Nitroglycerine: Danger

[MrMagnum]

Nitroglycerine is a dangerous explosive. It is said that preparation and handling are very riskful.

Does anybody know anything about accidents with nitroglycerine in home laboratories? Does anybody know how dangerous a plastic bottle of nitroglycerine actually is? Does it really explode, when one drops a plastic bottle of i.e. 250ml from a table? And does it really explode, when the nitration temperatur exceeds 30°C?

I have already handled nitroglycerine, but I do not have enough experience and knowledge to answer these questions. I guess that the answers are very interesting to know for every pyro who prepares nitroglycerine.

[a_bab]

Once you made it, you'll know that is not THAT sensitive. You have to kick it really hard to make it go off.
On the other hand, spontaneous detonations are known, so you can't be 100% sure about the safety margin.

I'd say, that once neutralised and mlixed with alcohol it's safe for storage.
I'll post a link related to NG accidents soon.

I stated once in my (deleted) site that using a thermometer while making it is useless and dangerous because of the possibly rubbing of the newly formed NG between two glass surfaces and I was right; recently I met someone who had an accident due to the thermomether.

As about the run-off esterification reaction (because is not a nitration), I think that unless dealing with kilogram quantities there is no explosion danger. Still, hot NG is way more sensitive to shock.

Frozen NG is said to be inert to detonation, but at -10 or so; half frozen is the most sensitive.

There are lots of informations regarding the NG safety you might want to read; a good free book called Nitro Explosives is here (http://www.cwru.edu/UL/preserve/stack/NitroExplosives.html)

Also, the infamous nitro-headache is a must for very piro...

[FinnBell]

I havent made nitro very many times but the few times I did, I found that it isnt as sensitive as people have said. The whole reason for making it the first few times was purely for testing purposes so I never actually detonated a large amount. But, the Very first time I attempted, I wasnt careful at all with the temperature and it got VERY hot VERY fast and it was so hot in the beaker I couldnt touch it with my bare hands, I didnt know what to do and I panicked so I just threw in it the freezer hoping it would subside when I went back half an hour later it was still VERY hot to the touch, I was afraid of an explosion so I took it and dumped it in the yard waaay out. After that I was extremely careful with the temperature regulation and my nitrations went smoothly after that. And when I got my final yields, I played around with it and found it to be of moderate stability, but nothing like what you always hear about, like stories of random detonation and junk like that. If you are careful with it and complete neutrilize it of all acids you should be fine. I found AP to actually be more sensitive to shock than NG was.

[al93535]

Finnbell: Your observation closely agrees with mine. I have made NG 4 times now, and after neutralizing it and drying it, it was realativly insensitive. A five pound lead brick dropped from about 15 cm onto the NG absorbed into tissue resting on a steel anvil produced 3 detonations out of 5. Where as AP produced detonations 5 out of 5 at 10 cm. I am going to test HMTD soon as well. But NG when made properly is not too sensitive, and not real dangerous if handled properly. :D

[Barcy]

Just a hypothetical (as I would never do something like this :D ). How bad is the headaches related to the process and how far does this effect spread? I have read it is realy severe, but would like some opinions from other sources. I would not want my neighbours complaining about any side effects, but than again I know some people who could use a permanent migrain (he! he!). My logic is that a small quantity could make an effective weapon for harrassing an enemy, if there is not enough to blow them up. :p

[al93535]

Barcy: I have never had a headache from making nitroglycerin. I then decided to rub a dab onto my skin, and nothing. A few hours later I licked about a drop (and it is sweet, tastes good) and got a headache, but it wasn't really that bad. But I have also read that it affects different people more severly then others, though I don't know why.

[grendel23]

FinnBell,

One thing that is not always stated in nitration (or esterification) procedures is that you MUST have a container of cold water at hand to drown the nitration mix in case of a run away reaction.
This can be as simple as the cooling bath used to control the temperature of the beaker.

In the case of NG, a run away will probably not result in a detonation, unless you are really stupid and are making a shit load, but it will result in deadly NO₂. A deep breath at the wrong time can kill you.

Panic is dangerous in this hobby. Preparation is the antidote to panic. Figure out may go wrong and determine what to do if Murphy drops in for a visit. RTPB "prepare for failure" will keep you whole and alive when things go wrong, and they WILL go wrong sooner or later.

[MrMagnum]

I visited the explosives laboratory of Dynamit Nobel a few years ago. They had tiny plastic bottles (50ml) filled with pure NG and EGDN. They told me that it is too dangerous to use glass bottles.

Thanks a lot for your interesting posts!

