Military propaganda in schools

[cyclonite4]

Today we were forced to watch a 'motivational' presentation, called 'True Blue', which is supposed to deliver innocent messages to help us better unnderstand to be a functional member of society, be a better person, etc.

At the start of the presentation, the sponsors of the short film are listed:
An insurance company,
and The ARMY, NAVY, and AIR FORCE, in large, bold writing.

What place does the military have within a 'educational' school presentation?


After the sponsors area acknowledged, lots of short (maximum 1 second long) clips of action, violence and similarly themed clips are played.

Yet again, how is this relevant to the presentations topic?


During the presentation, they interview people with stories that relate to the topic, and curiosly, couldn't help but interview a lieutenant.



The way I see it, the film is intended to shove thoughts of the military into our minds, while posing to be an innocent film. The military has little to do with the topic of the film, yet has overtaken the theme of it.

Any thoughts? Does this happen often elsewhere?

[Brakkie]

You live in Australie as I see. Hmm that's weird. I think that it will happen in America on a large scale though. In holland you got this commercial for The Army and Air Force but it's just a commercial nothing big or anything. It's kinda wierd that it sounds like recruiting on the video. Action, violence it's all a boy wants. Don't tell me that you don't like action because then you are a liar. But why do they want to recruit you to the Army.

BUT! The topic of the movie is about being a member of sociaty. Being in the army is definetly a part of that. You are serving your country.

The thing that I find weird is that the Army, Navy Force and The Air force are a sponsor for that movie. How the hell can they be a sponsor. They are being payed by the gouvernment. So actually the gouvernment should be a sponsor then hehe.

Just don't pay attention to the movie. Just watch the rest that isn't about the army. ;)

[Bert]

18 year old kids who are smart/controlable enough to graduate from highschool are a valuable commodity to a military organization. It behooves such organizations to plant certain thoughts and concepts in the right places and times.

As has been noted, most of the guys on this forum couldn't buy a pack of smokes or a beer legaly in the US- And are "prime meat" to a military recruiter.

You can bet your ass this happens elsewhere. And your ass is truly the currency involved.

[Silentnite]

Back in high school, every couple days we had a recruiter from one of the armed forces sitting up on the balcony of the cafeteria through all lunches. Giving away all sorts of things. For four straight years, it was a very, very common occurance. There was always a line of people waiting to be signed up to receive more infor*doctrination*.

Then was the hated Channel 1. Every morning, broadcast across the nation, about news for teens. It had a grown up feel to it, but I always felt like they were trying to brainwash us. They skipped the important issues, and glossed over anything relevant.

So yeah, it happens in Michigan too.

[megalomania]

You wonder why there is state indoctrination at a state indoctrination facility? I saw an even more insidious plot when I went to high school. Some organization gave the school district free televisions, and all they had to do in return was show a 20 minute news program once every day. The news turned out to be 15 minutes of commercials targeting a teen audience. Imagine, a captive audience of thousands exposed to a targeted advertisement specifically for their demographic each and every day. I resented these advertisements because they were loud and interfered with my nap time.

The whole concept of the state indoctrination facility is to get you, the impressionable young mind, thinking the way they want you too. If you want a real education you have to go to a private school, but that is something only the rich can afford. If you want to deprogram yourself you have to go to college where independent thinking is not only encouraged, it’s the norm.

EDIT: Looks like Silentnite just beat me too it... I was referring to Channel 1. Looks like I'm not the only one who saw through their ploy.

[nbk2000]

If you totally skip school, like I did for highschool, you don't have to worry about such tripe getting into your brain. :)

To paraphrase Mark Twain;

Don't let school interefere with your education.

;)

[knowledgehungry]

If you want to deprogram yourself you have to go to college where independent thinking is not only encouraged, it’s the norm.

College is just as indoctrinating as High School, you just get a better choice as to in what subjects you are indoctrinated. Army recruiters coming to high school isn't a big deal, I don't understand why anyone would bitch about it. The military IS a good option for certain people in certain situations. The indoctrination I hate is the "guns are bad" "violence is always bad" "tolerance is the most important virtue" "taxes are important and good" bullshit I get in school.

[cyclonite4]

Yeah i agree NBK, I have been considering it.

