Comparing AP and HMTD

[BrAiNFeVeR]

I did some comparing tests between the most popular organic peroxides (in our field anyway) to see how efficiënt they use the oxidising power of the H2O2.
So I scaled down the formulas, taken from megalania's lab, to the point where they both required 10 ml 30% H2O2.
I used HCl instead of H2SO4 as a catalyst in the procedure to make AP, because I think it is safer.
Both reacting vessels where cooled int he same ice bath, and catalysts where added and dissolved in a similar rate.
Both stood overnight (more then enough time) and where filtered, neutralized with bicarb solution and rinsed with methyl alcohol to speed up drying rate. Dried in warm place 25°C, in half shadow.

HMTD:
50ml 30% H2O2 + 14gr hexamine + 21gr citric acid
Adjusted forumula:
10ml 30% H2O2 + 2.9 gr hexamine + 4.2gr citric acid

Yield 4.75 gr HMTD

AP:
30ml 30% H2O2 + 50ml acetone + 3 ml 70% H2SO4
Adjusted formula:
10ml 30% H2O2 + 16.6ml acetone + 10ml 10-20% HCl

Yield 7.5 gr AP

Out of this I conclude that, with no doubt, AP most efficiently used the H2O2.
With end products, APAN and HMTDAN tests will be made, and results will be posted (no pics because no cam :( )

<small>[ April 10, 2002, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: BrAiNFeVeR ]</small>

[Anthony]

Just to be clear, is that "gr" grams or grains?

[BrAiNFeVeR]

:rolleyes: grams of course, what are grains ? How many gram is a grain ?
You should know that Europe uses the metric system.
I'll never be able to figure out the need for that retarded system of ounces and gallons and all that shit. May lighting strike the mofo who invented that !!

[DBSP]

A grain is used in reloding since it recuires some very small adjustments. I'm my memory doesn't fail me a grain is about 0,06g(grams).

[Rhadon]

If you want to make sure that the reaction used the highest H2O2 amount possible, you should do the following:
After the reaction has come to an end, add hexamine and HCl just to make sure that the reaction hasn't stopped because there is lack for these compounds.

Additionally, your test will give more comparable results when using the same catalyst for both the synthesis of HMTD and of AP.

[Yi]

Those are some horrible HMTD yields. My dreams tell me you can expect ~10g (repeatedly) from that amount of hexamine & 30% H2O2. You have to leave it for quite a lot longer than overnight though. 24hours is more like it.

[Edit: Also your yield will decrease as you are using small amounts. More is lost in the filtering process and also it is less efficient (it seems).]

<small>[ April 11, 2002, 05:30 AM: Message edited by: Yi ]</small>

[Anthony]

It's worth being sure :) I'm used to seeing grams abbreviated to "gm", it's just you silly Europeans that must go confusing everything:P

The imperial system is based on centuries of proven use in the field. The metric system was created by scientists who just work with numbers. Not to mention that the metric system was based on an incorrect measurement of the earth, nor that it was created by the French. No offence to our French associates but historically the English *have* to disagree with the French, it's just tradition.

Personally I used a combination of the two, I was taught metric at school (thanks EU) and learnt imperial from my father in practical work.

Why didn't you use HCl to catalyse the HMTD reaction?

[BrAiNFeVeR]

Do you guys drive on the wrong side of the road just because you wouldn't act like the french ? ;-)

It really stood long enough, more then 24 hours. I just used the expression overnight to indicate long time. the AP on the sides was allready dry btw.

I didn't use HCl to catalyze the HMTD, because it only seems to work for me using citric acid, maybe I'll try it again sometime...

Yesterday some more testing was done, this time with mixtures of the peroxides and AN.
Each charge was buried 20-25 cm deep, to reduce sound (pregnant horse nearby).
4 charges where set off (made from 2 times 10 grams):

- 7 grams of HMTDAN
- 7 grams of APAN
- 3 grams of HMTDAN
- 3 grams of APAN

In my opinion, the APAN is louder then the HMTDAN, and the HMTDAN has more moving force (lower VOD ?).
The big charge of HMTDAN, when reaching the surface, swept up quite some dirt that I had to sweep of the lawn, while, when the shockwave from the APAN hit the surface, hardly any sand got on the lawn.
With the smaller charges, similar behaviour was noticed.

On a seperate note, has anybody had headaches from HMTD ???
Allmost every time I get some on my hands due to testing, not much later I get a short and annoying headache (not much pain, but a lot more then I am used from NG !!) :confused:
I feel that I can rule out AP, because I have worked with it before, and never had any trouble ...

