An interesting site about reloading bullet cartridges

[akinrog]

Hi
I found the following links on the net while searching for info regarding improvised ammo. Although the site(s) is not about improvised ammo, it provides a wealth of information on reloading, etc.
Anyway the links are :
Rocky Mountain Survival Group (http://www.rmsg.us/fire/reloadin.htm). (Origin of the links)
Reloadbench (http://www.reloadbench.com/main.html). (Actual reloading info)
Quick Reloading Reference Guide (http://www.reloadbench.com/gloss/guide.html). (A glimpse of this site).

Hope these links are useful for forumites :)

Edit: another link (http://www.reloadammo.com/).

[DimmuJesus]

Ammo reloading is an important skill for certain people to possess. If ammo, or certain types of ammo, become hard to find, reloading is what will need to be done.
However, ammo reloading is not the best way to go when ammunition is as easy to come by as it is now. With the cost of equipment and supplies, you'd break even in cost with just purchasing the ammo, minus the time spent.

[Jacks Complete]

That very much depends where you are in the world.

Some places, like the UK, have lots of laws against holding, for example, a hollowpointed bullet, even when it isn't in a round. That's right - you can go to jail for owning a certain shaped lump of lead.

Powders and primers are tricky to get without a license, too.

Of course, like so many laws, it only affects those who would use them legally, since you can re-activate a spent primer with a match head. Takes a while to fiddle and make them, but then if you are killing people, how many rounds will you need for a night out? The guys who go down the range, however, are royally fucked.

Loading your own also allows you to be more flexible than shop-bought, in what you put into the case as a powder load, and what bullet type and weight you want to use. For instance, shooting full-power 7.62mm rounds will draw a lot of attention in most places. Reduce the powder charge to 10% and it won't go supersonic, and is therefore much quieter. Conversely, you can keep going with power levels that exceed factory ammo if you know how to watch for pressure signs, and make your rounds more powerful and, for the money, more accurate.

So yes, these links are very useful.

[zaibatsu]

Jack's Complete:

Do you know how to create cases for obsolete chamberings? There is a straight pull swiss rifle often for sale in magazines such as GunMart, which is in an absolete (6.5mm calibre I think) chambering, and it seems to be the "newest" rifle you can buy without a licence. I can't remember the exact round it's chambered for, but assuming the action is safe, I should think either BP or light nc reloads could be fun.

[akinrog]

Dear Forumites,
Since I am DIY type guy, I am really curious, how the cartridge cases are made.

I mean I saw on Poor Man's James Bond series, how cartridges are pressed roughly. They start with a certain thickness of brass sheets (exact thickness of which the book does not specify) and uses special presses and precision dies to convert it into cartridges.

BTW, during pressing process, they occasionally subject the semifinished cartridges to heat treatment in order to prevent brittleness/extreme hardening. Anybody has occassionally have a book regarding the exact procedure for manufacturing cartridge cases.

Of course such a thing (i.e. manufacturing your own cartridge cases) is an extreme situation, but nobody can know what shall happen in near and distant future :(.

I mean the world may become a ruin due to a disaster devised by divinity or human beings. :(

[JoeJablomy]

6.5mm Swiss shouldn't be too hard to find, although I say that as an American who has a few spent 6.5 Swiss issue casings from the shooting range in his collection. Since it's a Mauser family round, it might not be too hard to form it from any larger Mauser casing like 7mm, 7.62x51, etc., although I can't say someone who actually reloads won't come out now and say, "No, they have the same size bases but are totally different."
--------------------
Actually, there is the difference that the rim is a bit thicker than the others; it has a .055" thick rim, whereas the other old Mausers have .045, and .308 & co. have .049. This still may not be fatal. My surplus cases are also berdan primed, although if you're desperate enough... well, you probably know about the GOW method.

As for making your own cases: deep drawing stuff is so heavy industrial that I seriously doubt there is any information available on it at all, because only companies and governments do it and they probably don't see any profit in writing books about it. On the other hand the process is spreading out into all kinds of other industries like steel pots, aluminum briefcases, etc., so there might be a textbook or handbook if you look hard enough.
There are enough small custom casing shops in America that there may be people in the know who'll talk to you about it.
There are other ways, though. They tend to be much more expensive but might not require so much capital. I seem to remember the martini-henry originally used casings where the sides were made from brass sheet soldered into a tube and onto a base, with a really ugly crimped bottleneck. In a more modern setting I've thought of spinning the body from a piece of brass or aluminum tubing and rotation welding it to a machined base.
In fact, I'd make the base so with a cupped front that extends for about 1/3 base diameter above the bottom of the powder chamber, and the only spinning operation done to the sidewall/body piece would be to neck down one end to fit the cup and further turn in that edge for welding to the base. Rotation welding might require a mandrel going through the body to hold that edge out and press it against the base, which is why I wouldn't try to spin the taper and bottleneck before this (and it would also be difficult to make a form to fit inside for forming on both ends and then remove :). The taper and bottleneck would then be made with a forming die or three as is done on commercial casings. In fact, you could probably use a die to form the base contour, too.
There are two things I would add by way of clarification:
1.I don't actually know about rotation welding. You'll need a lathe anyway to make the bases, so you should have most of the equipment anyway. Or it could be one of those really finicky processes you would have to really invest in. You might just solder the bases; worked before:)
2.People who I trust would know a lot about this stuff are very concerned with the strength/design of the base area because of course the one thing you do not want is a base seperation. Without drawings, all I can say is I would make the joint between these parts so that it faces 'backward,' i.e. with the chamber surface of ths joint flat against the bottom of the case, so that the pressure force doesn't tend to open the 'hole' in the bottom of the body tube or to otherwise move it in any direction in which it is not rigidly supported. Speaking of rigid support, it would also be necessary to ensure there is no gap between the base cup and the walls, as the pressure would force this gap to be filled, which would cause 'dilation' and strain the weld. It may be possible to fill the entire contact area with solder. Hell, if you're all about HE, it might be possible to explosively weld it, with a really small charge.

