My expedient smg

[xload]

I bought "expedient 9mm sumbachine gun" book by P.A Luty and I'm making this smg.
My webpage is http://es.geocities.com/subfusil_asalto/
Please send me ideas or comments.
thanks

[tdog49]

I was wondering when you'd come back...
I am really looking forward to pics and possibly a movie showing it firing when you finish the smg. till then good luck and keep us posted.

[aikon]

Nice to see that you're back xload. I check your page regularly to see if there's any progress. Good Luck.

[Trigger Mike]

Is there any chance of being able to scan the book and make it availlable for download?Is it on the FTP already?I'd be interested in reading it and following your project to see how it turns out,xload.Good luck.

[aikon]

To Trigger Mike: The book can be found on the FTP in the Weapon's folder. Its about 33MB.

[xload]

I read a lof ot books about homemade weapons, but Luty books are really a homemade weapon, luty weapons are very easy to make.
I only needed a lathe for a few pieces, beacuse i can't found some pieces in Spain and to make the barrel (I bought a blank rifled barrel in Ebay, arround $ 30 us)
I'm making some parts to the bolt, beacuse it's the most important piece (with the barrel) and i'm making it carefully.
I will put at my webpage and roguesci ftp the test firing video beacuse i can't found any videos or pictures of this improvised weapon.

[MMIV]

I was thinking of making the smg in .22 instead of 9mm, cuz the ammo in the Oz would b hard 2 get and attract attention cuz they r 4 handgun, which u need a license.

On the other hand i thought of making cases from metal/brass rod in lathe.

[tdog49]

trigger,
1. You can also purchase the book here:
http://www.paladin-press.com/
2. And there is a .32/.380 version here:
http://www.thehomegunsmith.com/bookadvert.html
3. bonus! #2 link has plans for single shot silenced .22lr and single shot 12ga pistol for free.

MMIV,
1. Bill Holmes has a .22lr book that can be found on the ftp or at the 1st link above.
2. wont say that making your own cases is a bad idea,but.... it is TMW.
Too Much Work..... Your looking at CNC type tolerances that you'll have to keep too. If you can afford CNC machinery, you can afford 9mm brass.....(licensed or not)

[xload]

trigger,
1. You can also purchase the book here:
http://www.paladin-press.com/
2. And there is a .32/.380 version here:
http://www.thehomegunsmith.com/bookadvert.html
3. bonus! #2 link has plans for single shot silenced .22lr and single shot 12ga pistol for free.

MMIV,
1. Bill Holmes has a .22lr book that can be found on the ftp or at the 1st link above.
2. wont say that making your own cases is a bad idea,but.... it is TMW.
Too Much Work..... Your looking at CNC type tolerances that you'll have to keep too. If you can afford CNC machinery, you can afford 9mm brass.....(licensed or not)

Bill Homes weapons are very very difficult to make (you need a milling machine, a lathe, a lot of patient and time)
P.A luty guns are really expedient guns.

I live in spain (here it's ilegal buy or sell weapons or ammo) but i bought some army bullets (friends or firends of firneds ;) arroun $6 50 box )

[shadow2501]

i agree with MMIV a .22 is more useful in many countries it's the only ammo that should be legally bought by thousands without attracting attention but isn't there instructions at the end of book for making other caliber barrels?

[MMIV]

isn't there instructions at the end of book for making other caliber barrels?

yes there is but you would need to do modifications to the mag,spring and the the upper and lower receiver so they feed correctly. Which this is no probelms and this modification will make the smg more useful intead of being a paper weight.

[THAT Dude]

If you want to by a barrel you should go to http://www.centerfiresystems.com/index.htm
They sell parts kits for many different guns(calibers) with good rifled barrels.
I bot a sten gun parts kit to make into a blank fireing submachine gun.
Then when it got to me I relised that I just mail ordered a rifled barrel no questions asked. :p It had never doned me be for how easy it is to order a chambered barrel. ;) (sten gun parts kit are no longer listed but you can still order them #64STEN ... $39.97) Hope this is of use to someone.

[raptor1956]

I was thinking of making the smg in .22 instead of 9mm

I agree with rounds being hard to get in Oz but they are about if you look. The problem with building Luty's weapon in .22 would be eliminating hang-ups with the .22LR case during feeding. Bill Holmes claims to have eliminated this with his bolt design, but then you are getting right away from Luty's concept for a truly homemade smg and starting to add lathe and milling proceedures to the project.

[ozboy]

If you have a cat B licence in OZ, you should probably look at making it to fire .38 special ammo.

This shouldn't arouse suspision because there are leaver action rifles which fire .357 magnum / .38 special ammo.

If you have a cat A, or no licence, consider yourself stuffed, or if you're not a prohibited person, go and get a cat B licence.

Then you can buy as much ammo as you want, just tell them your going on a long hunting trip up north and need to stock up.

[Jacks Complete]

Sadly, the .38/.357 and .44 are/is a rimmed cartridge, same as the .22, so the feeding issues remain. This is why they are in use for U/L rifles, rather than semi.s. 9mm or .45 on the other hand might be available, either from military or police ranges.

[ozboy]

Jacks Complete is right about the feeding problem issue, especially in full auto. You might be able to get away with it in a semi-auto.

To add to the problem of trying to make P.A. Luttys desing into .22 rimfire, you would have to use a different (lighter) spring and breech block.

[festergrump]

The only problem I can foresee with the problem of rimmed ammo for a full auto would be finding high capacity magazines, especially in the calibers mentioned above (and possibly extending the feed ramp to make it less obtuse of an angle?).

The 7.62 X 54R is rimmed and was employed by the Ruskies in FA applications for quite some time, IIRC. If not FA, then definitely semi-auto, but not much difference when bump firing, something which has been done with rimmed rounds very often.

Care still needed to be taken when loading these to ensure the rim of the top round was not behind that of the cartridge beneath it or a jam would be inevitable.

Making your own mags could be troublesome to the DIYer, but not out of the question entirely. A much tighter radius would be needed for the mag, I think, giving it more of a 'banana' look in design. I'm seeing that the Ruger 10-22 FA conversion has been working well for many for a long time, and while it employs a funky rotary wheel at the top of the magazine it can easily be found in hicap models. Seems possible, at least.

Joining of two or more magazines to increase ammo capacity via MIG or TIG welding is something that has often been accomplished in the past, too. Smooth insides and much longer custom spring are a must, but the original follower can be used. [EDIT: No longer speaking of Ruger 10-22 mags here... They're made of plastic. Many others arent, though.

My whole point is that .22LR FA or other rimmed round FA is very do-able, you just need to think outside the box a little bit and not need to rely on following Mr. Luty's designs exactly. Modification and experimentation are devine... neccesity is the mother of invention, ect, ect... You can see examples of invention overcoming caliber obstacles in these three links (though sadly no examples of rimmed rounds):
1 (http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13385&highlight=9mm), 2 (http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13861), 3 (http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14401)]

Just some thoughts...

[ozboy]

Would the banana magazine work with the rounds stacked or would they have to be on top of each other?

The Bren .303 Mark IV Light Machine Gun uses .303. British rimed ammo, but I dont know how the ammo sits in the mag. (I'm assuming its stacked).

Has anyone seen inside one of these mags?


They also use 100 round drum. This could be another option.

[Dank$taVegas]

I will put at my webpage and roguesci ftp the test firing video beacuse i can't found any videos or pictures of this improvised weapon.
Well it's been more than a year and there seems to be no updates here, and the site posted doesn't seem to contain any information on the build or your so called gun. :confused:

Is xload still a member here, and if so have you actually made any progress on your so called gun build up, would be nice to see & hear of your progress if any was made.

Has anyone on this site attempted or completed any of P A Luty's plans?

[akinrog]

Well it's been more than a year and there seems to be no updates here, and the site posted doesn't seem to contain any information on the build or your so called gun. :confused:

Is xload still a member here, and if so have you actually made any progress on your so called gun build up, would be nice to see & hear of your progress if any was made.

Has anyone on this site attempted or completed any of P A Luty's plans?

I'm occassionally in contact with him. He completed his SMG even reactivated a deactivated catme (sp?) machine gun. However AFAIK he is in the school busy. HTH.

[Dank$taVegas]

He completed his SMG even reactivated a deactivated catme (sp?) machine gun. However AFAIK he is in the school busy.

Well that sucks for us here. Would have been nice to hear from him or anyone else about the details involved in building this gun, see some test fires/pictures and find out other information he would have to offer us here at the forums.

[nbk2000]

Wouldn't that be CETME, the spanish predecessor to the HK91?

[neo-crossbow]

Would the banana magazine work with the rounds stacked or would they have to be on top of each other?


Since your in Oz you can pick up 25 round butler creek clear plastic mags with steel lips from Cleaver Fire-arms at margate in qld for $60. They are for the 10/22 ruger.

I mail ordered a couple and built a project to find that they are cheap as chips and feed .22lr cleanly into a blowback operated thingo....

I did find however that I had to move my ejector a little closer then in the plans I had seen to ensure propper ejection, but this could be because of the ejection port, placement of mag well, stroke of bolt or any other varying factor in my hand tool skills.

[akinrog]

Wouldn't that be CETME, the spanish predecessor to the HK91?

Yes it's CETME. He even sent me pictures, however I cannot dig out the picture from these several file stashes.

He actually deviated from the Luty's design and purchased a blank barrel and have it chambered by one of his friends and install it on the SMG.

Actually I must contact him to encourage him to report here.

[ozboy]

Thanks for the tip neo-crossbow.

Do you know if you need a cat "c" licence to buy these mags, since the are semi-auto.? Or NO licence at all?

[Dank$taVegas]

He actually deviated from the Luty's design and purchased a blank barrel and have it chambered by one of his friends and install it on the SMG.
If I remember correctly in some of P A Luty's books, he suggest that the reader purchases a barrel with rifling as an alternative to making your own out of steel tubing & steel collars. This would increase the accuracy of the SMG to a degree, and stop the tumbling of the bullet in flight making the gun design much better. But with a SMG slinging lead downrange, accuracy is not as important as a reliable gun tossing as much lead at the desired target as possible. This will definitely make up for the lack of accuracy in the long run.

But when building a project like this, if you have access to purchase a barrel with rifling (which is fairly easy & cheap in most countries) or have the means to make your own barrel why not build the project to the best of your abilities, and improve upon the gun where it can be improved upon. The gun will be that much better.

Actually I must contact him to encourage him to report here.
That would be nice if he dropped in once in a while to spread some of his knowledge about the projects he has completed, it would be very beneficial to people here on the forums who may be interested in attempting a project like this, or just wanted to learn more about P A Luty's plans being put into action. But most of us know how time consuming school can be.

[neo-crossbow]

Thanks for the tip neo-crossbow.

Do you know if you need a cat "c" licence to buy these mags, since the are semi-auto.? Or NO licence at all?

As they aren't considered a part you need no liscence at all, nor will they ask for one. They also fit onto lever action rugers that are cat (a) anyway. BTW it would take a cat (c) semi auto rimfire to a cat (d) because of the capacity

You will get them without any paper work, just give them a call and ask them what they would like for postage.

Call: (07) 3883 1733 and tell them you are afer a butler creek clear 25 round 10/22 mag and they will know what your on about.

good luck and hope to see the results oneday online

[1petmonster]

If you have any shooters licence reguardless of state etc, you can purchase high capacity magazines in QLD without worry! They also have a large selection of Owen,Sten,Thommy etc on hand.

