9/11 Third Anniversary Today

[Bugger]

As everyone knows, it is the third anniversary of 9-11 today.
Perpetrated by 19 Muslim Al Qaeda terrorists mostly from Afghanistan and
Saudi Arabia in the name of Dog-Spelled-Backwards, posing as aircraft
passengers and armed only with box-cutters, and their financial backers
- mostly the scores of phoney Muslim "charities" who claim to be
collecting for Muslim health/education/welfare but who really funnel the
donations to terrorists (Binnie's inherited fortune had really little to
do with it). The 9/11 death toll, just under 3,000, was, I think,
slightly more than that at Pearl Harbor on 7 Dec. 1941.

But, why is there so much controversy over such matters as the handling
of the emergency? WHY and how did all 19 hijackers pass through security
without the metal-detector alarms being set off by their box-cutters?
WHY were these crude implements sufficient to force all four pilots, on
presumed fear of death, away from the controls in their cockpits, all of
which had insecure doors?

WHY did the WTC Towers (along with Building 7 and the N.Y. Marriott
Hotel) collapse pancake-fashion so completely, even parts of them which
were unaffected by the impacts and fires (from which 20,000 other
occupants managed to escape to safety)? I saw in a TV documentary last
night, "Why Did The Towers Collapse", that it was mainly because of the
poor choice or design of trusses used as floor supports between the
inner and outer columns, used instead of solid I-beams to save weight,
their poor attachment to brackets on the inner and outer columns, and
especially their poor sprayed-asbestos insulation (which was applied
much more thinly than it was supposed to have been, was missing in
places, and in any case was much too easily knocked off by impact). The
extra weight of using solid I-beams as floor supports could have been
compensated for by using layers of floor concrete thinner than the 4
inches poured onto sheet steel placed on the floor supports, and if
necessary reduced by cutting circular holes in the central webs ogf the
I-beams at intervals.

Pure iron melts at 1,535ºC, and many structural steels melt at
substantially lower temperatures, typically about 1,350ºC. Would the
combustion of the kerosene jet aviation fuel, and of the combustible
contents of the WTC towers such as paper, plastic, carpets, furniture,
etc., with the limited air supply available inside the towers, have been
at temperatures above this?

According to Perrys Chemical Engineers Handbook, chapter 9, liquid
hydrocarbon fuels consistently have maximum flame temperatures of about
3,440ºF or 1,893ºC. This is over 300ºC higher than what the maximum
melting-point of the structural steel could have been, and 500ºC higher
than the most likely melting-point. But this is the combustion
temperature with an ample supply of air, which certainly was not the
case inside the WTC towers. This, plus the insulation encasing the steel
floor trusses, imperfect as it was, makes it rather doubtful that the
required melting-point could have been attained, certainly within the
period of only 1 to 1½ hours that it took for the towers to collapse
after impact.

Or perhaps the original building contractors in the late 1960s and early
1970s (the WTC Towers were completed in 1973) illegally "cut corners"
and failed to stick to the original structural design, e.g. by not using
as much cement in the concrete as they were supposed to have, not using
the required quantities of steel or else using structural steel members
of smaller cross-sections than designed, not using the proper amounts of
insulation on the steel, and using inferior and cheaper grades of steel?
Periodic inspections by building inspectors are supposed to prevent
these possibilities, but they can be concealed - or else the building
inspectors were bribed to overlook them. I doubt the post-911
investigators looked for all these possibilities. The speed with which
all the steel from the Towers was taken away and sold to foreign scrap
refiners, without a detailed examination, makes this hard to determine.

And, WHY were there no helicopters sent up with ropes and winches to
rescue people trapped in the floors above the impacts, or to give them
parachutes or 1,000-foot ropes strong enough for dozens of people to
abseil down (which could have been passed in through broken windows,
dangled from ropes)? WHY were obstacles set up on the roofs to prevent
helicopters landing (although helicopters could still have hovered
above)? Could rope nets have been strung up, or foam rubber or other
soft padding laid down, in time to catch people jumping from the
uppermost floors of the towers when they became too hot? WHY were 350
NYFD firemen so stupidly sent up the stairs of the Towers to their
deaths, against the flow of thousands of people fleeing the Towers, and
lugging heavy fire-hoses which were too short and which would have had
insufficient pressure at the tops of the Towers anyway? WHY could the
Towers not have been dosed with water from above by fire-fighting tanker
aircraft or helicopters with "monsoon buckets" (filled with water from
the nearby Hudson River or East River), which could have at least
postponed the collapses?