[zaibatsu]

Found the info, but it's a little different to how I remembered.

The rifles are Schimdt-Rubin Model 1889s, chambered in 7.5x53.5mm. Any suggestions or potential?

[MightyQuinn®]

Zaibatsu, Here is a link for some 6.5 x 55 Swiss ammo.

It is fairly new, Federal Ammo.

http://ammoman.com/webstore_655x55.htm

Hope this helps.

[zaibatsu]

A google search turned up some interesting info - 7.5x55mm Swiss cases can be trimmed back 1.5mm and used for this rifle. The only option in the UK would be to reload for these rifles, handily skipping the need for an FAC. Swiss rifles also have a reputation for accuracy, would seem a good choice for anyone needing to shoot over medium range.

[Jacks Complete]

Jack's Complete:

Do you know how to create cases for obsolete chamberings?

Good plan... There are a few ways.
Fire forming
Machining
Swaging


In reverse order - swaging is the way the big guys do it. Big powerful presses and lots of custom dies. I have the bits to a 5.56mm round, from the different stages of a factory tour, as the brass is hammered into the right shape over 23 (iirc) processes. Way out the question for us!
- Machining is how the big cases in small numbers are made, for things like Nitro Express 600. The upside is, you just need a lathe. The downside is, you just need a lathe. Also, 6.5mm is perhaps rather small to lathe out from a brass rod. You would also need to find some 70/30 brass rod, and most of it will become swarf!
- Fireforming is the best bet, since 6.5mm is reasonably close to other calibres. Not sure which 6.5mm cartridge you are meaning, as there are the following:
# 6.5mm Bergmann No.3 Pistol (W&M)
# 6.5mm Mannlicher Pistol M.1894 (W&M)
# 6.5mm Mondragon (Hu)
# 6.5mm x 27R (D)
# 6.5mm x 4OR (B)
# 6.5mm x 48R Sauer (B)
# 6.5mm Ronezewsky (E&B)

Edit: 7.5mm gives:
# 7.5mm x 53.5R Rubin (H)
# 7.5mm x 53.5 Rimless Rubin (H)
# 7.5mmx53 Swiss Schmidt Rubin M.1890 (H)

To fireform, what you do is find a cartridge that is close to the one you need. Try your best to get one with a near match on the base, so that you have a hope of the extractor working. Now, ensure the round (still an empty case at this stage) will chamber and the bolt will close correctly.
Next, get a bullet, soft lead preferably, to fit the case you are using. If it is too long, it isn't a problem, since you can simply ream it back to the required length before loading your round. If too short, you may have issues.

Make sure (very sure!) that the cutting back you do won't reach the web at the base of the cartridge, as that bit is too tough to fireform.

Now, load up your cartridge. Use a 100% load for the round that you would be firing if you had it, or one for the cut down cartridge, which ever is the lower.

Chamber your round so that you have a good backstop, etc. and fire it with a lanyard.

In theory, you should find that the cartridge has been blown open to fit the dimensions of the chamber! This certainly happens in most rifles, less so in pistols, due to the lower pressures. Of course, if the seal between the base of the cartridge and the face of the bolt is too slight, it might just blow the bolt of the gun out, backwards, at a rate of knots.

This is highly theoretical, of course. You would probably be best to make a cartridge to the right size in a lathe, and then fireform that. You will have to trim it back if you use full-power loads, but if you keep the load below about 85%, you will get a lot of shots per case. This is because the case won't "flow", which is essential to fireforming.

Edit 2:
Note that the case you are talking about trimming back is also technically obsolete, so you still will have fun finding it!! The Swedish Mauser rounds mentioned are (probably) totally unsuitable, and are not anything like obsolete, they are an FAC job, but very definately so unusual that you will have to get a special order - few people will have authority for that calibre, and most shops won't have it, even if you did have a slot on your ticket.