Also Sterling M20 magazines work great on rocker, and if you had a Gevarm (befor you handed it in) they worked great on the select conversion.

[Arisaka]

I only needed a lathe for a few pieces, beacuse i can't found some pieces in Spain and to make the barrel (I bought a blank rifled barrel in Ebay, arround $ 30



Ever thought of using a .22 air rifle barrel?
These are legal to have in most if not all european countries.

[inventorgp]

Inventorgp’s Magna Carta gun

To all the so called gun licence experts (in Queensland);

First of all:

Category A weapons
(1) Each of the following is a category A weapon if it has not
been rendered permanently inoperable—
(a) a miniature cannon under 120cm in barrel length that is
a black powder and muzzle loading cannon, depicting a
scale model of an historical artillery piece or naval gun;
(b) an air rifle;
(c) a blank-fire firearm at least 75cm in length;
(d) a rimfire rifle (other than a self-loading rimfire rifle);
(e) a single or double barrel shotgun;
(f) a powerhead.
(2) A conversion unit is also a category A weapon.
(3) In this section—
conversion unit means a unit or device or barrel that is
capable of being used for converting a category A weapon
that is a firearm from one calibre to another calibre.


Category B weapons
(1) Each of the following is a category B weapon if it has not
been rendered permanently inoperable—
(a) a muzzle-loading firearm;
(b) a single shot centre fire rifle;
(c) a double barrel centre fire rifle;
(d) a repeating centre fire rifle;
(e) a break action shotgun and rifle combination.
(2) A conversion unit is also a category B weapon.
(3) In this section—
conversion unit means a unit or device or barrel that is
capable of being used for converting a category B weapon that
is a firearm from one calibre to another calibre.

Category C weapons
Each of the following is a category C weapon if it has not
been rendered permanently inoperable—
(a) a semiautomatic rimfire rifle with a magazine capacity
no greater than 10 rounds;
(b) a semiautomatic shotgun with a magazine capacity no
greater than 5 rounds;
(c) a pump action shotgun with a magazine capacity no
greater than 5 rounds.

Category D weapons
(1) Each of the following is a category D weapon—
(a) a self-loading centre fire rifle designed or adapted for
military purposes or a firearm that substantially
duplicates a rifle of that type in design, function or
appearance;
(b) a non-military style self-loading centre fire rifle with
either an integral or detachable magazine;
(c) a self-loading shotgun with either an integral or
detachable magazine with a capacity of more than 5
rounds and a pump action shotgun with a capacity of
more than 5 rounds;
(d) a self-loading rimfire rifle with a magazine capacity of
more than 10 rounds.
(2) Subsection (1) applies to a weapon mentioned in the
subsection even if the weapon is permanently inoperable.

Category E weapons
A bulletproof vest or protective body vest or body armour designed to
prevent the penetration of small arms projectiles is a category E weapon.

Category H weapons
(1) A firearm, including an air pistol and a blank-fire firearm, under
75 cm in length, other than a powerhead, is a category H weapon, regardless
of whether it has been rendered permanently inoperable.
(2) A conversion unit is also a category H weapon.
(3) This section does not apply to a powerhead or category C, D or
R weapon.
(4) In this section—
“conversion unit” means a unit or device or barrel that is capable of being
used for converting a category H weapon that is a firearm from one
calibre to another calibre.

Category H weapon classes
For schedule 22 of the Act, each of the following comprises a class of
category H weapon—
(a) an air pistol;
(b) a centre-fire pistol with a calibre of not more than .38 inch or a
black-powder pistol;
(c) a centre-fire pistol with a calibre of more than .38 inch but not
more than .45 inch;
(d) a rim-fire pistol.

Category M weapons
Each of the following is a category M weapon—
(a) any clothing, apparel, accessory or article designed to disguise any
weapon or other cutting or piercing instrument capable of causing
bodily harm;
(b) any of the following that is primarily designed for the control of
native or feral animals—
(i) an antipersonnel gas of a corrosive, noxious or irritant nature
or that is capable of causing bodily harm and any weapon
capable of discharging the gas by any means;
(ii) an antipersonnel substance of a corrosive, noxious or irritant
nature or that is capable of causing bodily harm and any
weapon capable of discharging the substance by any means;
(c) any knife so designed or constructed so as to be used as a weapon
that while the knife is held in 1 hand, the blade may be released by
that hand;
(d) any clothing, apparel, adornment or accessory designed for use as
a weapon or a cutting or piercing instrument capable of causing
bodily harm;
(e) any incendiary or inflammable device containing any substance
capable of causing bodily harm or damage to property that is
primarily designed for vegetation management;
(f) any pistol crossbow designed to be discharged by the use of
1 hand (that is not a toy pistol crossbow) that when discharged is
capable of causing damage or injury to property or capable of
causing bodily harm;
(g) any crossbow designed to be discharged by the use of 2 hands
that, when discharged, is capable of causing damage or injury to
property or capable of causing bodily harm;
(h) a chinese throwing iron that is a hard non-flexible plate having
3 or more radiating points with 1 or more sharp edges in the shape
of a polygon, trefoil, cross, star, diamond or geometric shape and
constructed or designed to be thrown as a weapon;
(i) a flail or similar device constructed and designed as a weapon
consisting of in part a striking head and which, if used offensively
against a person, is capable of causing bodily harm;
(j) a device known as a ‘manrikiguisari’ or ‘kusari’, consisting of a
length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at each end to a
geometrically shaped weight or handgrip and constructed or
designed for use as a weapon;
(k) a device known as a knuckleduster or any device made or
adapted for use as a knuckleduster and which, if used offensively
against a person, is capable of causing bodily harm;
(l) a weighted glove designed or constructed to be used as a weapon;
(m) a mace or any similar article (other than a ceremonial mace made
for and used solely as a symbol of authority on ceremonial
occasions);
(n) any device, not a toy, constructed or designed as a telescopic
baton, the extension of which is actuated by the operation of a
mechanical trigger.


Category R weapons
Each of the following is a category R weapon—
(a) a machine gun or submachine gun that is fully automatic in its
operation and actuated by energy developed when it is being fired
or has multiple revolving barrels, and any replica or facsimile of a
machine gun or submachine gun that is not a toy;
(b) a unit or device that is capable of being used for converting any
firearm to a weapon mentioned in paragraph (a);
(c) a firearm capable of firing 50 calibre BMG cartridge ammunition;
(d) an antipersonnel gas, and an antipersonnel substance, of a
corrosive, noxious or irritant nature or that is capable of causing
bodily harm, and any weapon capable of discharging the gas or
substance by any means, other than a gas or substance and any
weapon capable of discharging the gas or substance that is
primarily designed for the control of native or feral animals;
(e) an acoustical antipersonnel device of an intensity that is capable of
causing bodily harm;
(f) an electrical antipersonnel device of an intensity that is capable of
causing bodily harm;
(g) a hand grenade, other than an inert hand grenade, and an
antipersonnel mine;

(h) a silencer or other device or contrivance made or used, or capable
of being used or intended to be used, for reducing the sound
caused by discharging a firearm;
(i) a rocket launcher, recoilless rifle, antitank rifle, a bazooka or a
rocket propelled grenade type launcher;
(j) a mortar, all artillery and any incendiary or inflammable device
containing any substance capable of causing bodily harm or
damage to property, other than an incendiary or inflammable
device primarily designed for vegetation management.

Restricted items (Act, s 67)
The following items are restricted items for section 673 of the Act—
(a) handcuffs, thumbcuffs or other similar restraints;
(b) nunchaku or kung-fu sticks or any similar device which consists
of 2 hard non-flexible sticks, clubs, pipes or rods connected by a
length of rope, cord, wire or chain constructed or designed to be
used in connection with the practice of a system of self-defence
and which if used offensively against a person is or are capable of
causing bodily harm;
(c) a billy club, a baton or any device constructed or designed as a
telescopic baton, not being a toy or a category M weapon, that if
used is capable of causing bodily harm;
(d) any studded glove which if used offensively against a person is
capable of causing bodily harm.

Firearms licence—category C rifle and category C
shotgun for occupational rural purpose on rural land
(1) A person who, in the conduct of the person’s business or
employment on rural land, has a need for 1 category C rifle or
1 category C shotgun, or both, for a rural purpose, may apply
for a firearms licence with an endorsement for 1 category C
rifle or 1 category C shotgun or both.
(2) A person who, in the conduct of the person’s business or
employment on rural land, has a need for more than 1
category C rifle and 1 category C shotgun for a rural purpose,
may apply for a firearms licence with an endorsement for
more than 1 category C rifle and 1 category C shotgun.
(3) However, a person may apply under subsection (2) only if the
need arises because of the area or location of the land
involved.
(4) An authorised officer may issue a licence endorsed under
subsection (1) or (2) only if the authorised officer is satisfied
the applicant’s need for the firearm can not be satisfied in
another way.
(5) A licence endorsed under subsection (1) authorises the
licensee to possess and use—
(a) 1 category C rifle; or
(b) 1 category C shotgun; or
(c) 1 category C rifle and 1 category C shotgun;
stated on the licence, but only to satisfy the need stated on the
licence.
(6) For subsection (2), an authorised officer may endorse the
licence with the number of category C rifles or shotguns the
authorised officer decides is reasonably necessary to satisfy
the applicant’s need.
(7) A licence endorsed under subsection (2) authorises the
licensee to possess and use the number of category C rifles
and category C shotguns endorsed on the licence, but only to
satisfy the need stated on the licence.

Firearms licence—1 category C weapon for occupational
fisher
(1) A person who, in the conduct of the person’s business as, or
employment by, a commercial fisher, has a need on a
particular vessel, for 1 category C weapon may apply for a
firearms licence with an endorsement for the weapon.
(2) An authorised officer may issue a licence endorsed under
subsection (1) only if the authorised officer is satisfied the
applicant’s need for the firearm can not be satisfied in another
way.
(3) A licence endorsed under subsection (1) authorises the
licensee to possess and use the single category C weapon
stated on the licence, but only to satisfy the need stated on the
licence.
(4) In this section—
commercial fisher means the holder of a commercial fisher
licence under the Fisheries Act 1994.

Firearms licence—1 category D firearm for occupational
culling of animals
(1) A person who, in the conduct of the person’s business or
employment (whether or not in primary production), has a
need for a category D weapon to cull animals may apply for a
firearms licence with an endorsement for 1 category D
weapon.
(2) The licence authorises the licensee to possess and use 1
category D weapon, but only to satisfy the need stated on the
licence.
(3) The licence must state the area where the weapon may be
used.



Second of all;

How to obtain a Licence

The following steps will guide you through the process;
Rifle Licence Category A & B

• Step 1.
You will need a genuine reason to obtain a Category A & B Firearms Licence. If you become a Member of S.S.A.A. you can
then list your genuine reason as Sports & Target Shooting and Recreation & Hunting, as we are an approved body
prescribed under the law. Anyone who is already a member can help you or contact your local S.S.A.A. Branch.

• Step 2.
Contact your nearest S.S.A.A. Branch Safety Course Instructor, and book in for a 30195QLD Weapons Act Safety Course.
(The State Office can also assist you to contact a S.S.A.A. Safety Course Instructor in your area.)
All S.S.A.A. (QLD) Inc. Instructors have attained the Certificate 4 in Workplace Training and Assessment.
As it takes time for your Membership Card to arrive, and you need proof of Membership of an Association to apply for a license, we suggest you Join Now.

