at temperatures ranging preferrably from -10 to 5 degrees Celcius; the lower end of the described recommended temperature range is preferrable.

3) Wait fro the temperature of both the methyl ethyl ketone and the temperature of the 27.5% H2O2 solution to fall into the recommended temperature range. Then, pour the beaker of methyl ethyl ketone into the beaker of hydrogen peroxide solution. Stir this solution for thirty seconds.

4) Add 5mL of 98% sulfuric acid slowly, drop by drop, taking care to keep temperatures within the recommended temperature range, into the beaker containing the monomeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide. If the temperature rises above 5 degrees Celcius, stop adding the sulfuric acid immediately.

5) After all of the sulfuric acid is added, wait 24 hours. It is highly recommended to attempt to keep the temperatures within the recommended temperature range during the entirety of every step of the prepataion (this is a very common mistake made when attempting to make trimeric acetone peroxide; most will not bother to keep the temperatures around zero degrees Celcius while waiting 24 hours or so for the reaction to complete; the result of that is far less stable acetone peroxide due to lower yields of the trimeric form and higher yields of the dimeric form).

6) The beaker should now have two layers; a thick oily layer on the top, and a translucent white, relatively thin liquid on the bottom. The thick oily layer on top is the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide. All traces of acid must now be removed. Pour this beaker into a 300mL beaker. Then slowly add 200mL of NaHCO3 solution. Stir vigorously for five minutes; try to keep the size of the pockets of the oily liquid (the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide) as small as possible when stirring.

7) Most of the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide will now begin to sink to the bottom of the beaker. Extract it with a syringe. Some will also remain on the surface; extract this also with a syringe (it is possible to isolate the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide by decantation, but this process can be very time consuming, frusturating, and will not be able to harvest nearly as much of the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide as the syringe extraction method).

If you wish to further deacidify the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide, place it in an airtight aluminum container, in an ice bath (extremely important!). Leave the methyl ethyl ketone peroxide in the airtight aluminum container until bubbles no longer form. A safer alternative to this process is to add noon-crumpled pieces of aluminum foil to the anhdrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide (also in an ice bath); however this will often make it difficult to recollect all of the anhdrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide, due to it sticking to the pieces of aluminum foil; it can be very difficult to remove from that surface.

9) Now pour the deacidified anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide into an open glass, or plastic (not made of a polyhydrocarbon plastic!). Let it stay in the open at temperatures around 15 degrees Celcius to allow most of the water to evaporate off.

10) Now that the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide is dehydrated, it is ready for use.

STORAGE: Pour the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide into a sealed plastic container (not made of a polyhydrocarbon plastic!) for storage. The reason for sealing it is to prevent loss of anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide due to evaporation. The lower the temperatures are during storage, the better, with the exception of temperatures so low that it freezes the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide.

Density of MEKP = 1.0g/cm3
Freezing point = approximately -5 to -10 degrees Celcius
Dimeric 2-peroxybutane explodes upon contact with concentrated sulfuric acid.

It seems that dimeric 2-peroxybutane (MEKP) is more stable than previously thought. It does not explode unless severely shocked. I have tried to explode as much as 4mL using only fuse, and that resulted in nothing but a tall pillar of flame. It does explode with a sharp crack when hit *hard* with a hammer. I suggest using aqueous ammonia instead of sodium hydrogen carbonate for neutralizing acid.

A dimeric 2-peroxybutane / ammonium nitrate dynamite:
11mL (or grams) of dimeric 2-peroxybutane mixed with 100g of ammonium nitrate.

[Madog555]

i made this from my crappy PVC cleaner once. it makes a huge flame and smells horrible. there is a solid form, it is a higher isomer and u must make it at realy low temp to get it.

[frogfot]

Remembered a question i wanned to ask about MEKP, and it probably belongs here.
I have seen lots of pictures on MEKP that was taken directly after synth, and it always looks a bit turbid.. Im guessing this have to do with water present. If so, is it possible/allowable to remove water with concentrated NaCl solution as for NG?
Also, i heard that required temperature during synth is -10 to 5*C.. I thoat to go with 0 to 5*C during addition and 0*C during 24h, sounds resonable? What is your preferred temperature to produce the liquid di- isomer? I don't wanna have the crystalline tri- form, which is told to form at lower temperatures, cause this will spoil all the fun with "liquid" explosive compound :p

EDIT: Wanna add that i will use 30% HCl, I have calculated required ammount to 11 ml (instead of 5 ml 98%H₂SO₄). My calculations was based on pH (taking in mind both protons of sulfuric acid and all dencities).

[EP]

It takes a lot of work to keep it below 5*C and doesn't really seem to be absolutely necessary. Like VoD, I just keep it below 15*C.

[NERV]

I found it pretty eseay to keep the temp below 5*C, just so long as you use a salt Ice bath. Plus I find that when you add the H2SO4 at a temp over 5*C the mixture sizzles.

[kingspaz]

is the H2SO4 concentrated? if so, dilute it first before adding, thus no hot spot around the acid will form.

[frogfot]

Thanx for temp info, i'll hold it 0-10*C in further synth.
I made some MEKP (24ml 30% H₂O₂; 15ml MEK; 7ml 30% HCl; 24h; 10g NaHCO₃ in 100ml H₂O) and realised that it was hard to extract MEKP because it was over all solution. Extraction could be probably done with ether, if one have it.. So i've rised the dencity of water with 20g NaCl. This made all oily drops go to surface, though some very tiny was still "hanging" in water. Good to mention that on addition of NaCl solution bubbled.. i don't know why, but it's probably hydrogen peroxide decomposing in contact with crap in NaCl (don't ask me what crap..)
Upon waiting 10 minutes, majority of MEKP was in top lyer. Iv'e collected 9,8ml which is satisfactory :) If this was anhydrous di- MEKP yield is 43%.

[THe_rEaL_dEaL]

What do you guys usually do with this.

Do you put it in caps.
Pour it into assorted confined spaces and det with caps or what.

I have tried to explode as much as 4mL using only fuse, and that resulted in nothing but a tall pillar of flame.

Is this the same when under slight compression (as is a liquid = doesn't compress) or in tight confinement, with a fuse?

This stuff sounds pretty interesting. Liquid explosives appeal to me as I like the fact that they fill their surroundings and are pourable in the true sense. (not just pouring a powder in smal particle form).

Ohhhhh just imagine a hole drilled in a power pole with some of this shit pumped in. Insert some wadding on top and seal it in place crazy

[Leadazide]

To make an effective waterbath at below 0 degress use a 45/55 % mix of Ethylene Glycol/water. This mix will stay liquid down to at least -20 degress celsius. How you cool it and keep it cold, I don't know. I have the luxury of working in a fully epuiped lab so I just "burrow! a waterbath with cooling. :)

And just for the sake of it I can mention that I found Ethyele Glycol available from autoshops as windshield wiper liqiud.

[Trinitrotoluene]

SWIM made and played around with this compound before. IMO I think it sucks anyways, 15ml was placed into a film canaster and was detonated with a gram of AP, it really stinked up the detonation site, it wasn't very impressive IMO, AP was better.

[knowledgehungry]

I have found the most interesting use of MEKP is pouring it onto a stick, log or stump if youve got a lot, running a fuse to it and setting it off. It vanishes. Just find something porous and the MEKP will soak in and be able to be detonated by flame.

[blindreeper]

Has anyone isolated the solid version of MEKP? I think i did one time...The mixed reactants were in a freezer at about -20 *C. After 12 hours it was looked exactly like AP, fluffy white precipitate. I thought it was freezing and know that NG is really bad when frozen so I put it into the fridge which is about 5 *C. I returned an hour later to find 2 layers that had sepertated.
I think the solid form formed but not sure, anyone had this experience?

[metal dragon]

I believe that MEKP if absorbed in the skin and a flame put to it will explode destroying finger. Is this true? Because if it is there would be a very big risk playing with this stuff.

[Polverone]

If you think you might let a significant quantity of a liquid explosive soak into your skin and then accidentally ignite it, this is not the hobby for you. Beside that, I've heard (though cannot personally confirm) that MEKP stings ferociously when it soaks into the skin, so it may warn you ahead of time.

[lucas]

I was coniderig the possibility of using MEKP as a solvent for AP. It should work quite effectively to increase density and hence VoD, reduce sensitivity and increase shelf life and workability. I was expecting less than 20% MEKP to be sufficient for a paste effect. Has anyone heard of this being done and how did it perform.



MSDS http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/ME/methyl_ethyl_ketone_peroxide.html

[Rosco Bodine]

The solubility of AP in MEKP is high enough so that solutions which
are 50 per cent each are a liquid at room temperature . The easiest
way of making such a solution is to copreciptate the mixed organic peroxide
from a half and half mixture of acetone and methyl ethyl ketone mixed
with 27 percent hydrogen peroxide in slight excess of theory , using HCl
for the peroxidation catalyst . The mixed AP/MEKP peroxides separate
as the lower layer . Neutralization and rinsing is not required .

A small drop of the liquid soaked into a small bit of paper towel will
detonate powerfully when struck by a hammer , ( steel upon steel ) .
The reactivity of the MEKP component makes non-metallic
charge containers necessary . The liquid should be an excellent performer
in combination with ammonium nitrate , but I have done no tests .

[Zeitgeist]

Um, I can easily buy 50% MEKP which is sold as a catalytic hardener for fiberglass resin. I have checked many brands and they are all 50%.

Has anyone had any experience with this? Excuse me for i am noob.

[Blackhawk]

That has been discussed before, I have heard that it is the disolved monomer isomer of MEKP that you can attain my evaping the solvent, I tried and nothing was happening after a few days, so I didn't bother. However has anyone tried detonating this liquid as is? or using it to senestise AN? It would be quite good if you could but I think there is little chance of it doing anything as it is quite stable in the soloution (stable enough to be readily available to consumers).

[AsylumSeaker]

Originally posted by Zeitgeist
Um, I can easily buy 50% MEKP which is sold as a catalytic hardener for fiberglass resin. I have checked many brands and they are all 50%.

Has anyone had any experience with this? Excuse me for i am noob.

I am a noob too, or at least a noob to roguesci. Do you mean you got 50% mek? Or did you actually find mek peroxide which is sold commericaly.. I get my 100% mek from the plumbing section of the hardware store. It is red though.. so it can't really be 100%. The colouring must count for something.

[Blackhawk]

The MEK is used as a solvent in joining PVC IIRC, the MEKP soloution is actually the peroxide but it is in around a 40-50% soloution and is used for catalytic hardening of plastic resins, usually polyester. The MEK can be used to make the MEKP and the red dye shouldn't effect the final product, appart from making it red. As for the MEKP it's usefulness is still under 'question' I'm not sure if you could det it, but I assume a powerfull enough shockwave should start it up, but I haven't tried.

[Zeitgeist]

I wonder if the 50% catalyst stuff can be puriifed somehow?

I am trying to make this stuff ATM, but the MEK just forms a layer on top pretty much straight away, so i presume there isn't any way to tell if it's the peroxide or just the original MEK without burning some? .

With one batch, i added extra conc. HCL and some Acetone as well, hoping to form a AP/MEKP blend, this one has not seperated as much, the whole lot is red and there is only a tiny amount floating on top, maybe this is the MEKP? None of the AP is precipitating

I'm using red PVC primer, 1000g/L Methyl Ethyl Ketone as well

acetone is the trick for getting the pink stains off surfaces

[Rosco Bodine]

This experimental synthesis of a mixed AP / MEKP liquid was
originally posted by Mr. Anonymous at Mad Science .

Mix 105ml of acetone and 105ml of methyl ethyl ketone , in a quart jar having a plastic lid . Pre-chill in a freezer the mixed ketones , and in separate containers 310ml of Baquacil 27 percent peroxide and 40ml 31.45 percent HCl . When everything is sub-freezing cold , pour the cold ketones mixture into the cold peroxide and swirl to mix . Prepare a bowl of ice cubes and water large enough to serve as a cooling bath for the quart jar . Then add the HCl incrementally in four portions every fifteen minutes and swirl to mix and allow to cool in the ice bath between additions . Place the lid on the jar loosely at first and leave it in the melting ice for twenty-four hours . The lid should be just snug enough to prevent evaporation but not so tight as to prevent a slow leaking of any overpressure . A layer of mixed organic peroxides will separate as a clear viscous oil , yield about 145 grams . This can be pipetted off or a decantation followed by use of a separatory funnel can be used to get the product which is the bottom layer .
This mixed peroxide solution consists of predominately 50 percent acetone peroxide trimer , and 50 percent methyl ethyl ketone peroxide dimer , with smaller percentages of different isomers of each . The liquid is incompatible with metals and reactive towards many things , but seems safe in contact with teflon , polypropylene and polyethylene . A tiny droplet of the stuff soaked into a small ball of cotton , smaller than a BB if you value your ears , gives a very loud report when place upon iron and whacked by a hammer . A bit of paper towel works too . The liquid ketones mix could be used an active plasticizer and densifier for crystalline peroxides to improve their performance , or used as a sensitizer and fuel component similarly as is nitromethane used for the two component Kinepak type explosives based on ammonium nitrate .
Plastic containers would be an imperative for this composition . While it may well be flame sensitive , the highest performance would probably be realized if it was cap initiated . HMTD for example or AP caps should be entirely adequate . Such compositions by weight would be about 1:5 ratio for CO balance and greatest brisance to about 1:8.4 for CO2 balance and greatest utilization of fuel value of the organic peroxides .