Basically, I've been wanting to do a degree in chemical engineering, my chemistry, physics and maths score are more than enough to qualify, however, because of my poorer skills in 'english' class, my chances of getting into university are incredibly slim. Seems that ones knowledge of science is not important in studying it at university.

Everyone has to pass 'english' (note the inverted commas :p ) to get into any decent university. Ironically, our 'english' classes have little to do with learning the language.

I also agree with Twain, so I'm not going to let my schooling interfere with true education.

[Silentnite]

My teacher*s always got mad when I quoted Twain like that. Apparently I was being -obnoxious- and -rebellious-. College is a bigger scam then high school. Your paying for your education, but you get no say in what classes you take. The classes you do take have crappy teachers who really dont care so long as they meet the status quo. Your forced to take the *core* classes in order to get your degree, even though over 70% of high school graduates can only read at an eigth grade reading level, if at all. My english class is teaching me how to defend hansel and gretel in a court case for killing the witch. How that pertains to my Computer Science course, I have yet to determine.

/rant.

[cyclonite4]

No need to determine.

Obviously it is completely irrelevant.
I was told that an engineer would rely on english skills to write reports, I of course replied that we write plenty of reports in our science classes. I was thinking, how does the 'values and attitudes' within a book, have anything to do with science, yet 'english' is a prerequisite for every course.

The only thing I wonder is why everyone has to study this 'english' subject? Especially when their chosen path of study is completely unrelated. I already know as much of the englsih language as I will ever need to.

[tom haggen]

I guess I grew up in a faulty generation. The Smoke free class of 2000 where anti drug propaganda was taught at an early age. Wouldn't you know it, by the time I graduated high school half my class was hooked on drugs, and a large majority of them smoked the most poisonous drug nicotine. My senior year the use of MDMA had reached epidemic proportions, something that hadn't really been seen since the cocaine epidemic of the 1970's. What a coincidence. What did I learn from all of this? Well I grew up a really free spirit, and was never bogged down by propaganda. But now that I'm sober and trying to get a high level education, it's looking like I will join the military more and more everyday. What the hell happened?

[akinrog]

I have nothing to say regarding the propaganda in high schools in US but I have some things to say regarding English or more properly "native and foreign" language education. You may tell hey WTF is it related to engineering but really it is. I am doing translations from my native language to English and vice versa. What I actually notice is engineers (both native and English speaking) are really poor in linguistic abilities. (Legal papers are generally well worded and I love them really.)

In one case, I really sweared and insulted a (native) university professor who was "by his genius" trying to write a single sentence feasibility report of 16 pages concerning a poultry facility project. My first remark regarding the man was that "f*ck" your education you idiot. If you are a professor then I am a nobel laurate". The text was really disaster (literally): I sweared the professor at the every clause of the that single sentence constituting the entire report of 16 pages. In many cases this is also valid for English speaking engineers (although not to the extent I referred to above). (You may not believe but I sometimes came across such horribly worded (English) technical papers. :mad: )

First of all you are an engineer and you have to express your design / concepts / techniques etc. in order to enable workers, foremen, technicians, licensees to perform and realize them properly. So if you express / write your ideas, design, concepts, techniques etc. in a crappy way without using correct terminology and wording, how do you expect (the workers, etc.) to realize it properly. As a practical example of this (relevant to E&W related stuff) is as follows:

Assume that you are synthesizing a really powerful explosive which can be very dangerous during synthesis. If you cannot describe the synthesis process properly, then somebody may get wounded or killed. Regards

[festergrump]

It's not only about "english" in college or high school in the USA... The focus is not about the proper spelling, sentence structure, and grammar. It is more of literature, history, and other such topics which assume you have a basic grasp on the language itself. SHIT, I say! Not neccesary for furthering your education in whatever field you choose to study unless it is related to such. But this is usually required by ALL, no matter what the course of study in the long run. I do see your point about peoples of other countries whose primary language is not english, though.

As an example of such "required" courses of study in the USA may I present a simple (seemingly) graded event in a sociology class a friend of mine is required to take before moving on to his chosen field requirements? Mind you, he's recently returned to school several years after having graduated high school and is now 33 years old. After reading the absolute bullshit provided in the link below he is required to present 5 reasons to agree with as well as 5 reasons to oppose said text. Another thing of note is that his "professor" happens to be a black woman... (go figure). BTW, why is sociology a required class in college?

http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html

I'm not very sorry to say that I would have not only failed this assignment, but also stood up and gave the prof a bit of my mind. My friend, on the other hand has more of a cool disposition than I and refused to complete the assignment, taking a zero for a grade on it, knowing his other scores would keep him from having to retake the class.