• Step 3.
When you have completed your Safety Course we will post to you a 'Statement of Attainment' this is your proof that you have successfully completed the Safety Course. A copy of this will be needed when you apply for your licence. While you are waiting for this to arrive go to your nearest photo shop and have 2 passport size photos taken, as these will have to be supplied with your application.

• Step 4.
When you have everything you need go to the Police Station nearest you and ask for an 'Application for a License' Form 1 and a 'Proof of Identity' Form 30, or download them from the Queensland Police Service Website. Fill these in and pay the fees, the police station will then send them to Weapons Licensing Branch where they will be processed. Have patience, as they will only be processed after 28 days.

• Step 5.
When your licence arrives, you can then decide which firearm best suits your needs. Different types (we call them Disciplines) of shooting require different types of firearms, so try all the Disciplines that your Branch has, then decide on the firearm you want - don't make a hasty decision. When you have decided what you need, visit or call Your Gun Shop.


Handgun Licence Category H

• Step 1.
Obtaining a handgun licence is different to the steps you need to get a rifle licence. Just being a member of S.S.A.A. is not enough, you need to be a member of a 'Pistol Section' of a S.S.A.A. Branch, or an 'Approved Club', most S.S.A.A. Branches have a pistol section. To join this 'Approved Club' you have to go to the Police Station and ask for a 'Pre Approval' application form, Form Q515. You fill this in and lodge it at the Police Station. Weapons Licensing Branch will process the form and send you back a letter authorising you to join a Club.

• Step 2.
When the letter comes back, you can then join the Pistol Section of a Branch. The Branch will advise you on what is required to join. You are now on probation for 6 months. During that time you have to attend a minimum of 3 Branch Competition Shoots, these shoots will be recorded on your Participation Record Card that the Branch will issue you when you join. At any time within the 6 months you can do a 30195QLD Weapons Act Safety Pistol Course, then when your 6 months are up you can apply for your licence.

• Step 3.
After you have sent your application form in, it will be processed after 28 days. So have patience.

• Step 4.
Enjoy your sport.


And lastly - my say:

Cat C licence is dumb because:
1 You are only allowed one semi auto rifle if you are a farmer of fisher.
2 Most rimfire semi automatic rifles are chambered in .22S,L,LR.
3 You do not usually use a .22LR for anything larger than a fox.
4 A fisherman with a semi auto with 10 rounds of .22LR versus multiple pirates with 9mm sub machine guns.

Cat D licence is dumb because:
1 If you are culling different animals you need different calibres.

Cat R notes:
1 There is nothing about flash hiders
2 Nothing of electro-mechanical weapons or motorised/hand cranked machine guns.

I have experimented with a trigger mechanism one of Luty's designs. If I get time I'll upload a picture.

.22LR's are a good idea because 525 rounds of Federal are Au$25-30.

@ Neo
Neo I'd think it would be a bit risky buying a mag. And do they have a web site or email?

This is the largest post I've wrote!!

[BeerWolf]

Inventorgp’s Magna Carta gun

To all the so called gun licence experts (in Queensland);

WOW! I think that list just shouts out to me, "get the heck OUT of this country!"

Move somewhere that the gov't allows you at least a pointy stick to defend yourself.

[inventorgp]

“Impressive… Very impressive.” -Darth Vader
BeerWolf I agree. Well I live on acreage so I can make a bit of noise.

Oh and do forget sound suppressors (silencer).

[ap_gruffud]

Those licencing laws are a load of crap - Australia's (rifle) licence system goes:
A: Blank firing guns, Pellet guns, paintball guns, Air rifles, break action shotguns and non self-loading rimfire rifles
B: Single shot centerfire rifles, Muzzleloading arms, Combination guns, Double Rifles
C: Non self-loading centerfire rifles
D: Pump/Auto shotguns with magazine capacity no greater than 5, semi-automatic rifles with magazine capacity no greater than 20
R: Inoperable Fully-automatic display arms

RPI (Remote primary industries): Semi-automatic centerfire rifles, fully automatic rifles/submachine guns with magazine capacity no greater than 30, arms chambered for .50 BMG, .55 BOYS or 10.5 Soviet

and that is Queensland standard - there is no restricions on body armour, and even inert grenades/bazookas and crap like that are strictly illegal.

[nbk2000]

and that is Queensland standard - there is no restricions {sic} on body armour, and even inert grenades/bazookas and crap like that are strictly illegal.

This is where good grammar is so important.

Does this mean what it implies...that there are NO restrictions on body armour, meaning that anyone can own it?

Or did you mean to say that there are no restrictions on body armour because it's in the same class as inert grenades (which are strictly illegal), thus unownable by anyone?

[Hobbit Porn]

With regards to Qld/Australian laws, I read through the previous couple of posts, but didn't see any mention of paintball guns at all. Are they considered to be air-rifles or fall into one of the other categories?

It was my understanding that you needed to hold some sort of firearms license to own one. Is this correct or is it just a very common misconception?

[inventorgp]

You cannot own body armour, bomb suites, NBC masks, gasmasks etc.
So if the government turns on its people...

As to paintball guns I'm not quite sure, especially when you require a cat A licence for a airsoft rifle, keep in mind that it has to be a bolt action sniper only.

And another reason why Cat C is ridiculous; pump action shotguns are the same class as semi auto shotguns. But what about lever action? Hmm...

A bikey gang on the Gold Coast had full auto Glock 18 (model?), Uzi's, and M72 LAW's.

And if you want a fifty cal - .510 DTC Europ, if the cops let you have one.


What lame is that our next door neighbour, New Zealand is lucky they can have semi auto military style rifles, snipers, and also gun turrets of warships. Although I'm not sure how hard it is to obtain a licence.

[ap_gruffud]

Sorry if my licencing stuff is a bit out - I was regurgitating what I've been reading of an old poster in my local cop shop for quite a few years now.

As for body armor - a standard kevlar-ceramic vest is available for anyone who can prove thier job involves a risk of high speed projectiles of any kind - I could buy one with a rural firefighters ticket.

And lastly - my dad had two inert grenades confiscated at the range when the police members showed up.

So - I apoligise for seeming offensive - I was just following longstanding beliefs.

ps: usually when I say 50 cal I mean 50BMG.

++++++++++

I added the punctuation marks to the end of your sentences for you. You know, the . ! ? marks that show that you are done with a sentence?

Be sure to use some in the future.

Oh, and paragraph breaks...and spellcheck. ;)

NBK

[inventorgp]

What??? Confiscated inert grenades? They can’t do that - they’re inert. Well it depending on what state you live in.
Check this site out: Collectors Armoury (http://www.collectorsarmoury.com.au)

Yes, usually - if not most of the time .50 cal means .50BMG.

About those mags, does anyone know of any rifles/models that would use/fit one.

If I were to purchase a couple of blank .22LR (and 9mm) rifle barrels, can any one suggest length, twist, grade etc. for a SMG and a rifle.


I wonder if "used" (date) bullet proof jackets can be acquired?

[inventorgp]

I found this site: Not expedient, but anyway... CNC Gunsmithing (http://www.cncgunsmithing.com)
You can download some schematics from this site.

[neo-crossbow]

About those mags, does anyone know of any rifles/models that would use/fit one.

If I were to purchase a couple of blank .22LR (and 9mm) rifle barrels, can any one suggest length, twist, grade etc. for a SMG and a rifle.


I wonder if "used" (date) bullet proof jackets can be acquired?

If you want barrels then go to Margate and see tony cleaver at cleaver firearms.

If your after magazines then go to shooters warehouse in ashmore (gold coast) and anyone there can help you.

If your on the coast, you can pick up level II vests, cash no questions asked if you know where, and who to ask.

Pm me

[MarkIX]

The .22LR is pretty anemic round even .22WMR while better isn't great, you might be better buying 9mm in component form (which is legal) some bullet presses can be had for a fairly low cost. The only alternative I see is to engineer for a truly a rapid rate of fire like the A( or Am)-180 but that requires machining not really in accordance with expedient design.

On a side note Mr Metral in his book "Do-It-Yourself Submachine Gun" suggests two groove rifling is sufficient accuracy for a sub-machine gun. Early big game rifles used two grooves with a belted bullet and were deemed accurate enough for that kind of dangerous work.

[ozboy]

As to paintball guns I'm not quite sure, especially when you require a cat A licence for a airsoft rifle, keep in mind that it has to be a bolt action sniper only.

And another reason why Cat C is ridiculous; pump action shotguns are the same class as semi auto shotguns. But what about lever action? Hmm...
In answer to your questions, BOTH are cat A!:D

[mike-hunt]

I am considering building a 22 machine pistol from a John Holmes book . I apparently most of the parts are designed to not look like gun parts . My plan was to have the parts requiring lathe or mill work made professionally at several different machine shops with the story that they are one off pieces from an old machine or for prototype of my own design what ever lye fits the peace . Maybe getting several of each part machined at once . I am interested in hearing from anyone who has completed any of J Holmes guns .

Heres a utube link of his 22 machine pistol being fired

[neetje]

Is there any chance of being able to scan the book and make it availlable for download?Is it on the FTP already?I'd be interested in reading it and following your project to see how it turns out,xload.Good luck.

It has already been scanned, along with all his other books that went for sale.

here's the link:

http://rapidshare.com/files/22780652/Wpnarch3LUTY.rar.html

I hope you enjoy them. I have other ebooks as well, including Holmes' books, but I'll upload those later because my hard drive is a bit disorganized atm...

[Killy]

Heh, everybody is talking about planning to build some SMG stuff like Lutys, or Holmes (including me), they request books,
but actually we are starving of info (pics, descriptions) from ones who managed to build the SMG or at least any part of it...

[neetje]

I think the problem is that they are pretty illegal to build in many countries. I've already ordered the parts for mine, but I'm not sure if I'm going to put some pictures or video's of it online...

[Charlie Workman]

I think the problem is that they are pretty illegal to build in many countries. I've already ordered the parts for mine, but I'm not sure if I'm going to put some pictures or video's of it online...

I love the people who post this stuff on U-tube. I call it "Thank you for sharing your felony". particularly those whiz kids who show their faces.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I love the people who post this stuff...

+1 This is really an important issue...
If you enjoy this forum and the discussions herein, don't EVER throw stuff up that endangers it. Please use your fucking head when dealing with energetics, firearms, or even pranks. The discussions of "how it may be done" is vastly different than "look at this".

To spell it out very clearly, a drawing is different than a picture of a metallic item. A picture of some crystalline substance is different than a explosion and your car or whatever in the background. A mathematical model is different than a blown up mailbox, etc, etc. We are talking about self preservation. I'm not getting on anyone's back, so don't get all defensive - just treat the last two posts like you would signs at a shooting range.
If you think about it, this forum is on the edge of censorship and has already been attacked by iDefense to the extent of loosing it's ISP. Please use common sense. :rolleyes:

I understand that the longer one participates in these discussions, the more "comfortable" one gets in the general discussion. But every once in awhile pretend that you are talking through a bullhorn to the public on the street. :eek:

[neetje]

I love the people who post this stuff on U-tube. I call it "Thank you for sharing your felony". particularly those whiz kids who show their faces.

That polish guy Focusofdarkness on youtube has removed every one of his vids. I think that's better for him, but worse for us since his design was a perfect open bolt SMG. He even showed how he made his munitions by using a hilti nail gun cartridge... :cool:

btw, in some countries there's no problem in building your own firearms. MOST countries are so afraid of armed civilians they ban everything resembling a gun just to give the IMPRESSION of safety on the streets. I capitalize that word because criminals aren't bound by law so they can't be disarmed...