Edit 3:
http://www.swissrifles.com/ammo/ tells a few stories about the rounds. At the bottom is a very useful comparison table. Sadly, I suspect the shoulders on the rounds will be a little out, but you should be able to "tune" it with a hammer! Actually, no chance. The picture under the table shows a side-by-side comparison. You will never chamber the left round in a rifle designed for the right one! I think someone got confused saying you could just trim it!

[JoeJablomy]

I think that picture (if it's "GP11 & GP90 Side-by-side ") is comparing 7.5 and 5.6mm (5.56mm NATO equivalent) rounds. Kind of explains how the two 7.5mm rounds look so different :) It's kind of confusing how he suddenly throws that in without changing over to 5.6mm.

[HVD]

Some places, like the UK, have lots of laws against holding, for example, a hollowpointed bullet, even when it isn't in a round. That's right - you can go to jail for owning a certain shaped lump of lead.

Powders and primers are tricky to get without a license, too.



Actually, in the UK you need a firearms license to buy completed ammunition only. You can buy all reloading components without a firearms license, including all types of single and double base smokeless powder, primers, bullets etc.

If you buy from a gun shop i suppose they may still ask to see your licence if they don't know your face, but you could just come up with a convincing lie and remind them it's not the law, ie "I'm new here, i havn't brought my license because in my last gun shop they never asked for it, you don't need it you know!"

However, I've never risked it and simply purchase all i want at knock down prices online. Yes, you can have primers and powder simply mailed to your front door! Obviously don't buy too much, as you may raise some akward questions.

HVD.

[zaibatsu]

HVD:

I think you will find you're wrong. As Jack quite rightly points out, hollow-pointed bullets, or "all projectiles designed to expand" cannot be sold to someone without a special clause on their FAC.

[HVD]

HVD:

I think you will find you're wrong. As Jack quite rightly points out, hollow-pointed bullets, or "all projectiles designed to expand" cannot be sold to someone without a special clause on their FAC.

I appologise, I should have been more specific with my quote. I was referring to "Powders and Primers" only. I'm not aware of the legislation covering hollow points etc so I can't comment on that.

However, with the current state of firearms law in this country it's very easy to believe. I'm sure it's only a matter of time until they restrict the re-loading components as well.

HVD.

[Jacks Complete]

Indeed, it is one of the key parts of the new proposals from the Home Orifice. They want to put primers and powder on ticket, which is so stupid it should be criminal! Surely they know that one box of ammo keeps a criminal bankrobber in ammo for his entire life? Or do they think they have to change bullets for every robbery? Or that you can't reactivate a primer in seconds?

I would agree with having to show ID, but to list them all, that's just stupid. Don't forget, either, that the (4?) different types of primers can be used in hundreds of different rounds! The average copper can't cope with adding up the numbers of rounds!

Just another way to piss off those who already jump through the hoops... :mad:

Edit: Checked yesterday, it isn't even guidance to see the FAC when buying primers or powder. The bullet heads have to be checked for if "designed or adapted to expand". Those deadly lumps of inert lead are far worse than something that is (potentially) 90% nitroglycerine!

[tdog49]

www.beartoothbullets.com
www.accuratereloading.com

both sites have mucha info on reloading

[MMIV]

i was thinking of using one of those shop presses to press the sheet of brass that is cut into a disc. this brass disc is placed onto a steel plate that has a hole drilled into it accroding to the size of the cartridge. then the disc is centred in position of the hole and pushed in until the desired shap is obtained. Then make the dies to form the neck and spin the cart on the lathe to make the rim.

the disadvantages of this method is that you require somthing like a small workshop and access to sheet brass,which is hard to get. alternativley, you could spin a brass or steel rod on a lathe and go from there.

do you think this idea will work?

[johnn 99]

No MMIV as stated your idea will not work. It will either punch a hole through your brass sheet or put a dent in it and then rip through it. Depending on how much larger your hole is than the die.
The reason being that you have a sharp edge around your hole,and round the circumference of your rod. Both of which try to stretch and sheer the soft brass as it passes through the hole. Even if you manage to get it started it is easier for the brass to thin and rip through at the face of the rod than it is for it to compress into itself to pass through the narrow space between the edge of the hole and the side of the rod.
How ever the basic idea is probably ok to form the shape you want with a few mods.(whether you can produce usable cartridges this way is another story.)
First off find a block of steel say 2 1/2x as deep as your casing is going to be now drill a hole in it the finished size of your cartridge blank plus 2x the thickness of your brass sheet plus a couple of thou for clearance. Make the hole 2x the length of your casing with a round bottom, now go back and chamfer the first half of the hole so that you have a cone leading down into a cylinder. round the end of male die (the rod you push with) to match the bottom of the female die ( the hole in the block). Now anneal the hell out of your brass disk, oil it, center it over the female die and press it. Now you will need to extract it from the die(good luck), and flatten the bottom of the casing with a set of flat bottomed dies.
This is the method I would start playing with if I wanted to do what your after. How ever there is a lot more to it than what i've written.