[Zeitgeist]

http://www.osha-slc.gov/dts/sltc/methods/organic/org077/org077.html

There is some info here, including images of the monomer, dimer, and cyclo dimeric forms

OK some more details of my sucessful MEKP:

With the red oily liquid seperated, it should appear slightly more viscous and dense than the original (pipe primer) MEK, let this stand to evaporate traces of MEK and there it is. Like HTMD, it won't detonate unconfined from a flame the way AP will, and like HTMD i can't tell if it detonates or not when belted with a hammer on an anvil.

[Pyroman]

I bought a quarter gallon can of polyester resin - used to repair the car bidies-that came with a 25ml of hardener. The hardener used to be a composition based on benzoil-peroxide that is a white cream, but this time the hardener is a clear oily liquid and say- METHYL ETHYL KETONE PEROXIDE, i think this is really the explosive mentioned here. Tomorrow I´ll make some experiments with that. I think that mixed with AN must give a high explosive similar to the AN/NM explosive known as KINEPACK.

[Mumble]

The resin hardener is in fact this compound. If you would have looked up a few posts you would have known that. It is the monomer form. From what I have read, this form is not the best for detonating. It can be used to sensitise though. The product in your possesion is not actually pure MEKP either. It is actually MEKP in solution, probably methanol or another cheap solvent. I have heard that if you evaporate the solution you will get a white powder remaining. I really don't know what it is or why it happens. All the literature I've seen states all forms as liquids.

Making your own MEKP produces a more pure product and more energetic. Plus the experience and fun is unmatched. The ability to make anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide really is an asset to MEKP based charges. It is the most powerful, and not really any more difficult than any other form.

[static_firefly]

Iv made MEKP a few times. It generally burns when in a few drops, but will easly reach DDP when absorbed into something pourus such as tissue paper and confined. Heres a simple flame test of some MEKP (1 drop)

http://www.angelfire.com/theforce/sectionf/MEKP.WMV

When MEKP is left for some amount of time, say a few months it will turn into the crystal version. Apperently this happens when there is some H2O2 present.

[Zeitgeist]

The Polymerisation Catalyst is normally 40-50% in Dimethyl Pthalate

Even 1 drop will detonate when dripped onto concrete or steel and hit

Being a liquid, it's quite versatile and easier to prepare i think, no need for filtering and farting around

I have been getting better yeilds and greater purity with 30% H2O2, compared to the 6% i used to have

[Myrol]

I've made now more than three times MEKP and had a Question about storing that oily stuff! I have three Bottles MEKP: one with 110ml one with 490ml and one with 550ml absolutely pure MEKP! I washed the big layers 2 times with diluted Ammonia and bubble some one through the oil to be sure its really Neutralized, remainder Ammonia was extracted with a good final wash distilled water and than separated in a separatoryfunnel to extract the Water from the milky MEKP! I dried it over anhydrous Sodiumsulfate to make it perfectly waterclear! Now i have this three bottles in my cellar since two months and dont want the fluffy solid form who described someone that MEKP turns into the solid form after a while! My MEKP has the same status like on the first day, but i dont want trouble because its not less (1,15 Liters)

[atlas#11]

That's a lot of mekp! As for storage, I have some that I made several months ago under my dresser and it is still fine. I would keep it cool and away from sunlight(like HMTD), but other than that it seems storage stable. If I were you I would start using it though, just so it dosen't have a chance to go to waste. I would guess it would make excellenct (and cheap) boosters for ANFO charges. A film canister full with a cap would do wonders and it makes decent caps as well, I've made two or three with KNO3 and they worked well. I haven't made any more because it smells so bad that my parents made me keep it outside and it was geting cold out(half frozen mekp, YIEKS!).

[Zeitgeist]

Keep it in a closed bottle and it won't smell

Don't know if this has already been mentioned, but a couple of drops won't det from flame, but if it's absorbed into something a drop or two will

[Myrol]

Umm yeah lets take a look what sort of Fun i could have with it! Yes i knew it, MEKP smells extremly horrible!! For me somewhat like Nitrogendioxide, freshly cutted weed, Chlorine, fungused Garlic, fungused Onions and a little like Camphor! But hey, its no Problem, the MEKP is in a sealed container so it cant smell furthermore! MEKP with AN makes a really good "Dynamite" if yor mix the MEKP good enough with the AN-Powder! I have a Vid from 2,5kg ANMEKP whats not very impressive, because most of the AN detonates not and makes a lot of these characeristical white smoke! Poor wasting of nice Energetic material, ehh? My Idea: a 85/15ner Dynamite (by weight) AN/MEKP! 1150ml MEKP has a weight of 1322g, it has a Density of 1,15g per ccm because i weighted a 100ml Charge pure MEKP and it was exactly 115g :D For the main Charge with this shit huge Amount i will need ~7,5kg Ammoniumnitrate to make 8820g Explosive.......Fuck......this makes "Bang".....Here in Germany i have often trouble with the Peppermintprinces or "the Greens" (i hate the Cops!!), such a large Explosion must be good calculated and not "broked over the knee"! If i did it really, i will film it defenately and post my results here! But i can proof for nothing......only these sweet "virgin" lake outside the Town could be a good choice to do that! Uhhh oh, theses pooooor fishes.........Equal!

[orgasmo]

I've been wondering for awhile if the MEKP/AP combintation plus AN would be be more powerful than traditional MEKPAN. I've been thinking about making some of both to see if there's much of a difference but if anyone else has some experience with this combination some input would be nice.

[Myrol]

I would say the mix is the same way strong like normal MEKPAN! Umm Extreme Pyro (EP) says that MEKP is a strong "liquidizer" for Polyhydrocarbonplastic! Has anyone tested if the thick hard 1,5Liters Coke-cans stand against MEKP? I need for my next Underwaterexplosion such a Can filled with MEKP and want to know if i can store it in the Bottle?

[Skean Dhu]

I'm here to tell you that MEKP is very storage stable, I have a sample thats over a year old and still in liquid form. I got a partial det from some MEKPAN I made the other day, I never did figure out the secret to setting the stuff off. I think I might do some flame tests to see how it preforms.

[Myrol]

So is MEKP a solvent for Cokebottles or not? To the Flame tests: MEKP has some specials against AP: MEKP needs around 1 second with a 1300°C Bunsenflame to ignite! I tested it six times with same results! The drop of MEKP ignites only partially! After the Deflagration it stinks like Hell :p MEKP smells fucking "sluddy"

[kingspaz]

Myrol, take a small piece of plastic bottle, and put a couple of drops of MEKP on it and see if there are any signs the plastic is dissolving.

[Rosco Bodine]

It is very likely that the AN/MEKP may be sensitive to the impact of a rifle
bullet and could also be a good "reactive target" composition .

Such mixtures should work with ratios of MEKP to AN anywhere in the
range of 1 MEKP to 5 AN , and 1 MEKP to 8.5 AN , with what is optimum
for a particular mix related to the mesh size of the AN , and the density
of the wetted mixture .

The 50/50 AP/MEKP liquid peroxides mixture described above is more
powerful , higher density and sensitivity , easier to make , and would
be a good experiment for comparison in AN compositions .

A small amount , maybe 5 percent , of the liquid peroxide(s) added to a kinepak composition
should also act as a detonation catalyst to increase
the sensitivity and power output . Such mixtures , if sensitive to the
impact of a rifle bullet would be cheaper , safer , and more powerful
compositions than are the chlorate containing mixtures used as reactive
targets by the Boomershoot group in Idaho .

[Cyclo_Knight]

As I post this my MEKP is chillin in the basement. It should be ready within 24 hrs, so be prepared for some AP/MEKP Comparisons.
Since I have a deathwish, I have apprx. 1/2 Kilo. AP stored and 400 Gms. MEKP. :p

Only prob is i'll have to see if I can borrow a digital video cam from a friend. Otherwise only before-after pics :(

[chemistr1]

What happened.
Finally someone that caught my attention with a sciencetific approach to different ratios and mixtures and with a good video to prove the different effects. Who was EXACT? And were the hell has the posts gone or was I just dreaming? Cyclo I hope you sort that digicam sorted out as I would like to see the vids. I have finally managed to get a week off and am planning a couple of 200gm HMTDAN and ANMNNC charges which I should be able to cam for comparison purposes. I would even have gone for some MEKP production but I know the wife would play hell with the smell and the baby being in the house.

[Myrol]

What is the real main Peroxide in MEKP? I read something on a sciencepaper that normal MEKP is always a mix of 8!! different peroxides! Peroxidation without sulfuric Acid and a big excess H2O2 forms always monomeric MEKP BUT Peroxidation with Sulfuric Acid and not to much H2O2 (should) form mainly dimeric Methyl ethyl ketone Peroxide....Umm.........for Peroxidation of MEK I use ever 100ml MEK 150ml H2O2 (30%) and 25ml 50% Sulfuric Acid! It forms mostly 70ml MEKP and I think its mostly dimeric! The ANMEKP mixture seems to be VERY powerful but some calculations are really necessary: 4 C8H18O6 + 29 NH4NO3--> 32 CO2+ 47 H2O+ 47 H2+ 29 N2 (Carbondioxide has a higher importancy than Waterformation!). The Energieoutput per kg are 8245kj and the standardgasvolume is 1100Liters. The exact ratio for both components are 26,5g MEKP and 73,5g AN but 25/75 looks better :D For my next Underwatertest I will use this mix but the Fuse cause really problems :mad: (Underwater!)

[Cyclo_Knight]

My MEKP is all finished, however something is strange. The MEKP is a WHITE CLOUDY liquid, which I dont think is right. There was still a slight amount of undissolved Baking Soda when I neutralized the acid, but I performed 3 thourough rinses with distilled water and the color is still there. :confused:

Assuming that it IS in fact undissolved Baking Soda, does anyone know if this will affect the senitivity or perormance?. It should be fine when mixed with AP, but may throw off the straight MEKP comparison tests.

I will post a pic of the end-product on my website, when I get back from dinner.

(YEAAA! Outback Steakhouse!)
If only day-to-day life was "no rules just right"; Then I wouldn't have gotten an MIP last night....fucking pigs. :mad:

[Mendeleev]

Which baquacil do you use, there are about 150 different baquacil products, I'm guessin the one labeled "shock and oxidizer", or is it a different one?

[Haggis]

I recently experimented with MEKP synthesis using extreme cooling measures.
Instead of placing in a freezer or using an ice bath, I added dry ice directly to the reaction. I used:

30ml H2O2 ~30%
23ml MEK
10ml HCl 31%

Around a half pound of dry ice was used for cooling. The MEK and H2O2 were cooled seperately using dry ice to around 10 degrees celcius. The two were then added together, and chilled to 0 degrees celcius from the addition of dry ice. I had no standard procedeure in the amount of dry ice per minute, I just did it whenever I felt it needed it. Then the hydrochloric was added, and the resulting mixture was stirred vigorously. Dry ice was added fairly heavily at this point. The solid dry ice would get a slush like coating over it, and the rate of cooling would decrease until the slush was scraped or knocked off, exposing fresh ice. The mixture was visibly cloudy, assumably from the carbon dioxide going into solution. The beaker was swirled around, and a chunk of dry ice with a diameter of 5 centimeters was dropped in overnight. The slush coating was left on, so the cooling would be extended for hours after I left. The last temerature measurement I tool was -20 celcius.

Two days later, the reaction was checked. There was a layer of MEKP on top, and a white foggy mist on the bottom, which was presumably the trimer of MEKP. The MEKP setting on top seemed heavier then usual, as the layer between the MEKP and the spent mixture was concave, instead of the usual flat and usual that I normally get.

MEKP was neutralized, suctioned off, and set to evaporate any remaining MEK. Two days of evaporation time, a small sample was taken to test by flame. A roughly 1cmx1cm sized scrap of paper towel was dripped till saturated with MEKP. A usual batch of my MEKP in this amount will 'foosh' and produce a small fireball when touched with a flame. This amount detonated with a sharp snap, putting a ring to my ears. When ignited in a similar matter, two drops also produced a snap, albeit quieter.

The solid material was much too fine to be captured in my filter, so I was not able to test this. Anyone else, feel free to give this a try and check out any results for yourself.