I know that in my country I can't even buy an Airsoft, wich didn't stop me from having an airsoft resembling a M4 carbine :D

Even worse, I bought it in America and went on a flight back home with the thing in my backpack... :eek:

[megalomania]

There are also legal ways of actually detonating explosives and building/firing exotic weapons. Many things that are illegal to most citizens are perfectly legal once the necessary forms are filled out, licenses obtained, and safety requirements met. Pictures and videos of legal activity are perfectly acceptable.

[Man Down Under]

Surely someone here must have saved those Youtube! videos?

As regards legality, if I was a cop and looking for an easy bust, I'd go for the Youtuber's showing their faces, and get Youtube! to give me the IP and get the ISP to give me the user. No warrant needed either. :)

Doesn't matter if there's ever a conviction. Simply arresting them and letting them go through the hell of the court system is almost certain to get a guilty plea, rather than risk the absurd sentences a 'bomb' charge would get them, after showing the video 'this dangerous psychopath made to glorify himself on the Internet' to the jury. :p

[neetje]

There are also legal ways of actually detonating explosives and building/firing exotic weapons. Many things that are illegal to most citizens are perfectly legal once the necessary forms are filled out, licenses obtained, and safety requirements met. Pictures and videos of legal activity are perfectly acceptable.

I'm wondering... Do you live in America?

Because I live in the Netherlands and I'm not allowed to build my own guns or own them.

The only legal way would be for me to obtain a gun smithing license, which would cost me 5 years in education. And then I would have to be hired by someone already manufacturing them since my government has chosen not to expand it's gun production ability (which means they won't give you a license for starting your own gun company)...

[BlackFalcoN]

Surely someone here must have saved those Youtube! videos?


You can recover YouTube movies from your browser cache. Simply rename them as .flv files and you can open them with any video player that supports FLV files.

If somebody still has them, please upload them to rapidshare and/or the FTP so we can still benefit from them.

[Man Down Under]

One thing I figured out was saving videos from shockwave'd sites.

Use a downloader to get the SWF file. Rename from .SWF to .TXT. Open it, search for '.flv', and copy the filepath into your browser after the top-level name of the site where the video is located. Voila! :)

[Killy]

Here is the only reproduction of Luty project on the net that I found.
It is from page
http://www.geocities.com/homemadefirepower/
that is blank right now (and would stay probably forever)

The interesting thing is authors description and modifications :
"This book by P. A. Luty published by Paladin Press available from Amazon will explain in great detail how to make your own 9mm submachine gun with common off the shelf parts in the privacy of your own home."

"I was able to build the gun in about 60 hours with only some basic hand tools, and the only power tool was a handheld drill. A drill press and angle grinder would make it easier and go faster but at the time I did not have such things. Many parts described in the book I could not find anywhere. Parts that I could not find include the wag well, 3 inch roll pin, barrel, barrel sleeve, steel collars of the right size. I have worked out many of the problems and this page should help you on your build."

"For the barrel I used a pre-owned UZI barrel purchased from www.auctionarms.com for half the price of a chamber reamer. This barrel is 10 inches long, one inch longer than the tube called for in the book but don’t cut it shorter. The barrel comes chambered and rifled making it more accurate and is a huge time saver. It needs a sleeve to fit into the steel collars. The sleeve has the dimensions of 0.75" x 0.035" x 0.68" and will slide onto the UZI barrel with ease but not sloppy. It is a tap tight fit into the 3/4 inch collars. The set screws on the collars hold it in place against the barrel."

"Close up of sleeve on barrel in collars. I could not find collars with the right outer diameter, only ones with a smaller 1.25 OD. These will not fit into the upper receiver. To fix the problem buy a 1.375" x 0.065" x 1.25" tube and cut it up and put it over the collars to get the right size. It might be a little too large and need to be filed down where it makes contact with the upper receiver to fit in."

"For the breech block I used 0.625" x 0.12" x 0.39" and 0.75" x 0.065" x 0.62 tubes for the center of it. The inside tube is too large and needs to be filed down all around to slide inside the larger one. JB weld is used to secure them together along with the tight fit. Over this goes the steel collars and over those go the 1.375" x 0.065" x 1.25" slices also held on strong by JB weld."


"I could not find the 3 inch roll pin called for in the book. I used a 0.5" x 0.095" x 0.31" tube cut with 2 hacksaw blades on one saw and opened up with files to cut the slot for the ejector. In the center went a round steel rod held in with JB weld and two roll pins."

"The Firing pin is part of a drill bit shank; it was too long at first and was ground down and at an angle to keep from getting caught on the end of the cartridge. It too is glued in with JB weld."

"At the end of the upper receiver is the recoil shield and guide rod. The guide rod is made from a thick metal coat hanger stuck into a steel round with that inside of a collar and that collar inside of the large collar used in the rest of the weapon. This is JB welded together. The end cover is made from scrap left over from making the lower receiver."

[Killy]

Part 2.
"The recoil spring is poorly made. I could not make the spring winding device described in the book. Instead I wrapped the wire around a long thin screw driver with one end clamped down and the wire held on with vice-grips. It does cycle with weapon but will need to be replaced along with the guide rod at some point."

"Trigger is cut and filed from scrap left over from lower receiver."

"Sear is made the same as it is in the book, but mine would bind on the side of the upper receiver to fix this I used some nuts to keep it strait."

"The Magazine is made from a tube that is about the size of the magazine well described in the book and is a tight fit into the lower receiver. The lips were bent in a vise and tapped with a hammer."

"Lips let cartridge protrude enough to allow breach block to catch it."

"I finished the lower receiver with the oil and torch method from the book, it works very well, wipe down the parts that can rust with oil. Many of the parts are made with stainless steel or aluminum, these parts I painted with a semi flat black spray paint. If your breach block doesn’t line up quite right with your chamber file the parts of the block that make contact with the receiver walls to point it in the right direction. Silicone spray does a fantastic job of making the breach block and magazine operate smoothly if you are having friction problems."

"I enjoyed building this weapon, though at times it was frustrating and time consuming. It will go faster and your results will be better if you have better tools, drill press, grinders, welder, and of course some skill with the tools. Don't be discouraged if your parts don't look as nice as the ones in the book, isn't easy to shape everything just right but if you make everything line up on yours it should work. I have only fired one shot from this, and it worked. At some point I will be able to do a full test fire and will update this site when that happens. I expect to be able to do that this summer."


Picture of his artwork :
http://i6.tinypic.com/8f4yuqx.jpg

[iHME]

It's a shame that his site is down :( It is suprisingly rare to see a luty smg made real, considering its simple machanism and need for only some regular hand tools.

If one wants to make a real one that would be legal in most parts of the world one could just make it fire 8mm or 9mmPA blanks. Also, if the barrel is plugged and ported it would not fire anything. Around here one can buy blank firing replicas and ammo for them without license. But theres a catch, the barrel must be plugged and the gases from the blanks have to be vented in some other direction then to the front of the gun. One thing that could hinder American builders is the (or so I'm led to belive) that BATF considers the reciver to be the gun, so even if the gun only fires blanks and the barrel is plugged it is considered a fully automatic short barreled carbine/smg. If you drill or some other way take the cap of the barrel it is considered as manufacture of illeagal weapon, after that the gun is from legal point of view the same with any normal weapon loaded with blanks. As long as the cap stays in the barrel the gun is considered to bee something similar to a childs capgun.

One of the technical problems in building the luty smg to fire 8mm blanks is the fact that the blanks don't feed well even in their real counterparts, give that you would use a weapon that allready has problems potential with feeding (luty smg). The blanks feed reasonably well from a pistol magazine, but from a curved or rectangular smg magazine they don't feed well. It is said that the blanks ressemble the wadcutter rounds in their feeding.
Also in Lutys book "Improvised HANDGUN ammunition" he uses 8mm blansk for primers in proces of making the ammo, so if you make a live fire and need to improvise the ammunition one could already have the blanks.

Some pictures for added information:

A fullauto mp5k blankfirerer,mark the strange magazine:
http://dekoase.com/page/pics/blowmp52.jpg

8mm blanks:
http://dekoase.com/page/pics/8mmpamf.jpg

[neetje]

If you get yourself a reloading press you might get the cases tapered, solving a lot of feeding problems.

I'm currently trying to fix something for a .32 acp, build on Luty's design. Not very powerful, but using the right springs and the right size breech block, this can be a bit easier than one might imagine...

I used to reload ammo, using a reloading press to resize the used cartridges to their original size. I don't know how well this works on brass tubing, but if it is able to resize it, this is the ideal solution.

I haven't tried this before, so I'm just making suggestions. I wonder if anyone has already tried this...

[Ubermensch]

You can recover YouTube movies from your browser cache. Simply rename them as .flv files and you can open them with any video player that supports FLV files.

If somebody still has them, please upload them to rapidshare and/or the FTP so we can still benefit from them.


Hey, use Cache View to find it in your cache, it makes Firefox cache file extraction 100 times easier, and assuming you don't have it wiped everyitme you close your browser, it may still be there.

http://www.progsoc.uts.edu.au/~timj/cv/

[neetje]

I found 2 of the video's back in my realplayer download folder. Here are the links:

http://rapidshare.com/files/87122667/YouTube_-_Homemade_gun_part_1.flv.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/87123195/YouTube_-_Homemade_gun_part_4_8mm_ammo.flv.html

I think these are useful vids:
- the first shows a reasonably detailed part of his gun
- in the second he shows how you make ammo by using yellow (medium powered) hilti 6,8/18 mm blanks (.27 long)

[iHME]

using a reloading press to resize the used cartridges to their original size. I don't know how well this works on brass tubing, but if it is able to resize it, this is the ideal solution.

This reminds me of my idea about making a simple reloading press and necking 8mm or 9mm blanks down to .22 or .177 so that i could use air rifle barrels.

Once again some youtube links:

Basic construction of a improvised pistol that necks 9mm blanks down to .177:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=O3OVDSycsx8

The maker shooting his creation, at the start you can see him inserting a .177 pellet in to the tip of the blank:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kbj4UPBrV64

[Killy]

I think he is using 5.5 mm air rifle part, since he is shooting steel bb-s.
(or maybe 4.5 is he using, but 5.5 would be better to use, since its bigger/stronger)

One type of modification would be that you take normal blank firing revolver, cut the barrel and weld that 5.5mm air rifle barrel,
or drill through/remove the barrel and insert air rifle barrel (or some barrel to fire normal ammo even, thats one possible modification for blank fireing revolvers to become useful)

But, beside that, I think that posts about modified blank firing ammo, or ramset "ammo" dont belong to this homemade SMG thread, and should be moved to Rameset or some similar or
maybe even new thread for improvised firearm ammo only (this is not a bad idea).

Neetje, what are you fixing for .32, what you have in mind ?

[neetje]

I was thinking about an open-bolt smg, by luty's design (exp firearms vol. 2) with a twin stack magazine. Since I do not have a lot of tools, I might make it even more simplistic than Luty's, because watching the youtube vids have given me several ideas:

- Luty uses shaft lock collars (bolt and barrel). I can't seem to find them, so I'll drill a hole in a aluminum block, fit in my barrel and maybe file it a bit for ease of feeding. This block will be fitted in a U-profile tube.
- No guidance rod. My bolt will be a steel rod, drilled out in front. In this hole I will fit my firing pin. Using 2 pins I wil let the bolt slide.
- No barrel rifling. I don't have a lathe, rifling machine or whatever you need to make these. Where I live you can only order a gun barrel if you own a gun, so this is not an option for me. I have bought a 14x3mm seamless tube, which I will use as a barrel.