There was collusion by the U.S. Govt, alright. FBI agents were,
unusually forcefully, told in no uncertain terms not to investigate
suspicious activity and suspicious persons which were found later to be
concerned with planning 9/11, one being sacked; and CIA/NSA intelligence
data e.g. from routine communication intercepts which should have been
communicated to the President, the FBI, and local police and other
emergency services with a view to issuing public warnings was
deliberately ignored and suppressed. And WHY did Bu$h take so long (22
minutes) to be officially informed of the first hijack and impact while
he was speaking at the Booker School in Sarasota, Fl., which he was
visiting; and why did he not get going from the school for another 23
minutes? The USAF should have been scrambled immediately (it took about
half an hour for this), and all civilian planes ordered either not to
take off or to land at the nearest suitable airport (it took about an
hour for this), immediately the first hijacking occurred, and ordered to
shoot down (or at least fire small-caliber rounds through a side window
into the cockpit to kill the hijacker pilots) any hijacked planes which
refused to land at the nearest suitable airport. I also read somewhere
recently that some Israeli Government employees who happened to be in
the WTC towers received an urgent phone call (presumably from the Mossad
Secret Police) to "get out" just minutes before the first impact. And
what about the unusually large value of anonymous "put" options which
were placed on the futures markets for shares in the air-travel and
aircraft sectors just before 9/11, indicating someone expected massive
share price drops in these sectors? (The multimillion-$ profits from
them have so far never been collected, and I heard that at least some of
them had been traced back to the third-in-command of the CIA).

And, of course, the hijackers (and all the terrorists since, including
most recently in Russia) claimed to have hotlines to their false god who
told them to commit such terrible crimes as a jihad, and be rewarded by
going straight to Paradise with a choice of 72 virgins. It was more
likely their evil, spiritual-vampire imams, who so thoroughly
brainwashed them. A jihad against Islam, anyone?

Bugger.

[bipolar]

We now have been living in the "post 9/11 era/wolrd/america" for 3 years. Terrorism is definently a political tool of governments, not people. There will only be more and more government sponsored terrorism until we have no freedom left.

Some notes on what you wrote. It has been proven that there was demolition charges placed in the WTC towers to make them collapse. The seizmograph records show that there were multiple explosions just before the towers collapsed. Silverstein recently admitted that they themselves demolished WTC 7 which would mean they had to have placed the explosives in the building before 9/11. There were reports of melted steel being found all under the remains of the building. So it is pretty much confirmed that high explosives were used.

The presidential descision directive W199-EYE was the one that prevented FBI agents from investigating al queada 2 months before 9/11. John O'Neil leaked it to the BBC, i forgot the guys name. He resigned and got hired by a private security firm (which neil bush was on the board of directors) as head of security for the WTC. He died the first day on the job, 9/11.

The Israeli's working nearby that got notified in advance were employees of Odigo an Israeli based instant messaging company. The company gave the IP address of the person who sent the warning message to the government and of course fedgov didn't do anything with it.

Any way now we have the assault weapons ban expiring. I think it is too good to be true. They are going to let it expire so that they can stage a school shooting or something and then pass it again except A LOT stronger. They have too much to power to lose by letting the citizens arm themselves any longer.

[zeocrash]

i have to say that i dont think it would have been possible to save any/a significant number of people using helicopter.
you'd need close to 100 full helecopter loads to get everyone out.
To do this would require enormous planning. just as with fighting the fire from the air.
the ideas you suggest for saving people while being very nice, would have required alot of planning, something that is hard to do when it's for an unexpected event

[festergrump]

Some thought...


WHY were these crude implements sufficient to force all four pilots, on
presumed fear of death, away from the controls in their cockpits, all of
which had insecure doors?
Because the MAJORITY of sheeple (pilots and steward[esses] included) are non-confrontational and basically... pussies.

