Whats the best way to grind up aluminum? [Archive] - The Explosives and Weapons Forum

SafetyLast

January 22nd, 2001, 04:41 PM

I use an electric motor powered grinding wheel like one of these http://www.northerntool.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=17017&prmenbr=6970
except without a sheild.
I take a piece of constuction paper and put it under the grinding wheel to collect the powder. I use old soda cans and grind the bottoms off, the Al powder is about a 400-500 mesh dust that lights easily when
an oxidizer is added
and burns with a blinding white light.

Agent Blak

January 22nd, 2001, 05:15 PM

So how do you get the grit out of the Al powder after?

------------------
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The First Shall Become last"
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Agent Blak

January 22nd, 2001, 05:18 PM

Could this be done with Al Rods?
what about Mg Rods(or would it be to dangerous)?

------------------
A wise man once said:
"... As He Waits For The Time When The Last Become First And,
The First Shall Become last"
--RATM

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

Anthony

January 22nd, 2001, 07:07 PM

There is a hazard with grinding Mg as the fine dust is easily ignited. You wouldn't have problems as long as you took precautions against an ignition, like heavy gloves (should be worn for grinding anyway) and clear away the collected Mg powder so there is never too much maying around.

January 22nd, 2001, 07:25 PM

Remember that the particle shape is extremely important for Al flash mixes. I have some 300 mesh Al for mixing with fibreglass resin, and it simply won't burn quickly enough in KCLO3/CKLO4 flash comps. AFAIK, the 400+ mesh flake Al is what is required. I think the milling of Al foil will produce this type.

I also remember someone recommending heating the foil with a blow torch (a flame anyway) to make it brittle before grinding it.

I don't see why Mg powder couldn't be made this way. However, you should run the mill well away from anything that could be damaged/killed by an explosion. At this small particle size, the powder will become airborne in the mill and could cause a fuel/air explosion.

There is a great post on the UK forum about making Mg from MgCL2 by electrolysis if you're seriously thinking of trying this.

J

shooter2

January 22nd, 2001, 08:49 PM

A very usable form of al. is made by sanding a piece of al pipe with a disc SANDER. Use 16 or 24 grit "Floor Paper". (The grit stays on the paper). The al. powder, under a magnifying glass, looks like tiny thin ribbons with very sharp pointy ends. Of course German black is the best.(This methode is very quick and the paper disk doesn't load up like a grinding wheel does). P.S. Alot of al. pipe is alloyed with magnesium!

Teck

January 23rd, 2001, 02:07 AM

Ok someone asked where was I from, U.S.
and this is the way I did it... I took an aluminum plate like a 2'by2' square and a hand sander (air or electric) and just sanded the aluminum plate using a 240 grit sand paper. Its a lenghthy proccess so I was wondering if theres a faster way. Because its really expensive to ship stuff to Alaska. Other wise I would just buy it. And another thing is what is atomized aluminum powder?

Anthony

January 23rd, 2001, 09:19 AM

The ture definition of "atomiised" should be a susbstance reduced into it's componenet atoms, so that one particle of the poweder is only one atom in size.

BUt I think they just mean, teeny, tiny, itsy, bitsy sized powder.

Agent Blak

January 23rd, 2001, 05:05 PM

I believe when they talk about Atomized Al Powders they are refering to the method in which it was prepared. Where flake is ground(Large ball mill). Where atomized means it was brought to a liquid and put through an atomizer(it is sprayed into a mist) and coolled in an oxygen(O2) free atmosphere.
You are then left with tiny droplet(round) peices of Al; which have less surface area than the flake.

------------------
A wise man once said:
"... As He Waits For The Time When The Last Become First And,
The First Shall Become last"
--RATM

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

firebreether

January 25th, 2001, 11:32 PM

I've tried using an electric coffee grinder but it doesn't get it fine enough. Seems to be about 1 mm thick pieces.

CragHack

January 25th, 2001, 11:42 PM

1mm is not very good. you should take the coffee grinder process Al and then place that in a ball mill for a while. see what you get.