I will be using hilti cartridges (.27 short or long, whatever suits me best) as primer and propellant for my 8mm bullet (.32 acp can be a possibility, using .27 short). :cool:

The gun itself will be made mostly from aluminum tubing and aluminum blocks, except for the bolt, sear and, of course, the barrel. These parts need to be strong, because they will get heavy blows and lots of pressure.

If I'm forgetting anything, please tell me :rolleyes:

[Killy]

I suggest first you try more to find real 9mm ammo, and not mess with this ramset improvised type.

Second, try to find as more "genuine" parts from Lutys design, like collars, and pipe sizes.

I was fucking amazed when I found some company who had in their catalogue all sizes that I need, it even had 3 sizes I can choose for barrel and barrel sleeve, and all would do the job
(that werent Luty sizes like 15.88, but "round" sizes in mm like 18 x 4.5mm, which would be maybe even better than his sizes)
I was particulary happy with that barrel size, since it is pretty heavy, and with sleeve probably wouldnt make problems like exploading.
Other "alternate" barrel sizes were 16x3.5mm and 15x3mm.
The last size is maybe not the best option, since in that case barrel sleeve would have bigger walls than barrel itself.

But to my great dissapointment, when I called and asked about it, I found out that they have none of my needs !
(why they promote it in a catalogue, I dont know, bastards)

I was so pissed, but Its like that in life, if you want something, you will never get it easy way ( and tubing sizes listed in that catalogue were way too easy!)

I continue my search, and thus, modifications of tube sizes, primary needed by tubes available.
Same suggestions to you, dont try to find exact tubes, find some that will be near his sizes, and could be easy assembled and put together inside one another.

The most important parts of construction are shaft lock collars and magazine.

Shaft lock collar outside diameter determines size of tube, and inside diameter determines size of barrel sleeve and barrel.
Magazine determines size of magazine well and size of lower tube.

For 9mm Luger caliber,magazine size of 35x15x2 mm is the best possible option, since in this rounds will fit nicely.
Sizes like 35x20 or bigger could maybe be good ( then magazine would be more like two stacked), but that needs more tubing size adjustment in magazine well and so.

Sizes bigger than 35x2 mm (height of 9mm round is about 30mm)
would be fucked up, (like 40x20x2mm tube)
just like idea of "bolding" the magazine walls with additional metal strips glued inside so that the inside space is not 36 x 16 mm (rounds in this "mag" size wouldnt fit loose).
But, who knows, maybe in some desperation I end up with that size & type mag.

Making your own parts like collars out of aluminum block is good idea, or that could be made from steel block with height of 14-20 mm.Of course it should be very precise, so it could fit in tube, and barrels could fit in it.

[iHME]

That sounds like a good idea. I have been thinking about getting some of the needed materials for the luty smg from my local hardware store, they seem to have some of the needed tube sizes. Though I'll try to finnish my other project some time this month. It is a bolt action .22lr pistol made form, ehh, bolts. I have designed it to be adaptable to some other calibers but without real locking lugs highpresure round are a big no-no. All I need is just steel pipe with 20mm id (the bolts used are 20mm diameter.

But now back to the subject when I get some more money I'l get some materials from the hardware store for the luty smg and a shotgun project. My time and motivation are not unlimited and I also do have to concentrate on my studies.

[neetje]

I suggest first you try more to find real 9mm ammo, and not mess with this ramset improvised type.

Mate, I can't get it legally. The trick to making your own firearms is using whatever you have, or are able to get.

I can buy all the tubes, no problem, the ammo I can't. So I'll have to improvise that too. It's no problem for me to buy the nail gun blanks, so it's a good alternative. I've already tested the blanks I'm going to use, they are more powerful than a .22lr.

The most important parts of construction are shaft lock collars and magazine.

Shaft lock collar outside diameter determines size of tube, and inside diameter determines size of barrel sleeve and barrel.
Magazine determines size of magazine well and size of lower tube.


I don't agree with the shaft lock collars. He uses this to fasten his barrel, give the bolt the needed weight and to make the recoil shield. These can all be replaced with other things. The barrel can be fastened using an aluminum block with a hole in it, the recoil shield can be made the same way and the bolt can be made heavy with a steel rod and round tubing in which this rod will fit.

It's just like Luty says in all his books, this is an example of building your own improvised smg with a limited amount of tools. His designs are not the only way of making a smg.

[kaiserbill]

I too have started looking around for the materials for a Luty SMG. As a lot of you gentlemen state above, I'm having difficulty locating some of the specified tubes. I certainly am struggling to find SHT or SMT with a 9mm inside diameter. It looks as if I will have to look at a different approach to the barrel, perhaps machined.

As for the magazine, I'm playing with the idea of making up a Sten - type mag, the construction method of which is described nicely by Bill Holmes in his SMG book. The reason for this is that I'm struggling to find the correct tube type once more, and seeing as I'm probably going to have to modify the project already, I might as well carry on. I do not want to make too many changes though, as I'm afraid that this will complicate the project unneccessarily. But, as neetje said above, There are ways and reasons to modify the original Luty design.

This thread would be a fantastic topic or repository for ideas relating to help or modifications to the basic Luty design. All purely theoretical of course.......

[Killy]

Neetje, most stuff here on this forum is not legal,
so dont whine if you cant legally buy ammo, I cant either, but you can try to find somebody who can buy for you, or buy from him.

This improvised ammo is hardcore to the fullest,
but since you dont know ballistics from that nail gun "ammo",and quality of it, combine that with non rifled barrel,
to my opinion you would get something more lika a toy than a real lethal weapon, it would shoot "something", but on what range would it be useful or lethal nobody knows.

Kaiserbill you should search, and, just like I said, modify the plans to fit things you could found.
Too many changes arent bad, if everything works as planned, at the end.
That sten type mag, in which book from Bill Holmes is that mentioned, and could you describe it shortly ?
This topic will hopefully one day be place you can read about real Luty SMG somebody made, not just theoretical masturbation around his books.If my memory serves me well, something like that is said on mainpage, here we want real knowledge, not hypothetical geek shit.

Some more pics of somebody trying to make .380 SMG, this is everything I found:
No additional pics, no more info about materials, procedure etc.

http://i32.tinypic.com/116n8yh.jpg

http://i28.tinypic.com/3310eac.jpg

http://i32.tinypic.com/246kqit.jpg

http://i32.tinypic.com/2qm15ya.jpg

[neetje]

Killy, I understand your point, but the way I see, it is like this:

I indeed know people who can buy me some 9mm ammo. But if they (or me) get caught, they lose their licenses, and I hate to have that on me. If I (for self-defense or whatever) decide to use the gun against someone, they will be guilty too.

However, I have a reasonable amount of time, about enough tubing to build 8 smgs, and I like working in my garage. When I started thinking about building this gun I was already thinking of trail and error, and spending a reasonable amount of time in fine tuning the gun. :rolleyes:

The blanks are nowhere near 9mm ammo ballistics, so if I use spring, bolt etc from luty's design and just downgrade the spring strength and bolt weight in steps, I will get it to work ;)

Anyways, this will be my project for the next couple of weeks. When it's finished, I'll make a couple of pics/vids so everybody can see.

btw, the pics: Nice lower receiver, but I wonder where the rest of the gun is :D

[kaiserbill]

Nice pictures Killy.

I'm going away for the week-end, but I'll give a description of the sten type mag when I return on Monday. I have most of Luty's books as well as a couple from Bill Holmes. My original intention was to build the basic Luty design quite closely. Then move through his designs: For example 9mm MP Mk1, Mk2, and 9mm BSP, with design improvements progressively built in. I'd like to end off with the Holmes 9mm MP, but we are talking a timeline over a few years. My family and work commitments ensure this.

[iHME]

Did some sopping at the hardware store today.
Bought some of the pipes need to make the luty smg reciver, I left out the parts for magwell as I'm not sure what caliber I'll be making it.

A image says more than thousand words (http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/iHME/?action=view&current=IMG_5394_.jpg)

I also started making my boltaction pistol, whem I get more done I'll make a separate thread for it. I'll also try to write up some plans for the pistol.

I made some basic drawings on my laptop before starting the project, unfortunately it is a very old laptop, it does not have a usb or netconnection.
So I can only show you a picture of the pipe thats going to be the reciver.
Pic (http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/iHME/?action=view&current=IMG_5398.jpg)

Oh also one thing, the pipes cost me 8,57eur and I cut them to length with the shops bandsaw.

[DiablerieBane]

Ive bought a book thats almost identical. Its built for 9mm luger rounds. And requires a metal lathe and a machining machine.. Whatever one calls it. I have neither, so I've been contacting machine shops to machine the parts for mine. If you are all interested in such things, paladin press is a brilliant publisher. Ive also got a book on combat knife throwing. The books are cheap, so they've got my recommendation as well as xloads, Im sure

[kaiserbill]

Sorry Killy, been very busy at work. I haven't forgotten the description of the magazine for you. I'll get that sorted out shortly.

DiablerieBane, what is the title of that book of yours?

[Killy]

Ive seen the procedure, but only shortly, I havent researched it,
if you want to write something about it, some general things so that we get the picture in short words.
Ive tried "bolding" the 40x20 pipe to create space for 9mm round,
but the results arent good.

DiablerieBane, do you think we are retarded ?

[DiablerieBane]

Its called A Do It Yourself SubMachine Gun. All drawings are to scale and ready to be taken to the shop. Its really cool because it compares in almost everyway to an uzi, as far as firing rate, muzzle velocity and magazine capacity goes.

[iHME]

Its called A Do It Yourself SubMachine Gun

Who wrote it (Gerard Metral?) and even better, it looks that you have it. So could you upload it if it's a e-book or scan it if it is a traditional book. It would greatly help people understand you if they saw the same than you.

[Killy]

I never saw that book from that Gerard, and Im sceptic if it is real homemade stuff, or you have to own machines like lathe, like from B.Holmes books.

Compared to Uzi and stuff like that means nothing if you cant made it at home.

[iHME]

What I have read (at amazon you could browse some pages of the book) says that it needs machining. The designer said that his goal was to create a smg comparable to mp5 and uzi.
Those two need precision work so it is not that surprising that it would need machining. Of course nearly all machining can be made by hand tools, it is all about it if you can file some piece of metal for a year. Bill Holmes said that he made one of his smgs without real machines, as his shop had just burned to ground. I would not personally waste my time filing, I'd rather make my own machines from scratch and waste my time on it.

[kaiserbill]

So, is it the Gerard Metral book? Be nice to have a peek at it....

[akinrog]

So, is it the Gerard Metral book? Be nice to have a peek at it....

It's been floating around on P2P networks and I remember even seeing it on FTP.

[Charlie Workman]

It is a machined weapon, but he has some parts simplified for easier production. He's a Swiss army officer and wanted something comparable to what he was used to using. A good book, but not something to be built using hacksaws and files.

[iHME]

So would some one upload it to rapidshare, mihd or megaupload? I realy would like to read that book.

[a3990918]

So would some one upload it to rapidshare, mihd or megaupload? I realy would like to read that book.

My scanner bit the "Big Red One":mad: a couple of days ago. As soon as I get a new one. I'll be more than happy to scan and upload for the forum...

[mike-hunt]

I am interested in herring from any one who owns a deactivated assault riffle especially in Australia . How is the barrel blocked ? Can a short peace be salvaged ? And are the magazines altered in any way ? I am interested as this could be a possible souse of parts for constructing a S.M.G from Lutty or Bill Holme's plans.

