Injex

[thrall]

Some days ago there was that discussion on insulin as weapon and the problem was to inject the thing in the place where the entry of needle would not be found. In that and in many other possible cases I think this thing can be used http://www.injex.com/:). A needleLESS injection system(painless as well). Canbe used for everything(possibilities are infinite ;)). So I thought I should better start a thread so that everyone can know what Adults:) have to say about this.

[#1-N-B-killer]

Yes well in theory that would work great but will the system deliver the substance through the targets clothing? Are you sure they don’t leave a mark? I don’t think I would use insulin, I’m not to framiller with it but if the person is not a diabetic, and they have a lethal dose of insulin in their system it will most likely raise some suspicions, I’m not positive but won’t even a small amount of insulin show up in a basic toxicology test? Wouldn’t it be easier to use a harder to detect poison like Saxitoxin? At least that would take more rigorous testing to detect. Do you know anything else about these needleless injection systems?
And i don't think that this was the section to start you're thread,maybe it should be moved to improvised weapons.

(Please refrain from posting multiple times if it doesn't appear. Newbie posts are subject to moderation - kingspaz.)

[festergrump]

Did NBK have a son and never mention it?! You must be his new "Machiavelli", I presume. Good luck filling Dad's shoes, son, they're very large... and looking rather silly on you right now... :rolleyes: (Is it thunder I hear? No...NBK looking for his shoes, perhaps).

Your right, though, Killer. A thread this would have fit nicely into: "Lethal Insulin" thread in this very "Battlefield Chemistry" section.

Anyway, it's my firm belief that an insulin OD is a poor choice for removing someone from society unless they are diabetic, regardless of the means of injection. Red flags will go up everywhere when the coroner has a nice look at the recently deceased's pancreas. Try a rhubarb leaf or two in the marks salad or on his burger, instead. Death comes within minutes, I hear, and the plant is VERY common in the northern US and in Europe. In fact, I grew this in my garden years ago in Chicagoland to eat the stalks...never knowing the properties of the leaves other than they were"undesirable". (Are the English and the hispanic the only folks with the nads to STAB anyone anymore? :eek: )

(EDIT: I'm sure it's neccesity as well as nads now that I think about it... ;) )

[thrall]

Actually my idea of possibly using this thing is using it like assasination of gregory markov. There russian assasin put a small ball filled with ricin in the victim that was "punctured in" using a make a shift umbrela. This thing as it works as jet injection, so it injects instaniously, can be used in similar fasion. You collide with someone at bus stand and "inject" "small" amount of ricin solution or whatever.
But yeh I didn't thought about the chothes thing. This CAN'T go through clothes. Think can only be used in summers :). As far as marks issue is conserned I think(I don't have this thing so I THINK) there might be mark but that won't be standered "injection mark". So it will be confused with some other mark on the body :).

[Bugger]

Injected ricin, from the seeds of the castor bean plant, ricinus communis, is supposed to be a rapid poison, and hard to detect because of its being a liver-poison polypeptide (a sequence of amino-acids) and the very small dose that is lethal. Remember that Bulgarian defector who was murdered some years ago by a Bulgarian secret police agent on a bridge in London, by being injected with a tiny hollow metal sphere containing ricin from the tip of a fake umbrella. He lived long enough in hospital to tell what happened, though.

Cone shell poison, from Conus species found e.g. on Australia's Great Barrier Reef, is also extremely poisonous by injection, and also difficult to detect because of its being a polypeptide. On 1 January 1963, two Australian CSIRO scientists (one of them Dr Gilbert Bogle, a physicist from New Zealand, and the other one a female marine biologist, Dr Chandler), who were last seen at a party the previous night, were found lying dead under pieces of corrugated cardboard in a public park in Sydney, New South Wales, with the clothing of one of them removed and neatly folded in a pile. At the time, and for some years afterwards, no cause of death could be found, and there was no evidence to charge anyone in connexion with the deaths. Then, a re-examination of samples taken from the bodies, using new chromatographic and electrophoretic and spectroscopic techniques, found the foreign amino-acids from cone shell poison. Because the dead female marine biologist had access to it, murder-and-suicide or a suicide pact is suspected, but the Bogle-Chandler case is still unsolved.