[Rhadon]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I didn't use HCl to catalyze the HMTD, because it only seems to work for me using citric acid, maybe I'll try it again sometime...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Yes, it takes some time until the reaction starts when using HCl, but for me it works quite well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">On a seperate note, has anybody had headaches from HMTD ???
Allmost every time I get some on my hands due to testing, not much later I get a short and annoying headache.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I never got a headache from HMTD. Do you think it can be absorbed by through the skin?
I assume that you wear gloves when synthesizing HMTD. Did you experience a headache after doing so? If yes, the reason could also be the formation of some byproduct that is volatile and enters your body per inhalationem, e.g... let's say, methylamine.
I also touched HMTD with my bare hands, but I didn't feel anything unpleasant.

[mark]

The tenion from working with primarys always gave me a headache. Its just nerve wracking pressing the stuff into little containers.

[HOOPS123]

When pressing AP, will gloves do anything for you if it were to go off? Is there any way you can be perfectly safe, even if it does go off in your hand?

[RTC]

Depends on how much really. But whatever the amount it's gonna sting! Perhaps more..

[nbk2000]

If it's pressed in a cap, and you're holding it when it goes off...glove or no glove, you're losing fingers.

Just a couple inches makes the difference between being called "Stumpy", and just having some nasty cuts.

Use tongs, pliers, etc to hold the cap as much as possible. Use levers or vises to press the primary, not your hand.

I carried my dets by the fuze or wire, if I didn't have any sucke...er...friends <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> to carry it, never by the det body itself.

[Anthony]

Agreed, a few extra inches does make a BIG difference <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

I also carry my caps by the end of the fuse, I also transport them wrapped in tissue paper (shock absorbtion) inside an ammo box.

IIRC, many countries switched to driving on the right as they were released from the British Empire :)

[BrAiNFeVeR]

Yeah, size DOES matter, I'd hate it being called stumpy :)

Back on topic, I really like this use of AP !!
Too bad I'm not allowed to make much noise, I'd like to hear it in its full force ...
Only 5 grams of APAN (0.5 gr AP) make a pretty big sphere in the soil, I can reach in with my hand, after pushing the top of the sphere down in it, and I estimate a diameter of about 15-20 cm and it's bit elliptic too, bigger diameter then height.

[HOOPS123]

Heh, If only the Palestinians would follow that advice. According to Time magazine dozens and dozens of Palestinians have died making AP for the suicide belts.

[VX]

What? do they use AP as the main charge?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[kingspaz]

yer! the idiots use a belt of pipes full of the stuff <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[mark]

Dont discourage them

[BrAiNFeVeR]

That way, when they ckicken out on the last bit, it only takes a sniper with an aim on the belt to "save the day" ;-)

Though i still have severe doubts about the safety of APAN against pure AP, ofcourse it is safer, but how much ?

Can someone run some friction/impact/flame tests ? (standard 10% AP or less)

I'll bet the change is not very much with friction and impact tests :-/

[nitriees]

How your prepared the HMTDAN and APAN?
AN is so fast absorb water vapour from the air and wet the mix powder.
The wet powder will still detonate by light with visco fuse in normal
confinment?
Anyway to mix this stuffs will remain the sensitivity and avoid the water absorb effect of AN?

[BrAiNFeVeR]

Keep it airtight sealed or use it before it can get wet (this is not an explosive you want to store !!) If you live in a very moist region, it's gonna be a pain to keep it dry

I think it will still explode when there is only a few percent water in it, and if you use a good detonator ...

Don't thrust it to be safe when it's wet tho !!

[nitriees]

Last night, I try to detonate some HMTD/KNO3 mix in 1:4 proportion.
The detonator make by slightly press HMTD into 30mm long drinking straw.
Put the straw detonator into paper tube with 15mm diameter and 4mm thickness, 50mm long. Cover one end of paper tube with tisu paper and glue, drill a hole for fuse.
Load the HMTD/KNO3 mix and cover the other end.
It give a nice " bang ", the detonation sound seems like deeper compare to set off HMTD alone.
Since KNO3 is not hydroscopic as AN, can it be use to replace AN?
What's the difference in power compare to HMTD/AN mix?

[Anthony]

Why did you put the HMTD filled straw into a thick paper tube? Putting a barrier between primary (HMTD) and the seconday (KNO3/HMTD) will make the blasting cap less effective.

[nitriees]

Sorry about my confuse language.
The barrier between HMTD (primary) and HMTD/KNO3 mix (main charge) just a straw only. The paper tub is outest.
I try to set off HMTD/KNO3 mix with HMTD.
Will it be as powerful as HMTD/AN mix?
Any idea if KNO3/Fuel Oil mix can be set off?

[BrAiNFeVeR]

Well, If you're sure the KNO3/HMTD mix had a full detonation, it might be possible to detonate other KNO3 + fuel mixtures ...