[al93535]

They store in plastic bottles because 1) Glass is great at developing a static charge and holding it (try a glass rod and silk). And because 2) glass fragments are more dangerous if it were to explode. They are more dense, so each piece will carry more energy and they are a hell of a lot sharper. I always use a plastic PP pill bottle. Its plastic and although PP can develop a nice static charge as well, I make sure it does not rub against anything. ;)

[a_bab]

Well, in the case of a detonation of NG, the glass will be turned to powder.

[JV44]

A few hours later I licked about a drop (and it is sweet, tastes good) and got a headache, but it wasn't really that bad.

I suggest not licking nitroglycerin as it is fairly poisonous. Sobrero experimented with dogs, killing them with relatively small amounts. The headaches you get from working with explosives containing ng can be bad enough already. Rubbing a drop onto your skin may not give you any discomfort, but try cutting several thousand charges for a medium size blasting job.
I react even worse to the airborne blasting oils in explosives storage rooms. Nitroglycol is the worst, being more volatile than ng.

@barcy,

don't worry about your neighbors getting headaches from your experiments, airborne ng is really just a problem in closed rooms.

[Roy Paci]

NG has(or had) a medical usage. It is useful in some heart diseased. It can be absorbed by the skin as well. So it can be placed on heartdiseased people's chest to be absorbed by the skin and to do his work on the heart tissues.

[JV44]

NG has(or had) a medical usage. It is useful in some heart diseased. It can be absorbed by the skin as well. So it can be placed on heartdiseased people's chest to be absorbed by the skin and to do his work on the heart tissues.

It is still used as an emergency medication in case of a heart attack. A solution containing ng is sprayed underneath the tongue and quickly widens the blood vessels in the heart, allowing more bloodflow.
People prone to having heart attacks often have to carry these sprays for emergency use.

[nbk2000]

The slow absorbing of NG through the skin may have pre-conditioned you to the ingestion of it, reducing the severity of the effect.

Treat ANY explosive with care, regardless of how "sensitive" or "insensitive" it may be known to be, for careless handling of ANY explosive can be fatal.

NG, Picric acid, and even TNT, where all thought to be inert (non-explosive) materials at one time or another, till a dramatic accident proved otherwise.

[Jacks Complete]

I second that.

Being careless will, eventually, kill you in this hobby.
--
The reason you get a headache is because of changed bloodflow in the brain. NG does this by dropping your blood pressure. If you take a little too much, you will drop dead, as your BP drops too far for your brain to get sufficient oxygen, which will kill you in about 12 minutes on a warm day. You get a little longer on a cold day. You will have serious brain damage if you are revived, depending on how long after the first 3 minutes you are brought round.

You tend to get the headache the first few times. My first time (when I was a kid), it was awful. I was sure I was dying. I had no idea what it was, as the Jolly Roger's CookBook didn't bother to mention that risk. I was fine in the morning, though. Got it again a few years ago, using a high NG powder, from the fumes. Not nearly so bad, but still not fun. Now, it has no effect.

Now, zinc fumes... If you get the casting book, I suggest you don't start with brass. The headache from that was like death, only it lasted full three days...

[al93535]

Actually NG is used to treat angina, NOT a heart attack. It will have no effect is you take it for a heart attck, your better off taking an asprin.

[tom haggen]

al93535 your high dude. Nitroglycerin is definitely used for treating heart attacks.http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/actintime/aha/othermed.htm Asprin is also used though. I've managed to safely handle nitroglycerin. I must admit that out of the few different types of explosives I've made, Nitroglycerin makes me the most paranoid. Mainly because I'm not exactly positive on how dangerous impurities can be. Like a few weeks ago I had 15ml drying out. Some impurities almost formed a crystalline like ring, around the surface of my nitro. But I made small amounts of dynamite without incident.

[al93535]

Tom Haggen, you are wrong. That web site states many tratments for many illnesses. Check this out http://www.medhelp.org/general/nitrogly.htm
"Actually, patients are instructed that if angina isn't relieved by the nitroglycerin, they should seek immediate medical help, because the lack of relief may indicate that the pain is, in fact, caused by a heart attack, against which nitroglycerin has no effect whatever."
;)

[Boomer]

@ a bab, do you know what happened to the person with the thermometer accident?

I made NG for 19 years now without problems, in up to 1/4 litre batches (125ml NA + 125ml SA + 60ml G yield 108ml NG = 93% theory). Starting at –25C and stopping the addition at zero, then putting it back in the freezer for some more hours, … gives you a 30C safety margin, and you need no ice bath (only patience)!

Shock sensitivity is much lower than you would expect, you need a good smack with a hammer to set it off, equivalent to dropping the hammer (250g) from half a meter. And this is STEEL ON STEEL! AP under the same conditions requires nearly no force, perhaps a 10cm drop. I even filled little glass tubes with NG, they never detonated from throwing from a cliff, not even from hitting them with an air gun (.177).