Or perhaps the original building contractors in the late 1960s and early
1970s (the WTC Towers were completed in 1973) illegally "cut corners"
and failed to stick to the original structural design...<SNIP>
This surprises you? Sure, it's been going on that long. I shudder to tell you what corners are cut worse than that in the building of the very house or apartment you live in. On a smaller scale, of course, but dangerous to you and yours, all the same.

And, WHY were there no helicopters sent up with ropes and winches to
rescue people trapped in the floors above the impacts, or to give them
parachutes or 1,000-foot ropes strong enough for dozens of people to
abseil down (which could have been passed in through broken windows,
dangled from ropes)
It'd have to be one hell of a helicopter to handle the weight of littleraly HUNDREDS of people dangling on the ropes at one time. Don't think for a second that anyone would stop to wonder if the heli could hold the weight of a couple dozen or up to a hundred. They're gonna jump for that rope and hold on for life, probably holding on to legs of others with a secure grip. How many seconds do you think it would take for that rope to drag the heli into the building causing even more damage and chaos? Even if this was a possibly feasable rescue measure and they had 4-6 helis, how many could they have saved?

Could rope nets have been strung up, or foam rubber or other
soft padding laid down, in time to catch people jumping from the
uppermost floors of the towers when they became too hot?
Rope nets? Maybe. Foam rubber or soft padding? Why? To bounce the pink mist unto the faces of the soon to be?

WHY could the Towers not have been dosed with water from above by fire-fighting tanker aircraft or helicopters with "monsoon buckets" (filled with water from the nearby Hudson River or East River), which could have at least
postponed the collapses?
Because it would more than likely do no more than spread the remaining aircraft fuel which was already afire. This tactic works on forrest fires and little else. Even then it seems to merely slow the progress. Fires this hot would turn water to a nice comfortable humidity and little else. What floors could they douse with this water? Maybe the topmost, but little good that would do, eh?

And WHY did Bu$h take so long (22
minutes) to be officially informed of the first hijack and impact while
he was speaking at the Booker School in Sarasota, Fl., which he was
visiting; and why did he not get going from the school for another 23
minutes? The USAF should have been scrambled immediately (it took about
half an hour for this)<SNIP>
This isn't going to turn into another Bush sucks, vote for Kerry thing, I hope. :rolleyes: I'll advise you against that if your intentions are rooted. If YOU were the president, you could surely do better, eh? A couple of MAJOR catostrophes happen in various states within minutes, one of which happens to be to the Pentagon and you expect to teleport (from the school where you are speaking) to Air Force 1 and take off in less than 20 minutes. I think 22 minutes was GREAT time! Bet ANY president could do a 6 minute mile after that (WITH the secret service in TOW!).

And what about the unusually large value of anonymous "put" options which
were placed on the futures markets for shares in the air-travel and
aircraft sectors just before 9/11, indicating someone expected massive
share price drops in these sectors? (The multimillion-$ profits from
them have so far never been collected, and I heard that at least some of
them had been traced back to the third-in-command of the CIA).
Can't dispute you there. Ever heard of "the Great Depression" and a man called Rockefeller? Who votes FOR anyone anymore. We vote for the lesser of two evils, don't we?

Your post was informative, Bugger, just wanted to point out some things that came to mind.

At any rate, today we mourn the dead. It was a tragedy no matter how you look at it.

[Anthony]

The fire doesn't have to be hot enough to melt steel, just to soften it. A few hundred degrees could be sufficient for that, depending how stressed the steel is in normal conditions. I agree that the support brackets for the floor trusses did not look very substantial.

If the towers were brought down with explosives then it was cleverly done. As the point of collapse clearly starts where the aircraft struck. So every few floors would have to to have been wired, and then only the appropriate charges detonated, to match the aircraft impact site. Also, I don't recall hearing any explosions on the news footage, immediately prior to collapse.

I think the camp david plane was shot down. Some people claim that pieces of turbine blades were found several miles perpendicular to the flight path. I.e. they had been shot out sideways before the plane dived and crashed. Apparently this is usually caused by the explosion of an engine when struck by a missile. The missiles homing in to the heat signiture of the engines.

