Delayed Poisoning

[WMD]

Suppose you have a structure that is inhabited by rats and you want to get rid of them using poison. You need to use something highly toxic because the higher the necessary dose is, the easier it is to taste the poison. Also rats have the nasty habit of sending one rat to taste and don't eat if he/she doesn't survive, so you need something that has a long latency period, meaning it takes some time before initial symptoms appear. But when they start to fall ill you want them either to die as quickly as possible or be so internally damaged that they're doomed anyway, because when they notice something, you don't want them to be able to... ...reach the rat hospital in time (at this point the metaphor breaks :D ). And while a rat with cancer dies sooner or later, it's still a threat (and a nuisance) as long as it's alife, so carcinogens are out of question.

Anyway, possible candidates I've identified so far are:

Orellanin: From Cortinarius orellanus, a mushroom. The latency phase is ~3 days (up to 14 days), then people get sick or die from liver and kidney damage. LD50 of the pure compound is ~5-8 mg/kg for guinea pigs.

Amatoxins/Phallotoxins: From Amanita Phalloides, the Death Cup Mushroom. Latency is about 5-24 h, then people feel sick, get diarhea and after 1-2 days death occurs due to kidney and liver damage. LD100 for humans is ~0.1mg/kg for the pure compound or 500 mg/kg for fresh mushrooms

Methyl Mercury compunds: Latency can be as long as 150 days (http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2002/suppl-5/851-854weiss/ehp110s5p851.pdf). LD50 is at ~20-50 mg/kg for various animals, for humans first effetcs (not death) start to appear at ~1mg/kg. Cumulative poisoning is possible but not interesting for this application.

Colchicine: From Colchicum Autumnale, Meadow Saffron. Latency is ~6 h. LD100 for humans is 6-20 mg.

These are the first candidates I've found. I've also read the chapter on time delay poisons in "Silent Death" but didn't find it of much use. Also I've picked compunds that are accessible via synthesis (Orellanine and methyl mercury cpds) or natural sources (Death Cup, Meadow Saffron) because if you can't get the stuff, the rats win.

Anyone else got any ideas?

[FUTI]

I have read a story about methyl-viologen...it seems that it can produce just a weak poisoning that look like food poisoning but six months latter victim dies from lung cancer. It seems that it trigers spontaneous proliferation of lung epithelial cells leading to death.

This is of course related to human toxicity, but maybe some of the compounds used as agricutural chemicals form the same class can be used against rats.

Best example of rats poison with delayed toxicity is warfarin. Best part is that rats are often canibals and chain of poisoning don't stop easy. :D

EDIT: I forgot an old rat poison...mix gypsum (CaSO4*1/2H2O) with wheat flour and leave it to rats to consume it. It will clog its digestive system.

[simply RED]

Anticoagulants seems to be useful in this particular rat case. Botulic toxin also, it has long latent period.
Tetanic toxin with or without the bacteria if the pest are not vaccined.
Ricine, if possible to be extracted.
Some organochlorine pesticides are reported to produce desirable effects.
Endrine for example.
Carbon oxide will make all rats unaware of their destiny.

[meselfs]

I think that you guys must take into account that rats, unlike humans, can eat more things then use. Seriously... do you think botulin or other food related toxins or toxins in general will have an effect on them? Plant poisons on the other hand will probably work beautifully...

You should consider mechanical means, though (assuming it's rats you're actually after :-|).
My grandpa had a farm once, and he told me that he caught them by the hundreds by making these barrels filled with some water on the bottom, with a ramp going through a hole into the barrel. The ramp end (inside the barrel) had bait. The ramp was hinged in such a way that once the rat is inside the barrel the ramp will tilt, and the rat falls in and drowns, never touching the bait. Then the ramp tilts back waiting for the next sucker...

[Bugger]

What about two-legged rats? They are worse.

[WMD]

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of two legged critters....

[simply RED]

Of course we are talking about the two legged pest!

There is another tactics that overcomes the problem with tasting the poison.
Strike all creatures at once! Then organophosphoric chemicals or fluoroacetates can be used.

It is impossible to cover all aspects in some posts,
the pesticide should be chosed regarding to the particular case and the possibilities to find or synthese such.

