Fuse??

[VX]

This is my first post, bear with me.

Where can I obtain fuse from in the UK.
I did a search for this (several actually) to find it recommended that I should try Skylighter, Firefox, and Pyrotek... so I did, Skylighter will not export fuse at all (anymore?), Firefox are getting back to me and Pyrotek don't state anything on their site, and have yet to contact me.

However I am going to have a problem if non of them will supply me, anyone got any ideas,
Does anyone know if you can purchase fuse in THIS country, without a license?

Thanks in advance for any reply,
VX

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Just do it! Carefuly!!



[This message has been edited by VX (edited 11-26-2001).]

[J]

As far as I know, you can't buy anything at a reasonable price. Do a search for HFM Pyrotechnics (the link's here somewhere), they sell some expensive stuff.

The only real option is to make your own. If someone can prove me wrong, please do!

J

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[Anthony]

Skylighter used to sell it but they pussied out and don't export anymore.

For homemade fuse, try a search on the KMnO4/silicon fuse that someone here (sorry can't remember who) created.

[VX]

I was hoping you wouldn't say that. But thanks anyway, any other ideas would be greatly appreciated.

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Just do it! Carefuly!!

[DarkAngel]

I once called a pyro show company and said that im into model rocketry and needed to have fuse insteed of electronic igniters.
They said: "sure whe sell,,(he said some types they sold)"
Than he asked me if i had somekind of license i said that i didn't had one than he said that you need one in order to buy fuse he gave me a number and said that i needed to call that number and they would probably gave you one if you say your into rocketry.

But as i already have fuse (from another member) and im not 18 yet i didn't whan't to call the number and ask if i could get one.

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ÐarkAngel

For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1 (http://www.run.to/section1)
sendtosection1@hotmail.com

[mark]

http://www.angelfire.com/on/pyrotechnicalities/index.html

Lots of how toos on making fuse.

[Anthony]

You don't need any license to buy fuse in the UK. The pyro suppliers just like to make you jump through hoops instead, usually with minimum quantities of a case of reels. Smallest quantity I knew of for sale (besides HFM) was a 100m reel for about £70.

Legally, you do not need a license to shoot a fireworks display of any size (including public displays), it's also perfectly legal to string commercial fireworks together with fuse. So there's no reason why they can demand some kind of pyro license. If you are ok with it, then it's probably best to phone a few pyro companies and see if they'll sell you a reel as none I've seen advertise fuse on their website.

[SafetyLast]

I am 17 and in the US and I have never had any problems with ordering my fuse through the mail from Pyrotek.
Their price is $4 for 10ft. and $1 S&H they got it to me in about 2 weeks after I sent away for it. They sell a large variety of fuse and I think that they will export to the UK.
heres the link http://www.pyrotek.org/cgi/newCataloger.cgi

only problem is that the picture shows green fuse (side spit) and they actually ship you red fuse (end spit) but that isn't really a problem as it is just as reliable (fuse is fuse as long as it works right).

[DarkAngel]

You do need a lincense here in Holland there very tough about anything related to pyro certainly after the Enschede disaster (Firework warehouse catched fire=Neighbour hood destroyed)
In other country's it's normall to launch rockets ,since last year i only saw people doing it on discovery channel :)
but now i know a few stores that sell estes products.

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ÐarkAngel

For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1 (http://www.run.to/section1)
sendtosection1@hotmail.com

[Madog555]

i recently bought 100ft of fuse from pyrotek along with some other pyro goddies

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"True freedome is not without anarchy"

[jamamee]

I know this thread is long since dead but I thought some might find this link useful:
http://www.hobbychem.co.uk/

they only ship to the UK and sell fuses among other things.

[totenkov]

Well I cant imagine that would be overly helpful to those who don't live in the UK.

Better to to try these guys:

http://www.pyroplanet.co.uk/

I live in Canada and it is damn hard to find fuse anywhere. I have bought numerous times with fast shipping and no problems. They ship to the US Canada and the UK.

I am stocking chems because they are already disappearing off the shelves a little quick for my liking.

[Jacks Complete]

Still useful for those here.

The UK version of the pyroplanet site is useless - better to go directly to www.xtremesurvival.co.uk who deal with the UK distribution.