The pentagon "crash" is definitely suspicious. For those who haven't seen already, take a look at these pictures: http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm

The reason that the firefighters went up into the tower was in attempt to fight the blaze. They were simply following standard operating procedure at the time.

The reason no one was saved from the towers was because only a 90 minute time window was available. In emergencies, that time goes very fast. Where would you get several thousand 1000ft ropes and how would you deliver them in an hour? Or aquire a giant net, and organise putting it up? These things aren't kept on standby!

The reason no one assailed the terrorists is because prior experiences was that you keep quiet, cooperate, and eventually you get to go home to your family. I'm sure the terrorists promised this. Yes, several dozen unarmed men can overpower 3 mad mullahs with box knives, perhaps even without serious injury. But think of the layout of a plane - narrow isles that only allow single file. No one is going to want to be the one at the front! Also, if you charge, who says taht anyone will follow and help? You stand a good chance of making what turns out to be a defiant, yet solo charge, and ends up with you getting your throat cut whilst your expected backup stays frozen to their seats like dear in headlights.

[2,4,6-TNP]

Well Hell,

In my opinion, And I was watching a live broadcast when the second plane hit. I think that there is no conspiracy; as there never is ie. Oklahoma city, Waco ECT. ECT. The way things truly happen in this world is simple: Usually one man in his heart concieves an idea that is consistant with
his moral dispositions. He thinks to himself: I believe this is good for me, I believe this is right and it will be justified before the God I serve. He plots in his heart and he makes his calculations. He imagines his plans in his head as he expects they will happen. If he is satisfied that the people he trusts will help him to fulfill his plan and he believes they will support him he will reveal his ideas to them( that is if he believes he cannot fulfill his plans on his own),If they agree and do not reject the plans set before them they will try and put the plan in motion. As it has been reported Osama bin Laden didn't think the towers would collapse although he rationally thought it was possible. So as you can see Osama didn't get exactly what he anticipated but he did in a way get what he wanted. What does this all truly mean? If a man makes a plan like this and he suceeds is it truly God's will or why did God allow it?Over 2700 People dead, and in our response to these actions over 1000 american soldiers are dead as well. Also the countries we attacked have felt our military might. Wich is death and destruction. What does all this mean to a mere man such as my self? Am I to conclude that Justice has been done? Has Gods will been done? Is it the wicked or the righteous who have truly perished in this calamity. Will all these questions go unanswered?

P.S. I quit smoking on september 11 of this year, I feel alive! I feel Renewed! Like I have a new life! I am no longer a slave of my addiction, I am free! Will someone in the forum congradulate me?

[knowledgehungry]

Heheh me too! Congratulations. But I'm sure i'll end up smoking by the end of school today. I think naming September 11 Patriots day was a very dumb idea. Anyone else agree.

[festergrump]

Congrats on the quitting smoking to the both of you. Good luck with that, really.

Don't worry about the "Patriots Day" thing, KH. It won't be long before enough muds protest and have it renamed after some Super-Mud... Try Washington or Jackson Day on for size. Bad enough there's a whole month of TV broadcasting dedicated to "black achievement" here in the USA (they DID something...YAY!). If one black janitor with the education of a 2nd grader died in the 9-11 attack----> JACKSON DAY. You'd think Eli Whitney would be MOST appreciated by them with a day in his honour ("nah, him be a cracka!"). :rolleyes:

[thrall]

Just on side note: I remember of story I read long time ago about a plane hijacking.
Quote:
" The pilot quitely followed what hijacker demamded BECAUSE he was instructed to abide by hijacker ina hijacking scenario by the company."

That is the reason we have no incident whatsoever of PILOTS resisting hijacking :( .

On yet another side note: Why to mourn on the dead citizen of country whose father( Washington) distributed smallpox pus infected blanckets to the natives of that country (they are extinct now anyway and thats the way the country came into existance)?...................never mind me :) .

Congantulations to those who quit smocking, I for one thing cound not ( I tried though :( )

[Bugger]

Just on side note: I remember of story I read long time ago about a plane hijacking. Quote:
" The pilot quitely followed what hijacker demamded BECAUSE he was instructed to abide by hijacker in a hijacking scenario by the company."
That is the reason we have no incident whatsoever of PILOTS resisting hijacking.