I challenge anyone to find 5 things to agree with in the above link, providing you also reside in the USA (from where this assignment is derived).

This is just one more instance of propaganda put forth in schools. Not government propaganda, but racial and gender propaganda provided by someone who you must appease to further your own progress in your supposed EDUCATION... :rolleyes:

[EDIT: Sorry for going OT, guys. All kinds of propaganda in schools, though, free or tuitioned.]

[Silentnite]

Festergrump is right. English in our systems(U.S.A) have little relevance or deal with anything pertaining to Grammer, proper spelling, and other basics that most people graduate without.

I believe there should be a way to take a test and be able to skip ahead. I read and write at(what they tell me) is post doctorate level. But I still have to take 5 english classes. I am allowed to test out after three weeks of the class, but by doing that, I am still required to pay for said class.

Thankfully the computer Dean is a reasonable guy and I talked him into letting me skip several classes due to my Certificates.

[akinrog]

Sorry My bad!
I made the same mistake and confused the terminology (though this is mainly due to fact that my country's educational system is different than yours, i.e. when you receive xxxxish lesson, it ostly covers not only the language itself but also grammar, spelling (which is not of the very much concern), synthax, and also classical, old and modern literature). I believe there are separate textbooks and courses for English, grammar, literature in US which is the main difference from mine.

As a technical-wise (not practically but theoretically) man, I generally used to scorn upon the literature (as for novels, stories and my most hated type poems) in past (I still do not read poems except for Illiad). However for a few years, I read English translations of classical novels (Balzac, Dostoyevsky, Zola, Tolstoy, etc.), which contributed very much to my profession and most importantly my perception of the world.

[Bert]

akinrog I think what they're bitching about is what would more properly be called "the humanities" (http://www.units.muohio.edu/technologyandhumanities/humanitiesdefinition.htm) - Which would include English, but is really mostly a vestigial nod to the good 'ol classical education, and the concept that in addition to ones technical field, an engineer or scientist should be conversant with western "classical" culture in general. American education and society being what they currently are, the little savages popping out of our high schools do tend to see little point in this. And if we end up running the world by military force, they may be right. But even the Romans kept tame Greeks around for their cultural pollish, and suggested using them as wet nurses and pedagogues so the children would "ingest refinement along with their nurse's milk". Maybe we'll keep tame "old Europeans " around for the same reasons. (Anyone I haven't pissed off with that rant, just let me know, I got more.)

Festergrump, What in SAM HELL was that crap about?! Some black faculty member somewhere is really shoving that whiny shit on students??? If she thinks that's gonna de-Bubba anyone, she's got another think coming...

[festergrump]

Bert, I was stunned and amazed myself. This was as assignment from only last week, too, so it's not as if I'm dredging up shit that might have gone on years ago when I might have been in school. I doubt she'll get over with this sort of teaching for long. Quite a shocker, though, no? I was floored.

[Hobbit Porn]

Festergump : although I'm not an american, so I don't fit your criteria, but you can find 5 reasons to agree with the article, unless the marking criteria stated that the 5 freason to agree with article had to agree with each other. it just depends on how you interpret it.

I'll state now that the following are not views I hold myself...rather ones put forward for the sake of argument

1. ( From a white-power type's view)Yes, Ignoring the obvious imposed guilt trip, I can agree with this article because it shows that white race is the superior race, as we could not have become so privileged without being stronger then the rest...

2. ( From a white-power type's view) Yes, Ignoring the obvious imposed guilt trip, I can agree with the article, because it shows that the only way black people can be equal with us is by bringing us down and cutting back our privileges, rather then working hard and earning them themselves....

3. (from the view of a hippie) Yes, I can agree with this article because it shows how much society is so unjust, and that it needs to be addressed if we are all to be equal...

4. ( from the view of an angry black man) Damn straight I agree with this article, it points out how all the white boys get an easy ride while the black man has to struggle to even get a job at MacDonalds...

5. (from the view of a white feminist who feels guilty about not being coloured) I agree with this article because it can show white people that they should feel guilty for being white....