[WMD]

To strike all creatures at once usually requires careful weaponization to make it work effectively. Especially because such actions tend to be quickly noticed leading to quick dispersal of the critters and therefore reduced casualities.
Compare the following two scenarios:
1. The rats are holding a street rally. You attack it by exploding a sarin grenade. About 100 rats are affected. They quickly develope the typical signs of organophosphate poisoning. Emergency services are alarmed and victims are quickly distributed to different hospitals and receive antidotes. I don't think you won't get more than ~25% lethality and before the attack you'd have to deal with a highly volatile contact poison.
2. The rats are holding a street rally. You set up you're little stand for the "Swiftboat Veterans for Truh, Justice and Electing Rats" and start to give out free orange juice because your group wants to support the rally. The juice is special. Instead of fleeing from the poison, the rats gather around you and beg for it. The next day all across the city rats suddenly fall ill. You're gone.

And as another example, if the 9.11. attackers had disguised themselves as hotdog sellers and laid out extra-cheap poisoned hotdogs across the city, they might have killed just as much rats as died in the pipes and cellars of the WTC.

[meselfs]

I've always wondered about TCDD for that. I realize that being in the Guiness Book of Records automatically makes it k3wl, but just think: it's extremely powerful, takes a while to act, initial symptoms aren't especially discrete, and since it acts in so many different ways, I'd imagine that there's no antidote.

You could wipe a huge population of rats if you hit their water source.

[simply RED]

I've heared there is a marine toxin (patogen?) that has all the extras you said, causing internal bleeding, pancreatitis, red bloody eyes and 80% death even if treated...
I searched searced searched but found no such to exist ...

but... some of the marine toxins there is information in the net about are intreguing.... anyway.

[WMD]

You could wipe a huge population of rats if you hit their water source.
Unfortunately or maybe fortunately it's not that easy to poison a water source. Sure you could try a backflow attack, but this will only attack a limited group of rats. And to poison a real reservoir you'd need huge amounts of poison, as the dilution is extreme.

Btw, for the uninitiated: http://friendsofreservoirs.org/resources/IRP/Cross%20Connections%20and%20Backflow.pdf

[croc]

http://fugu.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk/PFW/Toxins/copether.html

Nobody has yet thought of tetanus, the tetanus bacterium (Clostridium tetani) causes muscles to remain contracted. This site says where tetanus comes from. http://www.vaccineprotection.com/consumer/diseases/tetanus.cfm and has other information on other diseases.
Back to tetanus. If the bacterium was added to a rat’s food with powdered glass it could penetrate the sides of the throat.

[simply RED]

What kind of posion is TCDD?

[James]

Do you mean 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin (http://www.websorcerer.com/Dioxin/d_what.html). <img src=http://www.websorcerer.com/Dioxin/tcdd.gif>

[meselfs]

Yes. According to Merck, "Dioxin" is an acronym.
In reality there's around 70 dioxin based chemicals.

[ProdigyChild]

Intoxication of a large number of rats without them noticing is one strategy.
I like the 'strike all at once' suggested above like that:

Find an flamable gas that can't be smelled. At least hydrogen is odorless, possibly some desodorized heating gases too (CH4?). Pity most hydrocarbons have a smell or have some odor component added.

On the rats rally, pour large amounts of the tasteless and nontoxic (!) fuel. The rats don't notice, while the fuel and the air mix and form an explosive mixture. Finally ignite it and blow up all rats at once! Those who survive the blast are likely to trample each other to death, it there are only narrow exits and oxigen lack helps, too.

If rats were humans and went to discos smoking cigarettes all the time, you won't even take care for ignition - just pour you fuel into the venting system ;)
Needless to say, that a large number of 'killer' bees sucked in by the venting system or released in mid of the rally would do an equally good job and they're quite easily to obtain :D
Even a placebo poison, that tastes like poison (HCl, NH3, formaldehyde, cake almond aroma,...) placed in a fog machine running amuck - maybe in conjunction with turned off lights and deafening siren sound - would probably motivate the rats to stamp each other to death while trying to escape that deadly trap.

[nbk2000]

This is hardly in the realm of "delayed poisons" anymore, now is it?