Friction sensitivity is even lower (e.g. compared to AP) as it is a liquid. Even in a rough porcelain mortar I could not set it off without adding rust or sand. That is why I cannot believe that smooth glass-on-glass (thermometer) rubbing causes detonation. Even if he banged the beaker while stirring, this is much less stress that the hammer test. :confused:

The only nasty surprise the stuff ever gave me was when I wanted to set off 3ml in a metal tube with slow BP (with a separation between). The BP did not explode, but burned out and nothing happened. After half a minute, I had just come back, standing one step away behind a wall, listening to the hissing sound it still made … when BANG … ringing ears. It must have started boiling in the hot pipe, and then made DDT from confinement. :p

[a_bab]

Yes Boomer, that person lost a hand and an eye.

I know, as I made it several times, that is not sensitive to friction , nor to shock, but if in (very) acidic medium, and warm, I believe it's way more sensitive than in the pure state. Once purified it's safe (well, as an explosive can be). The simple idea that is capable of spontaneous detonations with apparently no reason is scary. What if this happends when you make it ? Or while storing it ?

An old method was to mix the glycerine with sulphuric acid first, and then to add the nitric acid. The result was that it needed at least 12 hours to allow the formed NG to settle, as it was finely divised in the acid mix, and that lead to lots of accidents. Sometimes, the mix simply went off.

Burning dinamite is known to be very sensitive to shock.

The media crap with the drop of NG exploding by the means of dropping is nonsense; I hit it real hard between to metal surfices before it went off. But when it did that, you know, ringing ears...

I'll post soon a collection of NG accidents; lots of conclusions can be draw.

[MrMagnum]

The collection of NG accidents would be very interesting!

[nuclearattack]

I had only a very bad experience with NG: a very strong headache!
This happened while i was extracting NG from the water with a syringe, i touched some times the water with my fingers and after 30 minutes a very strong headache started to rise. It lasted until i went to bed and this from 10:00 am! It was terrible!
Probably NG has different effects on different people. I have a low blood pressure so maybe i am very sensible to NG effects.
About using NG for heart i can say that it is only for angina attacks. I'm an ambulance driver and i see the rescue doctor of my squad using it a lot of times for angina. We have a diluted NG with water to be used by injection.
NG may save people or kill people...the double face of my preferred HE!

[nbk2000]

Perhaps there was mercury in the thermometer, forming fulminate in situ with the nitro, the fulminate crystals being crushed by the grinding of the thermometer in the vessel, causing a detonation?

[0EZ0]

It would be highly unlikely any fulminate formed during their synthesis. The formation of fulminic acid requires ethanol to be present in the solution.

The problem with saying that something is "stable" or "unstable" is that when a substance is placed under slightly varied conditions it can behave in a completely different manner. We all know we shouldn't take what we hear in the media with anything more than a grain of salt, but don't let that place a bias on your own conclusions.

[a_bab]

I ripped the NG accidents reports from the web a long time ago, and I tryed to search them without success. But I got them from my archive and guess what ? They are still online. OK, here are: NG accidents (http://www.logwell.com/tales/menu/index.html) .

Maybe I'll compile the files in a pdf.


NBK2000, the thermomether could have broken, and the glass shards cased the detonation because of the very high friction. For instance, pressing an ordinary pin very strong against a cardboard , will have as a result a pressure up to 10,000 atm on the tip of the pin. This is how the scientist can generate huge pressures (at a punctiform level). All I know is that it went off.

[pdb]

You have also to consider that when a piece of glass breaks up, a shockwave is generated within the glass, which under some circumstances can initiate NG. Of course, the glass needs to be quite thick, and so such a phenomena is not likely to occur in the case of a thermometer.

[Jetex Kid]

My understanding of nitroglycerin's instability is that it can be greatly influenced by the presence of bubbles or cold.

Tiny bubbles can concentrate force; I don't know the details, but bubbles in liquid can be associated with extremely high pressure. This was the supposed basis of "cold fusion." (The fusion didn't work, but the pressure is there.) Bubbles make nitro unpredictable. See p.42, Explosives Engineering by Cooper. When nitro does explode, intentionally or not, it begins at a bubble.

Under some conditions, between liquid and solid, nitroglycerin forms needle-like crystals which can concentrate force, and since nitro shrinks as it freezes, pressure is generated. Slushy nitro is supposed to be highly dangerous, whereas the liquid and frozen forms are not.

According to drop tests and other tests, nitro is fairly insensitive, but I'm going to avoid nitro and peroxides.

[KuruptA]

Hmm, a bab, that site (http://www.logwell.com/tales/mercury_fulminate.html) said:

Black Powder......................16 inches
TNT...............................14 inches
Ammonium Nitrate..................31 inches
PETN (pure and dry)................6 inches
RDX (pure and dry)................8 inches
50-50 Pentolite (cast boosters)...13 inches
Mercury Fulminate..................2 inches
Nitroglycerin......................1 inch

Now surely NG is less sensitive to impact than Mercury Fulminate? And I very much doubt that 2kg dropped onto NG from 1 inch will detonate it?