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...Æ

homemaker

February 27th, 2001, 02:24 PM

where does mesh stand for?

[This message has been edited by homemaker (edited February 27, 2001).]

Mr Cool

February 27th, 2001, 03:22 PM

You need to modify the ball mill. It must have two strips of metal attached securely along the inside of the milling jar, opposite each other, so that the gap between them is about half to a third of the diameter of the milling jar. This lifts up the STEEL media and lets them drop onto the Al, which hammers and grinds it, whereas a normal ball mill just has a grinding action.
The Al foil used must be as thin as possible.

Bubba

February 27th, 2001, 06:38 PM

Need powdered alumnum? Radiator Stop-leak. Check it out. Its powdered alumnum or so says Ragnar benson in the vid I have "Homeade C4 a Closer Look"

DarkAngel

February 28th, 2001, 11:15 AM

I bought it ones,It contains only a little bit of Al powder and rest is some kind of powdered glue

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Agent Blak

February 28th, 2001, 04:00 PM

shouldn't you be able to seperate the glue from the Al Powder with a cell.
The Al Should go to the (-)electrode(Cathode I think). Anyone else have an Idea?

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Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

Mr Cool

February 28th, 2001, 04:05 PM

Aluminium ions will be attracted to the cathode in an electrolytic cell. However, mobile ions are only present in a solution of a salt, or a molten salt. Metalic Al has no mobile ions in it, the positive ions are locked in place surrounded by electrons, so the Al powder in the glue or whatever will be neutral and unaffected by an electric charge.

Agent Blak

February 28th, 2001, 05:09 PM

What about disoling it in H2O; The decant to get rid of the glue. do this several(4-5) times and then just dry out the powder in a Toaster oven or the like.

------------------
A wise man once said:
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

Bubba

March 2nd, 2001, 12:18 PM

Read in a book that you can get powdered AL from a screenprinting supply place. Seems that they use it to glitter the ink. Make sure that it is actual Al and not plastic glitter though.

Mr Cool

March 2nd, 2001, 05:35 PM

If it glitters it's around 50 times too coarse. The useful stuff is a fine dark grey powder.

PHILOU Zrealone

March 9th, 2001, 08:50 AM

Atomised means; the process where Al resistance is vaporised by a high intensity current into a colled reduce-pressurised inert gas like Ar, Ne, He, (N2 may form partially AlN!!!). Then when cold cold dry air is allowed to enter slowly to avoid too much heat (the higher the heat, the thicker the oxyd layer arround the active metal and thus the less metal present in the grain!).
Then you get a very expensive, reactive, fine, Al powder, that can be set in fire by a lighter, that can detonate with air, and with what thermite mixture is easily set in fire by a simple flame!!! NH4NO3/Al mix is also very powerful when in fire!!!!

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firebreether

March 9th, 2001, 03:29 PM

I don't think that particle size matters when it comes to lighting a pure metal. So that it would be next to impossible to light pure Al any size powder, flake or atomised. When you add an oxidizer it is easily ignited. or use as an FAE. And I think flake is better for the same size mesh because it has more surface area.

DarkAngel

March 9th, 2001, 03:56 PM

Maybe i have found a very good and cheap source for Al powder(Paint shop) ,,they sey that they sell two and a half kilo Al powder for $8,88 USD

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PHILOU Zrealone

April 4th, 2001, 10:49 AM

Firebreether:"Fire Brother" http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif
Particle size mather, I am sure of that since my 400mesh Al powder doesn't burn with a lighter while my 4000 or more mesh powder does! Tell me why then, metal powders are much more reactive and even pyrophoric (burning spontaneously when dispersed in air) when in contact with air...if particle size doesn't mather

------------------
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firebreether

April 4th, 2001, 03:31 PM

i stand corrected! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif Where the heck did you get 4000 mesh Al powder? I want some. Is that air float? Thats pretty tight you can light it with a lighter.

PHILOU Zrealone

April 5th, 2001, 06:43 AM

I got a 200g free sample from a french friend of mine working partially for the NASA and a lot of related pyrothechnic labs.
It cost a lot and it is very light 200g takes about 0.5l bottle place while mine 400 mesh powder is heavy and for the same weight takes about 100ml.