[Cyclo_Knight]

I used the "Shock and Oxidizer", which contains 27% H2O2. I'm pissed because for some reason geocities is being queered out. I'm completely unable to post pics in homebuilder. :(

I press "Upload Pictire", and nothing happens. Ill have the pics up if I can manage to get all the cocks out of geocities ass :p

EDIT: Is there a way to post directly to roguesci.org? I've seen several posts with pics in thm but i don't know how to do it. Please enlighten me if possible, as this will save me lots of Java patching.

[Myrol]

When i made my first MEKP it was also visible cloudy and did not clear off within the next months.....I made some more batches MEKP and washed it with diluted Ammonia and Bicarb until all was nice neutral :) I Filtered all my MEKP over some grams Sodiumchloride (Table Salt) and let the slight milky Oil stand for one week! After this time it was perfectly translucent clear and slowly ready for some tests :D ANMEKP (ANBP- Ammonium nitrate Butanone Peroxide) seems to be a - :D :D :D - choice using it!

[Dr_Pind]

It was said that a few drops of MEKP absorbed in cotton wool or paper detonates on contact with flame. It is also said that MEKP, if properly neutralized, is storage stable for months or even years!
Now. I was wondering, could MEKP be absorbed in some cotton wool inside a plastic tube and sealed to make detonators with a much longer shelf life, than ordinary AP caps? I guess that this concept would be best for electric caps, since they could be sealed around the wires.

It would be nice if one could store caps for 6 months instead of 6 days. Any ideas?

[Rosco Bodine]

The concept that ketonic peroxides must be freed from acidity
in order to be "stabilized" is pure fiction , repeated ad infinitum .
Acidity actually stabilizes ketonic peroxides , so there is no reason
to eliminate the residual acidity which remains from the acid
which catalyzed their formation . Perhaps the myth arose from
the opposite case being true for HMTD , where hydrolysis and
decomposition of that non-ketonic peroxide is a concern which
makes neutralization sensible .

If compatability with metallic containers is a concern ,
MEKP is incompatable with metallic containers whether
it is neutralized or not , simply because of the reactivity
of the MEKP itself .

[Myrol]

If you have made a good Cap with really good AP and for example a PETN-Booster (10g) you can store it undisturbed for around two months! I made some test how fast AP form bigger crystals...the result ended up in only 1mm thick Cubes! Time WAS 2 months! So I think its no big Problem using also older AP-Caps! Have you also tried to lit a BIG AP-Crystal? I had tried it with a 3mm "Big-Dick" one......NICE Crack inside the House :p Now to my mainquestion: ************************************************** ************************************************** *****************I smell things much faster than others and hear sounds also some stronger, thats why I smell MEKP so fucking strong :( :( (Im Born with this annomaly) but my Eyes are not the bests :p poor but true...******************************************* ************************************************** ***************

------------------------------------

saying things like that could bring you alot of trouble and also unwanted attention here. don't dare to post anything like that again. - kingspaz

[kingspaz]

Rosco, thankyou for clearing up the uncertainties of peroxide neutralisation.

[Rosco Bodine]

There is a sensitive "activated" gritty crystalline form of ammonium nitrate
which develops by itself over some months of storage of the prills ,
when the prills are kept in a storage area like an unventilated tin shed
exposed to the daily heating from the sun . There is a crystal form
transition temperature for ammonium nitrate which makes the structure
of prills unstable at slightly elevated temperatures , when the temperature
is cycled above and below that transition temperature by the normal
temperature range of variation from daytime heating and night time cooling
cycles as would occur in an outdoor storage shed . Therefore , in order
to obtain a lower density , absorbent form of ammonium nitrate from prills ,
it is not necessary to grind the prills , but only to store several bags of the
prills in a hot storage shed for an extended time . The bags of loose prills
will actually swell into puffed up "pillows" of fine crystals as the prills
disintegrate due to the crystal form transitions which occur with each
days warming and cooling cycle , effectively "self-milling" the prills in the bag .

I made a liter of the 50/50 AP/MEKP mixed peroxides composition about
a year ago and have kept it stored in a glass bottle with a polyethylene closure ,
under "root cellar" cool dark storage conditions . After a year
of storage the mixture shows no sign of decomposition nor crystallization .
The dissolved AP excludes moisture from the MEKP , and the solution of
AP in MEKP is higher density and energy and sensitivity than MEKP alone .
The MEKP / AN mixture which was used in the tests for sensitivity to
a rifle bullet impact appears to be on the threshold of sensitivity to go
high order from a .22 rimfire , it just needs a little refinement to achieve
that needed sensitivity . So I would recommend trying the 50/50 AP/MEKP
mixed peroxides with the fluffy yet "gritty crystals" of AN which result from
the natural deterioration of prills as described above . That combination
of Rosco's Mixed Volcanic Peroxides "Blasting Oil" and "self-milled" AN prills
ought to do nicely for getting a .22 rimfire sensitivity for high order detonation .

Another thought , just looking at the tests , you might try a half and half mix
of the whole prills and ground AN , with 1 part of the organic peroxide
to about 6.5 parts of the "mixed aggregate" AN , to increase the sensitivity .
A stronger container such as a plastic soda bottle , or anti-freeze jug
might be helpful .

[Wes80]

Regarding the prilled AN, since I used the blasting grade intimacy shouldnt have been a problem like with FGAN, as they are capable of holding the 20% fuel, about its maximum holding capacity .. Density should have been the main variable between the prilled and powdered AN used. The main advantage is pourability and the prills non-hygroscopic nature.

I was thinking the Ideal mix would be 80% prilled AN mixed with 20% MEKP desensitised with NM. therefore having non-hygroscopic prills and safe liquid sensitiser, but this mix seems unlikely to have high velocity performance from the tests done. Unless the added NM helps step up the VOD, I think this possible but unlikely, roscos volcanic peroxide blasting oil mixed with a bit of NM .... perhaps! :D I chucked you an email regarding an incident with ye "oil" but I likely chose the wrong address, youve too many! The ANNM sensitises HNO3/NH4CH2NO2 would also have to be checked for compatability with the peroxides if NM was to be used.

If I had shot identical charges with the .22 & .25-06 we would have something to go off regarding the effect of varying activation energy, but my foresight let me down on that one!

A stronger container definately wouldnt hurt but being quickly expendable targets sourcing such a container is an issue, I used the drink .... things (view picture), minimal confinement but readily available. Im not sure what else I could find of simular size and availablility.

<center><img src="http://ww1.altlist.com/~58717/pulse.altlist.com/images/targetsize.jpg"></center>

[Rosco Bodine]

Prills alone have a lot of empty space between the spherical grains .
And the prills are optimized for their property of absorption of fuel oil ,
while retaining a low bulk density , but even explosive grade prills are
known not to be the most sensitive form of AN , just the most convenient
for blending with liquid fuels which are mechanically mixed and coated
onto the prills . If the spaces between the prills are filled with fine
crystalline AN , the fines will act as a wick for the liquid fuel carrying
the liquid to the prills where the prills then absorb the fuel as well .
The density difference between the contiuous matrix of fines , and the
prills , should enhance sensitvity over prills used alone . Also it should
result in a more sensitive composition if the mixture of prills and fines
is lightly tamped , and then the organic peroxides simply poured onto
the tamped mixture , allowed to soak into the AN by capillary action
for a couple of hours or more , instead of being mechanically mixed
with the AN . Broken prills , not crushed completely to a powder ,
mixed into the matrix can also enhance the sensitivity to impact .
The shock from a bullet benefits from some "grit" against which to
deliver its energy , creating many point impact "hot spots" where
hard particles are driven into each other , with the liquid explosive
trapped in the crevices being smashed together , like the closing
gap between the face of a hammer and the surface of an anvil .

[Hang-Man]

I have ABS cement that is 75% MEK and 25% abs resin. Will the resin just fall out of rxn or will it blow up in my face? is there a way to remove it?

[0EZ0]

Simple low temperature distillation ought to do it. Make sure that if you use plastics that they are not going to be attacked by the MEK. Have a look on the net for some figures on boiling point. Please make sure you do not use a naked flame during distillation though. MEK can create highly explosive mixtures with air.....

[orgasmo]

I was just wondering, since this is a liquid, extraction by filtration isn't really possible. If a person were dreaming of making MEKP and they were using a syringe would they use plastic tubing on the end of it since i've read that MEKP is incompatible with metals. Would a regular syringe work, or would it need to be special?

[nbk2000]

Using ABS cement would be silly, as any precipated ABS particules could act as sources of initiation, like sand in nitro. Bad...very bad...

[A-BOMB]

Well I was out and about and stopped by this home depot and found they had some MEK so I bought some and made some MEKP? last night and this morning I'm going to use a piplet get the MEKP off of the top and there are three layers of in the vessel, a 1" oily top layer, a 1/8" white layer, and a 1.5" layer of milky/oily-ish stuff, I'm guessing the top layer is the MEKP. But what about the other two?

PS: to Mega and out western PA/pittsburgh members I got the MEK out at the Home Depot on Camp Horne Road off of 279) (dont try the five finger check out lots of camera everywhere, though there is a large camera "dead zone" were the cameras can't see near the bathrooms in the rear)

[me234]

Hey, how well you reckon it would work to use Tin (II/IV) Chloride to replace the HCl used in the MEKP reaction?
Think anything more stable/powerful/just all round better might come of it?
That tetrameric AP thread got me thinking. They're very similar reactions, I presume same mechanisms, just slightly longer reagent in the reaction.

?

[chemofun]

I made some MEKP last night and I had the intention of using it to fill up empty CO2 cartridges and experiment with them; but I remembered reading that it is "incompatible" with metal containers. So I'd would like to know what would happen if I put MEKP in CO2 cartridges without actually doing it. Asking here is much safer than finding out for myself at potentially the cost of a limb. I realise that this is an old topic but better to use this one than to waste space starting a new thread.

P.S. What metal are CO2 cartridges made of anyways?

[Child-of-Bodom]

CO2 containers are made of aluminium IIRC, but I suggest strongly NOT to use them, as they produce a lot of flying metal particles upon detonation.
Let something suck up the MEKP, and detonate that.

MEKP reacts with metal, probably little exothermic. Imagine yourself what happens.

[Anthony]

All the CO2 cartirdges I've seen have been made of steel.

CoB is right, unless you specifically need a metal container, they are best avoided.

[Myrol]

Yes, Cob's are made of steel or brass but I wouldn't say it's to dangerous to use cob's for a MEKP-Detonation.....ohh, wow.....how are you able to stand the smell of MEKP??? I stopped working with it just because it SMELLS so horrible!

Cob's are not very thick walled, maximum 0,8mm metal, so I would say whilst the MEKP detonates it expands the container perhaps of 500% of the original volume until it bursts, the metal is then a lot thinner and finer as before so the shrapnel will not fly very far. Thats my expirience ;) An empty Deo-can filled with ANMEKP produced fingernail sized shrapnel. I searched two hours with my friend and found no shrapnel farer than 15m away!

It was a surface burst in a sandy area. I was very surprised to find nearly the whole can back, but I was also surprised to find them all spread around within 15m diameter.

So if you bury your "Cob" under some earth, the shrapnel should lie entirely in the Crater, some could be propelled upwards but if you're really using a metalcontainer is this no problem?

AP is compatible with metals, MEKP is a Keto-peroxide too, so I *think* it must be compatible with Cob's. Well, a lot of people have dripped some MEKP on steelplates (ignition test) and it doesn't caused problems! So thats my standpoint why I think you can do your experiment! :)

[Rosco Bodine]

AP is compatible with metals, MEKP is a Keto-peroxide too, so I *think* it must be compatible with Cob's.
Well, a lot of people have dripped some MEKP on steelplates (ignition test) and it doesn't caused problems!
So thats my standpoint why I think you can do your experiment! :)

Why do you suppose that MEKP based fiberglass catalyst is kept in
soft plastic polyethylene tubes ? The reason is instability in contact with
many other materials . That instability may not be pronounced enough
to be evident upon a brief contact test , but it will become evident with
some passing time , which is not necessarily predictable . A better experiment
would be to take a few filings from the metal container and test the reactivity
with MEKP by stirring the filings with a few drops of MEKP on a sheet of polyethlene
resting on a warm surface . If nothing is observed immediately ,
set the test mixture aside for awhile and examine it at intervals of time .
Consider the results and then reevaluate your estimation of the safety of what
you suppose is okay . MEKP and AP have similarities , but different
stabilities and compatabilities with other materials and attendant dangers .
Metallic oxides and other compounds will also catalyze the decomposiition of
MEKP . Such incompatabilities can produce quiet and steady decomposition ,
or can produce spontaneous detonation depending upon variables that have not
been established . The unknowns and unpredictability are not contributors to safety
for such a scenario where you would propose to place MEKP in contact with metals .
It really isn't safe or wise to do that , even though you may get away with it a few times ,
there is a high probability that an unplanned event is going to occur which will contradict
the theory it was safe to allow contact between MEKP and metals . It would be a shame
if the person discovering this is true were no longer around to share with us their experimental findings .

