Vitamin C and AP

[nbk2000]

Since I'm doing spring cleaning, and have nothing better to do, I'm going to see if you can make AP using vitamin C as the acid catalyst.

I just mixed (8 AM PST) 1/3 cup of generic nailpolish remover (acetone, water, glycerine, dye) with 2/3 cup of 12% H2O2 and added 1 teaspoon of C.P. vitamin C (ascorbic acid) to the mix. It's sitting in the fridge as we speak so we'll see if it does anything.

[Madog555]

is asorbic acid organic? AP can only be made with mineral acids. maybe this would work with HMTD

[kingspaz]

yer, i agree with madog555. not that i've tried it though, but i have read many times that mineral acid is required for AP but not HMTD. so, in theory no reaction should take place as ascorbic is an organic acid. but still this will be interesting to dispute or prove that organic acids cannot be used for AP.

[nbk2000]

Well, it's been 7 hours in the freezer and I've got nothing but ice to show for it, so I guess organic acids are no good.

Oh well, worth a try just to find out for sure, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[kingspaz]

definately, i don't think anyone had actually tried it to test.
its these little useful scraps of knowledge and knowhow that help make this place as good as it is.

[Yikes]

NBK, I can probably tell you why it didn't work:
Ascorbic acid in aqueous solution is readily oxidized by air -and even faster by hydrogen peroxide!- to dehydroascorbic acid.
Dehydroascorbic acid is practically neutral: no acid - no reaction - no AP.

(Ascorbic acid is a well-known antioxidant.)

[nbk2000]

True, but it's never good to assume something will (or won't) work without actually testing it first.

At least we now know for sure that it doesn't work.

Perhaps its anti-oxidant property could be used after making it in the regular manner for some useful purpose. After all, it is a fuel for an oxidizer in VitC propellant.

[PYRO500]

something I want to know is if AP would work with stomach acid, for the desprate

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

Yes, it would (stomach acid is hydrochloric acid). I can't help but chuckle when imagining the sight of someone vomiting into a beaker of acetone and hydrogen peroxide...

[Yi]

If ascorbic acid is oxidised and neutralised quickly in aqueous solution of H2O2 then it would not explain why it works for HMTD.

[Mr Cool]

But no-one has said it does work for HMTD...

[Alchemist]

Hello all,

Recently I got some Tin from a school chemistry teacher and made both SnCl4 and SnCl2. I used these as the catalyst for AP instead of acid as discribed in the FTP paper "a bit of info on AP". It produced about 1.5 to 3 times as much AP as with the acid catalyst. It does NOT say so in the paper, but I am also thinking about trying Ferric Chloride and maybe Aluminum Chloride since both are Cl3. Just a thought.

Have fun!!!

[Zambosan]

I understand that ascorbic acid will oxidize too readily to be useful... but what exactly is it about organic acids that make them ineffective for AP?

<small>[ July 18, 2002, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: Zambosan ]</small>

[Yi]

Mr Cool, I was just wondering why does citric acid work as catalyst for HMTD if it doesn't for AP. i.e. if the acid is oxidised and the solution neutralised, there won't be any H+ ions to work as catalyst. For either case this should mean that the reaction will not occur (very fast anyway). Sorry if there was some confusion.

Alchemist, I used SnCl2.2H2O and I got very very bad results...did you the same method as on the paper? The method I used is described in the Tetrameric thread.

[nbk2000]

Drink the acetone/peroxide mix, then approach the school bully and DARE HIM to punch you in the belly. Solves two problems in one blow :D

Is someone going to try making HTMD using ascorbic (Vitamin C) instead of citric acid? That should be next on the agenda.

[Zambosan]

I was under the impression that this would be futile, since aqueous solutions of ascorbic acid oxidize (by themselves) very quickly... making them useless for either reaction, regardless of the organic/mineral acid issue. Of course, theory and reality are two different beasts...

[kingspaz]

i think the more important question here is why do only mineral acids work for AP?
as Zambosan said, it must be something to do with the chemistry of hexamine and acetone. this should inturn lead onto us having a much greater undertsanding of WHY the reaction occurs and possible ways to improve it.

[vulture]

The explanation is simple, in acidic environment hexamine starts to decompose into formaldehyde and ammonia. This is why you use organic acids, they are usually weaker and don't form reactive ions in solution like mineral acids do.

Acetone is a ketone, which means it's already oxidized and is therefore more resistant.

<small>[ March 30, 2002, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: vulture ]</small>

[kingspaz]

thanks vulture! now it all makes sense :D

[Yi]

Ahh, excellent.

[Zambosan]

Thanks vulture!

<small>[ July 18, 2002, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: Zambosan ]</small>

[vulture]

Theoretically it should work.
But acetic acid is a lot weaker acid than citric acid and maybe it's oxidized or destroyed by the hydrogen peroxide since it's a flammable liquid and citric acid isn't.

BTW, about the decomposition of hexamine in acidic environment, i believe the ammonia which is formed reacts with the anorganic radicals ( SO4, Cl, ...) of mineral acids, thereby moving the equilibrum more to the right.

<small>[ April 02, 2002, 02:30 AM: Message edited by: vulture ]</small>