Stab or Slash?

[rolynd]

Assume you are in a fight and really want to kill someone with a knife, what would you use to kill - stab or slash?

Remember, you are in an real fight, adrenaline is high and your fine motor skills have gone awry ,the knife you have is usable for both stab and slash and to make it easier your opponent does not have a weapon with extended reach (gun ,baseball bat, etc.).

I myself would not limit me by using only stabbing but I would make it my main strategy because of several reasons. Number one being that slashes are more messy causing more blood loss and you can die from this but paramedic and hospital statistics show that the more deadly wounds being caused by stabbing (with either knife, sissor, screwdriver etc.) and the fatality rate of stab wounds is much higher. Second,stabbing is a really straightforward technique, does not telegraph if executed properly and uses the shortest way to the target and if the knife is held in hammer-grip none of your fine motor skills are necessary. (I think Hammer-Grip the best fighting grip) third, I did cut myself often even without noticing it especially if the knife is razorsharp while even the tiniest stab hurts like hell.

There have been numerous recently developed fancy knife fighting systems like "defanging the snake" or "biomechanikal cutting" but imho in real fighting for your life these are of no real use whatsoever. I also favour a fixed blade over a folder if permitted to carry because less can go wrong, just draw it and STAB that bastard fast and repeatedly. No fiddling, no opening or lockup faliure possible.

Please tell me your opinion and why you would use either technique.



PS: remember the romans armies with their gladius (mainly a stabbing weapon) conquering almost all of the old world at their time or the renaissance rapier which is almost useless for cutting but killed scores of people just by stabbing them...

[kddflx]

In a life or death situation, I'd think that I would keep two choices in mind depending on what the other guy does.
If I'm kind of close, and his arms are a bit to the sides I'd go for the stab in the gut. Stab, twist, pull!
On the other hand, if he's got his arms really close, or trying to pretend hes boxing I'd go for the slash.
Like you've said, with your fine motor skills gone, I think acomplishing the manouvers wouldn't be that hard. Other than that, stay sharp, move fast, and watch your back! :p

[festergrump]

Assuming we are squared off and he is aware of my presence:

Stab, slash, punch, kick, bite, bludgeon, choke, throw, gouge... whatever is neccesary to get the upper hand and utilize whatever opportune moment you have to deliver an attack. It's to the end. There are no RULES to survival, my friend.

To stab a vital organ or slash an armpit, jugular, crotch, or other major vein or artery matters only on which situation presents itself first.

On the other hand, I'd go out of my way to slash merely to anger and humiliate (in certain situations) if I felt especially motivated (mean as hell):

When he's incapacitated roll him on his belly and slash his ass-cheeks from side to side deeply several times. Every time he sits down and his wounds stress and stitches tweak and pop open again, he'll be remembering you, surely... ;)

[Jacks Complete]

The reason that the Roman army did half as well as they did was basically down to two simple things:-

1) They taught that the guy to your side was protecting you, and you were protecting the guy the other side of you. This stopped people running away, or even breaking line. Massive peer pressure.

2) They taught that you should use a simple stab to the opponent, then push with shields. The slashing wounds were not often dangerous (except for infection) but the stabs caused major blood loss and death during the subsequent pushing matches.

Also, the armour at the time was far better at stopping a slash from breaking the skin, since that is what it was designed for, and the bronze and iron swords had poor edges, so reducing the cutting effectiveness. A good stab, however, would often end a fight.

Most casualties actually come after the fight, when the opponent is running away. They get run down. Only a few very "special" people manage to kill someone face to face, even in the heat of the fight. It is after one side has won that the victory becomes complete.

[demosthenes]

If i was in that situation i would stab not slash because with stabbing you have a greater chance of killing the person by hitting one of their vital organs also with a slash it is possible to make a small flesh wound but with a stab the person might get afraid and not reataliate and he would defintly have to go to the hospital so you can make sure he has to give up some money for making the mistake of fighting me :D

[cyclonite4]

I agree with demosthenes on this one.
Stabs tend to be more fatal because they travel deep within the body, damaging veins, arteries, and sometimes organs. Slashes, most of the time just cut a small distance in, but because of their greater surface area, can damage more veins and arteries. I have also noticed that i can slash a person repetively in the same time frame as an effective stab.