[Anthony]

I haven't seen any hard evidence that AP is compatible with all common metals. Do you have a reference?

What you say about the shrapnel not flying very far is probably correct, but what if you are not at a safe distance when it detonates? Accidents do happen where charges go off during handling, or the instant the fuse is lit. A COB sized charge in a paper casing going of within a foot, maybe two of your body (you're either carrying the charge by the fuse, or are lighting the fuse), will probably result in some bruising only. A plastic, or worse metal casing would imbed fragments into your body and/or mess up your hand. Even if your injuries aren't serious, you'll still be requiring a trip to hospital.

For MEK, why not use little sample bottles or vials? They are of similar size and have the advantage over a COB of having a sealing lid.

[Sarevok]

Posted by Anthony: "I haven't seen any hard evidence that AP is compatible with all common metals. Do you have a reference?"

PATR2700, volume 1, A44, under Acetone peroxide, Trimeric or Tri acetone Triperoxide:
Compatibility with metals. Strips of metals (Cu, Al, Zn, Sn, brass or Fe) stored with peroxide for 15 days showed no signs of corrosion: a slight corrosion was observed with lead (Ref 13). (Ref 13: H. Ficheroulle & A. Kovache, MP 31,20-21(1949).)

Personally, I have never seen aluminum or copper being corroded by AP.

EDIT: Of course it is always a good idea to protect metals from explosives by using wax or something similar. One never knows.

[bilen]

BE carefull , one drop to your eyes will make you blind.

[aRussianLieutenant]

I made some MEKP two days ago and I want to make some things about it clear.

I took 150 ml of dissolved 30% sulfric acid, 150 ml 31-33% H202 and a mixture of 50 ml acetone and 50 ml MEK. I used laboratory grade chemicals.

First important thing: despite that someone in this thread said that neutralization is not essential, I noticed that fresh, non-neutralized MEKP is not that sensitive and it won't explode when soaked into a match stick and ignited, however neutralized MEKP will.

Second important thing: The use of HCl instead of H2SO4 permits you to avoid neutralization because HCl (unlike H2SO4) evaporates from the prepared product, making it much more sensitive and ready to reach DDT faster.

Acid stabilizes MEKP and makes it much less sensitive to ignition and more storage stable.

Also some notes about reaching DDT. I took a piece of paper towel with neutralized MEKP soaked into it, put it into a plastic cap and confined with help of a glass stick. Then I ignited the end of the cap. The MEKP started to burn and gases threw the cap backwards, of course.

But after about 1.5 seconds of burning, the MEKP reached DDT and exploded with a loud sound just like a usual AP cap. Material with soaked MEKP should be confined very well in order to reach DDT faster and avoid burning the MEKP out.

I will test the possibility of using MEKP in electric detonators instead of other unsafe primaries and I will post the results here in a few weeks.

[Desmikes]

Main Points:
1. clean, waterfree MEKP can be stored safely for years.
2. observed detonation of MEKP without strong characteristic odor.

I made 150 ml of MEKP more than 3 years ago. I washed it very well with deionized distilled water, and stored it in 50ml plastic testtubes with plastic lids. Testtubes were stored submerged in water (external weight attached to the outside of the testtube kept tubes submerged and upright). Water has higher vapor pressure than MEKP and will keep MEKP safe from static discharge and fire; water also limits temperature cycling and provides some protection from noise, shrapnell etc. in case of an accidental detonation.

Every few months I used my MEKP and no degradation in its performance was noticed in both flame and shock tests. The testtube remained intact and MEKP remained cystal clear for about 3 years.
I decided to wash it bc I was starting to worry about its age. I thought that it would be safer to store MEKP without drying it and to have ~20ml layer of water on top of MEKP. About 6 months later I looked at my MEKP. On the bottom of the test tube the MEKP was mostly clear, and cloudy (white) on top, the the top of the solid plastic screw-on cap separated from its scirt (part with threads), it looked as if someonde used a neat can opener to cut all the way around. For completeness, I will add that the extra weight that I attatched to the outside of the test tube to keep it upright and submerged was a copper wire, I doubt that it was the reason MEKP turned cloudy.

The 50ml tube had 25 ml of nasty, cloudy MEKP, and about 20 ml of water. I shot the tube with a small-caliber rifle, and got an expected shockwave. I was standing at the detonation site seconds after and there was very little characteristic odor.
Anyone stored MEKP mixed with water for prolonged periods of time?

[aRussianLieutenant]

I am here again to bring you the results of testing MEKP detonators.

We used 200 ml 1:1 MEKP:AP solution. We took a 0.2 meter long PVC pipe, closed from one side with a standart lid. Then we FIRMLY filled it with many pieces of paper towel and confined them very well. We also enveloped the nichrome wire electric ignitor into one of the pieces in the middle of the pipe. Then we poured the MEKP/AP into the pipe in vertical condition, and waited 1.5 hours.

Then we closed the opened end of the pipe using a sticky tape.
Applying 9 V Samsung battery to the ends of the ignitor wires caused the pipe to explode and initiate 8 kg of plastic packed ANFO charge with an apparently full detonation (we found no ammonium nitrate around).

I am applying the photo of the crater. Sorry it doesn't have any scaling, but I can tell you that it was exactly 3.2 meters in diameter (we measured it).

http://surferus.pochta.ru/exp2post.jpg

I will do further research to see if such detonators are storage stable. If they are, then I would call the MEKP soaked into porous material with an electrical ignitor the best detonator ever invented. Easy to prepare, stable in storage, more powerful than AP, absolutely insensitive to usual impacts and sensitive to electrical ignition. :)

[Jacks Complete]

Both excellent posts. Nice one guys.

[Bugger]

Of course. It was acetone peroxide, or a similar compound like methyl ethyl ketone peroxide, made by mixing the ketone with concentrated hydrogen peroxide, mixed on board the planes, and then ignited using wires and the 9 volt batteries in radios or something similar, that the Muslim ragheads recently arrested in England were going to use to blow up 9 or 10 jumbo-jets and kill thousands of people. They were going to go onto the planes in trios, one carrying acetone or MEK, another with H2O2, and the third with a radio with a 9 v. battery.

[Desmikes]

Great Pic, aRussianLieutenant. I take it that 1:1 MEKP to AP is a weight proportion, despite the fact that you refer to MEKP by volume. 8kg is an impressive charge espesially because it looks like an undamped surface detonation. Before you try whether or not your 200ml detonators are storagable, I would suggest that you try nicrome's compatibility with your MEKP by leaving it in MEKP long enough for you to be sure that nothing crazy takes place. Perhaps a compound all-primary detonator will be safer. It can be made of a sealed plastic container (or PVC Pipe) containing the main primary charge w/o nicrome, and a small (0.5-3g) detonator that can be taped to the main primary charge minutes before the detonation. Keep up the good work.

[jagster]

I made my first synth of MEKP. I used 160ml 30% h2o2 with about 110 ml of MEK. Then added 70 or so ml of HCl in 5 segments. I placed this in refrigerator all night. It is supposed to form two layers. It is all one big cloudy mess. It looks pretty oily, though, and there might be two layers but I can't really tell. I am going to procede with deacidifying and maybe try to pour it through some NaCl?

Any advice on this would be appreciated. The temperatures were kept at refrig temperatures not freezer ones so is it possibly too high? They were probably between 5-10 C all night. During addition it was in a cold ice bath and should have been at or below 0.

[209]

So from reading the above posts It looks like I can use PVC primer stuff for the production of MEKP? Would it be more sensitive that using pure MEK or would the dye make no difference? If I made MEKP I would like to make a form of dynamite. So mixing it with AN seems to work well for you guys? Is it still fuse of nichrome wire sensitive? Thanks.

[jagster]

I havn't heard anyone mention MEKPAN is fuse sensitive. But MEKP KNO3 is several people have mentioned. Get that stump remover stuff if you can't find it. Then you can use MEKPAN for the main charge.

[209]

I got shitloads of pure KNO3. I may as well start the synth today. Is it true though that different acids have a play on the sensitivity? I have HCl and H2SO4 that I can use, anyone perfer a specific acid? I may only want to use pure MEKP not mixed with anything so it can be fuse sensitive dynamite. I guess the best way to do it would be to mix it with sawdust until it is a slurry mix and put it into a cardboard casing. Is this a good way to do it?

[jagster]

Well I guess it cleared up pretty good, washed it with bicarb solution. Its suspended really bad though I've heard people mention to add salt to the solution? Any way to get it to sink or float?

[Enkidu]

@jagster: If you are having trouble getting the layers to separate, try a centrifuge or adding a concentrated sodium chloride solution. (Any ionic solution will do.)

@the both of you: I doubt MEKP/PN is fuse sensitive if MEKP/AN isn't. Ammonium Nitrate is more sensitive than Potassium Nitrate, so why should this case be any different? All you are doing is sensitizing a nitrate.

[jagster]

OK latest update, after removing as much water as I could with salt, there is still a glob of it at bottom but other then that crystal clear mekp :).

40 ml yield. That doesn't sound like very much does it? To remind I used 160 ml 30% h202, 110 acetone with 70 or so of 30% HCl.

A drop on a piece of wood is fun it snaps and blows chunk out but sometimes it just crackles and doesn't work very good. If water is insoluable in it then can there still be water in it besides that one blob at bottom? Or is it just acetone desensitizing it? Any great ideas to get that blob out without refiltering (and losing several ml) of it through salt?

Thanks

[209]

You made MEKP using acetone:confused: :confused:. Have you ever tried making dynamite by mixing it with sawdust? From how did you alow the drop of MEKP to hit the wood that it would detonate??

* one more annoying question :). Can I use the PVC primer from home depot or will it make the completed MEKP more sensitive? What should I expect if the contents ar MEK and toluene?

[jagster]

Haha I have no idea if you can. Can only try in a small batch. I meant MEK not acetone.

How do you know what kind of plastic a container is...it has been said not to put it in polyhydrocarbon..but what kind is that. I have it in a small plastic bottle that is clear and slightly flexible but I don't know if its safe to have it in this?

[Rbick]

209,
I don't see how the addition of C7H8 (toluene) or C4H8O (MEK) would sensitize your MEKP. I'm assuming when you say "sensitive" you mean to make it fuse sensitive, as MEKP can already be easily set off by heat, shock or friction, but I don't see toluene or MEK making it any more sensitive. In the way of oxygen balance, adding either or would just move the explosive further away from oxygen balance more so than it already is.

C8H16O4 -----> 2CO2 + 6C + 8H2

Balanced:
C8H16O4 -----> 8CO2 + 8H2O - 20O

That means MEKP alone needs 20 mols of O just to balance :eek: I've never played with MEKP, but I highly doubt adding these would help it become detonatable via fuse. Maybe some smokeless powder of black powder could be used to set it off? Or even flash! That would be k3wl

[209]

I see. Thanks Rbick! I am going to make some tomorrow and see how it turns out and mix it with saw dust to make dynamite. Anyone had any bad experiences with it?

[The_Duke]

Rbick, its not all 1+1 chemistry so read and REMEMBER what I am going to tell you, it will help keep you from making many more uninformed and erroneous posts...

Rule of thumb for the formation of combustion products of CHNO explosives.

1. All Nitrogen first forms N2
2. Hydrogen is then burned to H2O
3. Any Oxygen left from formation of water is burned to CO
4. Any oxygen left from formation of CO then forms CO2
5, left over Oxygen then forms diatomic O2

Nitrogen Oxides (NOx) always form in trace amounts.

Now you know... ;)

[Enkidu]

If water is insoluable in it then can there still be water in it besides that one blob at bottom?

Yes. Use dehydrating agents to get all the water out.

Or is it just [MEK] desensitizing it?

The solubility of MEK in water is 44mL MEK / 100mL H2O or 35g MEK / 100mL H2O @ 10&deg;C with decreasing solubility corresponding to increasing temperatures. So a couple of DISTILLED water washes will get rid of any remaining MEK.

Any great ideas to get that blob out without refiltering (and losing several ml) of it through salt?

WTF.

I assume you're still in highschool, but, if you are truly interested in this hobby, it's time for you to get some textbooks on College General Chemistry and Organic Chemistry. All you need know is there.

How do you know what kind of plastic a container is...it has been said not to put it in polyhydrocarbon..but what kind is that. I have it in a small plastic bottle that is clear and slightly flexible but I don't know if its safe to have it in this?

This was JUST discussed in another thread. UTFSE.

Balanced:
C8H16O4 -----> 8CO2 + 8H2O - 20O

That means MEKP alone needs 20 mols of O just to balance

FYI, oxygen is a diatomic molecule like hydrogen and nitrogen.

[Rbick]

I am familiar with those laws and that N, H and O mols are diatomic (the modified Kistiakowsky-Wilson rules for explosives with an O balance lower than -40%), I just didn't add the part were the O becomes O2, which I don't think you really need to for O balance equations. Regardless, MEKP still requires a lot of O to balance out, am I wrong? I'm not trying to be arrogant and I appreciate you guys pointing that stuff out, but I really don't think my O balance equations are wrong. My decomp. of MEKP was wrong however...