------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
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PHILOU Zrealone

April 5th, 2001, 08:32 AM

This powder has been produved via the volatilisation of Al wire upon strong electric intensity in inert atmosphere. After cooling a flow of very cold air is allowed to enter the reaction room.
Result a very very fine Al powder with a very very thin oxyd layer...thus very reactive powder since the active metal is in big quantity and because the specific surface is big too.
It is so reactive that for the same Al quantity shuttles goes twice far thus ,meaning an economy of 50% fuel!!!!!
THis friend has also spoken to me about a new powder of Al coated with nitrocellulose....

------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
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shady mutha

April 6th, 2001, 08:48 PM

I went into a car painting specialist store,anyway I asked for aluminum powder as a paint additive for a sparkle finish,he said 'what colour' I said aluminum he said'you mean silver' I said ill think about it and left.I had a look at the containers and they are metal flakes of some sort but they are all coloured e.g "candy apple red,delicious red". They are in a hexagon shape.Is this aluminum powder?

chair

May 2nd, 2001, 03:57 PM

I looked in a hardware store for Al powder, and all I found was a gold coloured powder, no Al. I went into an automotive supply store, and asked for Radiator Stop Leak, as mentioned by Ragnar Benson. I bought three tubes of it. I couldn't wait to get home, so I opened it in the car, and smelled it(I don't know why), and it smelled like wheat. Well, when I got home, upon closer examination I concluded that it was mixed with something. So I decided to try and seperate the stuff and the Al powder, so I added water and mixed, and filtered, and repeated. The material that was left over in the filter paper still contained the nasty crap that was mixed with the aluminum powder. I decided to try and seperate it by sifting through a mesh(after it was dry). So I put it on a towel and let it to dry. I checked back in about 4 days and it was covered with maggots and flies. I almost puked from the stench.

The moral to the story is, never leave a towel full of wet crap laying in your bathroom.

The end.

-chair

Anthony

May 2nd, 2001, 04:37 PM

I've heard that story before somewhere.

Why wouldn't a person go in their bathroom for 4 days?!

chair

May 2nd, 2001, 04:42 PM

I usually use the main bathroom of the house, not the one I kept the Stop Leak/Water mix in.

PHILOU Zrealone

May 3rd, 2001, 06:12 AM

It cost a lot following what my friend has told me (He never told me the price; I guess it is over 1000$/kg); since it is only experimental yet (kind a prototype) and that there is no big plant capable of producing it; every attempts of scaling up yielded less performant powders than on lab scale! Also the site of production is in Russia where they masterise the process; even if the procedure is wel known and documented, it seems that the lab that produces it mathers (or the operator)!
I know it is strange but I observe this every day in my lab at work; one guy making something a certain way will have different results than another guy making the very same thing, the very same way even if the frist one assist for the making! Differences are noticeable on Viscosity, stability, ...

This powder is clearly submicron it is dark black and from the look you can't say it is very fine; you only have that feeling when playing with a spoon in it because it looks like ashes. The tiny grains looks very irregular with arms, branches (like fractals) They thus display very high specific surface en they gather by imbrication!

------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

PHILOU Zrealone

May 4th, 2001, 05:22 AM

Warhead, send me a mail at louis.p@pg.com and I'll send you a surprise!

------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

Cricket

May 5th, 2001, 01:25 AM

I noticed that Pyrotec sells 1000+ mesh Magnesium powder. Do they get this in a similar way?

ps, You are very lucky to have such a friend. All my 2-3 closest people (except my cousin and dad) are, bluntly put, quiet stupid about everything I know. They are acting to know some of the easy stuff I talk about and then they don't know anything else. That pisses my off, they think they are cool because they CAN mix gasoline and stryofoam (and probly never have). I just don't talk about my main interests with them people, just my dad and cousin. And your friend also has a very cool job, with NASA.

[This message has been edited by Cricket (edited May 05, 2001).]