Basically, if you want to kill, a few stabs will insure death. But if you just want to maim, then just give em a heap of slashes (but they still also might die).

[cursed-flesh]

I was recently in a knife fight (I didn't have one though), I caught a stupid 3 inch swiss in the chest. In somewhat of a retrospect, if I were to have had a knife at the time I can tell you adrenaline is one of those things that doesn't get along with thinking. It's hard to explain but in a knife fight it's probably better to let yourself rely on bodily reflexes and let your analytical mind sit back and watch.

[Jacks Complete]

cursed-flesh,
what happened? Someone stabbed you in the chest with a swiss army knife? How deep did it get?

[cursed-flesh]

Well I have a thick chest but it only went deep enough to chip my ribs. I was lucky enough to get it in the Hollywood area where good guys get mutilated in the upper right where there isn't anything really vital there. The upside to it though is that I got a Chinese doctor who stitched me up after the dreaded x-rays and performed acupuncture instead of freezing needles. Cant say it helped out as much as the latter does though. Incase anybody cares why it happened it was just some spun-out crack head doing whatever the f*** it is that goes through their heads.

[nbk2000]

If you ever have occasion to stab someone, hold the blade level to the ground, with the cutting edges side-to-side, rather than up and down. This way it slips nicely between the ribs, rather than getting stuck in them. Punch knives are good because they do this alingment almost automatically.

http://www.coldsteel.com/fixed-blades-safe-keeper.html

The TETS thread (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=4054) gave me the idea of making plastic spikes/shot for uses as weapons, using a sulfamide/formaldehyde resin to make the plastic. The plastic is inherently toxic, invisible to X-ray, and could be left in the body to ensure a kill.

Perhaps it (a spike) could be designed to have a strong core with a weak exterior that would flake off in the wound, leaving behind the finely divided poison resin in the wound.

[xyz]

You could add barbs to weak the exterior of the spike to make sure parts of it stay in the wound.

[wrythawk]

just do what you are familliar with and have trained the most.
slashing tends to stop an atacker whitout deadly injuring him, thrusting wil kill the person after the fight but youre agressor wil keep on going for a while.
anyway just keep thrusting/slashing youre attacker until he goes down.
when you are from a bigger distance just keep thrusting in reverse grip to the throat head area, and always keep the tip of the blade pointed at youre enemy.
and the most important is training, not just reading.
@nbk check out eric blair's toxic toys, he makes a hollow titanium rod to stick in someones artery and leave it there to bleed him dry, maybe if you fill the hollow part with a poison...
I think the thing is called the "purge" or "drain"

[Anthony]

I believe NBK has already started a thread on those.

A basic fundamental question: If you were fighting with a knife, how would you hold it?

Blade up in your fist, as you would if you were whittling a stick, or blade pointing down, like if you were scoring a line into something?

[xyz]

Personally, I would hold it horizontally with the blade up (any attempts by your opponent to grab the knife will result in you pulling away and your opponent having their forearm carved up). For stabbing at the abdomen (not a good target for lethality, but will incapacitate) then no change in grip is needed, just stab, pull upwards and twist, then pull the knife out again.

If you're stabbing the torso, do what NBK said and hold the knife flat to get it between the ribs.

Of course, the best thing to do is simply to have a knife that's sharp on both sides...

[nbk2000]

www.usualsuspect.net for "Toxic Toys".

BUT...they require registration for their forum and approval. Sounds familiar. 2 weeks? ;)

[Bert]

This fall I took a class in edged weapon (defense, suposedly, but the best defense is...). The main thing I took away from it is, if someone with addrenalin and a knife is within 20 feet of you, you're fucked wether you have a gun or not unless you've been well trained and practiced a lot.

And the answer is: Slash, stab and drag. Disembowelment is very effective.