I think somebody allready tried KNO3/NM an achieved full det, maybe you can try KNO3/Al, but I doubt this will detonate, if it does, it will require quite some booster I imagine.

How many grams of HMTd do you fit in a straw ? I only get 0.5 grams in 3/4 cm I don't risk to put alot of pressure on it, even in small quantity's it can easily remove a finger.
I recommend a very thick block of shatterproof material to press these things !!

[KinePak]

I had this dream that I made some AP, and had almost 100% yield, and for the past week I had been dehydrating it in a dehydrator, I know thats crazy but I figured as long as its not confined it will just flame up and not explode, but boy was I wrong, last night I had my dehydrator explode all over my kitchen and I will never get all the pieces it put a hole in my ceiling, would any one know why it exploded and didnt just flash. Sorry if I posted in the wrong section but yall are talking about Ap, so I htought this would be okay

[BrAiNFeVeR]

It really depends on the volume of your dehydrator and the amount of AP.
AP does NOT need a lot of confinement to explode, a tissue is more then enough !!!

Just thank God you weren't in the same room when it exploded. Or are you typing this from the hospital ?

Just goes to show AP is not something you wan't to be messing around with in larger quantities ...

[kingspaz]

KinePak, for it to detonate without reason i would say it would be due to poor washing after manufacture. it should be washed thoroughly inwater, then bicarb solution then in water again and bicarb again. the final bicarb wash will leave bicarb traces in the AP maning any acid missed will be neutralised later. but seriously if you make AP ALLWAYS expect it to explode at anytime. its not at all predictable.

[KinePak]

No, I was upstairs on the computer, my g-friend was in the shower and I was about to go down and check on it and Ka-Fuckin Boom, Dehydrator pieces all over my kitchen fumes were so bad I couldnt even get in there, it was serious shit,m and it scared the hell out of me, I want be drying out AP in my dehydrator anymore to say the least. I was very lucky, My dream afterwards I Went to my lake and used the Ap as a Primer with some PETN I got out of my detcord ,and Exploded some nice craters inthe ground with some Kinepak I had , it was awseome dirt flying 300ft in the air, it was a rush to say the least, hopefully I can get some more kinepak soon

[nbk2000]

Why the fuck would you have AP in a dehydrator for a wee?! :confused:

It probably subliminated from the warmer parts and recondensed on the cooler parts, forming fragile crystals which eventually broke under internal stresses or their own weight and exploded.

A few hours in the open air on a dinner plate will dry it adequately. And save you a few dollars too. :)

[KinePak]

NONONO, I didnt dehydrate it for a week, I only dehydrated it for like 45minutes to an hour, I had been using that dehyrating method for a week to dry out other batches of AP that I had made. I am not that dumb, well I did put it in a dehyrator thaough didnt I, thats about the only dumb thing I did, otherwise I was extremly careful

[nitriees]

I always put HMTD in to sodium bicarbonate solution for more than 5 hours to neutralise it after filter.
I dry this powder outsite where not direct to sun for whole day.
Quite save to handle, hand press it in straw or paper tube.
Yesterday I set off 15g slighty press HMTD/KNO3 mix in paper tube and
stick on 1mm thick steel plate, it make a 50mm diameter hole. Nice!!

[kingspaz]

nitriees, peroxide explosives are never safe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Rat Bastard]

Well.... at least with Bicarb it's a little safer .

Oh god, I just looked at the BS boards for a good laugh and I saw a guy who said "Why do you need to wash AP? I never wash mine".

God damn. those Idiots end up like <a href="http://members.shaw.ca/raydawg/losers/injury2.jpg" target="_blank">this kid</a>

[FarbrorBosse]

This is not really an issue about comparing HMTD and ATCP but
since there are no pure AP posts I'll post it here instead of
starting a new thread since I've read the rules. :)

I need some feedback on my ATCP calculations..
I have searched the web and checked on this forum,
and also on megas own very nice explosive page here,
but there seems to be no balance in any of those...
I want X g ==&gt; X g, where X is constant.

The text file can be found on the ftp or downloaded from
<a href="http://0bitus.tripod.com/files/atcp_balanced_formula.txt" target="_blank">http://0bitus.tripod.com/files/atcp_balanced_formula.txt</a>

[edited, nothing personal but I dislike yellow smilies.]

<small>[ July 18, 2002, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: FarbrorBosse ]</small>

[Sam]

brainfever- 1 grain is exactly 0.0648 grams

[Flying Dutchman]

Could someone help me?
I want to make AP but this are the chemicals I can get:
H2O2 30%
HCL 29%
H2SO4 37%
H2SO4 &gt;98%
and offcorse aceton
Witch sould I use as a catalyst? HCL, H2SO4 37% or the &gt;98% H2SO4?
I want as much yield as possible offcorse:D
another question how much of everything sould I use for a yield of 5-10 Gramms? (I don't want to blow my self up it's my first time making AP.

