APAN as a primary for salutes and the like

[xyz]

I have recently dreamed about doing some experiments with APAN and trying to find out at what ratios it is still flame sensitive (I started a topic about this in the HE section a while ago).
I stopped doing that after finding that 50/50 APAN was still flame sensitive and left it at that, as I had plenty of each and it worked well.

Anyway, Me and a friend dreamed that we had a film cannister full of APAN which was probably about 15/75 to 20/80 APAN and would have been 30/70 tops (left over from some charges we dreamed of). Today we were about to throw this away and we decided what the hell, let's stick some in a firecracker case (polumna triangle) and see what it does.
We expected to just burn or have no effect but got quite a surprise when it exploded almost as powerfully as a triangle with straight AP.
We filled two cobs with the rest and they both worked perfectly making nice loud booms (it makes a much lower pitched sound than straight AP and almost as loud).

Our APAN was pretty dry (AN prills straight out of the plastic bag they came in, ground up, mixed and used 5mins later, hardly any water absorbed by the AN) so that could have been the cause of it's flame sensitivity.

I think that this is a great way of "cutting" AP for use in salutes as AN is cheap ($1AUS a kilo) and I personally prefer the nice boom to the sharp bang of straight AP. I would like to hear from anyone else who tries this.

P.S. The AN we used was about 75% powder and 25% prills as we couldn't be bothered grinding it all.

[ShockWave]

I wish we could buy the pure AN here too, I always have to boil out the water and let it dry which is alot of work.

In australia they don't ask questions when you will buy 50kg?
Have fun with putting a 200gr APAN charge into a big bag filled with AN and dieselfuel, and don't forget to take it on video. :D

[Mick]

i wasn't asked any questions when i bought a 50kg bag of AN.

i don't bother cleaning my AN, i just grind it up in a blender add X% of AP and mix it up. then detonate. never had a failure. i didn't bother cleaning it for APAN Putty either.

i think however for things like ANFO or ANNM you need to clean it. i've tried ANFO about 100 times now, and each time its failed. i assume this is because i always based the fuel ratio on having pure AN. i didn't occur to me untill about 6 ANFO misfires that i didn't acctually have pure AN(one of those "oh, DUH!" moments).

hopping to try ANFO very soon with an APAN booster.

[ShockWave]

100times anfos and none of them detonated? well, with annm or apan it was no problem at my Anfo, once I had 1kg AN and added 50gr diesel, with a 200gr apan detonater it worked very well, my main problem is that we can not buy pure AN in the Netherlands, which is good, otherwise I had done some really nasty things :D

[xyz]

Where did you get your AN Mick? I am surprised that it is impure as I get mine from a fertilizer distributer (fertilizer grade AN) and it seems to be about 99.5% pure (no impurities that don't dissolve in water anyway, the whole lot dissolves) and needs no dissolving or purifying. The only drawback is that the prills are solid and not porous like you need for ANFO.

BTW, It is $1AUS for 1 kilo, I haven't yet needed to buy more than a few kilos at a time. No questions asked with the AN (or acetone or H2O2 or conc. acids for that matter) BUT they will only sell KNO3 to adults as "Kids make bombs from it" :) and we have to get my friend's dad to buy our KNO3 for us (they sell AN and everything else to kids without a second thought though...)

[SATANIC]

well 50 kg bags are easy to get from farm supply places... there's usually one or two even in the cities.... when i rang for prices, they were fine wih AN, but as soon as i asked for KNO₃ they started asking lots of questions.... "what for", "where abouts" etc...

I just said I was looking for a high potassium / nitrogen soluble fertiliser for my dad, which seemed to go down ok.

where do you buy it by the kilogram tho? I have only seen 25 / 50 kg bags in farm supply.... maybe it's time i looked in hydroponics stores?

anyway, about actual APAN, 15 % AP means very cheap salutes / crackers. what sort of damage did they do? unless confined, the AN wouldn't do much explosive damage right..... so it would be safer as well...

[inferno]

Satanic - Where are you in Aus? Add me to MSN if you have it inferno_x_2001@hotmail.com.

You can order 25kg bags of KNO3, Ca(NO3)2 or AN for about $30 delivered to your door (awesome deal eh) from <a href="http://www.duralite.com.au" target="_blank">www.duralite.com.au</a> . Otherwise, for similar pricings, try <a href="http://users.bigpond.net.au/nutriflo" target="_blank">http://users.bigpond.net.au/nutriflo</a> . The latter also sells 5L jugs of 75% HNO3 for AU$62.50 excl. freight (Hazmat would take the price right up).