And if someone with a knife does go after you when you're armed with a gun, fall backwards into a prone position with your feet up to fend them off, and keep shooting them untill they don't move anymore. Don't shoot yourself in the foot, idealy.

My instructor had some nasty scars...

[wrythawk]

well I got my approval after 24 hours, but I have some friends there so that might help.
if you want I'll mail you the pics, eric blair makes some realy freaky things.
and the good part about it is that a friend of mine (who is a knifemaker to) is as nuts as eric himself me and a friend of mine have a custom made by him realy freaky toys and at an unbeatable price, here in Belgium you pay the double for a production knife :s
well its not gonna be my last knife made by him anyway :d.
ow yeah did I mention that my friends custom is a neckknife made from G10 :d

[LuzRD]

i personally feel that slashing should be used in conjuction with stabbing, that is to say that while a clean shot may not be available to stab in a way that would end a fight, slashing is somthing that can be done at just about any point in a fight with less risk (than stabbing) of a more serious counter strike to yourself. so if you try to stab someone whos in a more defensive position, i feel its easier for him to do more damage to you in a counter slash/stabb if you are trying to assault with a stab when he is balanced and ready.

however if you occupy him with a series of quick slash's it may be enough to keep him busy so you can take him off guard when you change to a stab from a series off slashes. and you may be able to control the entire fight by not allowing him to shift from defense to offense, not to mention that a series of slashes may be enough to end the fight mentally for the opponent.

[SoulShadow]

For me it would depend, if I'm trying to kill the person (like I wanted to do to everyone in Iraq when my ass was there) id stab at the throat or the gut, Marine Corps teaches to only stab in those areas, to go for the kill, slashing is more for pulling down the enemy's defenses long enough to get a kill shot in, reason I wouldnt go vampire hunter d style and stab at his heart is because theres too much bone in the way and if your not stabing right you might just hit the edge of your blade and have it slide right off your opponent (slicing his nipple off in the process, yep, the fight would be over)

Now, as for wounding the person, or to give myself a really good running start (first rule of combat, sometimes its best to run away rather than fight) I'd get slashy slashy with legs or the arms and neck, but I'd get stabby up toward the thighs and the groin.

[Silentnite]

I just finished watching the new VanDamme movie *Wake of Death*. Obviously not a lot towards real life fighting, but some interesting stuff nonetheless. In one part, a knife battle begins, where Guy1 slashes Guy2*s forehead in order for the blood to blind him. It was rather drawn out for theatrical purposes, as there were more movements and cuts then there needed to be. It ends by Guy2 stabbing Guy1 in the nuts while laying on the ground. Not realistic but some neat points to stab for.
How many knives would you have in your hands? If two, then maybe a slash-stab manuever. Id personally go for the stab. Or, if he pissed me off, or came into my house, I would definitely take my time slashing...

[wrythawk]

I think a lot depends on what knife you're using at the time, if its a dagger a will stab, if it is somthin like a khukri or a machette I'll slash. its al about using you're knife in the most effective way.
but slashing would be a good defensive technique with a smaller knife of any pocket knife because you don't want the lock on it to fail because of fierce stabbing.
stabbing also takes more space of movement so when you are whitin arms length with your opponent you might prefer slashing yourself out of his "hug"
anyway I would never carry a knife for slashing only, cfr spyderco civilian...

[akinrog]

If you want to get a reduced (mitigated) sentence in case of getting busted, then you should use slashing. Slashing gives the appearance of not attacking but defending. In certain cases, you may even save your a** from prison when getting busted.

In addition, stabbing gives the prosecutor/judge(s) the appearance of that you are trying to kill your opponent which may cause them to convict you for life.

[Desmikes]

I studied combat sambo for a while and the one thing you learned is that forward stabbing is much more difficult to defend than slashing. Generally, as long as you don't use movie shower-murderer approach (full grip with blade poinitng down) you are doing fine. The only thing to remember when fighting someone with lots of experience is to avoid grips that limit you to a single attack, b/c it will be anticipated. Forward stabbing is much more professional.