Thanks

[vulture]

Don't ask! Search!

And the fact that you don't know which chemical to use and how much of it already indicates you shouldn't be messing with AP!

[Flying Dutchman]

I'm sorry,
I will search more.
again I'm sorry.

I'll hope NBK has some mercy

-FD

[vulture]

Okay, Okay. Didn't intend to be that mean. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
<a href="http://roguesci.org/megalomania/explo/acetoneperoxide.html" target="_blank">AP</a>

[nbk2000]

At least he didn't start a new thread to ask this question. :rolleyes:

So you can stay...but christ, work on your english spelling!

AND SEARCH!

[THErAPIST]

alright, i have a question about AP here. ive never made the stuff. ive always made HMTD because according to megas proedure it has a slightly higher VoD than AP, and its more stable than AP. its easier for me to get the chems i need for AP than it is to get the chems i need for HMTD. i have to order my hexamethylenetetramine offa the net which gets kinda expensive. i was wonderin if anyone has ever made AP and not kept it in the frigerator while it was forming. ive heard of just letting it sit on a desk and ive heard of throwin it in the frig for a couple days. im kinda controversial on putting it in the fridge because of my parents who would be mentally slow enough to grab the jar (theyve done that when i have put my HMTD mix in there to chill it before) but i dont want it to be extremely unstable. so if i must use the fridge i will. if anyone has made it without putting it in the fridge i would like to hear about the results. also i think i saw something on a post made a long time ago about the impact sensativity of AP and then the impact sensativity of HMTD. if anyone could tell me which thread that was in i would apreciate it.

[kingspaz]

there are two common forms of AP that we encounter and that is the dimer and trimer. the dimer form is less stable, isn't as powerful and tends to be the larger constituent if the AP is made warm and not chilled. if the mixture is cooled to a low temperature like in a firdge then the trimeric form will be the larger constituent making the resulting explosive more stable and powerful. this is yet another reason for AP's unpredictable nature. everytime you make it there will allways be slight variations in temperature and therefore variations in ratio of trimeric to dimeric leading to differences in stability and sensitivity between batches.

[EP]

You could put it in a cooler of ice outside if you don't want to leave it in the fridge. That's what I'm thinking of doing...

[Flying Dutchman]

English is not my first language that's why my grammer is a little messed up...
and yeh I wouldn't want a batch of AP in my fridge.
and NBK thanks for letting me stay here,
I really am willing to learn alot.

-FD

[Anthony]

Let's be rational, AP may be quite sensitive, but it isn't going to just detonate in solution whilst sitting in the fridge :rolleyes:

If you were to use high conc H2O2 and just through the stuff into the fridge, then it could boil over whilst in the fridge. Or the reaction vessel could fall over whilst unattended. The worst that's likely to happen is that you get some midly poisonous chemicals on your food.

Just treat it with respect and me sensible (think!) and you'll be ok.

[andreas]

To flying dutchmann 5-10 grams of ap isn't going to blow you up but is still able to take of you'r hand and disfigure parts of your body.
So once more use it with respect and commen sence

[THErAPIST]

yea i knew that there were two forms of AP one of which being less stable but i didnt know that there was any difference in power. and when i say my parents may mess with it, im not worried about it detonating. im worried about my parents shakin it around and maybe just setting the jar outside on the patio table. last time my mom found my stuff she kinda played wuth it. she walked into my room kinda shakin the jar so that the solution was makin a small whirlpool, as she was askin me what it was. then when i told her that it was my HMTD she put it outside on the patio table. i dont wanna run into that problem with AP so i guess ill just put the jar in a small cooler outside, surround the jar with ice, and then put some AN on top of the ice so that itll stay a little colder for a little longer.
edit: forgot to menttion that im not worried about anything that has to do with high concentrations of H202 because i only use 6%. i buy 2 big bottles of 3% and i evaporate em in a dish to a half of the origonal volume. damn i wish they just sold 6% around here

<small>[ August 31, 2002, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: THErAPIST ]</small>

[NoltaiR]

Loading AP in caps is very nerve racking.. especially since I had a very close call when I first began making the infamous primary a few years back. I always packed it wet (not sure why.. lack of impatience probably) which made it more safe of a procedure but then you face the problem that most likely will not dry completely. Anyways I pushed a short fuse in it (way to short.. at this point in time I still wasn't exactly sure how spark/heat sensitive AP is) and lit a match to ignite the fuse. As soon as the match touched the fuse a spark jumped and hit the AP (even though it was only a 1.5g cap) and rather than a complete detonation that would occur when dry, a low pop along with a 7-8 inch bright yellow and white fireball came out barely missing my bare fingers. That was certainly a wake up call to all aspects of AP... needless to say from then on I used electrical ignition which works especially well with AP because it is so heat sensitive.