Who has actually done a test comparing NG with MF? Just wondering what results you got? Ive never prepared MF but from what Ive heard its relativly sensitive, i thought much more than NG?

[guerrero]

Well, I made NG serveral times some years ago.Here are my experiences: Up to the 100 ml I made it does not seem to be extremly sensitive. However I made good experiences with adding acetone to make it less sensitive and for storing it secure. Before using it as explosive you need to allow the acetone evaporation, but that is no problem at all. If the NG is well washed the stability is good. In the production process I cooled it with frozen Salt water. This method worked very well.

[KuruptA]

I know how sensitive NG is, I have made it plenty of times, but Im wondering who has actually done a fair test comparing it to MF. Eg using the same steel anvil, the same brick/heavy object etc, and the same conditions, just varying the height its dropped from, or other similar tests?

[Bugger]

Mercuric fulminate, like other covalent heavy-metal fulminates (isocyanates, derivatives of HONC) and azides (derivatives of HN3, which are isoelectronic with isocyanates), e.g. those of Pb, Ag, Cu, Cd, are MUCH more sensitive to explosion by impact than conventional organic nitro-explosives like nitroglycerine, trinitrotoluene, nitrocellulose, ammonium nitrate, tetranitromethane, or picric acid. I am not quite sure how impact causes denonation, but I would think it would have to be partly through conversion of kinetic energy to heat, and partly through static electricity discharge from friction between crystal surfaces. This is why heavy metal azides and fulminates, either pure or in combination with other explosives, are used in detonators, and in the percussion caps in bullet and shot cartridges which are impacted by the firing pins of guns.

Another point is that many organic nitro-explosives, including nitroglycerine (e.g. in dynamite) and nitrocellulose (which was once used in cine films), undergo deterioration due to auto-oxidation in storage other than at low temperatures, which can render them very dangerous to handle.

Bugger.

[KuruptA]

I know MF is more sensitive to detonation that NG. I am asking if anyone has done tests comparing the two, as Im sure that the test above must be incorrect.

Mercury Fulminate..................2 inches
Nitroglycerin......................1 inch

That is the height from which a 2kg weight was dropped to detonate the explosive 1 in 10 times.

[HyggeDK]

Mercury Fulminate..................2 inches
Nitroglycerin......................1 inch


The book "Explosivstoffe" by Josef Köhler and Rudolf Meyer lists the following data for impact sensitivity:

Mercury fulminate: 1-2 Nm
Nitroglycerin: 0,2 Nm

It actually does seem that nitroglycerin is considerably more sensitive to impact than mercury fulminate, although the impact sensitivity can very slightly for mercury fulminate (for "white" and "grey" mercury fulminate).

[Marvin]

Fulminates and isocyanates are not the same thing. iso determines where an organic compound is connected, not the order of the atoms in the group.

-CN, cyanide.
-NC, isocyanide
-OCN, cyanate,
-NCO, isocyanate.

Fulminates have the oxygen and the carbon seperated by the nitrogen.

Nitroglycerin is not particually prone to autooxidation. Bigger problems are its volatility and the tendency of blasting gelatine to go inert on storage. Gun cotton has problems if not properly purified of acid, and to do so is time consuming. (boiling for several days if you dont use the Olsen process).

Early films used celluloid. This is a low nitrated cellulose plasticised with camphor. It burns well but its not really an explosive.

The Stettbacher drop test results, mercury fulminate 4.5cm, Lead azide 9cm, NG 10-12cm. At 90C NG requires only half the drop to explode and 3 times when frozen. NG is almost a primary.

If the nitric to make MF contains any sulphate, this can produce mercury sulphate in the product making it less sensitive. Possibly this affected someones results. NG is probably more sensitive when less pure.

Impact produces detonations because it produces a shock wave. Think of it as an adiabatic heating wave through the mixture. If its strong enough it produces enough decomposition to be amplified. This effect is most noticable in explosives with air bubbles, where the bubbles compress very fast and local heating causes decomposition. cf dead pressing of primaries.

[Altroman]

The problem with quoting the sensitivity of *any* compound is that there are a myriad of variables to consider. Just look at the impact sensitivity of TNT in COPAE - each researcher obtains a different value, which is why they compare their test compound with a known standard, like TNT, in the same apparatus. Consider the mechanism of confinement (how was the NG confined during the test - likely very differently than the MF). Since most of us use raw materials of questionable pedigree, it is very possible that the impurities in his batch may differ from those in yours.

Perhaps it is time for someone to develop a simple, standardized impact tester design which people can construct themselves out of hardware store parts. This way people could compare the impact sensitivity of their compounds on the same scale (i.e. using the same type of device, same confinement, same mass, same amount of absorbent, etc.).