[Emil]

Hobby chem actually used to sell more than they do now. I was quite dissapointed when they re vamped their site and stated they would not be selling things like Ammonium nitrate, Ammonium perchlorate and other things. But as for fuse they still sell that at least.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I had a chance once to look at different fuse through a light-strength magnification microscope (30x) and noticed several things.
High-quality visco made by Hogden (the powder mfg.) had a very finely defined core of BP and really looked well made.
Chinese fuse (in addition to having less of a NC lacquer coating) appeared to be very crude. The "core", if you could call it that, appeared to be "twisted in" to the body of the fuse.

Now, if what I saw is any indicator, there may be several design of machines for fuse. Where I'm going here is that I have seen the "spools of thread" machine that has a trough to drip in BP as a core.
But I have been "told" of another machine that is much more simplistic, used often in china (and other Asian countries). I am trying to get more information on this simplistic machine. And, of course, I will share what I know as I get a firm hand on it.

Anyone know anything about machines on a professional level; the names, who sells them, etc....Please share.

[gaussincarnate]

Here's a few:
http://www.chinafireworks.net/machine/index.htm
(chinese fuse machines, rather confusing website)

Link below does not work, but gives you an idea of where to look
http://www.fireworkstown.com/memProductDtls.asp?Id=84&pId=670
(Not fuse making per se, but might work)

DIY plans
http://www.truetex.com/turner_visco.pdf

[Bert]

There are quite a number of YouTube videos of visco fuse making machines. These range from home made, yet very professional:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf7Xb7PbK8c
To home made, apparently by teenagers with cruder but still effective workmanship...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1NytwLUYCA
To video of Chinese factory machines and practices:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIyjZcfKjjU

Several videos are tutorials on building, others have links to such. Just search YouTube for "visco fuse" I'm pleased to see the number of people who have been able to manufacture workable machines. I'll be even happier to see 1/4" safety fuse machines produced by hobby pyrotechnists. Only needs 3 more stations on the machine... Tar, paper wrap, a 3rd wrap of thread or cloth tape and you'd have it!

[Double-Oh-Zero]

Does anyone maybe know a place that will sell chemicals, fuse etc. here in South Africa? I have been looking, but the southern tip of the dark continent is not very yielding. Unfortunately the exchange rate is not too kind, so importing is out of the equation.


Thanks for the help...

[parabolic]

Bert,

I also recently stumbled on those videos on youtube, I have seen many photos of the machines in the videos before, but never seen them running, until last week. They are great to watch.

[strongwbow]

Sorry Mate. Her Majesty takes a dim view of such things being easy to purchase in the UK. However there are several companies in the Channel Islands operating under Royal aegis that deal in it. Fuse is a simple item but can cause a LOT of complications in the wrong hands.

[schotti]

I live in Denmark and i order my canon fuse (viscos) at http://www.pyroplanet.co.uk/
wihtout any problems

[Ratman2050]

SWIM ordered his from pyrocreations.com There shipping is cheaper than cannonfuse's.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

SWIM ordered his from pyrocreations.com There shipping is cheaper than cannonfuse's. I once heard some seriously negative things about the later company; very little bad about the former. I think you did well in your acquisition.

[Ratman2050]

Well, they just sent me the shipping info so I will see how it comes.

[Silentnite]

Do they have gun/knife/hunting shows in the UK or is it pretty scarce? That's where I like to pick up some fuse, its not the greatest quality and it can be expensive, but cash is a nice way to do business. Otherwise I'm searching for a reliable source around my area.

[peppovsky]

Not relevant to the professional fuse issue, I did lately began experimenting with Nitrocellulose fuses (since I'm pretty enthusiastic as of late for nitrocellulose in general...).

I went and bought some shoelaces (round and white - round for the cotton string inside, white as for minimal amount of dye... see this image for example: http://www.choiceful.com/prod_image/61277_m.jpg), next the endings were cut, the cotton string was pulled out, soaked in Hexane (for a couple of hours) then evaporated and soaked in Acetone (again, for 2 hours), then evaporated* and nitrated with the well known 50/50 by vol (98%)H2SO4/(68%)HNO3 mixture.

5 ml of the nitrating acid mix is enough for a whole lace, which is about 16.5'' long.