But a while after that I developed APrc (AP and rubber cement as a binder) which eliminated the need for a confinement. It also drastically increases the VoD (as much as I can tell from visual confirmation) and for a limited amount of time, the clump of APrc is waterproof when submerged under water (which made for some very easy and very powerful depth charges). And for one more added feature, the clumps of APrc were sticky to the touch (unless you let them dry for too long) so they could be placed on vertical surfaces that would otherwise not be possible with you common cap.

[J.T.Ripper]

I just used my first AP charge today. i was very happy with the results. I'm intending to cast my next batch with ping-pong balls and acetone. I think that i made the dimmer vesion of AP because all I did was mix it all together and place it in a corner of my shed thats always dark and about 8C' with some ice bags on it.
I left it for 16 hour and got a good result of about 10 grams.

[Anthony]

If you do make it, or anything else for that matter, use the cooler outside. You shouldn't put your shit in a position where ignorant people will mess with it.

<small>[ September 01, 2002, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]</small>

[THErAPIST]

my moms slow sometimes. she usually doesnt touch it. only when my sister pisses her off and she gets uptight baout everything. my dad wont go near the stuff. but yea. im goin to get some acetone and sulfuric tomorrow. maybe hcl. prices keep changin

[FarbrorBosse]

The dimer form of AP seem to form more when using high conc H2SO4, but not noticeable with HCL.

The more H2SO4 the more dimer and less trimer form of AP. I have had no problems with creating AP at room temp more then the fact light will break down H2O2 into oxygen and water so if you have it outside the fridge and the lid is on, allowing no gas to get out, the bottle might explode caused by the expanded gas produced. The big problem is the higher your temp is the more acetone will leave your solution. If temp is over 56°C your acetone will start to boil and very soon you will have no acetone that can react with the H2O2. So keeping the mix cold is recommended.

When dripping H2SO4 into your hydrogen peroxide + acetone mix some of the sulfuric acid will react with the H2O2 and form H2SO5 and water.
"H2O2 + H2SO4 &lt; == &gt; H2SO5 + H2O"

According to swedish informania you get pure dimer form when using
peroxymonosulfuric Acid, and that is what you get when dripping high concentration sulfuric acid into hydrogen peroxide. The higher conc of acid the more H2SO5 is formed.

If you are uncertain about your AP being dimer or trimer take a teaspoon of your finished AP. Then you let the steam from boiling water heat the spoon. The trimer form of AP will melt and turn into a liquid while the dimer form will still be crystals since the melting point of dimer AP is ~133°C. Let it be heated for about 5 minutes and all you have left in the spoon is dimer, hopefully nothing at all.

[Anthony]

The higher yield of dimmer when using high conc H2SO4 is usually caused by the heating effect of the acid.

No one's AP solution should be anywhere near 54*C! Seriously, you do want to keep things nice and cold people...

[andreas]

That's why al the crapbooks state that sulphuric acid forms dimer and hydrochloric forms trimer. As anthony said sulphuric acid heats up extremely when hydrated whereas hydrochloric doesn't heat up as much. But Cooling the sulphuric in the freezer to -20 helps as does adding it DROP by DROP. By the way does anybody know what the brown gas is that sometimes evolves when you accidentally squirt the seringe with sulfuric to fast in other words add the sulphuric to fast.

[NoltaiR]

I think temp does have something to do with yield (even when speaking of temps below 20*C). Now it may just be coincidence, but I tend to get a faster production of AP in my freezer (-5*C) than in my refrigerator (5-10*C).

I personally have always used 94% H2SO4.

[xoo1246]

Decomposed hexamine?

[kingspaz]

yer NoltaiR, that is correct. it is because solubility decreases with temperature. more AP will crystalise if the mix is cooled to a cooler temperature as the AP will be less soluble. although not water soluble everything is allways slightly soluble (learnt that from philou..).

<small>[ September 05, 2002, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]</small>

[Flying Dutchman]

ok I know this is not the right place to post. Uhuh, so why did you go and post it here anyway then?
I searched on the Forum for ANFO and ANNM.
The only thing I would like to know ,
What ratios AN--&gt; Diesel or AN--&gt;NM do you guys use.
I would really like an answer, I couldn't find it in Mega's place.

Thanks
-FD

a)it's common knowledge - do a websearch b) both have been mentioned numerous times in threads here at the forum. I'd suggest you hit the search engine again, or just read some old threads in the HE section.

<small>[ September 05, 2002, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]</small>

[FarbrorBosse]

If you have the right ratios there will be nothing the AP can dissolve in since we all know the only thing created in the end is water and AP plus you have the catalyst, and AP will not dissolve in HCL.