[NGfan]

I have tried both mercury filminate and NG, and found that the NG was more sensitive. I have heard that the opposite is true, but I cannot re-test as i have run out of mercury.

[stupid939]

NGfan, what were these tests that you subjected NG and mercury fulminate to? Hitting them with a hammer? Dropping them from different heights? Was your NG fully neutralized? I don't want to sound rude, but I just wanted to know how you came to conclusion that NG was more sensitive than mercury fulminate.

[Cindor]

Maybe the MF wasn't totally MF, maybe there was some Mercury Nitrate... so it was less sensitive than normal MF.

[knowledgehungry]

According to Urbanski's volume 2 NG explodes from a 6 cm drop of a 2 kg weight while MF explodes by a 4 cm drop of a 2 kg weight.

If the nitric that you made your Mercury Fulminate with had sulfate in it, it could have produced a sulfate desensitizing it.

[Evolutionist]

I am not shure these tests can be accurate gauge of sensativity due to the different phases of the explosives(E.G. Earlier in the thread someone stated that A.P. was compared to N.G.)

This can not be a reasonable comparison, because N.G. would have much greater shock absorbing abilities, being able to conform to the shape of whatever is striking it.

I believe a more accurate test would only be its reaction to a wave and have the explosive in an isolated system. The problem with this is how to create precise waves that can be compared to other trials

[Hinckleyforpresident]

The last time I made NG I had to use a syringe to extract it. As a result I got a pretty nasty headache. The one that I had was worse than most migraines i have had and lasted from about 8 PM to 10 AM the next day.

Caffeine helps greatly. It re-constricts the blood vessels canceling out the headache.

[totenkov]

NG headaches are without a doubt the worst however you can prevent it by extracting (and making for that matter) outside.

Don't lean over the flask. I have a miniature fume hood I put togeather in my lab using plexiglass (I got a bunch of 4x8 sheets from a friend) and used a stove fan and stove piping to blow the fumes out of my lab.

It works amazingly well and I have extracted NG under it and haven't needed to use my aspirin for a headache that I was planning on converting into ASA :D

[Hinckleyforpresident]

It works amazingly well and I have extracted NG under it and haven't needed to use my aspirin for a headache that I was planning on converting into ASA :D

Good god! Don't use aspirin for a nitro-headache! According to some medical sites it makes things a whole lot worse!

[hatal]

Nitro dilates blood-vessels, thats why they use it for cardiac-treatment. So if you have a nitro-headache (because blood-vessels are nice and wide in your brain) to take aspirin is a stupid thing to do. Why? Because aspirin is also a vasodilator (besides its pathetic painkilling effect). So in the end you took a strong vasodilator and a minor painkiller with vasodilating properties. "Not much fun in Stalingrad, no."

[nbk2000]

The one time I had a nitro-headache, I found that acetaminophen was effective.

[hatal]

Yes its also a valuble component in cutting amphetamines.;)I find diclofenac good for migraines. Strong and effective, but still just an analgesic.

Plus something worth sharing (better would be in the ecological terrorism thread). Diclofenac bearing medication kills off the vulture population in India and Pakistan. It causes renal failure after they have eaten enough from the dead bodies of those, who have been administered with the medication (both men and animals). A strange and lethal side-effect on the vulture population.

[W4RGASM]

In theory, pse would be perfect for knocking off a nitroheadache. Administration would be a bitch, though, probably need a sublingual solution.

[Roy Paci]

1)Is acetone ok to store NG? How many ml of it for one gram of NG?
sorry NBK, but wasn't able to find this information.

2)Heart stroke can be in some cases, unstable angina. Then NG as PETN can be used to dilate coronaries in order to stop ischemia and save the interested ventricule portion before getting it into necrosis.

3) Triptans and ergot derivates have been found to be the best against migrain. Up-in-the-nostrills administration is good but intramuscolus, subcutaneous or intravenous way are not to be excluded.

thanks

[Rbick]

Dude, NBK is not with us any more... :(

And yes I believe NG is safe to store with acetone, although I'm unsure of the quantities. The quantities are posted somewhere. I think something like 20% acetone 80% NG will still be explosive but more stable. A search of the NG threads should turn up what you're looking for.

Also: Its common knowledge that PETN and NG are vasodilators for heart conditions.

[totenkov]

Store it under methanol 2:1 ratio methanol to NG, I have stored it for years like this.

[Roy Paci]

Dude, NBK is not with us any more... :(


Also: Its common knowledge that PETN and NG are vasodilators for heart conditions.

