Acetone Peroxide Through Ozone

[YayItGoBoom!]

I was doing a lab at school on esterfication, which got me thinking about the mechanics of AP formation. I know the double bond oxygen separates, I view the bonds like an armature swinging out, leaving a bonding site on the 2-carbon and the oxygen. At first one might think that the O-O attaches itself at this site, but then I rememberd H2O2 decomposition gives a free O radical. So the O radical formes the bridge between the carbon and oxygen I believe (just speculating from what I know about atomic properties, if anyone knows more about this process please inform me).

So then it hit me, wouldn't any molecule that releases a free O radical (read: Ozone) work? Ozone is probably one of the most interesting molecules in my mind, so reactive, so toxic :D. Unfortunately I don't have a tank of it or a generator. If you have an ozone source and would like to try this experiment, please tell me how it works out and if it's worth anything.

Simple enough setup, mix 100 mL Acetone and 5 mL conc. HCl in a beaker, and place in an ice bath. Bubble O3 through a glass tube through the solution. This should either a) produce incredible amounts of AP or b) explode when the ozone hits the organic solvent.

It's worth a shot if you don't mind a few fireballs in your lab ;-).

[ikbendirk]

Ozone. The action of a silent electric discharge on O2 produces O3 in concentrations up to 10%. Ozone gas is perceptibly blue and diamagnetic.
Pure ozone obtained bij fractional liquefaction of O2 - O3 mixtures give a deep blue, explosive liquid. The action of ultraviolet light on O2 produces traces of O3 in the upper atmosphere.

why don't you try it yourself... ;)?

[YayItGoBoom!]

why don't you try it yourself... ;)?

Oohhhhh I would :-D but unfortunately I can't get my hands on it's stuff. Other than being toxic in 50 ppm concentrations, highly corrosive, spontaneously decomposing, and one of the most powerful oxidizers known to man, it's not that bad ;-).

I'm gonna to some googling to try and find bottled O3 (it's probably a class 3 hazmat too).

Still, until then, I'm dying to know whether or not my idea works. It will either have AP literally pouring out of the beaker, or rapid oxidation of acetone :rolleyes:. A brave soul would have to get it very cold before attempting, and then a blast shield would be a good idea too. But if it works it could yield literally stupid amounts of AP (danger: k3wl hazard).

[nbk2000]

O3 spontaneously decomposes, so there's no such thing as bottled ozone.

And this line of thought is dangerously k3wL as it stands. :rolleyes:

[Hang-Man]

If you got your hands on O3 and wasted it makeing AP of all things I would hunt you down and kick you in the balls.

It's like useing nitric acid to make AN; while it may be possible, it's fuckin' stupid. ;)

[Cyclonite]

O3 isnt hard to get, ozone generators are all over the place and some are cheap enough.....

[MightyQuinn®]

Attempting to un-k3vvLify a potentially k3vvL situation with some sparky shit.....

Here are a couple of plans for making you own ozone generator in you basement......this is kiped from a dope growing site (not that there is anything wrong with that ;) )

This is a very simple set up that anyone can put together in five minutes after getting the parts. It works as well as the expensive units costing $600 or more but it costs only about $20 or so. The ones I made cost nothing it just depends on how good you are at scrounging. A good source for the transformer is a shop that repairs or installs neon signs. You can usually pick up a used one for next to zip. If you go past their dumpster you might see one for free. Keta says All Electronics has them for $20-htttp://www.allcorp.com Keta apparently put together one and he reports good results. They work great for me.

Here are the plans for #1:

First you need a neon sign or similar transformer at about 6000v. You need a small glass jar and a larger jar that will hold the smaller one.The larger jar can be glass or plastic, I have successfully used a plastic cup for the larger jar but the smaller one should be glass. Lastly you need a small amount of aluminum foil and you may need a few short pieces of wire. The transformer can be as small as 3000v but the more the better up to a point. I use 7000v and that is plenty but you can use up to 15000v.


Put a small piece of aluminum foil (about 2" sq.) inside the small jar at the bottom. Cover the outside bottom of the small jar with foil so that it covers the same area as the foil inside. You can cover the whole inside and outside of the jar, that may work better but just make sure the inner and outer foil layers do not touch or come too close. Put the smaller jar inside the larger one. Connect one high voltage lead to the foil inside and the other to the foil outside. The larger jar just insulates the whole thing. I would put the whole set up on a piece of wood or other insulator. Try not to cross the wires. The bare part of the wire must touch the foil. If the insulation on the wire makes it difficult or if the wires are too short, you may use some other wire to extend them. Be sure to keep the wires as short as possible you don't want to touch them they will give you a jolt. Turn it on, you'll hear acrackling noise and if its dark you'll see a blue glow. If theres a short you may see an arc, just turn it off and separate the conductors so that they don't short out. The ozone will come out the top so don't plug it up.