[zeocrash]

If rats were humans and went to discos smoking cigarettes all the time, you won't even take care for ignition - just pour you fuel into the venting system
why that'd be murder on the dancefloor
hmm as for the almond flavouring in the smoke machine, i don't think most people know what cyanide smells like. it usually the fact that it kills people that alerts people to it's prescence

[ProdigyChild]

This is hardly in the realm of "delayed poisons" anymore, now is it?

No sorry. I simply could not resist porting the principle of getting rats in a trap without them noticing to explosives.

A more on topic suggestion. Again a comparison with humans: humans poison themselves to death voluntarily: alcohol, tobacco, fat meal and most effective drugs like heroine, etc. . Even they know it's deadly, they still consume it because of either addiction or indifference. Not killing at the first consumption seem to be enough for a 'silent' poison.
I really wonder, if rats don't have such behaviour, too. Addiction isn't a human feature only, is it?? So you simply have to find a 'rat fun' drug, make them addicted, then add poison to their drug source. Although their buddies die, they still eat the poison.

[TheBlob]

One of my teachers talked about a poison that has the same effect as tetanus but you died in about 24 to 48hrs after ingestion. I can't remember the name the only info I have on this poison is that it's accidently made when tomato juice is made (possibly when other kind of food is made). He said that when you find a tomato juice can at the super market and its all bumped like if there was to much pressure in it, its a highly toxic bacteria that was formed in the juice, and it doesn't take alot of the bacteria to exceed the lethal dose (I think it was something like 1-5mL). If anyone has some info on that bacteria plz post it i'd like to learn more about it.

[passhahkhan]

How about ricin or abrin?

These are extremely toxic proteins and take days to kill.

These toxins are found in easily available substances - Ricin from castor beans and Abrin from rosary pea aka jequirity pea which are fairly easy to extract and very potent.

[googol]

. I can't remember the name the only info I have on this poison is that it's accidently made when tomato juice is made

Botulism fits this. It anaerobic, being formed without air. It happens in cases of bad canning.

[passhahkhan]

Does botulism grows on tomato juice?

Or does it live only on flesh and meat?

[Ropik]

Many people think that botulism germs live only on meat. Although this is the best medium, they can live on vegetables nearly as well. Tomato juice is enough, although I doubt that this "botulism drink" is made in commercial mass production more often than 1 can in (put a very, very big number here) of normal cans, so this is impractical way to find the toxin - going to shop and look for can with lumps on outside...

[Joeychemist]

Botulism is a rare but serious paralytic illness caused by a nerve toxin that is produced by the bacterium Clostridium botulinum. There are many several kinds, the three main kinds of botulism are. Foodborne botulism is caused by eating foods that contain the botulism toxin. Wound botulism is caused by toxin produced from a wound infected with Clostridium botulinum. Infant botulism is caused by consuming the spores of the botulinum bacteria, which then grow in the intestines and release toxin. All forms of botulism can be fatal and are considered medical emergencies. Foodborne botulism can be especially dangerous because many people can be poisoned by eating a contaminated food.

So to answer you’re post passhahkhan, “dose Botulism grows on tomato juice?” the answer is no, botulism is only the name for the sickness caused by a nerve toxin produced by the bacterium Clostridium botulinum.

Botulism can result in death due to respiratory failure. However, in the past 50 years the proportion of patients with botulism who die has fallen from about 50% to 8%. A patient with severe botulism may require a breathing machine as well as intensive medical and nursing care for several months. Patients who survive an episode of botulism poisoning may have fatigue and shortness of breath for years and long-term therapy may be needed to aid recovery.

So as a delayed poison I would have to say infecting someone this toxin would not be affective nor would it be a sure thing that the target dies.