My second issue was to contest someone's statement about NG/PETN not being used in heart stroke. Also, they are not used in conditions of cardiac failure. Wasn't to showoff or something I got it from studies, but I figure anybody can find it around I.net.
The person who I know that makes NG tries 30% acetone and 70% NG, percentages by weight and will let you know about its reliability.

thanks

I wanted to know if my english could obtain NBK's seal of approval, I feel sad, now.

[Rbick]

Its all good, I think he would approve :)

Does he make that mixture and use it as the charge or does he just use the acetone to store the NG and evaporate it before use? Considering NG is OB positive, acetone may serve as a good fuel.

To oxidize just the Carbon in the acetone to CO, leaving the H to become hydrogen gas, 11% acetone would be the perfect amount. Using 30% would make more sense in they way that it would probably add stability and still use the acetone for the extra oxygen liberated.

[Roy Paci]

Whoa! A kind of ANFO without AN and with Acetone in place of FO. Never tought about it. Sounds cool. Wouldn't VOD be affected negatively? Would my friend lose some VoD gaining brisance on the other hand? Do you think that 40% acetone would be better for storage? Am I talking a load of rubbish? So many question so little time, I know.
I challenge you to answer as schematically as you can. :D

thanks

tried to find out where nbk has ended up to, but got lost in thousands of post. where has he gone?

[Hinckleyforpresident]

tried to find out where nbk has ended up to, but got lost in thousands of post. where has he gone?

*Sigh*

Scroll down on the main forum page. There is a full board devoted to your question...

[Masonjar Chemist]

To oxidize just the Carbon in the acetone to CO, leaving the H to become hydrogen gas.

I am fairly sure that hydrogen is actually oxidized before carbon in most cases, so you would need...

4 C3H5(NO3)3 -> 10H2O + 12CO2 + 2N2 + O2

CH3COCH3 + 4O2 -> 3H20 + 3CO2
(I think this is right, but it is late so let me know if I slipped up)

To get complete oxidation, you need 4 moles of NG to 1 mole of acetone.
For a CO balanced equation…

4 C3H5(NO3)3 -> 10H20 + 12CO + 2N2 + 7O2

2 CH3COCH3 + 5O2 -> 6H20 + 6CO

20 moles NG would yield 35O2
14moles acetone would need 35O2

So a CO detonation would need 10 moles NG to 7 moles acetone.

I will edit the post with ml of each tomorrow when I have a bit of time.

[Roy Paci]

My friend report NG not to be shock sensitive with acetone NG:Acetone=60:40.

[Rbick]

I am fairly sure that hydrogen is actually oxidized before carbon in most cases, so you would need...

4 C3H5(NO3)3 -> 10H2O + 12CO2 + 2N2 + O2


It is generally accepted through the Kistiakowsky-Wilson rules (K-W rules) for explosives with an OB of over -40% that oxidation occurs in these steps:

1. Carbon is converted to carbon monoxide
2. If any Oxygen remains, Hydrogen is converted to water
3. If any oxygen still remains, CO is converted to Carbon Dioxide
4. All Nitrogen is converted to Nitrogen gas

In negative OB explosives of -40 or lower (eg TNT), the modified K-W rules are employed and Hydrogen is favored first before carbon. Obviously NG is OB positive, so the regular K-W rules apply.

As for the oxidation of the acetone, I'm not sure if those rules apply. The K-W rules are utilized for homogeneous explosives, but I am unsure about mixed or heterogeneous explosive mixtures. I think during combustion of hydrocarbons via atmospheric oxygen, HOO radicals form first and start the reaction. These are very unstable and quickly "break" and bond with other available molecules to form water. However, the oxidation in this particular venture would not be occurring via this mechanism (as the excess O in NG would be oxidizing the acetone), which leaves multiple possibilities. These rules are based on generalities, as not all the byproducts will be fully oxidized regardless of OB, the order in which they are oxidized will not always be exact, and a small amount of Nitrogen will become NOx. So you may be correct in your assumption, although further research couldn't hurt :)

[Ethyl]

Today I tried to make NG (again). I mixed 75 ml of H2SO4 with 50 g NH4NO3. After it cooled down to around 15 C I started to slowly add 12.5 ml of glycerin After I added all the glycerin I waited around 15 min and then diluted the mixture with water. I could see that there is some other liquid that doesn't mix with water in it but it never collected on top or at the bottom. I diluted the mixture more and separated one part of it and neutralized. Still no NG. This is the third time it happened!! Does anyone know why?

There is one possibility why it happened. Somewhere I have read that iron or lead sulfate dissolved in sulfuric acid might cause difficulties in the separation of NG from the spent acid. I used boiled down acid from a old car battery.

[Barnacles]

There is one possibility why it happened. Somewhere I have read that iron or lead sulfate dissolved in sulfuric acid might cause difficulties in the separation of NG from the spent acid. I used boiled down acid from a old car battery.