C8H16O4 -----> 2CO2 + 6C + 8H2 IS WRONG and I apologize, using the modified rule it would be C8H16O4 -----> 4H2O + 4H2 + 8C. My bad :o. But MEKP still needs 20, or I mean 10 O2.

For an exmaple of and O balance equation, in one of my text books (The Chemistry of Explosives, J. Akhavan)they explain the O balance equation for TNT.

From pg 74 of the text
C7H5N3O6 ----> nCO2+nH2O+nN2+nO

C7H5N3O6 ----> 7CO2+2 1/2H2O+1 1/2N2+nO

C7H5N3O6 ----> 7CO2+2 1/2H2O+1 1/2N2 -10 1/2O

In order to balance the reaction formula for the combustion of TNT a negative sign is used for oxygen. This therefore indicates that TNT has insuffficient oxygen in its molecule to oxidize its reactants fully to form water and carbon dioxide.

This equation shows that 10 1/2 mols of O are needed to balance 1 mol of TNT. The O would form 51/4 O2, but they don't because they oxidize the C and H mols.

If I am wrong, please let me know, again I'm not trying to be arrogant or pretend like I know everything, 'cause I don't. I'm just defending my statement which I believe to be true.

[Enkidu]

@Rbick: Hmmmm... good points. I'm not familiar with the notation surrounding oxygen balance equations. I figured it should be O2 because the oxygen would come from the air (as toluene & friends have no extra O molecules). However, for a general equation (in which said explosive molecule could take advantage of oxygen from air or an oxidizer such as a nitrate), your equation is visually simpler and more flexible; I guess it's a matter of preference. Nice rebuttal post though. :P

[jagster]

Haha no, I'm about to graduate with an EE degree. I just like to be thorough by playing dumb for the most part and be open ears to all suggestions. I know I can pipette the water out and use the drying agents (but which ones?)...but I'll admit it I'm a bit lazy just want an answer.

I filtered using NaCl does this work good or does something else need to be used? It was very cloudy at first then became nice and clear after that filter. I didn't want to do it again because I lose a significant quantity each time due to the wetting of the NaCl. Ill look for other threads on this tonight but sometimes I don't know which terms to search for; I know all the info is out there.

I never had to take organic chemistry so that might be a good idea to get a book like that. I took basic chemistry for engineers and it was pretty much worthless. I am interested more in the energetic chemistry, obviously, so that has kind of steered me away from the standard books. I guess I need to reevaluate it. I'm also kind of waiting around because I might possibly get an explosives certification and/or mining degree yet; I might have chose the wrong career with BSEE ;).

[jagster]

Ok I searched around and still don't know a good way to extract the water. Will the salt filtering work, or even better CaCl2? I just want to make sure nothing reacts. The problem with the calcium chloride, I don't trust it heating up when it absorbs the water. But there should be very little in there..

What about silica gel beads? These don't also absorb the material you pour through them? Need something nonreactive that will only absorb water.

Epsom salt?

Will just letting it sit in the open for a couple days really dry it out? It doesn't seem that would happen if the water were in solution somehow. But then again it isn't very soluable so is it even water (vs MEK..maybe it has some in there).

I don't want to make the MEKP gods angry with me when I try to purify it.

Thanks

[209]

Soo, I am a bit confused. The best base for neutralizing MEKP is NaCl (salt)? What do you do, just pour some salt onto the pure MEKP when it is in a beaker?? Wouldn't ammonia or something like that work better for neutralizing a liquid? And then does the base get dissolved into the MEKP and stay there?

[jagster]

Salt does not neutralize it, just removes water. Salt solution will raise the density of water causing the MEKP to float to the top. This worked very well for me. Otherwise there was water everywhere in solution.

PS: Don't put a cork in a bottle with Sodium Bicarb solution and MEKP....bad mistake haha. My mind momentarily shut down. I learned the hard way by getting a nice spray of HCl/MEKP/ in my face which didn't feel so hot. I ran quickly to water hose; was mostly scared more then pain but I was lucky to not get any in eye (was wearing glasses).

I read on *other sites* that we shall not mention ;) and I guess drying it out in open air works but I wanted a faster method. If I can't find one then poured in open and a fan overnight would probably work, but it will stink up the place unless put outside. I can only do this stuff on weekends so I have very little time to wait for things to dry. Thats why I am interested in a filtering way to remove the water/MEK. I never washed my MEKP in distilled water though, only Sodium Bicarb. This could be a problem also.

[209]

What is the toxicity of MEKP?? Will MEKP screw up my chances of kids, or is it moderate comepared to other explosives?

[jagster]

lol, it won't mess you up just don't get it in your eyes or on your skin. It just burns nicely. I used some crappy veternarian gloves and it managed to soak into my thumb and burn nicely.

I wouldn't drink it though or spill it in certain places in large quantities...

I wish someone would study its VOD though...can it be used as good as AP caps? I don't trust AP....until I figure out a way to press it without being directly exposed. I was thinking a large steel pipe and have it inside there, just a simple barrier to absorb shrapnel to the body and preferrably hands if I can make it right. Then again, I will prob not use hearing protection and then get careless because I feel safe and end up blowing out my ears :).

[nbk2000]

MEKP has been used to make detonators, just UTFSE.

[jagster]

I did it hasn't been much talked about their VOD though, or how it compares to AP except a couple of random opinions.

[megalomania]

I don't think you will find much hard scientific data comparing MEKP and AP considering neither are acknowledged as commercial or military explosives. Anecdotal evidence and opinion will have to suffice unless someone is willing to do the experiments and share with The Forum.

[flashpoint]

Holy shit. Yall fuckers UTFSE.

I see people just like straight asking all about MEKP, its all in this thread in the other page.

They talk about using PVC Primer...you can get clear 'Cleaner' and its the same shit as primer, without the purple dye.

Experiment rather than ask for someone to spoon feed you. Not trying to be a douche but damn...its been said in all the other threads about MEKP.

[webuyhouses]

I have had good results making MEKP as follows:
(Start with the synth on post 1 of this thread)

Use the best h202 you can, because the reaction stops when theres a certain percentage of water in the mix. I tried it once with 3% peroxide and there was no reaction at all. The yield seems to be about 1/3 the final volume when using 35% peroxide.

Use HCL, not sulphuric, because the HCL will evaporate off of the finished product, so no rinsing is needed.

When the reaction is finished, put it all in a long neck bottle, such as a clear beer bottle. Add salt and mix well to make the MEKP float. Add cold salt water to float the MEKP up into the bottle neck, and suck it off with an eye dropper. You should wait until the bubbles settle out.

As I said, don't bother to rinse it, just let the stuff sit (uncovered) in a warm place for a few hours and all the HCL and remaining water will evap off, leaving beautiful crystal clear MEKP.

In my opinion, this stuff is not much good by itself, but mixed with AP I love it! See this post: http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showpost.php?p=91274&postcount=39

[jagster]

So do you think my yield was bad?

40 ml yield. That doesn't sound like very much does it? To remind I used 160 ml 30% H202, 110 MEK with 70 or so of 30% HCl.

I filtered it some so lost some due to absorption into different things. I don't know I didn't let it sit a full 24 hours more like 18 or so probably during the reaction. Would it make that much difference? I also didn't stir it but rather swished it around because I didn't have anything to stir with at the time.

[Enkidu]

Volume is not a good way to judge yield. Work out molar theoretical yields and weigh your product.

[209]

So I made some MEKP the other day and was satified with the yeild. It was about 50 mL and I had made about 30 mL of Nitro that morning as well.:eek:. I have a question though (I have used up all the MEKP). I made it, suctioned it off, neutralized it and added salt to percipitate off the access water but I still had to use a propane torch to get it to ignite and go "poof" like AP does.

Did I not alow enough time to evaporate the water and HCl (I let it sit in the sun for about 40 minutes) I also couldn't get the MEKP to detonate when I let a drop fall from 12 feet in the air. What is going on!? I have heard people saying that this stuff is sensitive! Nitro will readily detonate from that hight!

[jagster]

I wouldn't think it to be that sensitive. I haven't done a lot of tests though. How much reactants did you use to get 50 ml?

It will only go poof unless you soak it in certain things. I use wood mainly for testing. Just put a drop on it and if its pure it will pop like a cap gun, sometimes causing ears to ring :). Powerfull stuff.

I decided to clean my glassware with distilled water which obviously does not dissolve MEKP. I came back the next week and there were thick oily liquid beads all over it. If you do this, you will know the correct viscosity for it to be free of water. One drop of this stuff didn't sputter and snap like my main batch does, but only a sharp crack.

[209]

Reactants:

160 mL H2O2
110 mL MEK
70 mL HCl

H2O2 + MEK mixed gradually in beaker in ice bath. Cooled way down. Slowly started adding acid while watching the temp. Into the freezer for about 22 hours then I suctioned off all the MEKP of the top. Neutralized and let it sit in the sun for about 30 minutes.

Highly insencitive final product. Only reactive in large amounts to a propane torch and couldn't get it to initiate with a hammer, or a drop from 12 feet in the air.

Has anyone tried to use MEKP as a blasting cap and actually had it work :confused:. I dont see how this product could be used as a primary. Has I messed up in the synth or neutralization or maybe didn't let the acid and water evaporate enough?

[hereno]

It seems to me that people are assuming MEK is miscible in water like acetone, it is not. The layer of "MEKP" people have is likely the MEK seperating, that explains this non-explosiveness. Pure MEKP is nearly as sensitive as AP.

[Enkidu]

You are right in that MEK is not miscible with water; however, it is still very soluble. 44mL MEK / 100mL H2O or 35g MEK / 100mL H2O @ 10*C with decreasing solubility corresponding to increasing temperatures. Would a mod please edit my above post to this effect? I'd rather not leave erroneous information uncorrected.

Because of the high solubility of MEK, a water wash will remove most of the MEK from the MEKP.

The layer of "MEKP" people have is likely the MEK seperating, that explains this non-explosiveness.

From what is the MEK separating? It won't separate from either the aqueous layer (as long as its solubility is not exceeded, which it won't be in a normal MEKP recipe) or the organic layer. It may evaporate from either or both layers (due to it's high volatility), but it won't separate.

The 'non-explosiveness' is probably water in the MEKP. Just like some MEKP is left dissolved in the aqueous layer, some water will be left in the organic layer. A hygroscopic agent like magnesium sulfate will remove the traces of water.

[209]

I actually did add a sodium bi-carb water soultion to the suctioned of "MEKP" and the so called MEKP immediatly began to fizz and bubble then rose to the top creating a very distinct layer above the water which I believe is pretty pure MEKP. So what your saying is I should use a drying agent? Can I use ammonium nitrate?

So to use the drying agent on the MEKP drop a teaspoon or so amount of AN into the pure MEKP and wait 20 minutes then try and suction of the MEKP and leave the solid AN remaining in the beaker? Is this the way you guys do it?

[webuyhouses]

I believe you guys are making this too hard.

when I make MEKP (in my dreams) it separates into 2 distinct layers, and you can easily observe bubbles of it floating around like a lava lamp. The MEKP is close to the density of water, which is why salt is used to make the water more dense.

I don't think MEKP is water soluble enough to be a problem, just let the finished product sit in the sun for a while to clarify it.

By the way, the reactants and the finished product always have an unpredictable cloudiness. I think the moon phase has something to do with it. I dont worry about it, just let it sit when done. The sun helps a lot, because my last batch set overnight and was still cloudy but 2 hours in the sun and it cleared right up.

As for the sensitivity:
Its damn near impossible to set it off in a liquid form.
try soaking a piece of cotton in it, and use a hammer or flame, or a drop of sulphuric acid.
Even soaked into something, the detonation tends to be weak.

Also:
try and suction of the MEKP and leave the solid AN remaining in the beaker? Is this the way you guys do it?
MEKPAN is a decent explosive, and I think AN dissolves in MEKP. Don't waste your MEKP by trying to dry it.

[Enkidu]

I actually did add a sodium bi-carb water soultion to the suctioned of "MEKP" and the so called MEKP immediatly began to fizz and bubble ...

It fizzed and bubbled because of the escaping CO2. The sodium bicarbonate was neutralizing whatever acid you used as a catalyst.

So what your saying is I should use a drying agent? Can I use ammonium nitrate?

Yes, use a drying agent. No, don't use ammonium nitrate. Why the hell would you use ammonium nitrate? Just use the Epsom salts like you mentioned earlier.

So to use the drying agent on the MEKP drop a teaspoon or so amount of AN into the pure MEKP and wait 20 minutes then try and suction of the MEKP and leave the solid AN remaining in the beaker? Is this the way you guys do it?

Yes, that's the general idea.

The MEKP is close to the density of water, which is why salt is used to make the water more dense.