It burns quite fast, about 5-7'' a second, but it has almost no residue, and it ignites black powder and flash powder, for what I've tried so far.
...And it's damn cheap, too ;)

Now I know what you are all thinking - "Why not just buy the cotton string itself and waste money on short shoelaces?". I agree, and that's my next move... I just happened to walk by a shoe store the other day when the idea and urge stroke me, then went back home and experimented. Success is always fun :)

(*The Hexane/Acetone soaking was done as to make sure any polyester/plastic remains are dismiss, since it could degrade the quality of the product. I'm not actually sure if there are any of these materials there, but better safe then sorry...)

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Cotton string fuse is not as simplistic as many have been lead to believe on first blush. There are ways to make this basic concept reach new ground. I have done some experimenting with this back in the the day and have some notes of an experiment that is relevant to topic from a generalized perspective.


“CORE-LESS” FUSE
The introduction of oxidizer-fuel deflagerant intimate mixture to the fibers of raw cotton via solution adhesion.
EXAMPLE:
A fuse may be developed by the use of pure cotton string as a base on which to use a super saturated solution of an oxidizer and fuel. The concept is that with both an oxidizer and fuel in solution, they would saturate the cotton fibers in a manner that could not be duplicated with a wound core fuse. Actually an improvement on the typical burning core implementation of the “visco” type.
Whether this is a viable technique or a stop-gap measure used for improvisation is debatable. If enough time and thought is placed in this concept, it may actually be an improvement on the “visco” type fuse. It certainly functions as effectively when enough time is take with it’s manufacture. The concepts themselves are logical and empirical evidence shows that fuse made with these techniques stand up to use factors as well as Visco type fuse. Fuse made with these techniques also appear to burn with the consistency of commercial fuse; given that enough time and care is taken in it’s preparation.
The end result may also be coated with NC lacquer (as typical Visco fuse) prior to drying.

-> The concepts are simple. The carrier is a solvent that both the oxidizer and fuel will reach solution in. That solvent is applied in a saturation to a PURE COTTON string element. This basic element cannot be over stated to be important to the overall functionality of the fuse. It must be pure cotton and have absolutely NO additives what so ever.
From that point the saturation of the oxidizer and fuel is essentially part of the cellulose fibers of the cotton. The cotton is NOT used as a fuel in this concept, even those it would become so upon burning. It would be separate as the material that forms the deflagerant component (oxidizer/fuel mix) is made to mix so intimately that the burn rate is thus controlled. Once more: if the cotton threads are made to play the role of fuel, the mix will not be intimate enough to maintain consistency and controllability via ratios & proportions.

What solvents were used was a material that allowed the saturated solution of both as well as functioned as a carrier agent. Alcohols were settled upon as acetone did not function that well with both fuel and oxidizers in many cases. The solvent choice is a critical area obviously.
The oxidizers of choice were the chlorates. Even though they maintain many issues, they have enough oxygen to warrant the bother. Permanganates were also evaluated but the concept of solution for both had introduced a few issue with the use of permanganates. Nitrates simply did not produce enough oxygen for this concept. The oxidizer choice has to release an enormous amount of oxygen.
The fuels were a bit of a problem. Metal fuels would not go into solution. Metal salts posed issues with the chlorates. However some metal salts appears to offer promise. Copper, which offered a great many issues with chlorates, did function even as sulfates; but long term safety consideration precluded their use on any extended basis. It appears after some testing that organic resin in solution with chlorates posed the best compromise between safety and performance and long term reliability. In this concept the resin used with shellac (insect based) profession pyrotechnic resin sourced by quality from a wood working vendor as the price from pyro suppliers was much too high and the quality was not what it could be. The resin went in to solution with alcohol very well. The chlorates went into solution and thus a saturated solution of fuel & oxidizer would exist, mixed as intimately as possible. It would then be introduced into the cotton fibers by simply soaking at an elevated temp (near boil 80C) and allowed to dry after the string was run through a device o squeeze the excess from the cellulose material. What was left was a near original looking cotton string that was bendable and had no caking on it’s exterior.