10fingers

June 18th, 2001, 12:41 PM

I didn't want to start a new thread on this topic so I dug this one up from the cellar.
I think it is very difficult to make aluminum powder suitable for use in flash by mechanical methods, filing, grinding etc. I had some 200 mesh and I ball milled it for a week and it was only slightly finer, it would not work in flash. The ball mill would have worn out before the powder was fine enough. In making high quality mirrors for astronomical use, etc. they suspend the glass that they wish to coat with reflective material in a vacuum chamber. Directly underneath this piece of glass is a small container that has a red hot electric filament in it. This is filled with aluminum. In the low pressure the molten aluminum will vaporize and deposit on the glass surface.
My ideas is this; Why not take a piece of steel pipe with end caps and attach a metal tube to one end, connect this to a trap half filled with oil, the output of this trap would go to a vacuum pump. The pipe is partially filled with aluminum and placed on red hot coals, etc. When the aluminum has melted turn on the vacuum, it should vaporize and rise up the pipe and out the output tube into the trap where it will be collected by the oil. After a sufficient quantity has collected you can remove the oil, add a solvent and let the aluminum powder settle to the bottom. Pour off solvent, rinse the powder several times with solvent. This should give a very fine aluminum powder.A process similar to this was mentioned by Philou.
One problem that may occur with this process is that the aluminum may deposit in the output tube as soon as it begins to cool, this would quickly plug the tube before the aluminum vapor has reached the oil trap. If the output tube is heated it would be too hot when it enters the oil trap and vaporize the oil.
This idea is #34 on a list of 128 projects to try someday.

Snipie

June 20th, 2001, 11:51 AM

In my country (Holland) fine Al powder is sometimes used to mix it with epoxy, to make the epoxy stronger. The powder itself is very fine, and not really expensive, like $20 for 1Kg (site is in Dutch <A href=http://www.goudacomposieten.nl/catalogus/05.html>http://www.goudacomposieten.nl/catalogus/05.html</A>). I've used this stuff in a mix: KNO3, S and Al, and it worked just fine.

nbk2000

June 20th, 2001, 05:06 PM

There's always the possibility of making the aluminum SO fine as to be pyrophoric. The moment you opened the reaction vessel, FLOOSH! and there goes all the aluminum.

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-A-

July 28th, 2001, 05:03 PM

Grinding the aluminium can get very boring...
I asked at a paint shop and they had aluminum pigment... I wonder what this could be, apart from aluminum of course.
They also had silver pigment, which supposedly has aluminum too...
any info on this ones?
(I am not sure of the translation for the compounds)

BrAiNFeVeR

July 28th, 2001, 06:51 PM

Wow Snipie, i did not know i could al powder so nearby so cheap (Antwerp;.be) !!
Could you give me an address where i can buy it, or do i have to order it (could not find too much info on the site)?

I would very much appreciate the necessary info and would be glad to return a favor ...

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"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"

Ezikiel

July 29th, 2001, 10:41 PM

Guys !! Speaking of pyrophoric Aluminum .... I know how to prepare Pyrophoric Nickel aka Nickel Black.
make a 1:1 alloy of Nickel and Aluminum. Take this chunk of alloy and put it in NaOH solution (10%) for a long time. NaOH dissolves the Al and all that is left is a sponge of Nickel which is said to be Pyrophoric. Maybe Al can be formed in the similar way. Na Al alloy left in methanol or ethanol. The Na will form alkanoates with the alcohol and Aluminum Black should be left.

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"Go out in a BLAZE OF GLORY"

July 30th, 2001, 10:04 AM

Making Na/Al alloy would be extremely difficult! You'd have to do it in a completely sealed container for a start, then there's the problem of getting pure Na. You could electrolyse molten NaOH, but I don't know how this could be done effectively.

J

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Ezikiel

July 31st, 2001, 12:22 AM

How about a Al/Mg alloy as the Mg reacts with haloalkanes to form grignard reagents (Alkyl Magnesium Halide).