I don't think MEKP is water soluble enough to be a problem, just let the finished product sit in the sun for a while to clarify it.

No. The purpose of the brine wash is to polarize the aqueous layer even more than it already is; it has nothing to do with density (that I know of).

The problem is not that the MEKP is water soluble; it's that the water is MEKP soluble (slightly). Any trace of water left in your MEKP will desensitize it. (BTW, that's probably why you've got boring pops out of it, as you mention later in your post.)

By the way, the reactants and the finished product always have an unpredictable cloudiness.

The cloudiness is due to tiny water droplets in the organic (MEKP) layer. As they separate, the mixture will become less cloudy. A brine wash will help take care of that.

I think the moon phase has something to do with it.

I was completely unaware that the moon's phase affects my experiments. :eek: Maybe that's my problem with the PVN.

*falls over laughing*

[webuyhouses]

The purpose of the brine wash is to polarize the aqueous layer even more than it already is; it has nothing to do with density (that I know of).

I don't mean to be a dick, but please explain why my MEKP floats around like a lava lamp, then zips right to the top when the water gets salty. Thats the only reason I add salt. I don't wash the MEKP with anything.

[Enkidu]

Good question. Honestly, I've never seen the scientific reasoning behind the brine's prowess. Could it not be that the MEKP wants to be in a nonpolar liquid like itself? The more polar the liquid (an ionic solution is more polar than deionized or distilled water), the better the MEKP sticks together, and you'd have less of the lava lamp action.

That's the way I've always thought of it, and that's probably because it was explained to me in a lecture that way. Maybe you could look it up and report back with your findings. :)

[jagster]

I was curious how thick (a comparison to something? corn syrup?) is absolutly pure mekp. I have dried mine quite extensively and it seems to work pretty good. One drop on a piece of wood makes the ears ring (though, sometimes it will crackle slightly) when a flame is brought near. However, my unclean beakers had beads of it that seemed much thicker rolling around in the bottom. I wonder how much drying it truly needs. These beads were probably more like corn syrup. They never hesitate to violate your ears :)

Also is it safe to set this stuff in the sun? I wouldn't want to do that to AP or really this if it is as unstable as the forum talks about.

[DONMAN]

As far as I know there is no problem with leaving AP in the light, just as long as it doesn't get too hot... Although I don't know if this is the same case with MEKP.


Webuyhouses when you add salt, the waters density is increased therefor the less dense MEKP floats up to the top. doy

[209]

In Arthis's thread on AP I read that some had tested and used the AN/MEKP mix. How is your AN used? Is it ground or is it used in prill form? What size of cap do you use?

[rangegal]

Has anybody here ever use ammonium nitrate mixed into their ice bath to help cool it down?

It's convenient if the temperature gets too high and you need to cool it quickly, plus at the end you can boil the bath water down and collect the AN for use in other explosives as long as you didn't put anything else in the bath.

I'm sure other people do this, I've just never read about it before.

[209]

Yep. Adding AN to the ice bath is a good idea if you require a cooler icebath. With synths like NG I always use AN in the icebath (and a gallon of cold water nearby). Adding AN to an icebath in large amounts can usually stop most runaway reactions :eek:

[totenkov]

I am in the midst of an MEKP synth and I am trying out a new source of H2O2: wood stain.

I just went to check on the beaker and Wow!! the liquid has turned a very deep green murky colour. I don't like it. An amazing 100 mls of MEKP has already formed in the last 15 minutes, I dont know what the hell is going on but in my experience this is far to fast. Am I making somthing that is going to be dangerous, should I dump it, or has this happend to someone?

Any ideas?

[Rbick]

100 mls? How much are you making and why? And what the hell else is in wood stain? And why would you even use wood stain in the first place if it isn't pure of anything other than H2O2 and water? What amount and controls did you use in your synthesis? (temperature, amount of "wood stain" used) So many questions... More information is needed if you want more reliable opinions and suggestions.

And MEKP isn't green, so I don't know what you're looking at there. I would say dump it, and get a real source of H2O2, or find a way to purify it. And yes, 15 minutes is way too fast, so chances are its not MEKP. Although it could depend on the amount and conc. of catalyst used.

Or you could always extract whatever it is you think could be MEKP, dump all of it on a towel and whack it a few times with a hammer. Darwin awards anyone? :rolleyes:

[Enkidu]

I imagine his 'wood stain' has some polar compounds in it, which, of course, are not miscible with or soluble in water. So he's probably just seeing the phases separate.

I can't imagine that there's much hydrogen peroxide in the wood stain. Did you even look at the MSDS?

[Shadowmartyr]

This peroxide has me confused. I've heard of people with many types of this stuff, one being a liquid, the other being a oily solid; so what's the difference, what happens in the synth that decides which it will be?

Also, if you do a normal 2:1 AN:Peroxide mix, will the MEKP soak into the AN prills making it more or less a solid? How does the mixture store? Is there any other precautions that should be noted for this mix?


Thanks

[Masonjar Chemist]

MEKP is an oily LIQUID. If you are looking to soak it into ammonium nitrate, I would definetly go with powederd instead of prilled, it soaks in much better. Also the mix will make a "sludge" not so much solid.

[Rbick]

Yes there are precautions. Treat the mixture like you would APAN. There shouldn't be any storage of MEKPAN, they should be mixed right before use. The amount of MEKP that should be added should not make the mixture liquid, it should stay as a somewhat moldable solid.

Usually to find the right amount to AN to mix, you just figure out how much Oxygen the explosive being mixed needs to fully oxidize. This will maximize performance and give you better results. I'll throw out a little fun tutorial here to show how to find O balance with AN mixtures (I'm kinda bored). This can be used with any other explosive/AN mixture too :). To figure it out, the formula of MEKP is C4H16O4. So when it combusts, it will go to

C4H16O4 ---> 4H2O + 4C + 4H2, or something like that. Point being, there is a lot of unoxidized byproduct! So the job of AN is to provide that extra oxygen, hence it being known as an oxidizer. We know AN produces 1 O (or 1/2 O2) upon combustion.

NH4NO3 ---> 4H2O + N2 + 1/2O2

Look back at the MEKP, to fill use up the rest of the valence electrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valence_electron) (or fully oxidize) of the byproducts (being H and C, making water and carbon dioxide), we need 6 O2. So we need 12 AN to do that to make it look like:

C4H16O4 ---> 4CO2 + 8H2O

Use the super awesome mole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mole_%28unit%29) method to figure out the proper percentage. A mole of a substance is proportional to its atomic weight. Or 1 mole of x is equal to x's atomic weight, but in grams. To find a compounds atomic weight, add all the elements atomic weights. AN's atomic weight is about 80 units, so a mole of AN would be 80 grams. MEKP has an atomic weight of 128, or 1 mole would be 128g. So if we need 80g of AN 12 times to oxidize 128g of MEKP, we do this.

80 (12) + 128 = 1088

Then take 80 (12) / 1088 = .88 (100) = 88%
and 128/1088 = 12%

So the mix would be 88% AN and 12% MEKP for a fully oxidized, properly balanced charge :) Of course it won't be PERFECT, but it will increase the performance of you explosive the closer you get. For more explanation on that, check out my post on Heat of Formation in the Erythritol Tetranitrate thread in the HE section. Hope this helps.

[Shadowmartyr]

Wow, that was an awesome post Rbick! You answered my question and then some =) , I've always wondered how to calculate things like that for full oxidation of the mixture.

I've worked a little bit on chemical equations and such in my chemistry class, like balancing them and such. However, how do you know exactly how a compound breaks down, without knowing what the molecule looks like (maybe that doesn't make sense, but bear with me I'm trying to learn =) ).

Basically if I was just looking at MEKP and knew that the compound was C4H16O4, how would I figure out what it breaks down into, I do know the mass of the reactants needs to be the same as the yield although, of course thats basic chemistry.

But anyway thanks again for the great information, and I will for sure be using this in the future to calculate mixes properly for full detonation.

BE carefull , one drop to your eyes will make you blind.

Is that true? :eek::eek:

Also, judging by what people have been saying, 3% h2o2 won't work with the reaction, contrary to the synth instructions which says that lower concentrations could be used but the volume should be adjusted. I can't get my hands on anything above 3% right now so should I even bother trying this? I'd rather not waste any chemicals.

[Rbick]

Considering many explosive compounds consist of C, H, O and N, it is accepted that at some point during the decomposition, the products will be mostly carbon monoxide/dioxide, water vapor, and Nitrogen gas until they react with other elements to become more stable. For instance, a single Oxygen atom will form a co-valent bond with the nearest Oxygen atom to form O2, since this would be its most stable form, making Oxygen a diatomic element (di means two). This is not completley accurate for the entire reaction, as for example, decomp. of AP yields molecules of Ozone (O3).

Nature always trys to find a way to reach equalibrium, and in the case of elements, try to reach a noble gas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_gas) type configuration with as little "lone" electrons in their outer energy shells as possible. Carbon bonded with two oxygen yields a configuration close to that of a noble gas, being its most stable form.

As for getting it in your eyes, I don't know if you'd go blind, although I could be wrong. But it would be best to wear eye protection either way. God's gift of site is not something I would want to risk on the account of making some MEKP :p

For the Hydrogen Peroxide, just boil it down. You can reach up to about 12% with this method. I imagine 12% would work, although your yield wouldn't be extraordinary.

[The_Duke]

This peroxide has me confused. I've heard of people with many types of this stuff, one being a liquid, the other being a oily solid; so what's the difference, what happens in the synth that decides which it will be?

In a nutshell, MEKP exists as several isomers, the formation of trimeric 2-peroxybutane (solid) is more prominent in colder reaction conditions than the anhydrous dimeric 2-peroxybutane (liquid).The trimer is always formed and found disolved in the dimeric along with other isomers, this is the cause of the oily crystaline MEKP.

[Shadowmartyr]

Well I'm all ready for the synth but I have one problem. I can only get a hold of 3% H2O2. I think I heard this in the AP thread but say you have 300ml of H2O2, would it be feasible to boil it down to 1/10th its volume, in this case 30ml, and get 30%? I don't think that sounds right at all, but if anyone could clear this up and correct me if I'm wrong I'd would appreciate it.

Thanks

[JohnG]

You won't be able to boil the 3% down to 30%. The boiling point of the 3% H2O2 is only a few degrees above 100c. The best you might hope for by boiling is 10-12%, there is a post (by NBK if I recall) here somewhere when he boiled the 3% down and tested the result as around 12%.

I see you live in the USA; have you tried pool supply stores? I buy my 30% H2O2 at a pool supply chain (Leslie's), it's about $20 for a gallon. I believe it is used as an oxidizer in pools.

[Shadowmartyr]

Unfortunately there are no such stores around. But anyway, I'll search for that post. Thanks for the info.

[Masonjar Chemist]

No offense Shadowmartyr, but you should really do a bit more reading before you ask a simple question like this that has been discussed so extensively. Yes you can bout it down to one-tenth its volume; no it won’t be 10 times as concentrated. Some of the peroxide will decompose and leave you with more water. For future reference anything that is said about AP is more than likely to be true for MEKP. As for not being able to obtain better than 3% peroxide, it is a well-known fact that bleaching kits for hair may have 6-12% and that non-chlorine pool clarifires may have up to 35%.

[Shadowmartyr]

No offense Shadowmartyr, but you should really do a bit more reading before you ask a simple question like this that has been discussed so extensively.

Yes I know it has been discussed extensively, I don't always trust what others say which is why I asked for a second opinion on the matter.


Some of the peroxide will decompose and leave you with more water.

That's kind of obvious if you only have a concentration of 12%.


For future reference anything that is said about AP is more than likely to be true for MEKP.

Not really..on almost every other organic type peroxides 3% works very well, for this however it does not. And also, you should know that AP and MEKP have alot of different properties that should be taken into consideration. I shouldn't have to point those out but anyway it's besides the topic at hand.

[Masonjar Chemist]

That's kind of obvious if you only have a concentration of 12%.


I am not in this to start a flamewar, but if you already knew this, then why the hell did you ask?

I can only get a hold of 3% H2O2. I think I heard this in the AP thread but say you have 300ml of H2O2, would it be feasible to boil it down to 1/10th its volume, in this case 30ml, and get 30%?

[totenkov]

You Don't need 30% H2O2 to make MEKP.

I used simmered down 3% and wood stain from the hardware store as my source for H2O2. Wood stain comes in a two part kit its about 45-50%. One bottle peroxide and the other I haven't cared enough to find out. With higher concentrations the only difference is slightly larger yields and a faster reaction.

[Hinckleyforpresident]

You Don't need 30% H2O2 to make MEKP.

With higher concentrations the only difference is slightly larger yields and a faster reaction.

Not from what I've seen. I've made MEKP from 3%, 12%, and 35%. The only ones that produced liquid MEKP were the 12% and the 35%. The 3% has been left alone to react now for about 2 months, there is some fluffy whitish solid precipitate on the bottom. The 35% produces MEKP in a few hours, the 12% takes a night or so.