About rhubarb: its poisonous principle is oxalic acid. This can easily be removed by thorough cooking.

Bugger.

[festergrump]

Thrall,

It appears that the link you refered to has been "hit" enough times for the host(s) to have disabled it, hence my not being able to understand how it works.

Clothing (especially heavy clothing) will always be a problem when injecting an unwilling or unknowing recipient. Assuming the mark must be taken without imbibing a lethal dose of whatever, can you provide an alternate link? Google is being rather finicky with my searches... (or is it me and my sleepy fingers?)

Bugger, I had no idea about the rhubarb. Lucky I'm still alive. It's stalks are delectable to children when wetted and dipped in sugar. It was just one of the many nice tasting things in my garden (being a child of 19 YOA when I left), I assure... :D

[akinrog]

Thrall,
Clothing (especially heavy clothing) will always be a problem when injecting an unwilling or unknowing recipient. Assuming the mark must be taken without imbibing a lethal dose of whatever, can you provide an alternate link? Google is being rather finicky with my searches... (or is it me and my sleepy fingers?)

Festergrump

The site actually gives no description regarding the operation of the device, however it gives patent numbers of the devices and I leeched them (the patents) and after compressing them I uploaded to the forum FTP. They are "Hypodermic Jet Injector 5,499,972.rar" and "Hypodermic Jet Injector 5,569,189.rar" respectively. The patent contains detailed descriptions of the devices. HTH.
Regarding the ricin, I believe it is not a fast acting poison (unless a huge dose is not used). In addition, it's a catalytic type poison. For that reason a minute amount is enough to eliminate the mark (since it deteriorates protein mechanism). The signs of ricin poisoning looks like a heavy food poisoning. In addition, if the forensic scientist looks for it, they may most probably detect it. I believe now forensic scientists use Elisa (sp?) to detect antibodies the victim's body produces against this protein.

[thrall]

festergrump
I think the smile :) at the end of the link messed the things up. The link is
http://www.injex.com/
sorry

akinrog
The site DOES describe the working of the device and it even has a vedio.
http://www.injex.com/products/demos.asp
Of course for the exact details you have to look at the patents.
Edit:
Far as poison to be injected is conserned, of course any poison must be potent and latent. I mean the lethal dose should be very low and poison should be delayed acting. For that purpose there is nothing better than ricin. Cone Shell Venom is just TOO fast acting. It paralyse the victim instantaniously and kills it within minutes(ricin taked 3 days or at least 8 hours) so I don't think it's a candidate for this kind of an act. Far as I know there is little chances that a pathologist will look for insulin. I don't exactly remember but I read a story on crimelibrary.com about a doctor who killed people in three digits with insulin overdose while remained undetected. I'll try to search the story. Ricin also have the same chances(of being looked for by pathologist) and last time I heard of it's UNDETECTABLE, I might be wrong though.
EDIT: Correction

[Bugger]

"Looked for by a coroner?" Coroners preside over special courts set up to decide the causes of suspicious or doubtful deaths based on medical evidence found and presented by a pathologist, who may be assisted by analytical chemists and biochemists and medical laboratory technologists, and other evidence from pigs and other witnesses. So you should have said "looked for by a pathologist".

Bugger.

[FUTI]

this bring into my memory something about vaccination system developed by the US for mass immunisation in case of biological warefare. It is not undetectable, and it still cause pain (but not needle involved). If it is same thing, it worked through high pressure of liquid coming out of nozzle that is pressed to the body. It contained big bottle of liquid in magazin for approximately 100 immunisations. Lattest I remember that was tested about him is can it be replaceble needle and siringe substitute after AIDS emerged in its glory...as you can guess no it can not...smallest drop of body fluid that can drop on the apparatus can contaminate him and pass the deadly fluid to the next patient. Interesting thinking and that is all that I see here...but keep up with good work thrall you bring me back to my youth some 15 years before this moment.