Plans #2

This one is a LONG one....including pictures.....I will clip it and post the link so you can view aformentioned pictures. :D

http://www.overgrow.com/growfaq/1544

Contributed by: jigaboo
Thanks to: jolly green giant (cannabis world)
Submitted: 08-13-2001

Parts:
· Timer. My timer came out of an industrial machine from a factory. A timer is needed to regulate the amount of ozone; ozone can be harmful to everyone and everything if the concentration becomes too high.
· Transformer. The transformer is from an old neon beer sign. I got mine from a flea market for $15. You could probably find one at a sign shop, or I see there are several on ebay ( Just type “neon transformer” under search). Mine has a voltage output of 9000 volts @ 30 milliamps.
· Pvc tube. My tube is 4" pvc (I originally wanted to use 6" but could only scrounge up this piece of 4"). The rest is made out of 3/8" plastic.
· Glass. 1/8" thick x 10" long x 3.75" glass plate. (Commercial ozone machines commonly use Pyrex tubes)
· Fan. A 120v Computer fan
· Epoxy
· 2 pieces of perforated steel (stainless is best, as o3 is corrosive)

The whole thing cost a total of $33 to build.

The main ozone-producing component are 2 pieces of expanded steel on each side of a 1/8" glass plate, epoxied it into the pvc tube, with a computer fan on one end. Wires run through a couple holes in the tube to the transformer. Naturally the bigger the element the more ozone you will put out, but if you noticed my element is small and works well. The Skunkzooka runs for only 20 seconds per half hour. Works AWESOME. At first the o3 smell was very strong, but after I got the timing figured out you can't smell o3 and you can't smell the plants.

Construction:
Continue Reading Here (http://www.overgrow.com/growfaq/1544)

[megalomania]

I don't see this line of inquiry as kewl at all. The scientific method works by hypothesizing and testing the hypothesis, and ozenating seems to be reasonable... at least in theory.

It really will only end up making hydrogen peroxide in solution since I don't think ozonolysis works on ketones directly. They do ozonolysis all the time in acetone solvents, so this is not particularly dangerous, of course they have other reagents to react with the ozone.

Hmm, I wonder if ozonolysis would be a good improvised way to make formaldehyde from ethene gas and formic acid from acetylene? I think you have to have really low temperatures for this to work.

[Marvin]

Formation of acetone peroxide will not be a radical mechanism. Id expect the first few steps to result in a simple addition of H2O2 to form (CH3)2C(OH)(OOH) in the same way ketones form gem diols in water.

[ikbendirk]

Well at least one advantage of using O3 rather than H2O2, is that the O3 forms H2O2 using the present water, meaning no additional water is added, meaning the equilibrium shifts far more to the right... I suppose...

Wouldn't just bubbeling (reasonably pure) O2 through a acetone/acid blend work? perhaps with some pressure?

I also thought about using alkalic (su-)peroxides, for the same reason as above (H2O2 will be formed, but no additional water...) but those are hard to get by too... I believe potassium peroxide can be obtained by just leaving some potassium in the open air... but potassium is a rather exotic material and I guess expensive too...

anyone knows about some 'easy-obtainable' (su-)peroxides?

[0EZ0]

Actually there is some information in Federoff that relates to the ozonization of Acetone.

Acetone, Ozonization.

According to Schroeter
(Ref 1) a product containing active O was prepared
by treating acetone with ozonized O or air.
No composition was given. Briner & Meier (Ref 2)
attempted to ozonize acetone in a gaseous form,
but instead of preparing an acetone omnide, they
obtained CO2, HCOOH & HCHO. Doevre (Ref 3)
conducted ozonization of acetone in solutions.
Schroeter (Ref 4) conducted ozonization of
acetone in the presence of organic catalysts, particularly
ether. No compounds of resulting products
were given.

Refs: l)G.Schroeter, Ger P 495,02 1(1927)
& CA 25, 1922(1931) 2)E. Briner & R. Meier,
Helv 12, 552(1929) 3) J. Doevre, BullFr
[4] 45, 140(1929) 4)G.Schroeter, GerP
557,516(1933) & CA 28, 783(1934)

According to the above, it seems that there is not a route to the acetone peroxides using the direct action of ozone on acetone. Only formic acid, formaldehyde and carbon dioxide seem to be produced. It is hardly surprising considering the immense oxidizing properties of ozone. Dilute hydrogen peroxide seems rather tame in comparison.