There are other elements o the fuel concept of introduction into a pre-existing string. Single micron sized metal fuel CAN be carried into the fibers! The type of material available for this does exist. It is Ekhart 5413 INK GRADE ALUMINUM. This is extremely expensive Al that is no larger than 2um and exists as “air float” in it’s bulk level. It’s cost is near prohibitive (approx. $30 a pound in bulk). And nearly impossible to buy as the company sells INK not it’s component parts (Ekhart makes the Al for it’s own consumption but has sold the Al in the past at a huge profit). This level of metal fuel will float within the solution and be carried into the string so long as the solution is not allowed to settle. It will also NOT be easily transferred out by manipulation or stress as it is so small it can attach to the fiber themselves. But this is a unique grade of metal fuel and it’s equivalent in Magnesium, copper, tin, iron, or nickel does not frequent the commercial market. Fuel/reducing agents were also experimented with such as sulfur, and sodium benzoate [C6H5COONa] Both of which reduced the level of ignition temp and controlled the level of flame spit. Metal fuels may be utilized but as an adjunctive, not primary choice. They must be single micron sized and sub-micron particulate.
Some of the following are compositions utilized with varying degrees of success. NOTE: all were successful. Some successful in the extreme making this a viable fuse technique that would quite literally function as a professional alternative. The criteria were very high for functionality. The completed fuse has to reliably burn consistently and stand up to near abusive manipulation. This concept works well.
1.)
KCLO3 70%
RESIN 30%
2.)
***KCLO3 60%
***RESIN 30%
***Al 10%
3.)
###KCLO3 60%
###RESIN 30%
###Lead Acetate 10%
4.)
~~~KCLO3 70%
~~~RESIN 30%
~~~Sodium Benzoate 10%

{adjunctive}
copper acetate
copper sulfate

Were all attempted on a short term basis due to copper’s effect with chlorates. The testing was made in efforts to test metal salts. The safety issues with copper, sulfates, etc, etc were very much on the author's mind and these materials were utilized as experiments on a short term only to evaluate metal salts, etc.

At this point I do not believe that this is improvisation on an old theme, but new stuff. This concept DOES create a reliable, workable time fuse that maintains consistent burn rates and has strength beyond that of Visco's problem with bending. The above is a concept, albeit a very viable one. but the overall element of placing oxidizer-fuel into the core of the cellulose prevents the bending to ruin the powder train. The whole of the finished product may be coated with NC lacquer for additional strength and bending will not alter burn rate when completed as illustrated. Dates on this were my own from 1999-01. Some material was taken from EPP '00 TTBoMK.

[Ethyl]

I used a much simpler version of fuse similar to the fuse described in the post above. I made a saturated solution of sodium nitrate, soaked a cotton string in it and dried it in the oven (not above 100 C as the fuse may ignite). The resulting fuse is flexible but not very (bending it too much causes the sodium nitrate to crack). It is hygroscopic and should be stored in a airtight container. I used it successfully a few times (it never failed for me). Wrapped in Al foil it burned in very moist ground. I don't remember the exact burn rate but it burned very slow.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

The materials tested to reach the conclusions therein were several dozen, I believe many things were tried to reach the conclusion that chlorate/Resin (with perhaps an enhancement fuel also) were close to ideal choices. The performance of the above is really quite impressive. There are drying and coating jigs for the use of NC lacquer coatings and fuel embedding that can be made and utilized. but the concept, although simplistic superficially, is a solid one.

Not all people are aware that the flame spit from various fuses are different depending on construction / design. Some are made to be stronger than others, shoot from the side as well as the end, etc. With a "core-less" fuse you may have less options in that regard but there are some measures you can take to create an extremely hot burn if that is needed. However the consistency and reliability are foremost. If that requirement is met; you have a useful tool.

[Bacon46]

Cotton string fuse is not as simplistic as many have been lead to believe on first blush. There are ways to make this basic concept reach new ground.

I have been toying with the same basic concept for a couple of months.

What got me thinking in that direction was I use a cotton cloth to filter crude KClO3 from processed electrolyte. I decided to burn a piece of that material that had sat around long enough to dry out. I wadded it into a ball approximately six inches in diameter and hit it with a propane torch. The resulting flash removed most of the hair from my left arm, one eyebrow and some of the hair on the left side of my head. :o Really stupid move, but I thought the next time I fire up a chlorate cell I am going to soak a ball of cotton string in the electrolyte and see if I can use it as a fuse.

I tested the theory by soaking some cotton string in a saturated solution of KClO3 but the result was a string that smoldered and fizzled once in awhile. I then tried dusting the saturated string in 4-6 micron atomized aluminum but the results were not much better. I am not sure why the electrolyte worked so much better, maybe it was the cotton fiber itself. There was a small amount (2g per liter) of K2CrO7 in the electrolyte but I wouldn't think that would make that much difference. I intend on pursuing it further as soon as I have some time. I may add sucrose or dextrose to the solution.