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"Go out in a BLAZE OF GLORY"

Antonio

August 14th, 2001, 02:15 AM

I tried using a bench grinder to grind some aluminum. It blew all over the place cause its so lite, plus I choked on alot of it.

Cant you just mix Aluminum foil with HCl and then mix the AlCl with Mg?

Teck

August 20th, 2001, 06:10 AM

Ya, I was wondering about disolving aluminum foil in some acid, like HCl, sulufuric, or even nitric, then runing it through a distil. Will that work???

Teck

September 6th, 2001, 04:08 AM

Ya thats the way I used to grind up Al is with sand paper and an electric sander.

BrAiNFeVeR

September 6th, 2001, 03:04 PM

If one could cover the inside of a ball mill with grinding paper, and then put in little chunks of Al you might just be able to get very fine Aluminium powder ...

Maybe something worth trying.

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"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"

firebreether

September 6th, 2001, 04:27 PM

If you put Al in an acid it will react to form the salt, so you will not have Al anymore.

krimmie

September 8th, 2001, 12:05 AM

I have been using Al from flake(cuttings from a band saw), I grind this further with a blender. It is fine enought to ignight, but not detonate in anyway. It is a lot of fun though!

krimmie

September 8th, 2001, 02:30 PM

Never tried a file or jigsaw, but I'd asssume any way to get something small(from something large) would work. Just make sure to continue grinding it with a blender or coffee grinder. A file would become quite ponderous I believe! I have thought that a belt sander, with the dust bag intact, would be a good choice. You'd have the option of 50 grit through 200!

CodeMason

September 8th, 2001, 09:57 PM

I'm going to try a method wherein I place compacted Al foil (it looks like pure mineral gypsum, only silvery) in a film canister, then drilling it with a powerdrill and somehow collecting the powder that is formed. Then somehow I'll remove the coarse granules from the really fine stuff, and I should have good quality fine, dark flake Al.
When doing this I'm going to wear a face mask and eye goggles, do it outside, and take it slow to make sure the Al doesn't overheat and ignite some of the fine powder.

SATANIC

September 9th, 2001, 09:37 AM

i once tried dissolving Al in HCl (to collect the H2 gas) and then added Mg scrap. a very fine silver powder precipitated out, but i never had a chance to collect / filter it before my mum chucked it out. When i added the Mg, the entire solution went black - any ideas why?

( i do use the 'diggers' HCl which puts a funny colour into AP making as well, so maybe just a detergent or something in the acid)

CodeMason

September 9th, 2001, 10:27 AM

Satanic: That could just be very fine particulate Al suspended in the liquid, like when you pour very fine charcoal into water. I doubt they'd put detergents in HCl acid.

Hey, this method sounds very cool! I saw it in the Terrorbitch's Crapbook, but I never tried it because those fuckers didn't even know the proper chemical formula of ammonium nitrate! I can easily get Mg, so what the hell, next time I get some, I'll give it whirl.

Anthony

September 9th, 2001, 06:47 PM

Probably aluminium chloride (I think).

Codemason, you'll probably only get a coarse powder using a drill bit. Even so, I believe dark Al is so called because of the way it is prepared, IIRC flake Al coated on both sides with paper.

But I could be wrong.

CodeMason

September 9th, 2001, 08:21 PM

Anthony, I've just done it, I've found it to be around 60% very fine Al, 40% coarse nuggets about 1mm by 2mm. I simply placed a paper tray underneath the film canister and it collected almost all of the stuff that flitered out. I think I can seperate by using a shirt as a seive perhaps?

Anthony

September 10th, 2001, 03:58 PM

How sharp was the drill bit?

If you can sieve it with cloth the you've got a pretty fine powder! It should work, it does with flour.

venz

January 13th, 2002, 04:29 PM

anyone compare t-shirt sieved al to professional? if so.. i wondered what the mesh might be. it is silver colored and burns when sprinkled over an open flame. i have been making it for a while, waiting for my KCLO4 to arrive. i hope it works!