[iHME]

Around here the rifles bolt's face must bee milled to less then 75% of the original thus making it impossible to fire. In some countries it is only needed to cast a lead slug in to the barrel. But considering australias strict gun-laws it is propably welded shut as it is here.

[a3990918]

My scanner bit the "Big Red One":mad: a couple of days ago. As soon as I get a new one. I'll be more than happy to scan and upload for the forum...
It's going to be a while before I get another scanner,:mad: but on the good side, I found a scan had already been posted on the FTP.:) I copied and uploaded to RS for those who don't have FTP access. It's a poor quality scan :(but I think you can glean enough info from it to determine if you want to progress with the build(this is one of the more complicated DIY SMG builds I've seen). Hopefully by the time you decide to build or not I'll have a better scan available...


Do it Yourself Submachine Gun by Gerald Metral

http://rapidshare.com/files/97648225/diy_SUB.rar.html
8.1mb
pass. roguesci.org

[iHME]

Thank you. Damn I HATE the new rapidshare captcha it just blows my mind. They just love to put the animals so that you newer know if it is a Q or a O.

[a3990918]

Thank you. Damn I HATE the new rapidshare captcha it just blows my mind. They just love to put the animals so that you newer know if it is a Q or a O.

No problem. If you ever come across some of those Gingery books, on my list in the request section, I would appreciate your letting me know.

I think RapidShit does that just to infuriate:mad: you enough to buy a Premium account.

[Killy]

Thanx for the book, indeed its a very bad scan,
and some pages are so blurred (on purpose ?) that you cannont read it,
I dont know why are you so enthusiastic with the book,
since this book will be for 99% of people only good study, and nothing near build.

I suggest sticking to Luty plans
(more plans I see like Holmes or this Metrals, more I think of Lutys like real genious),
and first building his creations, and than maybe try to modify it to be more advanced.
As Luty said "Im often sent design improvements by would-be gun designers",
seems like there are lot of "wise" guys that didnt build a gun and wont, but have always bunch of ideas in their pocket, probably about everything in life.

Im working on it for few months,
by now just testing some stuff, and acquiring materials, it goes slowly, but eventually I know, something would turn up.

[a3990918]

Yes, Luty's designs are by far the easiest and simplest to construct but they serve a different purpose than do the Holmes and Metral designs. Luty's SMG is designed to be made quickly and cheaply with a minimal amount of tooling, parts and/or ability/knowledge. While this makes for fast production it also equates to a less reliable/durable firearm. Also, since this design is more or less handmade, parts interchangability would be almost nil.(Not to mention that you would need to manufacture several magazines for each weapon) You could always take the time to hold tolerences close but then you would be defeating the purpose of an expedient SMG.

Conversely, Holmes & Metral's weapons are of a more complicated design, costlier, not as quick to produce and require some machine tools and knowledge to manufacture. However they do make use of off the shelf mags: The Metral and both of Holmes 9mm Sub-guns use Sten mags while Holmes .22 machine pistol uses a universal mag for the Thompson .22 guns. Using basic machine tools equipped with a DRO or better yet CNC capability, a high degree of repeatability can be acheived thus giving greater parts interchange between weapons.

[iHME]

Thats completely true, the Luty smg is a expedient smg for people to fight "tyranny". The Metral and Holmes are more for organized manufacturing. I'm still thinking about adopting a luty smg for sten or suomi mags some day. Sten for high availability, Suomi for high capacity
doesn't the idea about a 70 round drum mag is just plain awesome. Also you could use suomi stick mags also.

And a3990918, I'll look around if I can acquire some of the publications on your list.

[ChippedHammer]

Thinking about making a Luty, most likely will modify it to chamber .22LR as its cheap as chips - not to mention that fact that I could fashion a drum mag with a stupidly high capacity.

Its officially on my list of things to do :)

[neetje]

I'm hearing a lot of people talking about making a Luty smg on .22lr, but I'm wondering if anybody has already build one. I want to know how they made their magazines. .22lr is a rimmed cartridge, so it's nearly impossible to make a straight magazine. I'd like to see how somebody improvised that ;)

[a3990918]

I'm hearing a lot of people talking about making a Luty smg on .22lr, but I'm wondering if anybody has already build one. I want to know how they made their magazines. .22lr is a rimmed cartridge, so it's nearly impossible to make a straight magazine. I'd like to see how somebody improvised that ;)
A lot of people have talked about it, but I haven't seen anybody yet who has backed up their words. As far as the mag, I would think an off the shelf piece would be the way to go, unless you want a really low cap mag.:(

[neetje]

thx for the info. I'm currently building the Luty smg with an improvised cartridge. technically it would be called a 8x40mm.
I 'accidentally' found out a way to improvise a primer. Anyone ever though about using a cap from cap guns? I saw a vid on metacafe where somebody made a contact explosive using match heads as explosive and a cap and a nail as primer. I think this can be used effectively as improvised ammo (maybe using a couple of caps to prime).

I've bought everything I need to build the smg, I've got all the tools needed (8mm 1:50 tapered pin reamer was the hardest to get), now I need some time to build the device... I'll update my design when I'm finished and have tried the gun :cool:

[a3990918]

thx for the info. I'm currently building the Luty smg with an improvised cartridge. technically it would be called a 8x40mm.
I 'accidentally' found out a way to improvise a primer. Anyone ever though about using a cap from cap guns? I saw a vid on metacafe where somebody made a contact explosive using match heads as explosive and a cap and a nail as primer. I think this can be used effectively as improvised ammo (maybe using a couple of caps to prime).

I've bought everything I need to build the smg, I've got all the tools needed (8mm 1:50 tapered pin reamer was the hardest to get), now I need some time to build the device... I'll update my design when I'm finished and have tried the gun :cool:

There are different types of caps for play guns. When I was 7-8 yrs old my grandmother bought me a Musket & Pistol set (she didn't know my dad had already given me a .22 single-shot) :eek:that shot, yes actually shot, hard cork balls. You rammed a ball down the barrel(the guns came with ramrods), half cocked the hammer, placed a yellow plastic percussion cap on the nipple, full cock and fire. Made a bang like a .22, from an 8yr olds view the ball flew a country mile, actually more like 30-40 feet .
These caps came in packs of 20, all fit together with legs like in a model car. Don't know if regular "Bang" caps would ignite your charge, but these surely would. Have no idea where to get or if you can even get these caps anymore

My thoughts on a Luty gun in something other than 9mm would lean towards 7.62x39. Easy with the mags, use an SKS barrel already chambered or make use of the thousands of .30 barrel available and chamber to fit.

I look at the Luty design as more of a guideline than a verbatim set of directions, open to everyones own interpolation and design criteria.

[neetje]

There are different types of caps for play guns. When I was 7-8 yrs old my grandmother bought me a Musket & Pistol set (she didn't know my dad had already given me a .22 single-shot) :eek:that shot, yes actually shot, hard cork balls. You rammed a ball down the barrel(the guns came with ramrods), half cocked the hammer, placed a yellow plastic percussion cap on the nipple, full cock and fire. Made a bang like a .22, from an 8yr olds view the ball flew a country mile, actually more like 30-40 feet .
These caps came in packs of 20, all fit together with legs like in a model car. Don't know if regular "Bang" caps would ignite your charge, but these surely would. Have no idea where to get or if you can even get these caps anymore

My thoughts on a Luty gun in something other than 9mm would lean towards 7.62x39. Easy with the mags, use an SKS barrel already chambered or make use of the thousands of .30 barrel available and chamber to fit.

I look at the Luty design as more of a guideline than a verbatim set of directions, open to everyones own interpolation and design criteria.

I found an online toy store which sells to Holland (where I live). They don't sell to other countries, I guess because they are essentially explosives packed in a little pack. I remember I used to put them under my shoes and try to set them one roll at a time using friction :D

They cost about €3,- for a pack of 20 rolls of 8 or 12 cap rolls. It's not the ball shooter you are talking about, but more the blank fire type (red caps).

And Luty's design is indeed a guideline. He even says so in his books. I'm taking a little bit of 'freedom' in building the smg ;)

[a3990918]

Hey guys, Guess what I found?? Yes, a drastically better copy of Me'tral's book.:D Enjoy

http://rapidshare.com/files/98583841/DIY_SUB_2.rar.html

5.43mb
Pass: ROGUESCI.ORG


And Luty's design is indeed a guideline. He even says so in his books. I'm taking a little bit of 'freedom' in building the smg ;)

Nothing like a little "Artistic Licence" to spice things up.:p

[Killy]

a399018, well this version is worth of better look, interesting, its smaller than the fucked up one.

7.62x39 would be like fuckin assault rifle !

Making something like that in Luty style would be insane, since Ive never seen assault rifle with open bolt conception and open bolt with 7.62x39 cartridges !

Some kind of single shot rifle maybe, but automatic homemade rifle in that caliber, impossible for making in home.

[iHME]

7.62x39 would need a very heavy bolt and a sickening spring and it might still blow up. Smg's should use pistol rounds. On the home gunsmith forums was a thread about design a assault rifle that could be made in a typical garage. It was never finished, they ware unable to decide the locking mechanism the only one that got close was a rotating bolt (too hard for average Joe) and retarding blowback (too unreliable). If some one wants I'll post a link to the thread(s). But let me remind you NO RIFLE CARTRIDGE WITH NORMAL BLOWBACK IT WILL JUST BLOW UP! Blowback is not even suitable for hot pistol loads, unless the gun is designed solely for the particular cartridge.

[neetje]

That it is a somewhat more dangerous gun to operate, I agree. But I'm not saying it's impossible. It has been done before. Just look at the M60 or the M1918 BAR:

M60 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M60_machine_gun)
M1918 BAR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1918_Browning_Automatic_Rifle)

Both are open-bolt machine guns chambered for powerful bullets. No they are not Luty style, but for more power you need more experience in building this and I guess a little bit more powerful construction materials (seamless tubing for receiver instead of the welded tubing, for instance)

I don't think it's impossible to build something similar using a SKS/SVD barrel or similar. In fact, I think this is what we should be doing, improvising assault weapons/high powered rifles ;)

That people on other forums can't seem to build this, should be a challenge for us :D

If I were to emigrate to America or Switzerland or whatever, I would try to make an assault rifle like the M60, chambered in the Russian 7.62x54R cartridge. :rolleyes:

Overpowered is what I like :cool:

[iHME]

But ain't the M60 gas-operated? It is true that they both fire from open bolt, but this does not make them blowback operated. There has existed a rather heavy caliber blowback weapon, a mater of fact it was more a machine cannon then a traditional rifle, it vas made as a anti-aircraft weapon. It used some strange type of ammunition and a overly long chamber, so that the cartridge could be mowing backward but would still be supported by the chamber walls. There is a modern caliber of this type made. It never really kicked of an if I recall correctly had something to do with the H&K G11 rifle (I might remember wrong). I'll post a link to the weapon and cartridge ASAP, if I find the link or site anymore.

[neetje]

that's true. That's why I said it's not a luty style gun ;)

But if I'm not mistaken the barrel of a SVD (for example) has the extra piping needed above it already in place when bought. So if you are able to buy it, it should be possible to improvise an assault weapon ;)

btw, the H&K G11, wasn't that the experimental caseless ammo assault rifle?