This type of fuse may be okay for bottle rockets and firecrackers but it will never match the performance a visco type fuse under water or underground. My objective is to use it as “Quick Match”.

By the way; I purchased 6kg of 4-6 micron atomized aluminum on Ebay for $130.00 US including shipping. It makes incredible flash powder.

[totenkov]

Yes 4-6 micron is the sweet spot for good flash....however are you opening up a flash factory?!

[Charles Owlen Picket]

There is a basic issue of extremely intimate (in saturation) mix of oxidizer/fuel. If both go into solution they can both (upon drying) combine within the fiber of raw cotton. The cotton is not used as the fuel in this instance as it would not have the immediacy in deflagration to provide burn-rate consistency. I believe that if coated with NC lacquer in a professional manner it MAY even burn under water!
When setting up a drying jig, there are methods to provide for a consistent coating of NC lacquer on the same level as Visco. I'm not talking about "fast, fun get-it-done" stuff here, but a high quality effort with quality materials. the basic concept really does work better than could be explained in words. HERE IS A GOOD OPPORTUNITY FOR A VIDEO...

Since the CPSC efforts there has been a lot of selling of Al on Ebay. One fellow who I knew back some years back told me an interesting story. He said that people are selling mixed lots and carbon-cut lots of Al powder to cheat the consumer on Ebay. What some "profit oriented" individuals have done was mix paint grade with high end Al together. This is still VERY reactive but allows for a huge profit margin. Others are selling an "Indian Black" that is really a mid-level quality Al that has some lampblack (for weight, color & reactivity) in it. This also makes a VERY reactive aluminum that costs very little. The only way the buyer can tell is to use a microscope.

I hope you did well on Ebay. The product is most likely fine....But I am always suspicious of that place. I always thought that if it seems too good to be true it probably is.

[Bacon46]

Yes 4-6 micron is the sweet spot for good flash....however are you opening up a flash factory?!

No I’m not opening a flash factory.:) I use it in star, fountain, sparkler and other various compositions. I bought so much because I got way more bang for the buck by buying larger quantities. I figure I’ll use it eventually.

There is a basic issue of extremely intimate (in saturation) mix of oxidizer/fuel. If both go into solution they can both (upon drying) combine within the fiber of raw cotton. The cotton is not used as the fuel in this instance as it would not have the immediacy in deflagration to provide burn-rate consistency.

Makes sense; I will do another saturated solution and add dextrose as a fuel.
I would love to hear some ideas on a fuse coating process. It’s not so much applying the coating as it is getting the coating to dry before it hits the take-up spool.

I have started designing a visco fuse winding machine and coating the fuse efficiently in bulk lengths is one of the issues I am having a hard time with. At this point I think I will do the fuse winding and coating in two separate operations using two different machines.

I try not to do anything half-ass if I can help it, but some situations require either loads of money I don’t have, or some improvisation. One way of drying the coating quickly that comes to mind, is to run the fuse past a bank of commercial heat guns. They put out a lot of heat and in an emergency or unexpected stop they would not ignite the fuse.

I have attached a 3-D model of the visco winding machine I am working on. It’s incomplete but will give you an idea of the quality of machine I intend to build. I would appreciate any input people may have on that as well.

The guy I get the aluminum from is not a pyrotechnic supplier. He specializes in powdered metals for industrial use. This is the third time I have bought from him and so far no problems but I too am very careful when shopping on Ebay.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I think I will buy a really nice camera or video camera soon so I can put some pictures up. I agree that it's best to do whatever you can not to do anything half ass. The coating of the fuse is not too complicated but the device needs to maintain a consistent level of material as the string is drawn through.

Simply making a device that has an opening to wipe the excess NC off the base material is sufficient IF the NC is thick. But consistency is really what it's all about. Just like rifle accuracy is all about consistency, burn rate modifiers and coatings have to have the uniform level of volume measurement maintained from one inch to another. The best way to do that is to have the NC lacquer pretty thick (25%+).

A device that would work is something akin to a fishing reel. Picture a reel inside a container holding the lacquer. The string peeks through a hole the wipes the circumference of the string as it's drawn through the NC. This could be done by hand of course and just pull the string through a hole in a plate that wipes the string of excess. The key to uniformity is to have the NC lacquer thick so that it does not run. The device may be of less importance than the lacquer itself.