What a damn fool thing to do - obey hijackers armed only with boxcutters!! The pilots would have had the perfect right, under well-established legal precedents, to disregard any orders given them if the orders were intrinsically, or their execution in any particular instance was, in any way unlawful or immoral, either civilly or criminally; for example if obeying the orders would have been against the interests of the passengers or the wider public interest, as was the case on 9/11. The passengers or their estates, and members of the public affected, or their insurers on paying out, should be able to sue the airlines for making their pilots obey such orders which were clearly unlawful in this instance, as well as for negligence by way of lax security. 9/11 was certainly just such a case where such disobedience of orders would have been legally justified.

Those pilots, with their copilots, could have overpowered the Muslim hijackers who they knew to be armed only with boxcutters (a very ineffective weapon, really - the brittle blades break very easily), if necessary by calling out for passengers to help them over the intercoms on the planes. It nearly succeeded, in the case of the plane that crashed in a field in Pennsylvania, while on its way to be crashed into the Houses of Congress, when the passengers and crew overpowered the hijackers but were too late to stop the hijacker pilot from throwing the plane into a rapid dive. (Witnesses saw it flying "erratically" just before it dived). And why were the cockpit doors not locked, and equipped with small sight-glasses to enable anyone trying to enter to be seen, in each plane hijacked?

Bugger.

[bipolar]

Look at WTC-7 being demolished. Tell me this isn't controlled demolitions. This is a video. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html The largest firefighters engineering magazine was pissed off wondering how the hell those towers could have collapsed and the wreckage wasn't allowed to be examined to see how it happened. One of the designers of the WTC came out and said its impossible for a plane to knock the towers down. It was specifically designed to withstand a 747. Do some research. Read a lot more about the collapse of the twin towers here http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/trusstheory.html

It is almost impossible to do all the research to know all there is about what happened. I spent about a year starting 1 month after 9/11 reading articles from mainstream to small time about 9/11 for 8 hours a day usually. I was in the fortunate position of only having to work 1 hour a day running an online business so I had the time to waste. I just had to know what really happened. About half way through I started to try to prove to myself that it wasn't a conspiracy of any kind. I just couldn't do it.

The Carlyle Group, a group of select defense contractors of which the minimum investment is 10million dollars. The majority holders in the carlyle group are the Bush family and the Bin Laden family. The carlyle group's value went up 50% immediately following 9/11. I have learned to find out who is responsible for things is you have to look to see who benifited and that is usually who is responsible. I mean jesus, on 9/11/1991 George Bush Sr. announced the coming of the new world order to the world on live tv.


Now I am not saying that it is all bush's fault or that I like Kerry, they are pretty much the same thing. They are actually second cousins both related to the queen of england, and in Yale's Order of the Skull & Bones, they even admit that on mainstream tv.

[thrall]

What a damn fool thing to do - obey hijackers armed only with boxcutters!! The pilots would have had the perfect right, under well-established legal precedents, to disregard any orders given them if the orders were intrinsically, or their execution in any particular instance was, in any way unlawful or immoral, either civilly or criminally; for example if obeying the orders would have been against the interests of the passengers or the wider public interest, as was the case on 9/11. The passengers or their estates, and members of the public affected, or their insurers on paying out, should be able to sue the airlines for making their pilots obey such orders which were clearly unlawful in this instance, as well as for negligence by way of lax security. 9/11 was certainly just such a case where such disobedience of orders would have been legally justified.

If that is the case than Why the insurance agencies are not sueing the airlines? There are norms set by accord of even government. There have been lots of hijaking incidents back in 80's by palestinian terrorist groups supported by russian intelligence infrastructure. After fall of russia these incidents have been infrequent.
And yes! if pilots would have resisted even overpowered the hijackers he would have lost his JOB:(. IIRC there has been such a case and pilot was "layed off". Be familiar with the world of reality! people officially get punished for doing right thing by breaking "the law". There are numorous incidents in history. The best I remember is of General Francois of germany in first world war. He broke the oerders twice that lead to complete destruction of General Samsosonov's army group or in other words half of attacking russian army.
He was DEMOTED.
And in case of privet firms there are other ways of "firing". So the best is to keep your head low or you will be fired one way or "the other".
I've read a lot about CT's(Conspiracy theory) about WTC but hay! don't you remember the thread discussing about CT in NICK BURG video? What happened to it? What about all the POINTS and FACTS that were suggesting a foul play? Or do I need quote from the thread?
After the release of half a dozen more videos the theory evaporated or what?
Thats the way it goes. OBL took the responsibility, isn't that enough. And at times reality is simpler than theory. We have numorous examples in history of how one man can do this or that.