[a3990918]

I didn't realize my comment about the 7.62x39 Luty gun would be taken so seriously. It was an inside joke for another member.:rolleyes: Sorry for stirring up the contraversy. If I were seriously considering an upgrade on the Luty would scale up for .45acp. The .357 Sig or .40 S&W would be worth looking at, but ammo prices perclude this...:(

[shrub]

I read PA lutys plan for Expedient-Homemade-Firearms-Vol-II .32/.380 machine pistol and 9mm BSP_SMG are they the same? Is there a book for a .22 machine pistol? What would I need to change for it be able to fire .22

[neetje]

I didn't realize my comment about the 7.62x39 Luty gun would be taken so seriously. It was an inside joke for another member.:rolleyes: Sorry for stirring up the contraversy. If I were seriously considering an upgrade on the Luty would scale up for .45acp. The .357 Sig or .40 S&W would be worth looking at, but ammo prices perclude this...:(

Well even though it was a joke, trying to make one for real would be quite an accomplishment. .45 acp would be my logical upscale choice. I've fired both 9mm and .45 and I like them both. I've never fired the .357 sig and the .40 S&W, so I'm not going to comment on those :D


I read PA lutys plan for Expedient-Homemade-Firearms-Vol-II .32/.380 machine pistol and 9mm BSP_SMG are they the same?

The fact that you're asking tells me you've not read them both, or were asleep while reading them. They are not the same, even though they are similar open-bolt type smg's.

Is there a book for a .22 machine pistol? What would I need to change for it be able to fire .22

You can try Bil Holmes' "Home Workshop Guns for Defense and Resistance - Volume 3 - The .22 Machine Pistol". It can be found on rapidshare and on the FTP. This requires a workshop to build!!!

Changing a Luty into a .22lr machine gun you would have to change:
- the bolt size and weight
- spring strength
- barrel size
- magazine and magazine well

So just about every functional part of the gun.
It's not as simple as it looks ;)

[Killy]

Neetje, what are you talking about, homemade M 60 or BAR ?!?

M 60 "assault rifle" ( I hope you didnt watch First Blood too many times) chambered to russian mg round ???

Homemade assault rifle ???

"That people on other forums can't seem to build this, should be a challenge for us " -
first build SMG, than fantasize about other things that people cant seem to do it homemade

Dont post links for G11 because this thread is not about homemade G11, or something like it.

SMG in .40 or .357 caliber ???
.45 caliber ? Good luck with that, but we wont see that build and working.

Boys, stop fantasizing, and get to real work and results, this forum is not about intellectual masturbation and philosophic thoughts, we need some damn results and useful thoughts.

Shrub, you should read EHF Vol.I 9mm SMG, its similar to .32 (and vice-versa).

There isnt a book for .22,
but to build that, SMG size like .32/.380 could be OK,
and modifications should be made in barrel, magazine and probably firing pin

[neetje]

Neetje, what are you talking about, homemade M 60 or BAR ?!?

M 60 "assault rifle" ( I hope you didnt watch First Blood too many times) chambered to russian mg round ???

Homemade assault rifle ???

"That people on other forums can't seem to build this, should be a challenge for us " -
first build SMG, than fantasize about other things that people cant seem to do it homemade

SMG in .40 or .357 caliber ???
.45 caliber ? Good luck with that, but we wont see that build and working.

Killy I was trying to make a point. I wasn't talking about creating it, I was just saying it's possible if you have the right experience (which I don't have, sorry to say ;) ). I know neither one of BAR or the M60 uses russian ammo, and I know the M60 is used for suppressive fire instead of actual assaults, but it started with somebody talking about SKS barrels, 7.62x39 ammo, and open bolt smgs. The M60 is an open bolt machinegun that uses rifle ammo and the SVD rifle is one of my favorites, so I brought it up.

And smgs in .40 S&W, .45 ACP or in 357 SIG are possible, the cartridges are reasonably small (compared to rifle ammo), just check out this pic:

9mm/7,62/357sig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:9mm_7%2C62mm_357sig_10mm_45SW_45GAP_50AE_002 .jpg)

As you can see, the .357 SIG and .40S&W aren't much bigger then a 9mm parabellum and are still considered pistol cartridges.

[a3990918]

M 60 "assault rifle" ( I hope you didnt watch First Blood too many times) chambered to russian mg round ???

Homemade assault rifle ???

"That people on other forums can't seem to build this, should be a challenge for us " -
first build SMG, than fantasize about other things that people cant seem to do it homemade

Dont post links for G11 because this thread is not about homemade G11, or something like it.

SMG in .40 or .357 caliber ???
.45 caliber ? Good luck with that, but we wont see that build and working.

Boys, stop fantasizing, and get to real work and results, this forum is not about intellectual masturbation and philosophic thoughts, we need some damn results and useful thoughts.



Dang Killy, No disrespect but what put the burr in your butt?? This forum is FOR "philosphic thoughts" and such.
Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification
This section is for discussion about building or modifying commercial firearms, firearm repair, full-auto conversion, and resources for DIY gunsmiths.

Please note: "Discussion About" not "Bragging,Showing Off or Stating" what you have built.
As for me, that is all you will get, is my discussion and hypotheticals. I do not look forward to a mandatory prison sentence:mad: because I was stupid enough to get on here and brag about building illegal firearms and/or the production of explosives.

If people only discussed things that they had actually done, then there would be a significant reduction in the number of posts.:( The banter back and forth between members will lead to new ideas in improvised gunsmithing. Most original thought is the result of a persons dreams or fantasies brought to fruition. If you are building something such as this you should listen and partake in the discussions, perhaps you will glean some insight on your own projects from someone else's "Bench Smithing".

And why not post a link to the H&K G11? This thread is discussing a blow-back operated, open bolt weapon, which according to IMHE is what the G11 is. Studing this weapon might lead to new ideas and improvements in Luty's design or even the production of an entirely new style of improvised weapon.

How's this for a hypothetical improvision on the Luty design. Suppose in what ever part of the world somebody lives, that factory load rounds or brass for the .45ACP are unavailable or hard to procure. Possibly .308 blanks are not covered under the law. Obtain some blank brass, cut it down and make something akin to low pressure .44 Auto Mag? Could be scaled back to the performance of a .45 or slightly better, be made on the kitchen table, bandoliers of .308 blanks are cheap and readily available, this is a rim-less round so feeding and mag. construction should not be a problem. Any ideas??

[iHME]

Finally found the site. The cartridge is a experimental rifle cartridge 2030, not the G11 caseless as I stated at my last post.

The cartridge (http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/2030.html) was experimental and never fielded. But I personally believe that it will some day in the future be the cartridge of choice for militaries and law enforcement world wide. But by all means lets get back to discussing the idea about a smg. We can make a separate thread for the assault rifle.

Also even if .357 SIG and .40 are smaller than 9mm, they are considerably more hotter in terms of the load, they also have a more powerful recoil. Even if .45 is physically larger than 9mm it is lower pressure and thus it could be actually safer and easier to make a improvised smg in .45 than 9mm. The .45 of cource costs more than 9mm and is bigger. So the capacity of the small easily built single stack mags would be even more reduced. And wasn't the "minute man smg" made in .45?

[a3990918]

I'm currently building the Luty smg with an improvised cartridge. Anyone ever though about using a cap from cap guns? I think this can be used effectively as improvised ammo (maybe using a couple of caps to prime):cool:

Saw this link in a post in the BP section. Thought it might work as a way to expedite your cartridge production.:)

http://www.lockstock.com/prodinfo.asp?number=FRTC1000

[neetje]

I think that proves my idea of using toy caps as primers :)

[Killy]

Anyone has/or could
find more info on this ?

http://yarchive.net/gun/homemade_smg.html

Video of that documentary/scene with gun testing would be very useful,
folks on this forum from UK/Ireland/Ulster
could maybe know more about that documentary or get it.

[kaiserbill]

Hi Killy

I too have been interested in the various "home" or "shop" made SMG's used by both sides in Northern Ireland over the years. There is very little information on the various models made. I do know that the IRA manufactured straight copies of the Sten. I have seen pictures of them, and they look identical to the British "factory" model. I'm not sure whether the barrels were rifled or not.

As for the Avenger and other esoteric models, I have been looking for a while myself. Anybody else got any info?

[iHME]

If some one would be able to get even pictures or rough drawings of those Irish smg's it would be interesting to look at.

But now a question.
Should I make a Luty mk1 or Luty mk2 smg lower first.
I'm still looking for 30x30 square pipe with 2,0mm wall thickness in my area.
But as I have two 300mm lengths of 30x30 pipe with 1,5mm wall thickness I have decided to make lowers for both the luty mk1 and mk2.
And when I can get the 2,0mm pipe I can make the uppers too.

I have been thinking about making them in either 8mm or 9mm blanks.
The 8mm ones are cheaper, but with the 9mm ones I might be able to use the same bolt for blank and real cartridges.

And if I make, port and plug the barrel in a correct way it should be completely legal here.

And if I'm going to use blanks I'd have to make a reloading press style press with a crimping die to make the blanks feed properly.

Any way it is time to reread both Lutys books on the mk1 and mk2.

[kaiserbill]

Hi iHME

I am probably at a similar stage to you. I have gathered some of the basic materiels and have sourced almost all the rest. I think it is important to do this as I've found that if you are not in the UK as P Luty is, you will most likely find that not all the exact tube sizes are available. An example of this is in my country. I legally own a 9mm pistol, so ammunition is no problem. However, there are no SMT/SHT tubes with the correct 9mm bore available here. I have access to a friend who runs an engineering shop who will bore and polish a suitable barrel out of steel for me though, so I'm lucky in that regard.

I should be able to commence with my build in about a month or so, time permitting. I have only basic tools in my garage, but do have access to a small lathe and then obviously my engineer friend has all the equipment needed. I would prefer to use him only when absolutely essential though. I intend building Lutys' 9mm Machine Pistol with the magazine body made from a single piece of rectangular tubing. I intend following the design as faithfully as possible as part of my learning process. Any major modifications or improvements will be limited to a possible follow on construction.

Good luck on your project, and please let me know how you are progressing.

[iHME]

I'm currently trying to force my self to finally make a pistol of my own design before the luty smg.
Why? Well with the .22lr and the style of the design there is practically zero possibility of explosive failure. It also permits me to experiment with barrels and suppressors in a wery easy manner. If design the firing pin correctly I should be able to convert it from .22lr to 6.8 HILTI by simply changing the barrel.
Down sides are that it would be a pain in the ass to reload in a hurry.
As a clue I'll say that it includes 16mm bolts and nuts with 21,3mm pipe with 16mm id. :rolleyes:
I'll make a separate thread for the pistol of mine when I finnish the first prototype.

On the luty smg, I'll make the mk1 lower first and later the mk2 lower.
I don't have a friend with a lathe, so I have to make with the tools I have and that I can make or improvise.
Thank god that I have a angle and a bench grinder along with my semi-improvised drill press.

[jolly_roger187]

To my recollection, Phill Luty designed his first firearm in '97-'98 -The infamous 'Expedient Homemade Firearms, The 9mm Submachine gun'. In which he paid dearly for.

We all agree?

Right, now after more than 10 years of his 'fictional' crude contraptions, along with various books, diagrams and so-called blueprints, how many of us have actually seen a fully functioning article- of any of his devices?

Not a single Luty design has ever reportedly been produced, that’s a fact, although many attempts have been made.

A classic example of theory being just that- Nothing more.

I could add lots of pictures of the 380/.32 EHF Vol.2 parts that I have made and assembled, and also list the reasons of why in practice, that this gun would not function but I’d rather you find out for yourselves.