I could never bring myself to trust battery acid. It scares me that lead is/could be in there/. My fears may be unfounded, but aren't you fearful that other explosives could be formed and cause problems? i would not want some lead nitrate in my NG, or have lead anything mixed with it. I would want the least amount of contamination possible, especially with highly sensitive explosives such as NG... Maybe someone more knowledgeable than me about such things could chime in.

EDIT just curious is the AN used from coldpacks? I found out that some of the coldpacks are switching urea, and still the label says AN, or not labled at all but switches said products.

[Ethyl]

The AN was from a fertilizer that contains AN mixed with chalk. I dissolved the fertilizer in water, filtered and boiled the water away from AN and dried it in a oven.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

EDIT just curious is the AN used from coldpacks? I found out that some of the coldpacks are switching urea, and still the label says AN, or not labled at all but switches said products.

Avoid cold packs labeled "China". That's the best bet to cope with this issue. Regarding the lead issue, remember that you should be avoiding all fumes anyway and that would serve to obfuscated the transference of heavy metals.

However, boiling down electrolyte is a poor method as it simple doesn't yield a viably concentrated product, drain cleaner is worth boiling down but battery electrolyte is just too dilute to be worth the time except in a real emergency and then only in vastly larger scale.

[Bert]

battery electrolyte is just too dilute to be worth the time except in a real emergency and then only in vastly larger scale.

Battery electrolyte is 30%. Bought in 5 gallon packs, it costs about $17.00 here locally. Yes, it takes a bit of time to boil off 3+ gallons of water...

[-=HeX=-]

Bert: even boiled down and dessicated electrolyte can contain a shedload of odd impurities. Later today I shall try to boil down some and make NG. I need some NG anyways so I might as well try!

Thankfully over here the cold packs are still AN! I actually have not seen any ones containing urea but that may change.

Recently I got a awful nitro headache while preparing a NG/NM 50:50 mix. Unfortunately I took a few aspirin to quell the pain. A while later I got one of my nosebleeds that just randomly happen. After 5 minutes I remembered the constricting action of caffeine. Thank god for whoever provided that bit of data!

Remember, always take caffeine for nitro headaches! Otherwise you could bleed a lot...

Rbick: thank you a lot for the data on how oxidation occurs! You wont believe how handy that data will be!

[Rbick]

The fact that you're randomly bleeding isn't a good sign. I remember one time that my hand came into contact with the bicarb solution that was washing the NG. I had the worse headache EVER. Since then, I have always worn gloves and eye protection when working with NG. Its nasty stuff! So I would recommend gloves, especially if you randomly start bleeding.

As for NG, I save my reagent grade Sulfuric and Purified Nitrate for making it. If you have a distiller capable of being heated to 290* C, then making pure Sulfuric wouldn't be a problem. On anything else like ETN, Picric Acid, NC, ect. I use rooto drain cleaner and fertilizer grade AN. The idea of having metal impurities in NG gives me visions of having my face blown off in a accidental detonation.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

He may have got the nose bleed as a reaction to and not necessarily from.....the NG. as often happens the headache is so fucking nasty that the person reacts with hypertension....the same way some people get nosebleeds from a broken leg.

While I am in no way minimizing the toxicity of NG, it would really take a significant dose to set off a "vaso-breakdown". I have read of workers getting actually ADDICTED to NG. They go to work and start off with NG headaches. ....They get used to that over a few months and then they go to work; no headache. But when (after months of exposure) they have a weekend free of NG they start getting headaches from it's ABSENCE!

Some of these fellows were part of a study in the 1960's and the results were inconclusive as to the causation....but they didn't follow them to see what affect this had on their health over the course of time after they stopped working with NG. I think it's really nasty stuff myself. I deplore it's use in plasticizing material....could you imagine kneading that shit in your bare hands for a few minutes? My personal exposure was not too minor and the result was as bad as any migraine I've ever had...I do NOT mess with that crap in any fashion.

[plutobound]

Years (decades) ago I worked as a technician making R&D rocket propellants in pint and gallon size.

Many of the formulations were double base (NG/NC).

In handling the lacquers and cleaning the mixers, it was not uncommon to get significant amounts of NG on skin.

Yes the headaches were bad, but different people reacted differently. Some became accustomed to the material (me) and the headaches became minimal, while others became sensitized and the headaches got worse (to the point of having to transfer).

Best part was decanting NG from a 400lb container into liter bottles, adding NC and other stuff and mixing the lacquers (all while alone in a small wood structure, behind two stories of dirt berms and under video surveillance to see what you're mistake was, if you suddenly turned into red mist).

[Rbick]

I hope your company had a good insurance policy and you were paid well :D Ever have any accidents?

I remember reading about the incidences in which people became addicted to NG. I think something was mentioned about this addiction actually being fatal in some people? I'm not sure on this, has anyone heard about it?