[googol]

this indicates less acid vegetables are more likely to grow it.

from http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/botulism_g.htm#What%20is%20botulism
foodborne botulism has often been from home-canned foods with low acid content, such as asparagus, green beans, beets and corn. However, outbreaks of botulism from more unusual sources such as chopped garlic in oil, chile peppers, tomatoes, improperly handled baked potatoes wrapped in aluminum foil, and home-canned or fermented fish. Persons who do home canning should follow strict hygienic procedures to reduce contamination of foods. Oils infused with garlic or herbs should be refrigerated. Potatoes which have been baked while wrapped in aluminum foil should be kept hot until served or refrigerated. Because the botulism toxin is destroyed by high temperatures, persons who eat home-canned foods should consider boiling the food for 10 minutes before eating it to ensure safety. Instructions on safe home canning can be obtained from county extension services or from the US Department of Agriculture. Because honey can contain spores of Clostridium botulinum and this has been a source of infection for infants, children less than 12 months old should not be fed honey.

[nbk2000]

There's several strains of botulism, with only the A strain being sufficient for weaponization. There are some strains that are practically harmless to humans.

You'll not be making any in a jar at home from green goo you find in a bloated can. :rolleyes:

[passhahkhan]

Can it be made at home in a jar using the recipe from the Uncle's Fester's "Silent Death"?

I think making it is not a problem but handling it is; because it is extremely toxic.

Also the above source mentions that "Botulin is the second most powerful poison known, taking a runner up position to a poison made by an exotic strain of South Pacific coral bacteria" but it dosent mention the name of the bacteria.

I've also heard from some unreliable sources that Botulin is the most toxic substance known to mankind. If its not, then what is the most toxic substance known?

[Joeychemist]

"Botulin is the second most powerful poison known"

Um, you might want to use the edit button on that one. :rolleyes:

Are you sure that Botulin is the second most powerfull poison in the world? Do you have any good links that you could show us where it says that?

[nbk2000]

Botulism is the most powerful.

There's a plankton that's known as "Red Tide", when it's blooming, that produces a very powerful toxin that's concentrated in shellfish, saxitoxin, but orders of magnitude less powerful than BTX.

Once you've got some of the 'Red Tide' plankton, you can grow it yourself in unlimited quantities, and directly extract it without need for shellfish shucking, as you have much more of it than is practical to extract from the ocean. :)

http://siobiolum.ucsd.edu/Dino_culture.html

[simply RED]

Is it possible to grow some water loving organisms
directly into the water supply dam (during the summer season)?

[passhahkhan]

I think it is possible.

If they dont get killed in water processing units then it may easily kill thousands.
But I dont think they would make it alive from water processing units.

Also I've read somewhere I cant remember that Botulinum toxin cannot be used by disolving it into water reservoir or lakes as a weapon because the water is processed with chlorine which dissociates the toxic protein.

[thrall]

Quote
Botulism is the most powerful.
http://www.asanltr.com/newsletter/02-2/articles/Neurotoxins.htm
look at Palytoxin.
LD50 is 4 MICROGRAM :eek:
And Batratoxin
Myers et al. [21] anticipated a lethal dose of batrachotoxin for man of only 2.0 to 7.5 µg, when administered by injection
Of course nuerotoxins are not even remotely related to delayed poisning :rolleyes:
Don't forget see the chemical structure at the end of the page. Nice molecule ;)

[passhahkhan]

Lethal dose of Botulinum toxin is about 1 ng/kg, the deadliest substance known, so an 80 ng dose would kill most people.

While for palytoxin it is 4 MicroGram.

For Batrachotoxins:
If we suppose that man is at least as susceptible as mice to these compounds, the lethal dose is about 180 µg for a person.
Source: http://www.asanltr.com/newsletter/02-2/articles/Neurotoxins.htm

They are stable in storage and can be chemically synthesized.
Does anybody has synthesis data for Batrachotoxins and can it be easily synthesised in home labs?

[nbk2000]

Does anybody has synthesis data for Batrachotoxins and can it be easily synthesised in home labs?


If you're even asking that question, than you wouldn't understand the answer. :rolleyes:

[WMD]

Does anybody has synthesis data for Batrachotoxins and can it be easily synthesised in home labs?

Did you take a look at the structure? Need I say anything more? The Anatoxins are accessible through synthesis, everything else on that page is impractical.

As for poisoning water reservoirs, like I said before it's impractical. Using chemicals you'd need huge amounts of a stable compounds. Bacteria are useless anyway, as the quality of most reservoirs is regularly monitored and water with significant bacteria levels tends to smell so bad, that most people won't drink it. And micro organisms, proteins as well as most chemical warfare agents probably wouldn't survive the water processing steps (activated carbon filtration, chlorine/ozone gasification, stuff like that).