Now if you have an unbalanced formula when making ap, who leaves unreacted acetone in your batch I can agree you will get a higher yield at lower temp, but who does not calculate the ratio before the lab??

The yield problem is more a matter of acetone leaving the mix, making it unable to react with the H2O2 easily solved by letting the reaction take place in a closed bottle with just cool water flushing on the outside.

[edit]: I have compared yields at 0 and 30 degrees and the yield is identical, it is more a matter of how much catalyst you choose to have, if you have to little the PH will not be low enough and there will be a very slow reaction.
Also if you have low konc reactant there will be alot of water in it, and you need even more acid,
but I hope you all already knew this :)

<small>[ September 22, 2002, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: FarbrorBosse ]</small>

[THe_rEaL_dEaL]

when my friend makes this stuff he always cuts it 10% with bicarb after the neutralisations and drying. This is just to be extra carefull as occaisionally small slightly hard chunks of AP remains after washing which may be hiding acid.

Also if this AP goes off near you, then if you dont loose bodyparts, your likely to get some chronic hearing dammage, especially if this stuff was to be transported in a backpack to the det site, being close proximity to your ears.

Wear earplugs with a beanie or hooded jacket to conceal them and this may decrease the hearing loss. It will in no way completely stop it.

[me234]

rEaL_dEaL: How much power does your friend's 'cut' AP lose compared to 'straight' AP?
Have you guys done any tests?
I'd be interested in the results.

[THe_rEaL_dEaL]

Good Question. Subjectively, by visual analysis, I would say it is slightly less powerfull. A new batch is ready for drying so i'll get back to you on the tests.
What test methods would you sugest?

[nbk2000]

How about NOT carrying the primary on your back, next to your vital organs?

Carry it in a hand bag (not a purse! :p) so that, if it did go of, it's by your leg, not your head.

Explosive force decreases by distance according to the inverse square law. If 1'=1, then 2'=-1/4, 3'=1/9, 4'=1/16.

So, by carrying it by your leg instead of on your back, you decrease explosive force effect to your ears by at least 1/9th of what it would otherwise be. :)

[me234]

I was thinking something simple, maybe a couple Al plate tests.
Maybe try a displaced sand test as a measure of power rather than briscance (we are talking primaries here after all).
Have you tried any sensitivity comparisons?
The biggest appeal I can see is potentially decreased impact sensitivity.

[xyz]

I seem to recall reading that basic AP was almost as dangerous as acidic AP and that conditions were best kept neutral.

In any case, I wash my AP once in bicarb solution to neutralise remaining HCl and then 3 times with water to remove as much excess bicarb as I can.

[NoltaiR]

Although I cannot reply based on experience, the text I have always read has said NEVER leave AP in an acidic state. Personally it has been years since I have made a fresh batch of acetone peroxide and I always neutralized it with water several times. I never used bicarb solution like everyone talks about and yet I never had a problem. But why would you even talk like it would be ok to leave acid in your finished product.

"Cleaned" AP is much safer and also a lot more logical.. I recall a very long time ago when someone here took pictures of an accident they had where some AP detonated on its own due to acid.. was its Alengoso.... I don't remember his name.

Anyways for anyone who doesn't remember me brag about the power of mixing AP with elmers rubber cement should possibly give it a try.. its very safe.. you don't really have to worry about it being so friction and impact sensitive and it is slightly moldable.. not to mention that it detonates very, very well even unconfined.

[THe_rEaL_dEaL]

How about NOT carrying the primary on your back, next to your vital organs?

NBK 2000:
I may have confused you and others. I do not carry charges on my back. I usually walk with the bag held away from my body and organs with outstretched arm. The backpack is purely for concealment and the charges are usually rolled up in the center of a towel.

What is your preferred method for transporting primaries and other sensitive charges? Do you use any form of container that could possibly absorb or dissipate a misfire? This isn't on topic but I feel its very useful in respect to sensitive primaries like AP and HMTD.

me234: Thanks for that testing info. I have not done any sensitivity tests as yet but that would be a good idea.

xyz:
I have to say Ive never heard of AP being sensitive to alkaline conditions and have never had any problems with the mix but I will look into this. Where did you hear this?

[Cato]

I have been reading up on the London attacks and a number of news report say that the bad guys used AP or HMTD and pepper or flour; saw another report that said the bad buys in Jordan last year were going to use H2O2 and cumin.
I saw a recipe once for H2O2 and ground coffee - any one seen recipes for peroxide based HME and cumin, pepper flour - or is this just another media beat up.
I search this forum and could not find any refs. that answer question and a www search did not turn up any recipes.

[twotonetony95]

Just get a large hard-sided cooler and put a smaller soft cooler inside it and pack with ice, and that will keep it extra cold and the ice won't melt as quick. You could also put rock-salt onto the ice to lower the temperature of it.