[Bugger]

Another possible quick-acting poison able to kill by injection is cane-toad poison, synthesized in copious quantities in the skin of the cane or marine toad, bufo marinus. This very large toad was introduced into Queensland, Australia, in the 1930s, from South America, to kill the cane beetle, which was damaging sugar cane crops there. The same thing was done in some islands of Hawaii. However, they failed to work, and instead, having no natural predators, got out of control. They have since spread all over the moist areas of Queensland, into northern New South Wales, and are now spreading into Northern Territory, having reached the outskirts of Darwin. They are decimating wildlife predators which eat Australian native frogs, like snakes, goannas, hawks, falcons, crows, and smaller fresh-water crocodiles and alligators, all of which are poisoned by their skins. Only leeches (not the file downloading type) can safely draw blood from them.

The active substances in their skin glands are bufonin, bufotalin, bufogin, bufodienolide and bufotenin, which can be expressed as a creamy-colored, viscous secretion. The last one is an alkaloid, containing secondary and tertiary amine Ns. The others may be polypeptides. In small doses, bufonin causes hallucinations, and in Queensland cane-toad poison is banned as an illegal drug because of it (unenforceable, because the toads are so common).

Bugger.

[zeocrash]

I belive that ricin is detectible, as it was detected in the body of georgy markov. Admitted the doctor had to spot the microscopic sphere containing the poison first, but once they spotted that the detected the ricin nicely. That said it's still not obvious to a pathologist unless he knows what he's looking for.
Saxitoxin is also a very efficient killer, and it is very hard to detect. i believe the only way to detect it is to analyse the cereberal fluid/occular fluid.
Suchylcholine(sp?) is supposed to be undetectable as a poison as the body metabolises it into acetylcholine which is naturally present in the body. on the downside I believe, being a neurotoxin, it leaves some signs of foul play.

[Bugger]

An even more toxic substance is aflatoxin B1, which has a LD-50 (50% lethal dose) of only 0.4 gm/kg of body mass - possibly the most toxic substance known. It is also a potent carcinogen, and aflatoxins cause liver damage (aflatoxicosis), in sub-lethal amounts. It is found in very small amounts, even less than this concentration, in peanut butter.

Aflatoxin is a naturally occurring mycotoxin produced by two types of mold: Aspergillus flavus and Aspergillus parasiticus. Aspergillus flavus is common and widespread in nature and is most often found when certain grains are grown under stressful conditions such as drought. The mold occurs in soil, decaying vegetation, hay, and grains undergoing microbiological deterioration and invades all types of organic substrates whenever and wherever the conditions are favorable for its growth. Favorable conditions include high moisture content and high temperature. At least 13 different types of aflatoxin are produced in nature with aflatoxin B1 considered as the most toxic. While the presence of Aspergillus flavus does not always indicate harmful levels of aflatoxin it does mean that the potential for aflatoxin production is present.

Molecular structures: http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/aflatox1.html (B1 & M1)
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/aflatox2.html (G1). They have multi-fused-ring structures with several ether and keto-groups; see below.

Bugger.

[FUTI]

I think that what saved that guy was the fact that he wear lot of clothing and that little ball didn't penetrate deep under skin and only one of few poison containig holes sealed with some kind of body temperature melting wax open up because it was close to the skin surface and didn't warm up enough to melt the wax completely. The fact that finding of the ball and it's content solved the case as the poison was first detected and proved as content of a ball and later in the body of a victim only shows how hard is to detect a natural products as alcaloids and toxins in the body since metabolism can change it in a unpredictable way. So don't make any traceable entry and you have made a task an order of magnitude harder.

[nbk2000]

An even more toxic substance is aflatoxin B1, which has a LD-50 (50% lethal dose) of only 0.4 gm/kg of body mass.

That would work out to almost an ounce (20gms) for a 50 kilo man. Aspirin is far more toxic than that.

Perhaps you meant .4mgs? As in 4/10'ths of a milligram per Kg?

BTW, sound-alikes are not permitted to live. :p

[Bugger]

That would work out to almost an ounce (20gms) for a 50 kilo man. Aspirin is far more toxic than that. Perhaps you meant .4mgs? As in 4/10'ths of a milligram per Kg?

Correction: The LD50 of aflatoxin B1 I stated should have been 0.4 mg/kg, i.e. parts per million, not gm/kg. For someone weighing 100 kg this would be 40 mg, or 0.04 gm, a very tiny amount. By comparision, that of aspirin is 1.7 gm/kg, or 170 gm for someone of 100 kg.

Bugger