The only realistic way to poison the water supply is to either attack a smaller intermediate reservoir that holds already processed water or to get the stuff in the system through backflow or cross connections. And then you still have the problem that a huge amount of agent will be lost in toilets and kitchen sinks.

So, still best to feed it to them in cute little cookies (although baking would rule out pretty much all of the protein poisons, maybe put it in the glaze) or spicy greasy burgers. Or imagine the impact a suicide falafel seller would have on the Israelis, compared the normal suicide bombers.

[rational611]

I have read a story about methyl-viologen...it seems that it can produce just a weak poisoning that look like food poisoning but six months latter victim dies from lung cancer. It seems that it trigers spontaneous proliferation of lung epithelial cells leading to death..


Could you post the link from where you got this information?

After reading your post I made a quick search and came up with an article that Methyl Viologen aka Paraquat does not cause cancer in humans.
Following is the link to the article I found:

Paraquat or Methyl Viologen Poisoning (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:Z5nZzOE3HDgJ:www.panap.net/docs/monos/paraquatSep03.pdf+methyl+viologen+lung+cancer&hl=en)

I am confused. Could you clarify?

[Sarevok]

There is no clarification, rational611. The document you linked (page 5, Cancer) says that some people did experiments on animals and concluded that Paraquat is not carcirogen to humans, while others did other experiments on animals and concluded the contrary. :rolleyes:

If experiments where done in humans (the worthless ones), then we would have a clarification.

Carcirogen or not, it is toxic and might be suitable for delayed poisoning.

[rational611]

FUTI had posted in his original post that a person given Paraquat/Methyl Viologen would die of lung cancer after six months. I wanted to find if this was really true and it appears that the person does not die of cancer itself, but because of the toxic effects of the poison.

[nbk2000]

It causes degenerative changes in the lung tissue that are irreversable and lead to eventual lung failure?

If that's the means of death, why cloud the issue by even mentioning the maybe/maybe-not cancer? :confused:

You prevent confusion by excluding extraneous and irrelevant data, not by including it.

[FUTI]

I read it in a compilation of texts given to me as part of my exam preparation papers by an old professor. He took part of it from a chemistry book by some Australian guy, and I think that information came from there. I can look later to find it, I just saw the question I was out of the Web reach for a few days...holiday:)

EDIT:

As much as I remember text claim that initial poison can not be traced in the body at the time the illness show it's progress. It also claim that proliferation of lung cells leading to colaps is the cause of death. It may be at least to my knowledge counted as generation of benign tumor. I posted the info because I think it fit to the subject. Poisoning, prolonged interval untill the effect show up and the chemical substance can not be analytically traced back after poisoning outcome.

[rational611]

FUTI could you confirm for sure that the poison is non-traceable at the time of death. I mean poisons like tetanus and ricin cannot be traced in the body if they send it to the forensics. Such poisonings can only be deduced by looking at the symptoms. Does paraquat also fall under this category or does it show up in a blood test or some other kinds of tests to determine the poison? Please look it up in your chemistry textbook from which you have got this information from. I would appreciate your reply. Thanks in advance.

[zeocrash]

ricin can be traced, I believe the body attempts to produce antibodies to it and these are detectable. Also i believe that it can be detected in large enough quantities.

[akinrog]

There's a plankton that's known as "Red Tide", when it's blooming, that produces a very powerful toxin that's concentrated in shellfish, saxitoxin, .....

Here (http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/stx/saxi.htm) are some synthesis for STX

The first original synthesis is here (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=Display&DB=pubmed). However this is an abstract and no entire article.

Article is designated as J Am Chem Soc. 1977 Apr 13;99(8):2818-9.
A stereospecific total synthesis of d,l-saxitoxin.
Tanino H, Nakata T, Kaneko T, Kishi Y."

I have also found an article abstract related to isolation of the STX, however there is no entire article. The abstract is here (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7952941). Anybody may occasionally have entire article(s)?