[0EZ0]

G'day everyone

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> You can order 25kg bags of KNO3, Ca(NO3)2 or AN for about $30 delivered to your door (awesome deal eh) from <a href="http://www.duralite.com.au" target="_blank">www.duralite.com.au</a> . Otherwise, for similar pricings, try <a href="http://users.bigpond.net.au/nutriflo" target="_blank">http://users.bigpond.net.au/nutriflo</a> . The latter also sells 5L jugs of 75% HNO3 for AU$62.50 excl. freight (Hazmat would take the price right up).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Duralite's products tend to fluctuate quite a lot, as at the moment they are not selling any nitrates on their site's online shop.
I have been aware of this source for nitrates for quite some time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> You can order 25kg bags of KNO3, Ca(NO3)2 or AN for about $30 delivered to your door (awesome deal eh) from <a href="http://www.duralite.com.au" target="_blank">www.duralite.com.au</a> . </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">@inferno: be aware that 30 bucks only buys the product. Freight/Courier/Whatever is not included in the price.

Finding most sources for chemicals should not be that hard. All i can say is that you should persist and you will find what you are looking for. Hell, something you have been after might be right under your nose. Don't wuss out and say that you can't find a source for a chemical that is widely used. Persist and you will succeed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .

I have found that when inquiring about purchase to various companies, they always tend to tell you about crappy regulations. <a href="http://www.workcover.vic.gov.au/dir090/vwa/home.nsf/pages/related+sites" target="_blank">WorkCover/WorkSafe </a> have strict guidelines on transport and storage of hazardous items. Cost of transporting your purchase to you may be quite high.
Also be aware that some insurance companies may not insure a property that stores AN. But who's to say that they will find out <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .

I know it seems i'm kicking up a fuss about all the crappy Aus. legislation :mad: . But i just want to make sure that fellow Aussie's know about these things and are aware, so they can find ways around it.

(*Trying to haul self out of hole)
Back on topic...

Using APAN in salutes with a high AP content will surely work. Another composition to look at would be ALAPAN (Al Powder-Acetone Peroxide-Ammonium Nitrate), but if your thinking of cutting price then it may not be suitable.

Although it may work, Trying to use APAN for salutes and general firework use would not be advisable. Salutes made with it are going to be quite bloody destructive. If you have the space and the time to use it go for your life. But trying to use APAN for general salute use might cause you some trouble. I goes without saying that you shouldn't use them for normal things as 'light and throw' salutes. These bastards would take an arm off :D .

So i'd say if you think it's worth the risk(ha! risk,what am i saying. Just about everyone here including me take big risks playing with Explosive things all the time) go for it. Just be careful as always :p .

[ShockWave]

maybe I missed some information about it but is it impossible that APAN is stonger then ANNM?

I think that APAN is very strong, much stronger then ANNM.

Test after test after test, APAN seems to have more power.

TNT has not enough oxygen and Ammonium Nitrate has too much, then there is the mix of these too which is called ammatol, (correct me if I'm wrong)

Is it possible that AP has not enough oxygen or something different or too much of something or maybe the AN !? so that the 2 together makes it stronger ?

[NERV]

Yes AP dose have a negitive oxygen balence. Mixing with AN will boost the power, but I dont think it would give such a boost that it would be more powerful than ANNM. I have heard from many diffrent sorces that ANNM was the most powerful AN explosive (althogh I still think that explosives like AN/MNT are more powerful). Of corse I could be wrong mabey it is more powerful than ANNM.

[edit] spelling

<small>[ December 12, 2002, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: NERV ]</small>

[Anthony]

Look at the VoD of the components of APAN - AP approx 4500m/s AN approx 4000m/s. It's unlikely that the mixture is going to have a VoD much above either one of those, and I'm guessing it's somehwhere in the middle.

ANNM on the other hand had a VoD - under the correct circumstances - of over 7000m/s, and it'd not like it's going to lack gas volume with AN in there.

[xyz]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Salutes made with it are going to be quite bloody destructive. If you have the space and the time to use it go for your life. But trying to use APAN for general salute use might cause you some trouble. I goes without saying that you shouldn't use them for normal things as 'light and throw' salutes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">In my opinion salutes are much more fun when they are "quite bloody destructive" as me and some other friends (also pyros) have had some interesting dreams involving salutes, flowerpots, trees, plants, fenceposts, buckets, and oh I almost forgot... that signpost where 20g APAN was dropped down the pole... :D .