[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: venz ]

Cricket

January 13th, 2002, 05:25 PM

Well, I am ignorant in chemistry and all I know, but shouldn't there be a way to get very fine Al from a chemical method instead of a mechanical method? Like having a rod or chunk of Aluminium, pure, and then disolving it in something and then getting rid of the stuff that disolved it with another chemical or something :confused:? I bet Philou Zrealone will know! Maybe someone should look closer intop the HCl/Al/Mg thing and see if that is a way. I would but can't do anything like that anymore :( , damnit. Anyway, just a thought I had floating around for a while and thought I should share it.

vulture

January 14th, 2002, 01:02 PM

The problem is that Mg stands to the right of Al in the electrochemic potential row.
Therefore:
3Mg + 2AlCl3 -> 3MgCl2 + 2Al is a possible reaction but not the other way round.

In the industry MgCl2 is converted by meltelectrolysis at 700 - 800C and cell voltage of 5-7V. At the graphite anode Cl2 gas evolves and at the iron kathode Mg evolves which floats to the surface.
IF you would manage to reproduce these conditions it would have to be in a vacuumbecause the temperature is above the flashpoint of magnesium :(

[ January 14, 2002: Message edited by: vulture ]

venz

January 14th, 2002, 09:43 PM

A very usable form of al. is made by sanding a piece of al pipe with a disc SANDER. -shooter2

i tried this method and even sieved it through a t-shirt. once mixed with high purity chinese potassium perchlorate, it burned very slow. it was also difficult to ignite. any ideas? i tried both cans and al foil. the foil works a little better.. but i expected a FLASH. not a sparkler.

vulture

January 15th, 2002, 03:34 PM

Err, from your post i understand that you made you Al out of cans and foil, that's not a good way cause these are usually made of alloys or contain impurities.
I believe the foil is coated with something, too.

Sorry cricket i totally missed the point in my last post... :rolleyes: stupid of me....

I doubt you can make very fine Al powder in a chemical way, cause the Al formed in a reaction will easily form metal bindings, thereby making very large clusters of atoms.

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: vulture ]

Cricket

January 15th, 2002, 07:46 PM

I thought it was possible, hell I don't know what im talking about. Oh well... just a thought.

00Buckshot

March 14th, 2002, 06:02 PM

I've read that the radiator stop leak al can be seperated from the glue, by soaking it in acetone. This could work.

Teck

April 15th, 2002, 04:19 AM

venz: Try adding some sulfur to your flash compostion, and then confine it and it should work. When I add sulfur to my mixtures, its successful even if i use the coarse AL. I usually do 30/60/10 AL/KCLO4/S... But Im sure other people have their own ratios but I use this one and it seems to work fine.

vulture

April 15th, 2002, 12:59 PM

Try potassiumchlorate as the oxidizer and leave the sulfur out.
It's very safe and easier to ignite, because potassiumchlorate requires less energy to release it's oxygen.
Permanganate makes very powerful flash, especially with sulfur, i have never had any problems with this mixture, but it's very sensitive and storage unstable. Keep away from moisture!

Cricket

April 15th, 2002, 05:11 PM

Be careful where you get your Sulfer from though, I have heard that the stuff from the drug store is slightly acidic and maybe not pure enough.

The Great Milenko

April 16th, 2002, 09:46 AM

Yes, but I've read a way of purifying it, but I can't remember were. On the subject of permanganate flash; I was under the impression that the best permanganate flash was Al and KMn04, do you know if it's any similar with just KMn04 and sulphur?
And yes I know about how amazingly unstable it is! :rolleyes:

[ April 16, 2002, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: The Great Milenko ]

vulture

April 16th, 2002, 02:24 PM

I meant KMnO4/Al/S al mixed together, a 20g cracker of this stuff makes an enourmous bang.
KMnO4/S burns fiercely but can not be seen as a flash powder.
I used flowers of sulfur, which are slightly acidic and i had no problem at all. Maybe I was just lucky.
If you use permanganate you can not use alcohols for mixing it! Use acetone, this will also prevent it from getting wet.

The acid danger can be countered by adding a little bit of CaCO3.

[ April 16, 2002, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: vulture ]