Article is designated as "Nat Toxins. 1994;2(4):175-83.
PMID: 7952941 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]" I don't know if this designation helps to locate entire article.

[simply RED]

"including dizziness, diarrhoea and vomiting, disorientation, respiratory distress, and eye irritation"

Seems pretty much like the condition i've heared of (described in one of my previous posts) :) .
"like drops of blood will fall from the eyes......."
In my case the desease was also described as "untreatable", "only some supporting treatment" (whatever means) that saves no more than 20%.
Only the internal bleeding is not spotted.
These things are potent enough to meet some use - if additional research is done.

[akinrog]

I believe this post shall not be very informative since I cannot remember the compounds name. But I also believe someone else may remember it if I tell the story :).

A few years ago, I watched on discovery two programs called forensic detectives and medical detectives. In one of the episode of either of these programs (I don't remember which one), there was a murder case solved by the PD wherein the culprit who is an ex-boy friend of the intended victim, used a methyl azo compound (which I cannot recall) to kill her, but failed to do so but only killed her little daugher and her (daugher's) uncle.

Actually if both of them are not poisoned the case could not be solved so easily since although the compound destroys liver cells there is no trace of the compound in the liver (since it is rapidly metabolized). Consequently the forensic scientist cannot prove the murder. However when a patologists examined the liver cells under microscope and saw the liver cell damage, s/he remembered that s/he saw such a damage before and when looking after s/he determined it is a carcinogenic substance which virtually destroys all liver cells and if used too much it causes death due to hemorrhages (sp?). And when the hospital officials determined that the little girl and the man hospitalized that day are relatives (uncle and niece), police started an investigation and by tracing possible suspects they determined the culprit and after also learning that he is working in a cancer research center, they guessed that the person in question obtained/stolen that substance from the center, and by the testimony of the patologist, they managed to have him convicted in the court.
The guy has been claimed to add the substance to lemonade jug (from which some members of the family drank but a great portion of the family members either did not drink at all or drank only too little). And since the effect is delayed and they washed the jug no evidence could be found against him.

Anyway sorry for such a long story but this might assist somebody who watched the same episode may remember the compound. :(

[Acetylene]

You could go work at a food factory, the put some Botulinum bacteria on your gloves and spread them around, so the food is infected (although pasteurisation might get in the way of this).
If one does want to use a carcinogen, then 3-nitrobenzanthrone is the way. It's the most carcinogenic chemical ever, while its precursor benzanthrone is a realtively harmless intermediate in dye syntheiss and the like. They transport it in 150-kg barrels, buy yourself one and then nitrate the compound, then go to a busy street with your 3-nitrobenzanthrone molten in a steel can, wrapped in glass wool to prevent heat loss and to keep it molten and evaporating, stand there untill it soidifies, go home and reheat, do so untill you run out. The next day, take some more of the compound and repeat the routine. Of course, this will be a suicide mission.

[DimmuJesus]

Again a comparison with humans: humans poison themselves to death voluntarily: alcohol, tobacco, fat meal and most effective drugs like heroine, etc. . Even they know it's deadly, they still consume it because of either addiction or indifference. Not killing at the first consumption seem to be enough for a 'silent' poison.
I really wonder, if rats don't have such behaviour, too. Addiction isn't a human feature only, is it?? So you simply have to find a 'rat fun' drug, make them addicted, then add poison to their drug source. Although their buddies die, they still eat the poison.


Not a bad idea for this topic. It would be particularly easy to poison the intravenous drugs, probably even the snorted drugs. But what about drugs that are smoked? I just started another topic for discussing the possibility of burning poisons. Some things that one could put into drugs such as marijuana or other smoke administered drugs.
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=4430

[Jacks Complete]

A lot of these ideas are so lame! Just randomly killing a load of people is so stupid - you would have no way to avoid killing your dog, your wife and your mates down the pub at the same time as the group you want rid of.

That said, http://houseofstrauss.co.uk/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=214 tells of the "Blue-green algae" problem. Easily made at home. 55% of UK watercoures tested have it, and it is lethal.