[bipolar]

There is no good facts in the nick berg theories, I don't pay attention to theories. There are facts in the world trade center demolition. The truss theory mentioned above is only a theory. The fact is steel trusses with a single 5/8" bolt were not used in the construction of the world trade towers. If you read the link I posted you would know that. There is 4 huge steel beams surrounded by concrete designed so that the whole building could be on fire and it would give firefighters 4 hours before it is possible to collapse.

There are so many fake conspiracy theories put out by the government called "strawmen" so that they can prove those wrong and it discredits the whole idea of a conspiracy to most people. I dont pay any attention to conspiracy theories tho, I stay away from them. I only go with facts.

What about the historical examples of fake terror to gain power. Like hitler secretly ordering his storm troopers to set fire to the reichstagg then blaming it on his political enemies and holding mass arrests and using the event to consolidate power. What about nero burning rome while he fiddled and blaming it on the christians , then the non christians had no problem butally murdering all the christians. Its been used time after time in history by leaders , governments of all kinds.

The problem is people in these days don't know history, and that is why we are repeating it now. I suggest you read the articleFake Terror - The Road to Dictatorship (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/) at least. The government, the public school system, the mainstream media would have you believe that criminal conspiracy played no part in history at all, and its simply not true.

Here is a quote from caesar for you to think about.
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
-- Julius Caesar

[Bugger]

If that is the case than Why the insurance agencies are not sueing the airlines? There are norms set by accord of even government. There have been lots of hijaking incidents back in 80's by palestinian terrorist groups supported by russian intelligence infrastructure. After fall of russia these incidents have been infrequent. And yes! if pilots would have resisted even overpowered the hijackers he would have lost his JOB:(. IIRC there has been such a case and pilot was "layed off". (cut).
I am fairly sure that the insurance companies who paid out as the result of 9/11 are, in fact, suing the airlines concerned in 9/11 - where they have not already filed for bankruptcy! - along with the airport operators. The airlines' and airport operators' own public liability insurers would pay out any awards adjudged against them. (BTW Since 9/11, many types of insurance policies, on their renewal, now exclude acts of terrorism as insured risks.).

As for the hypothetical liability of the 9/11 pilots' losing their jobs if they had disobeyed what had become unlawful orders (in the circumstances), and had successfully overpowered the hijackers (with the aid of passengers) and landed safely: the doctrine of immunity from any sort of penalty for disobeying unlawful or immoral orders (whether intrinsically so, or as the result of the circumstances of a particular instance) is well established in common law in New Zealand, Australia, Europe, and the U.K.. If what you say is true, I would be very surprised that the law in the U.S.A. is so radically different.

Bugger.

[nbk2000]

Congrats 2,4,6-TNP! :p

What's so patriotic about dying? If the people in the WTC had been fighting a close-quaters battle with an army of invading ragheads who then demolished the building rather than accepting defeat, then that'd be heroic.

Standing around the water cooler ;), talking shit about the boss, and being incinerated in the next instant, isn't at all heroic, or even patriotic, it's just one of the curveballs life throws at you.

Hey! I've got an idea! Let's create "Brewers Day" in commeration of all the people who've died from alcohol poisoning, murders, and drunken accidents! :) I'm sure "The People" would be behind this. ;)

[Sarevok]

I've found something relevant to this thread:

Bin Laden's last speech (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdonlyres/79C6AF22-98FB-4A1C-B21F-2BC36E87F61F/53232/Binladin.asf) was translated to english. You can read it here (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/79C6AF22-98FB-4A1C-B21F-2BC36E87F61F.htm).