I've taken little bits of the solid MEKP out of the 3% to test it, it is between white and very light gray in color and is an oily solid. It is pretty shockingly powerful, far more so than liquid MEKP, IMO.

Note: My refrigerator is at about -15oC.

EDIT:
Here are some pictures of the solid MEKP
http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee69/Hinckleyforpresident/?action=view&current=1124072239a.jpg
http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee69/Hinckleyforpresident/?action=view&current=1124072239.jpg

[Shadowmartyr]

@I am not in this to start a flamewar, but if you already knew this, then why the hell did you ask?

Yes I know it has been discussed extensively, I don't always trust what others say which is why I asked for a second opinion on the matter.


@totenkov

I found a kit like you described today at the local ACE Hardware store. It was $10 for the pack, it is sold as a wood stain removal kit and comes with 2 liters of 50% h2o2. The other bottle is a solution of sodium hydroxide.

[Ethyl]

The 3% has been left alone to react now for about 2 months, there is some fluffy whitish solid precipitate on the bottom.

I've taken little bits of the solid MEKP out of the 3% to test it, it is between white and very light gray in color and is an oily solid. It is pretty shockingly powerful, far more so than liquid MEKP, IMO.



What ratios of reactants did you use when making MEKP with 3% H2O2?

Thank you in advance.

[totenkov]

I cannot remember the exact ratios of the reactants, as I have not made MEKP in many years. With ketone peroxides I think I would use equal proportions of peroxide and ketone. That would be 50:50. This is also using a 30% solution, so substitute with 10x as much.

With HMTD there is no reaction when using a 3% H2O2 solution, so I would use strong mineral acid to drive the reaction.

[inFinie]

I think MEKP seems to be turbid because of the NaHCO3 reaction progressing very slowly inside MEKP blobs.

After deacidifying the mixture, adding a few ml of MEK will push the floating MEKP to the bottom. (mekp.png)

What kinds of salts does MEKP form when reacted with metals? only metal oxides?

Drill a hole into a cork, small diameter just for a few drops of MEKP. Introduce flame. There is no cork.

[Rbick]

Its been a while since I've made MEKP, but if I remember correctly, the MEKP forms as the bottom layer of the liquids as it is more dense than the remaining unreacted peroxide, water, and MEK. In that picture, the bottom layer looks more like the MEKP. What quality are your reactants?

Also, I noticed that MEKP is turbid shortly after extracting it from the mixture. In most cases, I didn't bother to neutralize the MEKP and it was still turbid without introduction of bicarb. Given a few days, the MEKP became crystal clear. My guess is that it is due to trapped air bubbles introduced when extracting it with a syringe. Given time, the bubbles float to the top and disperse into the air. Adding bicarb would produce air bubbles as well. But either way, you just need to let it stand for 24 hours or so to let the bubbles settle out and get the crystal clear liquid that looks so nice.

[Ethyl]

It is strange that the MEKP is orange. Do you use pure MEK?

[inFinie]

All reagents were of high quality.
Sulfuric acid: 98%
H2O2: 30%
MEK: >99%

Unreacted mixture also contains sulfuric acid I suppose, and since MEKP's density is close to 1 g/cm^3, it floats.

My nice orange MEKP became crystal clear colorless after exposure to direct sunlight for 6 days with very little ( 1-2 ml ) of evaporation loss. And that might be the water dissolved in it.

[Rbick]

Oooh you used Sulfuric Acid. In that case, the MEKP would form on top, since SA is very dense. You could probably dilute the SA a bit so you don't have to use as much. I personally used 31% HCl and it works great, plus I didn't have to worry about the troubles that sulfuric acid often causes. Just some food for thought :cool:

[Alexires]

And this is exactly WHY all relevant information should be included in the original post. Rbick gave advice based upon what he uses and only because he didn't know that you used Sulphuric Acid he gave you wrong advice (through no fault of his own, I might clarify).

To all, if you want advice or help with something, please make sure that you include all information that you think may be relevant, no matter how slightly.

Better to have the right answer than to throw away your product, or worse, explosively remove parts of yourself.

Rbick - It might be that the turbidity is formed by air bubbles that are attached to small goblets of (in your case) Water, Hydrogen Peroxide and HCl. In my opinion, these air bubbles are more likely due to the catalytic decomposition of Hydrogen Peroxide by Sulphuric Acid than any thing introduced mechanically (such as a syringe). Or, if you are shaking it around, it sometimes takes a fair while for layers to separate out.

[Hightimes]

I plan to make a few ml soon just to test out, how much more stable/unstable is this to TATP?.
Also would 50% h202 be alright ? or would I need to dilute it ?
( sorry for my noob questions lol )

[Ethyl]

I had a problem with MEKP. I made it with 19% HCl, MEK p.a. and 30% H2O2 p.a. I mixed 20 ml of peroxide with around 20 ml of MEK and around 10 ml of HCl. The majority of MEKP formed in one minute. I let it stand for around 30 min. Then I extracted some MEKP (top layer) and soaked a piece of toilet paper with it. Strangely it only slowly burned. Them I tried to ignite a few drops of MEKP with a match. I couldn't light it. Then I mixed it with sodium nitrate in a ratio around 50:50, put it in a small plastic bottle with a hole in the cap for the sparkler and tried to ignite it with a sparkler. It only ignited and burned slowly until it extinguished itself. Strangely after 4 days of standing it started to behave normally. Does anyone know why did the MEKP behave like that?
That is very strange as I have made MEKP/AP and it behaves like it should, but pure MEKP doesn't (well it does but only after 4 days).


And as far as I know MEKP and MEKP/AP are storage stable. Are MEKP/AP/AN and MEKP/AN also storage stable?

Oh, there is one thing I would like to say about MEKP/AN. It is extremely important how the AN was prepared for it. If AN is made by recrystallization from a fertilizer, dried and then ground it wont work very well because when the AN is drying in the oven it melts in the water it contains. So when in solidifies it becomes compact and nonporous and even when ground up fine it doesn't absorb MEKP good. On the other hand if the AN is dried, ground up partially and then heated again (but not hot enough to melt), ground up a little more while hot and then finally ground when it cools it becomes much more porous and absorbs MEKP much better. You can also notice the difference between AN made with only one heating (much harder to ground, and the resulting powder looks like compact particles) and AN made with two "heatings" (much easier to ground and particles look fluffy).

[Rbick]

Then I tried to ignite a few drops of MEKP with a match. I couldn't light it.

MEKP, although a liquid, is just like any other explosive. There will still be water in between the MEKP molecules, so you need to give it time to dry. Letting the air bubbles that we talked about earlier settle out could also be important, since air bubbles leave the chance for hot spots, therefore increasing sensitivity. Although it would increase sensitivity, I think it would lower power, making air bubbles something you don't want.

And as far as I know MEKP and MEKP/AP are storage stable. Are MEKP/AP/AN and MEKP/AN also storage stable?

I recall seeing a post where a guy stored MEKP in a jar for years under water and it worked fine. I personally wouldn't recommend it, as storing sensitive explosives is never a good idea. Try not to store it more than a couple weeks. Plus everyone knows how hygroscopic AN is, so unless it is sealed, that isn't a good idea either.

Thats a good idea for the AN. Remember that with a rise in temperature, solubility also increases. There isn't a point in heating the AN to near its melting temp of 169* C. You can dry it just fine at 100* C. Leave AN in the oven at 100* for 4 hours and you'll have the driest AN ever, ever... :D

[Bert]

on the other hand if the AN is dried, ground up partially and then heated again (but not hot enough to melt), ground up a little more while hot and then finally ground when it cools it becomes much more porous and absorbs MEKP much better. You can also notice the difference between AN made with only one heating (much harder to ground, and the resulting powder looks like compact particles) and AN made with two "heatings" (much easier to ground and particles look fluffy).

AN undergoes a change in crystal structure at high temperatures- See Tenney Davis' Chemistry of Powders and Explosives on why AN based "black powder" didn't catch on as artillery propellants despite their good performance and cheapness. Essentially, cycling the AN back and forth past the transition temperature a few times causes the crystals to break up, increasing the surface area. A bad thing if you're trying to make a consistently deflagrating propellant, a good thing if you're trying to get larger amounts of liquids absorbed into the fine cracks in the crystals for HE uses.

[Alexires]

To add on to Bert's comment - There is a document on the FTP that deals with the different densities of AN after certain crystallisation processes (different temperatures).

Perhaps I am missing something, but in Rbick's earlier post
Its been a while since I've made MEKP, but if I remember correctly, the MEKP forms as the bottom layer of the liquids as it is more dense than the remaining unreacted peroxide, water, and MEK. In that picture, the bottom layer looks more like the MEKP. What quality are your reactants?
he stated that the MEKP forms on the bottom, with the left over MEK/H2O2/HCl floating on the surface. If this is indeed the case, then you are actually NOT extracting MEKP, and the solution you have is still reacting (hence you leaving it for a while and it working).

Ethyl, have you ever tried burning the other layer?

[Rbick]

Alexires; Thanks, I missed the part where he said he extracted the top layer and that he used HCl. I keep getting Infinie's and ethyl's posts mixed up.

To clear things up:

If you are using undiluted SULFURIC ACID in your MEKP synthesis, the MEKP will form on top, since SA is very dense.

If you are using HYDROCHLORIC ACID, the MEKP will form on the bottom, as it is more dense than the unreacted MEK, water, and HCl.

Ethyl; The reason it was only burning slowly was because you were trying to detonate unreacted MEK, H2O2, and HCl (make sure to read Alexire's response above). Try extracting the bottom, more dense layer and see what happens. It should detonate with an impact test even just minutes after extraction. Do an impact test first, try just a single drop and that should do the trick. Wear a gas mask, it smells like SHIT ;)

[Ethyl]

I forgot to say one thing in the previous post, sorry. At first I could see the MEKP forming on top of the reaction mixture. Then I tried to burn it and it didn't burn as fast as it should. After 4 days the MEKP sank to the bottom (only a very small amount was left on the surface). Then it worked very good.

[cpropellant]

Good day to all formites.
I am still learning,so please excuse any stupidity,mistakes made on my behalf.

I'd like to add a comment about observed sensitivity of MEKP and MEKP/AP-50%/50%.

The sensitivity of these two compounds differ a lot between shock initiation and
heat/flame initiation.

MEKP,when mixed with oak barrel wood shavings (used for smoking/flavouring meat), didn't detonate completely from flame,but it is still very shock sensitive.((as just pure MEKP tested *by throwing quite hard against wall (inside silicone tubing sealed with hot glue-gun at the ends.Crappy detcord)).

MEKP/AP on the other hand is easily initiated both way's.I always get full
detonation from whichever medium I mixed it with.It makes for useable detonator caps
in drinking straws sealed with hot glue.Just coat electric ignitor with NC.

Also,some 200 milliliter of both MEKP and MEKP/AP were put in sun for 3 day's to dry completely and then sealed in 500 milliliter normal plastic drinking bottle.
These were left in a hot summer sun for 3 months without any ill effects and still useable afterwards.
There was a partial pressure build-up in the bottle and I noticed liquid condensate
on the inside.
I don't see how this could be water vapour,maybe decomposition products?

Peroxide's were prepared by using 50%H2O2;30%HCL and lab-grade butan-1.
Temperature wasn't kept low and reaction vessel became very warm during addition of HCL.
Peroxide formed instantly and vessel was cooled to delay further evaporation of reactants.
After 24 hours product was washed using only H2O and neutralized with bicarbonate between many washings and decantations.

When left to stand the now clear peroxide sank to the bottom of vessel and was extracted.

I didn't cool the initial reaction as I wanted to observe the impact on the sensitivity and stability of formed peroxide's.
A pdf. file in this thread (link by The Duke) states that the trimeric form of MEKP decomposes to the dimeric form anyways,with up to six or seven other peroxide's forming as well.
So I didn't put much emphasis on the tetrameric form by cooling.


*Bad idea,but it was long ago and lesson learned.

[Ethyl]

I also never cool the reaction mixture when making MEKP/AP.

Also I don't neutralize it. Apparently it is not required for MEKP/AP.

[fluoroantimonic]

Yesterday (in a dream of course) I mixed roughly equal volumes of Hodgdon Longshot shotgun powder with MEKP/AP. Absolutely nothing happened. I then added about 4 times the mixture's volume of acetone. It formed a very pretty pearlescent black and silver mixture. After lengthy stirring it became mostly homogeneous and sticky. I then poured it in a thin layer onto aluminum foil. It is now drying.

I'm hoping it will evaporate the acetone quickly, but I'm afraid it will just form a dry skin on top and remain full of acetone. I'm not sure how that could be solved. A little acetone shouldn't hurt things much, just reduce sensitivity.

I think it would be easier just to absorb the MEKP/AP into powdered gunpowder. I don't know how to grind it safely though. Maybe slurried with water in a blender? And a long extension cord on it...

