Poisonous through Burning

[DimmuJesus]

I read an article a while back about how in New Zealand there were multiple cases of death resulting from smoking marijuana. Apparently someone (conspiracy theorists believe the New Zealand government) put out quite a bit of poisoned marijuana onto the streets, resulting in many deaths. This article did not at all discuss what poison was used, or even any of the symptoms.

This posed a question for me as to what toxins could be used in marijuana or tobacco for poisoning. Most poisons, such as proteins, are destroyed or lose their effect when heated or burned. Also, what could be used that would work as a time-delay poison in unregulated amounts to ensure further distribution of marijuana before the poison is discovered?

Doing some searching, there are so far only two possibilities I have come across. First is sodium metabisulfite, which releases sulphur dioxide when burned. Also polytetrafluoroethylenes, such as Teflon, have been shown to be harmful when burned. The possibility of Teflon powder packed into marijuana or tobacco comes to mind. However, I don't believe that either of these could be smoked in fatal amounts before becoming aware of the tainted smoke.

[c0deblue]

Interesting question, but your premise that the only effective agents would be those capable of withstanding burning is incorrect. Think about it for a minute. As a cigarette (or anything stronger) is smoked, the combustion products are drawn through unburnt tobacco. The longer the cigarette, the greater the temperature gradient between the lit end and the smoker's mouth. Unburned combustion products either travel all the way through or they condense at some point along the way. The hot (but not burning temperature) gases act upon the unburnt tobacco and the condensed byproducts and release what they contain into the stream of smoke. The nicotine and other substances we inhale when we smoke comes not from the burning tobacco, but from what is "distilled" out of the unburnt tobacco bed through which it passes. As the path becomes shorter, the percentage of products passing all the way through the "column" increases (imagine a variable reflux condenser that reduces in length as you smoke). Any liquid or solid in the tobacco that is capable of evaporation or outgassing at temperatures lower than the burning tip will therefore eventually wind up in the lungs.

[megalomania]

I suggest you research the use of cyanide compounds. I recall a story about the CIA poisoning Castro's cigar with cyanide. Hydrogen cyanide would be my first choice, but due to its volatility it may not stick around long enough at room temperature. If it was in solution it would be better, but you can't smoke a wet cigarette. Sodium or potassium cyanide may be heated enough to volatilize in the cigarette, and mercuric cyanide just sounds nasty. Doping the tobacco with a hard street drug may also work. Something like PCP, heroin, or LSD may cause an overdose. I just finished watching an episode of OZ a few hours ago where Burr Redding fed slipped something called a "mindfuck" into the food of one of the mob guys. The mindfuck was a large dose of LSd that caused him to go braindead. Now I know a TV show is hardly an authority to go by, but this mindfuck thing seems to have a ring of truth. Might be worth looking into.

[festergrump]

I don't think you can die from overdose of LSD. The average dose during the 1960's was 250 mcg while the discoverer of LSD, Albert Hofmann (IIRC) imbibed more than 100 times that dose soon after discovering it. A "magical" bicycle ride home from the lab was all he suffered.

Ergot, on the other hand (the wheat mold that was the focus of Albert Hofmann's studies in the first place) would have it's merits as a slow acting and maddening poison. Heat seems to not affect it's poisonous properties as it was often accidently baked in loaves of bread (along with the wheat host).

[akinrog]

Ergot, on the other hand (the wheat mold that was the focus of Albert Hofmann's studies in the first place) would have it's merits as a slow acting and maddening poison. Heat seems to not affect it's poisonous properties as it was often accidently baked in loaves of bread (along with the wheat host).

That's Ergotism (aka Saint Antony's Fire). Ergotism is caused by the the very fungi you just referred to above (i.e. Claviceps purpurea (http://botit.botany.wisc.edu/toms_fungi/oct99.html)). However it not only causes maddening but also converting the people into rotting (but living) carcasses. When you are a subject of ergotism your flesh start rotting. :eek:

However I am not sure the dose/exposure time etc. regarding ergotism. HTH

Edit : I found another article (http://www.angelfire.com/wizard/kimbrough/Textbook/Ergotism_blue.htm) which is more comprehensive regarding ergotism. Actually it is not lysergic acid which causes rotting/gangrene but another alkoloid present in Clavicepts purpura, namely "ertotaline".

According to the article, ertotaline "causes constriction of smooth muscles and ensuing restriction of peripheral blood supplies that can lead to gangrene and death." Very interesting! :D

Please forgive me mods but I cannot help quoting the interesting part of disease definition :
What was the disease like? Gangrenous ergotism was accompanied with fatigue, cold/tingling sensations, severe muscle pain, swollen inflamed limbs and burning pain, followed by chills. Limbs become numb, turn black and mummify :eek:

[Ropik]

In my country, some marijuana growers mutate it's seeds with a colchicine solution. Some deaths resulted from smoking the first crop of weed. If the colchicine is so toxic, I am sure that injecting the solution in the cigarette with a hypodermic syringe would have serious effects on the smoker's health :D .

[FUTI]

Colchicine is poison, but I doubt that concentration used for causing polyploidy can be lethal after the plant growth in the crop. That looks like someone make huge mistake and waste lot of colchicine.

The best ideas so far are those with almond flavored joint;)

BTW I read sometime ago that there is some plant in Australia that can contaminate crops and contain some toxic quinone that cause kidney failure. Can someone post a link to some more info?