[akinrog]

On Discovery channel, I watched a documentary related to death of Alexander the Great. In the documentary, they claim that Alexander the Great was posioned by some assassins with the roots of a ranunculus variety. The documentary names exact name of the plant, but the translators of the documentary translated the name into my native language so I don't know exact variety, but managed to deduce names of similar plants (i.e. Ranunculus, buttercup,etc.)

According to the documentary the death of Alexander the Great lasted a few days (which in this respect fits in this thread). Anybody watched the English version of the said documentary and therefore know the name of the plant?

Some searches revealed that the poison plant in question is White Hellebore. This link (http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/h/helbla14.html) describes its properties. However it says not white hellebore but black hellebore.

[Joeychemist]

Akinrog

I am not sure of the exact plant you’re thinking of, or what type of plant killed Alexander the great but I can tell you that while most members of the buttercup family are only slightly poisonous, monkshood, Aconitum delphiniflorum, can cause death, to anyone or anything, within hours of ingesting any part of the plant. The plants juice is what is poisonous though, and what I would use. But then again this type kills within hours so it is not the type that made Alexander sick for days until he died. I think that he was poisoned with a weaker type of this species’ of flower and without the medical advances we have today he died as a result.


And that’s the other thing about using one of the other strains is that symptoms show very soon after poisoning and if treated quickly, the target will most likely survive, so I don’t think this is a reliable delayed poison.

[nbk2000]

I heard Alexander died from West Nile Virus, as the common sign of local presence of the virus is dead birds, and according to legend, when alexander entered the last city he conquered, all the birds fell dead.

With that, and the symptoms of fever, that's WNV.

[Sarevok]

Things such as birds falling dead or poisoning are legends. He probably died of typhoid fever. If you check the symptoms historians such as Plutarch gave of his illness, it sounds like typhoid fever. For example, it was hard for him to eat (it is hard for people who suffer from typhoid fever to eat; and this is not true of West Nile Virus). He died in Babylonia, where typhoid fever was common.

One thing that helped the disease to kill him was the fact that Alexander was saddened by the death of Hephestion (spelling?) (his FRIEND, not lover, like some writers, who have nothing do and want easy money, want us to believe) and Boukephalos (spelling?) (his horse and friend too) and I think this undermined his resistance. When they were alive, he resisted a lot of things, including being hit by an arrow that pierced his lungs, exposing the lungs in a way that people could see air getting in and out of his skin through the wound; he resisted a lot of time without any assistance and, when his soldiers were worried about him, he walked in front of them so that they could see he was ok. After they died, he became very sad, started to drink a lot and this little disease killed him. Modern medicine proves me right: someone who has little will to live and is very sad will have more problems resisting a disease or a wound than someone determined to live.

I know that what matters is the fact that the poison is (or is not) well suited for delayed poisoning, not if this poison killed this or that guy. I merely wanted to clarify this stuff.

[akinrog]

I forgot too add conclusion of the documentary I watched.

The investigators concluded that Alexander was killed by the posion but not poisoned.

This might be contradictory but, according to the documentary, purging the body as a treatment of ilnesses was a common practice during Alexander Great's time (just like Phlebotomy of Middle Ages) and roots of white hellebore were used by the physicians of that time as purgative. And Alexander, being an eager man to recover from the illness and continue his way of life, insisted the physicians attending the him to use frequent and higher doses of the herb's roots and died due to poisoning.

However, as you may notice the herb is a good posion the site describing it states that it contains "Two crystalline glucosides, Helleborin and helleborcin, both powerful poisons. Helleborin has a burning, acrid taste and is narcotic, helleborcin has a sweetish taste and is a highly active cardiac poison, similar in its effects to digitalis and a drastic purgative."

Since it is very similar to digitalis, it might be a good posion to use and with minimal doses administered over the time the delaying effect may be obtained.

However I must admit that this may increase exposure of the perpetrators to risk of being caught. :eek:

[rational611]

Acetylene: Is 3-nitrobenzanthrone detectable in both living bodies and dead tissue?

Zerocrash wrote "ricin can be traced, I believe the body attempts to produce antibodies to it and these are detectable. Also i believe that it can be detected in large enough quantities" at http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=4291&page=2&highlight=delayed+poisoning

PyroTech wrote "The nice thing about ricin is that doctors can’t find the cause of death, at least in many cases, because ricin destroys itself. The way of dying by ricin is not something you would wish for somebody. You literally shit your organs out" at

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=3694&highlight=delayed+poisoning

Zerocrash says that ricin is traceable while PyroTech says it is not.
Who is right?Can someone elaborate?