[TreverSlyFox]

"...a number of news report say that the bad guys used AP or HMTD and pepper or flour..."

Never heard of using pepper, flour yes, but as a "Dust Bomb" explosive. 10 Lbs of flour in a cardboard box sitting on top of an explosive. Inside a large closed room or building it's a devestating explosion. In the Military we got to see a "Dust Bomb" in action in an Improvised Explosive class back in the 60's and it was quite a sight. But the class was on how to "extend" a limited amount of explosives and the "Dust Bomb" was strictly for an enclosed permanent structure.

I guess it could be used in a train car or buss but it would be a big package and you'ed have to keep it up-right from my understanding of it. I'm not sure how you'ed place it in a train or buss as it's more for a large open space to get the right dust-to-air mixture. I guess it could be "Down Sized" to fit the space in a train or buss, but I'd be more tempted to use an explosive and jellied gasoline in such a small space.

[Cobalt.45]

Abbreviate "gram" as G and "grain" as Gr.

A grain is .002285 oz or .0648g

I realize that I'm risking getting the boot, being new and all, but just as grammatical errors foster unpleasant results or worse, so do misinterpreting symbols used to represent weights and measurements.

Again, sorry so far off topic.

[Chopper]

The answer to the question of "Which is better? AP or HMTD?" Has different answers, depending on which way you approach it.

(1) Cost
If for example, you were more concerned about the cost per gram of finished product, then AP is the better choice - provided long storage times are not going to be used. In which case the AP sublimes and you may lose more than you use.

(2) Initiating ability
If on the other hand, one is more concerned about the initiating ability of the compound then it is HMTD that wins the day, hands down. On account of the hotter detonation reaction, combined with the higher gas output. Additionally, it is the finer-grained of the two and is therefore somewhat safer to compress. Military studies have found that "it is not dead-pressed by loading pressures of 11,000 PSI" (pg 468(?) copae)

(3) Concealability
Next of course, is the question of concealability. With such a high rate of sublimation, AP is going to be much easier to detect in anything other than a totally sealled container. If efforts were made to plasticize it with PiB, which is impermeable to gas, then one would find that the plastique mass would expand in volume and become spongy.

For the question of concealability, HMTD comes out the clear winner. Pib plastisized HMTD does not expand or become spongy. It releases no gasses to be detected - much like C4, which is actually required to have vapour releasing taggants added for detectability at airports. Hence the shoe bomber's use of HMTD and PETN. Excellent power combined with low detectability - silly fucker just screwed up when he got caught lighting the thing. :rolleyes:

4) Ease of Precursor Procurement/Manufacture
This is a question that is no doubt going to vary depending on one's location on the planet. For the most part, where I live it is far and away _much_ easier to obtain the chems needed for AP, as this involves just a trip to a hardware store and a hydroponics store. Acetone, HCL @ hardware + H2O2 @ Hydroponics. HMTD on the other hand requires trips to the Supermarket(citric acid), the Army surplus store (Hexamine) and finally the Hydroponics store(again, for the H2O2)

While never having visited, one can only conclude that the same is true in Palestine (with possible influence of Pt #1), where the crazy bastards have been known to be raided with up to 800kg of AP sitting in the garage :eek:

AP is also known to be much more forgiving of the conditions in which it is made. Whilst also being a strongly exothermic reaction, it is not nearly as fierce as that of it's sister. Even if one does get a little over-enthusiastic and add the catalyst far too fast and produce boiling of the reaction mix, this is not the end of the batch, as would be the case with HMTD.

Producing 50g of AP in an hour is no big deal, nor is drying it in a further 1/2 to 1 hour. So long as the mixture is cooled sufficiently, an excess of the calculated 98% H2SO4 (1.25-1.5 times excess) may first be diluted to ~50%, before being added practically in one go - i.e 2-3 seconds for enough acid to form 50gms AP.

If one is infact a little over enthusiastic with the addition of (too-strong) acid or a little cheap on the cooling side of things, Dimer and Trimer AP have an interesting property that makes their separation trivial. The density. Trimer will sink to the bottom of the reaction vessel, whilst Dimer will float. Simple as that.

HMTD on the other hand can be somewhat of a mother-fucker to make in a hurry. An entirely different reaction mechanism mean that the acid is not acting merely as a catalyst anymore and thus participates in the reaction itself. The reaction is substantially more exothermic than that of AP. Good cooling is imperative, rather than just beneficiall to formation of the desired isomer.

Also, due to the substantially larger quantity of acid needed, if one was to dilute this down to facilitate quicker addition, the time needed to complete the reaction is not changed much, but the yield suffers horribly.