I agree with Charles on the grounds of not using NG as a plasticizer. It is good to mix with nitro esters and such, but actually having the mix come into contact with your hand doesn't sound fun. There are many other materials that would work better for a plasticizer than NG if you're making plastique. One of the times I did use it to plasticize ETN, I kept it in a small plastic bag, even when i detonated it. I must say, I was impressed.

[-=HeX=-]

I get nosebleeds as a medical problem. Its a pain in the ass. Actually, nosebleeds are the least of my problems. I just got out of hospital.

Yesterday I blew some bits of me off with TCAP. The visco was faulty and it just blew my hand up a bit. Pictures of the hand will be uploaded soon.

Therefore dont expect much tests and results total this storm passes. However, the battery electrolyte NG was very sensitive.

[Rbick]

-=HeX=-, I'm sorry to hear about your accident. I hope you still have all of your fingers. Don't worry about doing any tests, just make sure you're ok. Did the authorities get involved?

Since you mentioned it, what test did you do with the NG to classify it as sensitive? Was it much more sensitive than NG synthesized with reagent chemicals?

This is also another thought I had today. I use the Rooto drain cleaner as my source of sulfuric acid when I'm low on reagent grade. It (Rooto) is sold at 20$ per gallon (3.7L) at the local hardware store and I have achieved excellent ETN yields with it. My question comes in with the content of the sulfuric acid. Obviously, it has a light dye, but is still quite clear. Would this contain electrolytes as the presence of electrolytes in sulfuric is only required for battery acid. I can't find a MSDS for the rooto, but I believe on the label it says 91% Sulfuric and 9% Water. If electrolytes are not added to drain cleaner, as they are not needed for this purpose, perhaps Rooto sulfuric acid would be a good choice for NG synthesis? There would be impurities regardless, such as whatever the dye is, but if there is the absence of lead sulfate, it may be safe for use.

[plutobound]

Two accidents of which I was aware (both prior to my time there).

1) A beaker was knocked off the table in a lab where about 30 lb went up. 2 fatalities

2) A forklift was lifting a 400lb container to place it on the angel buggy for transport, caught the one behind it which dropped about 6 inches as he backed up. 3 fatalities (only small chunks left).

These two incidents were told as part of safety training.

Heard stories from line workers that they used to soak sweatbands in NG over lunch to prevent headaches on returning.

Heard also that retirees had very short lifespans due to lack of vasodilatation.

These last two however are just gossip/rumor/stories. Do not know of veracity.

[-=HeX=-]

Rbick: surgery saved my fingers. The pigs went away when I said it was a fire cracker but my parents have begun disposing of my supply of chemicals and apparatus. :Mad:

I tested it with the hammer tests, drop tests and with am improvised 2kg drop apparatus. The 'lab grade' nitro was two centimeters of drop less sensitive. However my lab notebook has disappeared, probably taken by my parents. Try to filter out the dye with activated charcoal. I read that somewhere here.

[Ethyl]

Did you use acid from a old battery or new acid?

[Controlled Chaos]

Rooto was used in my dreams as is and produced wonderful results.

The H2SO4 was cooled and Ammonium Nitrate added slowly. 60ml of glycerin was added in about 30 minutes with no overheating problems at all, staying below 10C the whole time. I then took it out of the ice bath stirring for 25 minutes and added it to 1000ml of cold water. After decanting the water off and adding more and then adding a baking soda solution I poured it into a saturated salt solution for dehydration.

The salt solution was sucking the diffused yellow color out of the NG nicely. I guess this was just the dye from the Rooto. New salt solutions were allowed to sit with the NG several times for an hour or so and turned very yellow every time.

When testing the NG it would not burn very well. Which I think is normal. I put a 4cm diameter dot of NG on a coffee filter and at first tried banging it with a metal hammer on a metal plate. I could not get it to do anything from several hard whacks. After that didn't work I took the same filter with the same NG on it and sat it on concrete. I hit it twice and nothing, then the third whack and *BANG*. Ear numbing report.

[Rbick]

Ah yes, I remember the good ole high school years of trying to do chemistry in my parents basement. I had a similar incident of having my equipment taken when I detonated a 2kg charge that knocked dishes off my neighbors shelf. I hope you get your stuff back, and that your hand is ok. I'm looking forward to seeing some pictures ;)

Plutobound: Wow, I would be scared to work at a place like that, unless they were paying me well. Dipping sweatbands in NG!?

[FUTI]

NG is so sensitive that I think there was a case of factory that "went up and astray" for which investigation proved that initiation of explosion of thet factory reactor started somewhere in the pipelines in factory that distributed produced NG. Apparently even thin-film of NG can explode. That primary explosion propagated self-detonation of that thin-film of NG through pipeline and into reactor. Rest can be anticipated.