[Sarevok]

Damn! People need to read more books and watch less TV!

Respected historians such as Borza and pathologists such as Oldach, by
analyzing the symptoms Alexander suffered from (as described by Arrian,
Plutarch and others) conclued that he died of typhoid. The chances that
he was poisoned by Olympia, Roxanne, Ptomoleus, sons of Antipater,
other enemies or whoever, is always considered to be very small.

Many historians also agree that he was saddened by the death of
Boukephalos and Hephestion, so this statement "Alexander, being an
eager man to recover from the illness and continue his way of life" is
not true.

Whatever. Instead of learning history from books, people are learning
history from TV documentaries. I think Stalin was right: "A person, a
problem. No person, no problem. To kill solves all problems."

As for ricin being traceable or not:

It IS traceable, but you must take the poisoned person and search
directly for ricin. If you simply have a sick person and make routin
exams to discover what is happening, you will think that he is
suffering from a disease or something. Ricin isn't easy to spot when
you are not looking for it, unlike mercury poisoning or similar things.

[nbk2000]

Lots of things that were once considered legends have later been shown to be true.

If the birds were dying in a city thousands of years ago, nobody would have remembered it today IF Alexander the Great hadn't rolled into town and died there. That he DID die turns the birds dying from something otherwise forgetable into a portent of great importance for those ancient people, what with omens being so central to many belief systems of the time.

And, where does WNV come from? The West Nile region, which is where? Where Alexander died.

[Sarevok]

He became ill and died in Babylonia, which was located near today's Bagdad (Iraq), not near the Nile (river located in Egypt, Sudan, Ethyopia and Uganda).

[rational611]

To Acetylene: I have got hold of some benzanthrone and would like to convert it into 3-nitrobenzanthrone. Could you post the exact nitrating procedure, ie the nitric acid concentrations, amount of the acid and the temperatures to be maintained. I was unable to locate anything of the sort on google.

I was wondering, since this chemical is a solid, does ingestion of its powered form act like a carcinogen? Is it very toxic to the body?

[akinrog]

Zerocrash says that ricin is traceable while PyroTech says it is not.
Who is right?Can someone elaborate?

The forensic scientists do not detect presence of ricin, but the antibodies the victim's body produces against it. The method, AFAIR, is an elisa (sp?) test involving tendency of the white blood cells to attach known molecules. So both of them are right and wrong but in diferent aspects. HTH

[cyclosarin]

Why not use a virus like HIV or rabies?

Without an obvious infection rabies is unlikely to be suspected during its incubation period and by the time symptoms appear it's virtually 100% fatal.

I think the incubation period can range from weeks to a year or so.

On the topic of carcinogens you could also consider using an oncogenic retrovirus to cause cancer.

[hatal]

Like WMD said, fungus. Well, mushrooms to be exact. Almost endless varieties of them having the potential to be used as a delayed poison. Poisonous species can take days to kill after ingestion, because of their slow absorbtion.

Further detailing the events of amanita poisoning. It produces symptoms very similar to indigestion after 6 hours + 24 hours. Then comes 1-2 days of remission, patient is getting better, symptoms disappear. After that, the patient is already a dead man. Liver and renal -failure, damage to heart muscles.

To most of them there is no convetional antidote, just a standard treatment which aims to surpress the unpleasant symptoms and to remove the posion out of the body before absorbtion.

A good idea would be to combine its poison with something that "masks" or smooth the symptoms of this indigestion in the first 24hours. Then the poison could work its way without giving any reasonable cause for medical attention

[cyclosarin]

A good idea would be to combine its poison with something that "masks" or smooth the symptoms of this indigestion in the first 24hours. Then the poison could work its way without giving any reasonable cause for medical attention

Or something that could complicate the initial symptoms and make them think that it's something else (preferably not poison).

Would the symptoms be any less obvious if you could somehow isolate a particular protein such as alpha-amanitin?