Alternately, if the acid is added too quickly, the reaction mix may develop heat fast enough and sufficient to break (non-pyrex) glass beakers standing in iced water and to melt plastic into a whithering mess. Not to mention the _nasty_ fumes that are emmitted from the now-ruined reaction mix.

Oh well, back to the freezer I guess. ;)

[Cobalt.45]

[QUOTE=Cobalt.45]Abbreviate "gram" as G and "grain" as Gr.

After posting this gem, I saw that it's WRONG!

gram= g grain= gr

++++

Actually, either way is correct. Some journals capitalize, others don't.

NBK

[Cobalt.45]

[QUOTE=Cobalt.45]Abbreviate "gram" as G and "grain" as Gr.

After posting this gem, I saw that it's WRONG!

gram= g grain= gr

++++

Actually, either way is correct. Some journals capitalize, others don't.

NBK

"G" doesn't represent gram. Check on the US Metric Association's website. There's some good info there...

[nbk2000]

Try reading 50 or 100 year old chemical journals and see how common "G" for gram is. :)

We must not only look towards the future, but also remember the past.

Seeing 'Clew' in an old mystery book, would you assume a typo?

Did you know that 'Clue' was spelt 'Clew' until at least the 1930's?

You must know the obsolescent spellings and syntax, as well as modern, if you are to have a complete grasp of the subject.

[Cobalt.45]

Duly noted. For the here and now, my personal preference is to follow currently used symbols. What's not acceptable, is using gr or Gr for gram. gr is grain. g is gram.

[nbk2000]

Yes, I've seen numerous instances of gr. being used as an abbreviation for 'gram'. Usually you can tell by context what the meaning is, but it shows sloppiness on the writers part.

[Cobalt.45]

Try reading 50 or 100 year old chemical journals and see how common "G" for gram is. :)

You must know the obsolescent spellings and syntax, as well as modern, if you are to have a complete grasp of the subject.

nbk, you peaked my curiosity with this, so I did a quick search for "classic chemistry", "archaic chemistry terminology and such like.

What do you get from the combining of "brimstone", "carbone" and "nitre"? Too easy. What about "spirit pyroacetic", "spirit of salt" and H2O2? What would happen if you combined "dephlogisticated air of Dr. Priestley" with "petrolatum"?

Too bad this is so far off topic. Kinda fun to see what all could be thought up along these lines...

[deadman]

Well these are all out of memory so lets see how I do.

brimstone, carbone and nitre are obviously sulfur, carbon, and potassium nitrate, spirit pyroacetic is very close to the modern also known as acetone
spirit of salts being HCl
H2O2... what do you mean isn't that what it has always been

In Chemistry we watched a video on dephlogisticated air and showing how mice living in it lived longer and what not. It's oxygen
I'd sound like a fool if this one is wrong but petrolatum=vaseline; it says it on some bottles. If they were to be mixed nothing would happen. Just contact of chemicals doesn't start a reaction. You'd have petroleum jelly in an oxygen rich atmosphere.

[Bert]

Try greasing the O-rings in an Oxygen system with "petrolatum" instead of the Oxygen rated silicone grease and see what happens...

How about "Oil of mirbain"? "Phillosopher's wool"?

[nbk2000]

Archaic chemistry names were so much more fun than the modern names we have.

Oil of Mirbane = Nitrobenzene (remember this from Black Book Vol1)

Philosphers Wool = Asbestos? (search reveals not)

[The_Duke]

Philosopher's wool is Zinc Oxide, I'm sure of this.

I agree, the archaic names of the alchemists' time are much more fun!

Oil of Vitriol, more commonly known as Sulfuric acid is one I have always liked.

[nbk2000]

Lunar Caustic = Silver Nitrate is my favorite.

[K9]

Here are some good ones - http://www.zompist.com/chemical.htm
You have to love "dephlogisticated air". And I personally am partial to "the green lion".

Some other interesting sites are:
http://chemistry.about.com/library/weekly/bl021104a.htm
http://www.chemsoc.org/viselements/pages/alchemist/alchemy.html

[Cobalt.45]

Good catch, Bert. Hell of a memory, deadman!

Here's an LE that might, quite literally, blow yer ass off: Moisture Resistant Black Powder Substitute, or "MRBPS".

It's constituents are KNO3 as the primary oxidizer, KCLO4 as the secondary oxidizer, phenolphthalein as the reducer (instead of charcoal), and ethyl cellulose used as a "process aid and binder".

Produces 798 kcal/g as opposed to 810 for BP.

Hint- check out the "fuel"...

[sirthomasthegreat]

Heh, If only the Palestinians would follow that advice. According to Time magazine dozens and dozens of Palestinians have died making AP for the suicide belts.

This is probably the worst first post I could do but I got a kick out of reading that. Seeing as they die anyway.