Following this, is a link to a British site where you can acquire most of the material for this build.

http://www.hublebas.co.uk/

I would like someone to prove me wrong I really would, but after so much time and effort I have put into his work, just too may modifications would have to be made, rendering his work merely a blank canvas!

[kaiserbill]

Here is an update of my project. I've just started the 9mm Luty machine pistol vol 3.

I was intending to use a steering shaft for my barrel. A friend donated one to me, and a second friend who owns an engineering concern was going to bore it out for me. Unfortunately, the shaft has not proved suitable due to it already having a bore of slightly larger than 9mm diameter. I only found this out once it was in my posession and after a little cutting. I have now resorted to sawing a piece of a defective air rifle barrel off and will hand this over to be bored and polished to the correct 9mm diameter. The barrel outside diameter is 15mm and is therefor identical to the tubing Mr Luty used.

I have access to a lathe at night, so on Friday night I will machine the bolt from roundstock. I will have help on this as I've never worked as a metalworker or machinest. I'm hoping my little project will educate me a little more in this field. I've found that not all the tubing in my country is identical to that in the book, but I intend to match them as closely as possible and adjust where necessary. I hope to post some pictures in the next week or 2.

[neetje]

Not a single Luty design has ever reportedly been produced, that’s a fact, although many attempts have been made.

You're wrong, somebody has already made it. Check this post from killy:

Here is the only reproduction of Luty project on the net that I found.
It is from page
http://www.geocities.com/homemadefirepower/
that is blank right now (and would stay probably forever)

Although the link is dead now, it did show a complete build of the luty smg. The author remarked he hadn't fired it in full auto, but had fired several single shots with it. I hope the link comes up once again, but I doubt it.

I can look up some of the pictures that were on the site, but I'd have to check my old computer. Send me a pm if you want these pics ;)

[kaiserbill]

Correct neetje. I remember that site when it was up.

Jolly-roger, have you considered that the type of person making a Luty machine pistol is most likely going to be living in a country where ownership of those types of weapon is frowned upon? Otherwise, he would just go out and buy a factory produced SMG. Therefore it stands to reason that it is hardly likely that people would advertise a complete weapon...

I must admit I'm still debating whether to post any pictures of my project once I finish it.

This of course is not to deny that there will most likely have to be a fair amount of modification and "hand-fitting" of any completed project. This I always expected. I'm also finding that different countries have different tube sizes, so a fair amount of improvisation will have to be done even before the first hole is drilled. I will most likely find it necessary to modify quite a bit during my construction....

I have now all Luty's plans, Bill Holmes 3 machine pistol plans, as well as Metrals' design. I believe that solutions can be found to any submachine gun design, given the fact that an SMG is quite a basic weapon....

[iHME]

Be sure to post the pic's. Just say that while you ware searching info on home built smg's you stumbled upon this site...blah...blah. Or something similar.
My Luty project is on hold. I simply don't have enough time for it.
And I'm concentrating my efforts in .22lr ones, safer and cheaper.
First single shot pistol then single shot bolt action pistol, semi-auto compact smg eating 10/22 mags and looking similar to Holmes .22 smg.
The main idea is to make them so easy to make that no machining is required. Why? I don't have anything fancier than a angle grinder and a table grinder.

[Setharier]

Hi people,

I didn't want to make new thread since we're discussing about smg's anyway. I have been offered deactivated UZI smg which I think I could be able to reactivate. I am still to ask how it has been destroyed. Most likely there is metal plug in the barrel and the bolt has been destroyed, but the parts in general are all moving. Does anybody know more of deactivated guns like this and how feasible they are to reactivate with post drill, welding machine and a sanding/grinding machine? I wouldnt't like to purchase it only to see it has been fully cut apart due to high price(nearly 2 grands).

[festergrump]

For $2000 you could do SO much better. I'd pass on that deal with no more info about it, to be completely honest.

Is it a blank firer?

I'm not savvy to UZ1s in general, but in most other demilled, non-firing replicas they use a plastic or aluminum receiver and a totally non-funtioning bolt. (it's just outwardly appearing to be cosmetically correct. Besides the barrel drilling, if needed or at all possible, you'd be in need of many more hard to obtain parts to make it function at all, IMHO. If the barrel is plugged somehow, they pretty much make sure it's beyond repair in those cases. Drilling the weld or plug could mess it up entirely if welded from the breech, especially.

If in the case of a blank-firing replica made from original parts, however, you may just need a new barrel, but I cannot swear to that, to be completely honest with you.

Might try some people who have a serious love for Israeli weapons, though. Try http://www.uzitalk.com for a better grasp on your prospective purchase...

Link to the ad or seller would maybe help, too.

[Setharier]

The UZI is real 9mill, not a replica. Blank firers use to blow up after couple of shots. The salesman answered it has been deactivated by drilling the bolt head to disable the striker and a pin drilled and welded through the chamber. Completely disassemblable, no other parts welded nor stolen. And trust me, at the site there's no any info about the gun, just a pic from the left side and a price tag - secondly, the language would be something nobody really understands :cool:

The pin through chamber worries me most. It can somehwat easily be reinforced by drilling a bit from the sides and welding a couple of mills but there still might be danger of blowing or ripping apart the chamber when firing. The pin is made of hardened steel but you say it, tungsten carbide drills, even diamond drills can be bought from hardware store.

For 2 grands, if I just dare to ask you, how could one obtain compact durable genral calibre full-auto? In europe one can not just purchase a working semi-auto gun and saw it pieces and turn to full-auto. :rolleyes:

[kaiserbill]

Setharier, there have been different methods to de-activate firearms used. Certainly in the UK, the de-activation process has been made much more stringent in the last 15 years or so.

Generally speaking, firearms de-activated before this period/new legislation have proved to be relatively easier to re-activate, and therefor command much higher prices. Perhaps your Uzi is one of these, although "2 grand" seems a very steep asking price! Many of the Yardie gangster hits have been carried out by such weapons.

This is in the UK though, so I'm not too sure how it is in the rest of Europe.

[Killy]

Searching for any info on "Avenger" sub-machine gun (for info scroll few pages back on thread)
I found this, its a picture of few "terrorists" from North Ireland, which maybe show that smg:

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3861/uff1ck3.th.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uff1ck3.jpg)http://img20.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

Well, here we have 3 creations, the left one looks even like its one of Luty designs ("smg vol.3"),
the right is fitted with some kind of silencer, and in the center even looks like something not home-made.

Antoher pic. I found, Its another home-made smg that mi5 acquired investigating on North Ireland loyalist groups in 1995 :

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/9086/mi51995uvffa2.th.gif (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mi51995uvffa2.gif)http://img222.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

Its a small and bad picture, but grip looks like from revolver !

It would be higly appreciated if we have anybody on forum thats from Ireland and have some more info on subject.

[sbovisjb1]

@Killy: You mentioned you had started this project, how far are you into it?

[Killy]

@Killy: You mentioned you had started this project, how far are you into it?

Gears still turning, time will tell :)

[sbovisjb1]

How far? Do you have any pictures of the progress?

[somtec]

Hi Killy
If you are interested in homemade weapons used in N. Ireland then I can recommend getting a copy of Small Arms Review March 2007. Its got 10 pages of info and many photos of improvised guns used including the avenger smg, mainly made by loyalist forces as the IRA had more funding and better contacts.

[Aborted Fetus]

Searching for any info on "Avenger" sub-machine gun (for info scroll few pages back on thread)
I found this, its a picture of few "terrorists" from North Ireland, which maybe show that smg:

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3861/uff1ck3.th.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uff1ck3.jpg)http://img20.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)



The SMG in the center is a Danish Madsen M-50
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg60-e.htm

[Killy]

Good eye Fetus, its really Madsen.

(note : pictures are pretty big)

It seems like his lefty and righty lads have notorious "Avenger" (manufactured about 10 years ago)
finaly got info on them from good friend :

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/7771/avengerqx7.th.jpg (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengerqx7.jpg)http://img222.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)


http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/7518/avenger2io7.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avenger2io7.jpg)http://img219.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

30 years ago, this rectangular design was popular :
Here is video, unfortunately not of machine gun in action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZBQxKQo2cE

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/8314/avengswernr0.th.jpg (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengswernr0.jpg)http://img222.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
Pretty heavy barrel on these square section smg.
Since no bolts are visible on side of barrel shroud end, I guess the barrel is pinned in place by welding or soldering.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4205/rectangularsidecf8.th.jpg (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rectangularsidecf8.jpg)http://img222.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)


Another design, this is made from round tubing, first one with magazine on side, second has magazine under :
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7328/round1jf7.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=round1jf7.jpg)http://img221.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/8739/round2pr0.th.jpg (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=round2pr0.jpg)http://img222.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

Apparently, those rectanglar and round designs look like they are based on smg from the book
"improvised weapons of american underground",
another info for that is from magazine Firepower, article (1984)
called ".45 minuteman SMG", its available on net, but horrible scan, maybe somebody could find better.

[Bugger]

(cut)Apparently, those rectanglar and round designs look like they are based on smg from the book "improvised weapons of american underground", another info for that is from magazine Firepower, article (1984) called ".45 minuteman SMG", its available on net, but horrible scan, maybe somebody could find better.
http://fileshunt.com/?q=minuteman , second-to-last item on page - links to a rapidshare download.

[kaiserbill]

Excellent work sourcing those pictures Killy.

As is apparent, the SMG can be quite a basic weapon, whilst the magazines seem always to be sourced from existing designs.

I have just read your PM, but I've been busy with work commitments and a work related trip, but I hope to inform of my progress so far, which has not been as much as I hoped. Perhaps the Christmas holidays will provide some of the time I need...

Good work on those drawings Killy. I think it's the first time the Avenger SMG has been posted on the internet. I certainly have never been able to find much.

[iHME]

Now I'm suprised how much they resemble the luty creations. Maybe loty gor some of his inspiration from here?
Anyway a good look, hi-res pics of improvised weapons are rather few and far between.

[somtec]

Back in the good old days when we could have handguns here in the UK I used to shoot IPSC practical pistol and there used to be a bunch of RUC guys who would come over and shoot on the mainland. During a conversation with one of them he stated that homemade guns were quite common but most were based on existing magazines be it sten, sterling whatever and that they commanded a high price as all sides struggled to get enough good magazines.
Most jams are usually magazine related in some way so it can be the most difficult part to make and function as it should therefore an existing magazine is probably the best way to go but the magwell etc would of course need to be redesigned to suit.

[somtec]

Not sure if you have seen this video or what you think of it. Yes I know its only a replica made of thin guage steel etc but I can see definate potential in the way its made for other purposes being discussed in this thread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjv6jkd9-3E

[iHME]

That Thompson replica is just SWEET I want one!

[jlwilliams]

One could build a TSMG type gun using the types of materials and techniques shown in the youtube film. The original Thompsons were over built to a near absurd point. Many of the real SMGs I have handled were made of fairly light material. The Sten is obviously a good example. The MP5 (first full auto I fired) is also made of more elaborately stamped metel, but still just stamped metal and plastic. The Mac series of subguns are well known for their ruggedness, being among the most popular for machine gun competitions here in the US, and they are no more than bent metal sheet about .080 thick. My personal SMG (legallly owned) is a Stemple 76-45 and it's no more elaborate than a Sten and it works well and safely. Point being if you had all the Thompson parts like the lower assembly, barrel, mags and the like that the guy in the youtube clip had, you could fabricate a steel tube and bent and welded sheet steel gun that would work quite effectively.