[teshilo]

Interesting discussion ,and ideas about non toxic compound added in cigarette paper and after smoking give more toxic compounds sounds like .And if add in tobacco nicotine sulfate in powder form."Tobacco abuse- "may be or not to be? :D :D

[Anthony]

LD50 for LSD is said to be 12,000 ug. Doubling it would probably be a good idea.

Source: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_dose.shtml

Don't know what 24mg of LSD would cost though!

[megalomania]

I wonder if it would be feasable to adulterate the cigarette with a massive dose of pure nicotine? The plus side to this is it may fool a coroner tox screen. A lethal dose of nicotine is 0.6-1.0 mg per Kg of body weight, so that is 40-60 mg on average. The average cigarette contains 15-25 mg of nicotine, but only 1-2 mg is actually taken up in smoke, and only 90% of the nicotine in that smoke is absorbed by the lungs. Seems to me the bare minimum you would need is 250 mg, but a more likely figure would be 500 mg.

What a fun way to die, if you enjoy smoking. That last drag would be the best ever.

[nbk2000]

Toxic metal salts, like cadmium or beryllium oxides, would be vaporized by the heat of a joint and the smoke would cause painful deaths in short order, not only for the smoker, but likely those in close proximity as well, or at least seriously sickening them.

[Isotoxin]

Megla! You should know better; LSD is destroyed at low temps and by light.

[A2675770]

I don't think you can die from overdose of LSD.

No, but I heard before of a case where someone took LSD paper hits and instead of soaking them in the LSD, they soaked them in cyanide then ditched them and (I'm assuming) some crackhead - drug fiend - picked up and distributed around the area.

Creative I thought,

-A26

[Isotoxin]

No, but I heard before of a case where someone took LSD paper hits and instead of soaking them in the LSD, they soaked them in cyanide then ditched them and (I'm assuming) some crackhead - drug fiend - picked up and distributed around the area.

Creative I thought

NO! That would not work - the most a blotter tab can hold is about 4mg and generally there is only about 100ug of LSD25 on them.

The LD50 of NaCN is LD50 6.4 mg kg so it would be impossible to kill someone even with serveral tabs.

[megalomania]

In junior high science class (7th grade) we had to give reports in front of the class every month. I choose to do one of mine on LSD because it sounded cool (lysergic acid diethylamide, music to a wannabe chemists ears). One of the requirements was we had to have some sort of visual aid... Heh, I was screwed because what can I show them for LSD? I mixed a little potassium permanganate in a vial and told the class it was real LSD that I got from a doctor. I said it was denatured so no one could actually use it. (Yes someone from the calss asked if they could use it, and at that moment I realized it was perhaps not such a good idea to bring an illegal drug into a school, even though this was the 80's and not such a big deal as it would be today. Good improve eh? Uh yeah it's contaminated with something so you can't use it). The teacher was impressed and said he had deard LSD is blue.

I have carried the guilt for my lie for many years :( To this day I don't know if the teacher knew I was lieing and said he knew LSD was blue to humor me or he was really impressed. Either way I got an A...

Later in the year I did a report on the brain. I bought a sheep brain and ended up throwing the pitutary gland at my partner because he was a duymb ass. The only reason I wanted to do a report on the brain was so I could buy one (my parents, like so many others just don't approve of organs in the house unless it's for school). I got stuck with my dumb ass partner who was a fag. I didn't let him do anything (of the research) I just told him what to say for his part. He pissed me off while I was showing the brain around so I brained him with the gland (see, I worked a pun in there :) ) 15 years later my sister told me he finally came out of the closet. Everybody knew he was a fag, some kids you can just tell. Being an openly gay fag in most high schools around here is a death sentence.

In the 8th grade I did a report on the laser so I could buy one. I spent nearly $1000 of my parents money (we had a joint account my mom and me) buying the thing with the intention of returning it and getting my money back. A good plan in theory, but I wussed out when it came time to return the thing because there were all the questions to answer, authorization numbers to get, and all this stuff a 13 year old kid is not equipped to handle especially when he is pulling a short con. The bastards called back and got my mom... You can see where this is headed. I didn't get my own bank account again until I was 18 and my parents made me write a letter of apoligy. It is ironic I can get a laser of the same power as that giant thing for $5 today that can fit in a pen.

Oh, I also stole a book about lasers from the library and never returned it.

I feel better now.

[aikon]

Colchicine is poison, but I doubt that concentration used for causing polyploidy can be lethal after the plant growth in the crop...

Colchicine would be a good way to go. David Harber discusses this in Assorted Nasties:
...Colchicine has also been used by the drug culture to induce genetic mutations in the cannabis plant and thus, increase its potency. The seeds from the mutated plants are harvested and sown to grow a new and more potent crop. If marijuana from the original plant is smoked, fatalities are possible, and indeed likely to occur....
...The fatal dose is unknown but is certainly less than the 20mg oral dose...
...Dissolve the dose of colchicine in the minimum of alcohol and drip in the open end of a cigarette...

Another possible substance would be Aconitine. Harber writes the following about poisoned .32 caliber bullets:
...Five prisoners were shot in once in the upper thigh and their reactions observed. For 20 to 25 minutes nothing unusal happened, then they began to experiencing heavy salivation and vomiting, progressing to convulsions and finally death about 2 hours afer they were shot. These bullets contained the crystalline form wich is the most deadly, especially when heated to high temperature as it is in a bullet.

Both substances seems to withstand higher temperatures and should be therefore ideal for cigarette poisoning.

[FUTI]

I think that substance I mentioned before in this thread could be Stypandrone or some of its related substances.