Also the way I synthesize my MEKP/AP is by putting a 1:1 Acetone:MEK mix and a 1:1.5 battery acid:50% H2O2 in the freezer. Once they're cold I add a little of the ketone mix to the beaker of peroxide/acid until the the temperature rises up to 5*C or so. Then I leave it in the freezer for a few more hours and repeat the process until all the ketones have been added. Then I suck it out and wash it with water and its ready to go. It gets good yields (maybe 60-70% based on ketones IIRC). I just did a batch that that has a theoretical yield of 480 grams. Have yet to measure yield. It will hopefully go into sensitizing a big load of AN and sensitizing DBSP for a booster.

EDIT: I just measure the yield of the MEKP/AP synth, 221 grams of nice clean clear MEKP/AP after washing with water twice. 46% yield, not too good, but I was in a bit of a hurry. I'm happy with it anyhow.

I also checked on my DBSP based plastic. It seems to have lost its acetone quicker than I expected. It now has a stiff rubbery consistency to it, maybe stiff enough to crack if pulled quickly. I don't know how much acetone is left because I never weighed it, but it doesn't look like much at all. If one wanted something easier to mold, a higher ratio of MEKP/AP would help. Also using straight MEKP would improve its elasticity. It seems promising for a cast primary or sensitive secondary depending on the ratio. It does present a challenge because it shrinks a lot when it loses the acetone. Not sure how to deal with that.

[Alexires]

Right. Where to start?


I am still learning,so please excuse any stupidity,mistakes made on my behalf.


If you had read the rules, you would know that we do not excuse stupidity. We don't care if you don't speak English as a native language, if you are still learning, or if you profess to be some kind of genius. Proof is in the pudding. (Also the space bar is there for a reason, it goes AFTER the comma... any punctuation for that matter).

If we can't understand what you are talking about, you will be banned. If you say something stupid repeatedly, you will be banned. This is as much for your safety as ours. Stupidity is not something you can grow/learn out of, it is a trait that you will have for life, if you have it.

In the future, leave these asinine "disclaimers" out of your posts.


It makes for useable detonator caps in drinking straws sealed with hot glue. Just coat electric ignitor with NC.

I hope the hot glue was applied well before your mixture was put in the tube. Hot glue + sensitive explosive = lack of fingers.


These were left in a hot summer sun for 3 months without any ill effects and still useable afterwards.
There was a partial pressure build-up in the bottle and I noticed liquid condensate
on the inside.
I don't see how this could be water vapour,maybe decomposition products?

It could be water that was in the atmosphere when you closed the bottle, it could be unreacted reactants (the reactant was in excess originally) or it could be decomposition products. My guess is it is just water that was left over from when you sealed it (and reaction by-product), but you could always remove a sample and test it to find out.


Peroxide's were prepared by using 50%H2O2;30%HCL and lab-grade butan-1.


Butan-1 what? Butan-1-ol? Butan-1-amine? Butan-1-ene?

It is important to use correct laboratory names so we know what you are talking about instead of having to guess. In this case, I'm assuming you were talking about Butan-2-one? I'm guessing this because, after all, this IS a thread about MEKP and MEK is Butan-2-one (Butanone).

This is your first (and last) warning. Improve your post quality in the future.

[I probably hate you]

I just wanted to add some of my knowledge of mekp with everyone I have been making this before I was a member here because it is easy and cheap. You need to keep the temp down when you are mixing it or it will vent acid like fumes (I assume by the burning and taste) horribly I learned the hard way from mixing too fast. Mixing some acetone (substituting approx 30% of the mek) IMO increases vod and density. In my syn. it usually would settle to the bottom with minimal layers elsewhere and after settling for several days would all join together in one layer (any random floating layers at different densities) Dampening not saturating wood or charcoal then allowing it to dry at least overnight seems to give the best results, I have tried to mix it with dbsp, perlite, aluminum, well you name it I was bored and tried it I think charcoal worked the best. I by no means know everything there is to know about mekp but I do have several years exp. with it. You will make your life more pleasant if you make/use it in a very well ventilated area I usually have a small fan blowing across my eyes to help with the fumes. This stuff while liquid can be stored for a long time my last batch, I just finished it, sat in its jar for over a year. I have some small explosives mixed up now if anyone would like a video I can make one and post it, they are just small crackling balls (emptied fireworks plastic containers) filled with a saw dust mekp mixture.

[totenkov]

How long do you allow the reaction to sit? With a higher concentration of HP (in the mid 30% range) It goes in the fridge for one night only, I have found this is more than enough time for the MEKP to form and float to the top.

It should be obvious that any synthesis of a primary high explosive should be carried out in proper ventilation.

[fluoroantimonic]

I have never noticed any fumes when making MEKP or MEKP/AP. If you are using HCl and allowing the reaction to warm up, that might do it, especially if HCl's solubility is reduced by the ketones. I have never needed special ventilation, and never smelled anything but the smell of MEK and MEKP later on. I never let it rise much above 5*C.

And why would MEKP+Charcoal be effective? MEKP is already very OB negative. Maybe the fine charcoal produces a secondary explosion when mixed with the surrounding air?

I usually let it sit in the freezer for a day or two after all the reactants have been mixed.

[I probably hate you]

I usually allow my reaction to sit in the fridge until I use it all up but initially it is done reacting overnight but often, I dont know why, there are several different layers of mekp I can only imaginge it is different desities from adding the AP and after it sits longer they all seem to unite sometimes it takes a week or so. I know about proper ventilation maybe I am doing something wrong but the fumes from my mekp kill my eyes or maybe it is just me. Yes I do use HCI and it does warm up a little I try to keep it as cool as possible but due to my own impatience it doesnt keep cold so that probably explains that. As for charcoal I dont know wouldnt the OB balcane be way wrong with sawdust as well , if anyone knows why it works with different substates better would they please post it. I do not know the chemistry behind why it works and would like to know. Oh year something else that is fun is to apply about 5 drops to a piece of cardboard about 1.5" dia. (like from a box of a 12 pack of pop) allow that to dry for several hours then light that from a safe distance it will crack loud enough to make your ears ring, so you might want hearing protection if you value your hearing, it turns the cardboard to a fine floating cloud of dust. One last thing about the OB balance I just though of I tried to set one of my green cased balls in an enclosed box (late night mischieft) and it did not detonate a second one with the door to the box open only a small crack partially detonated and with the door fully open I finally got a full det blowing the back of the box out, so maybe an oxidizer could be mixed in with the mixture to help the OB.
I do appologize if my posts are jumpy and poorly writen I am just not that great with communication.

[I probably hate you]

I took some photos of a detonation but I don't know exactly how to link them or set them up I apologize but I have never done this before if anyone would like to see them please explain it to me if not don't worry about it.

[FUTI]

to I probably hate you: Maybe charcoal corrects negative OB of MEKP a little since it can adsorb good amount of oxygen (air) on its surface? MEKP is something I have no experience of and if I said something stupid MODS please delete post. What quantity of charcoal is mixed to a mass unit of MEKP?

[fluoroantimonic]

My MEKP/DBSP plastic has now hardened even more, I suppose the last of the acetone is gone. It is now the consistency of a hard plastic like HDPE but not as strong. I can't tell how much MEKP/AP is still in it, there must be quite a bit, it evaporates so slowly.

I tore off a thin piece and lit it with a match, it burned quickly leaving no residue. Not as fast as MEKP soaked paper though.

Now I need to figure out what to do with it...

[Devourer]

Something just popped into my mind:

As MEKP is fuse sensitive when "soaking into things", could you make a fuse sensitive plastic explosive?

Maybe by mixing it with ETN, which is among the most sensitive secondary explosives, you could make a fuse sensitive mix..? ETN has much oxygen, so maybe we could get it OB! Or at least not far from.

When properly neutralized, both ETN and MEKP are storagable. ETN needs to be recrystallized, of course.

Maybe some chlorates, perchlorates, or Mg could be added to the mix to make it DDT, if it doesn't work with just ETN/MEKP.

I have no have no intentions to test this, but I think it was an interesting thought. So I just mentioned it to either be slaughtered, or brought to life.

[fluoroantimonic]

I already thought of this, its not a bad idea as far as I can see. I doubt it would DDT without containment though, even straight MEKAP is reluctant to DDT in the open. Some other sensitizer additive might solve that though. But really why does one need a plastic primary?

[Devourer]

Because it would have been a very cool thing to achieve making! :D

As far as I know, no one has ever made a primary plastic explosive...
But I can't see any special uses for it either. :)

So it would have been only because of curiosity

Sorry for my late respond. I've been on holiday.

[fluoroantimonic]

I have heard tell of silicone(or rubber cement) + acetone peroxide plastic primary. Doesn't seem like a smart idea though, not to mention pointless.

[Cobalt.45]

Not wanting to stray too far OT, but plasticized primarys have been discussed in the past to some fair extent.
See: http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=349

As "plastics", primaries are useful if for no other reason that they are then "self-contained", and they tend to be somewhat less sensitive.

[LegionOfBoom]

Hello,

First time poster here, been a "lurker" for some time however. I found lurking to be adequate for learning the basics, and would like to extend my gratitude to all the members of this site for keeping it professional in comparison to the "other" sites out there.

Now onto my question (yes, i've UTFSE for quite some time and could not find a direct answer to my question) -

In most of my dreams - MekpAN was always a great blasting substance, cabable of taking down any tree that stood in it's way with proper setup, and great for reducing old appliances to manageable sized pieces of scrap metal. My typical setup is any amount of MekpAN (from 75g to whatever) boosted by a 7g ETN booster, slightly tamped, set off by an electronicly controled cardboard blasting cap containing .5g of slightly tamped HMTD.

All this is great, but I'm interested in moving onto the more advanced side of HE's, I'm more into the idea of using HE's efficiently, so I can use less - to do more, I guess you could say im not really into big loud booms so much as the cutting effect, or piercing effect of HE's. Lately I've been looking to dream about the munroe effect, and the elusive wine bottle shaped charge for starters. In everything I've read here on RS.com, ANNM has been capable of producing respectable results with the wine bottle SC. The main problem with ANNM for me is that NM is a red flag item, when purchased legitimately OTC and up to this point I've been able to keep "clean" of putting my name down for anything, so I'd like to stick with MekpAN due to it's ease of manufacturing the base components.

What are the differences in estimated VOD's and brisance of MekpAN and ANNM? Can I expect to achieve similar results when using MekpAN in a wine bottle SC setup compared to ANNM? And is a 100g AN to 11ml mekp mixture correct (I've read it was, and done some simple balancing equations to figure it out)? I'm not looking to penetrate 2 inches of steel, more so just looking to dabble in shaped charges on concrete (cinder blocks, rocks) or dense wood (trees) and wondering if I will be able to achieve this with MekpAN. If this question is considered a request for spoon feeding please let me know, I was not able to find anything on using MekpAN for this.

::edit:: I realize something like ETN would be more ideal for this (and I have no problem making 100gr batches under close control) but I'm asking if I can use MekpAN and still achieve a shaped charge effect, or if anyone has used it and achieved performance using a wine bottle similar to ANNM.

[fluoroantimonic]

MEKP/AN will probably not work quite as well as good ANNM, which is seems to be superior to most other AN compositions. Then again just about any old explosive will go through concrete or wood when put in a halfway decent shaped charge. I think almost anything will work, just some much better than others. For example a good ETN charge will do probably do much better than any ANNM, 2 inches of steel is a piece of cake for a 100g! So I would recommend ETN over other things, it will work so much nicer.

Or you could make some hydrazine for Astrolite and do even better! Heh, just kidding... if you're worried about getting NM, you're sure as hell not ready to deal with anhydrous hydrazine :p.

Also I don't think NM is heavily watched, as long as you're not trying to buy 55 gallon barrels of it. Still, it's not very easy to get, the best OTC source I know of is R/C fuel that can have up to 40% NM and that can be a pain to purify without the right equipment. All in all it'd be easier just to go with ETN.

If you're really interested in shaped charges and haven't found it already, this (https://sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=10575) thread may interest you. Good luck.

PS. Another interesting AN composition is AN/NM/H2SO4, which seems to be much more powerful than ANNM. See it here (http://www.geocities.com/roguemovies5/).

[LegionOfBoom]

If you're really interested in shaped charges and haven't found it already, this (https://sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=10575) thread may interest you.

Thanks for the honost response!

I've been a member of Sciencemadness as well for a while, but haven't posted on either site (until now) because I've been able to just lurk and aquire knowledge that way.

That said, I'm familier with that thread and I've been through it a few times. I agree ETN is probably the most fail-safe way to go with an easy to make shaped charge, and I'm very comfortable with making it now and have a very good method for making 100g batches controllably.

I just figured it would be worth asking if MekpAN was suitable for achieving any shaped charge effect using a wine bottle.

***************

Use proper spelling

-Hinckleyforpresident