Although, I don't know the criteria for the assignment, I don't know if sarcasm or satire would be allowed

[Silentnite]

Generally, (from my experiance anyways) If someone believes strongly enough in something, if you start agreeing with them, even sarcastically, they will turn a blind eye to your sarcasm because of course you agree with them as they are right. I have gotten away with ALOT in my classes exactly because my teachers take things too seriously.

[me234]

I'm afraid I agree with silentnite.
Sometimes you just have to swallow your pride and tell them they're right, no matter how you really think.
I would love to stand up and tell people what the fuck is really happening in the world today, but, alas, they wouldn't want to hear it. So instead I'm left leaving them ignorant.
The alternative would be to try anyway, but, if you let them know where you really stand, then they know to keep a close eye on you in particular.
Thus, we end up with silentnite's conclusion: Shut up to deceive them, then make a 'plan to kill everyone you meet'.

[nbk2000]

The pleasing lie is more believable than the unpleasant truth.

[knowledgehungry]

One of the colleges I was considering had African-American studies as a required course! I live in a fucking city why the fuck would I need to study blacks, it's not like I haven't seen enough of them in my life. The course might be amusing if we were required to watch the wild African-Americans in their native enviroment kinda like Jane Goodall with the chimps.

[megalomania]

I have been looking around campus and taking in all the negros I see. All in all I am quite pleased with there presence, and here is why. Today I walked through a building because it was raining. The janitor was mopping the floors and gave me a dirty look when I traipsed through. I was pleased because he was a negro janitor, a negro in his proper place at a university. Last week I stopped by the food court for a quick bite to eat. The fast food servant was a negro, in fact there were 4, all negros. Again, I was happy to see them behind the counter. As for black professors, well there is the black studies crowd, and one in philosophy. I am happy to see any intellectual negro in a field that has absolutely no use whatsoever. Last Wednesday I was walking around a corner and a negro maidservant was just finishing mopping up in the crapper. Another negro doing good.

It seems diversity is alive and well in our higher education system.

I read that sociology paper. Quite humorous. But let us not forget about black privilege!

1. If I do not wish to work I can count on a check from the government.
2. If I want food I can get food stamps.
3. I can get free medical care anytime I want.
4. I can count on being around my own kind and having it easy in prison.
5. I can count on there being plenty of cheap stolen merchandise in my community, so why worry about being followed or harassed when I go to the store (I'm stealing anyway).
6. I can turn on the television to a major sporting event or open to the police reports page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented
7. I can be pretty sure of whites being unable to understand my voice in a group in which I am the only member of my race because I have mush in my mouth.
8. I can go dancing and be confidant members of my race will have rhythm.
9. Whether I use welfare checks, food stamps or crack, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability because Uncle Sam pays all my bills.
10. I can do well in a challenging situation and be called a credit to my race because negros haven't done all that much.
11. I can walk down a dark ally in the poor section of town without getting raped, robbed, or murdered because of the color of my skin. (more often than not)
12. I always know where to get pot and crack
13. I can always be sure of getting gainful employment as a janitor or garbage man

[megalomania]

I have been looking around campus and taking in all the negros I see. All in all I am quite pleased with there presence, and here is why. Today I walked through a building because it was raining. The janitor was mopping the floors and gave me a dirty look when I traipsed through. I was pleased because he was a negro janitor, a negro in his proper place at a university. Last week I stopped by the food court for a quick bite to eat. The fast food servant was a negro, in fact there were 4, all negros. Again, I was happy to see them behind the counter. As for black professors, well there is the black studies crowd, and one in philosophy. I am happy to see any intellectual negro in a field that has absolutely no use whatsoever. Last Wednesday I was walking around a corner and a negro maidservant was just finishing mopping up in the crapper. Another negro doing good.

It seems diversity is alive and well in our higher education system.

I read that sociology paper. Quite humorous. But let us not forget about black privilege!

1. If I do not wish to work I can count on a check from the government.
2. If I want food I can get food stamps.
3. I can get free medical care anytime I want.
4. I can count on being around my own kind and having it easy in prison.
5. I can count on there being plenty of cheap stolen merchandise in my community, so why worry about being followed or harassed when I go to the store (I'm stealing anyway).
6. I can turn on the television to a major sporting event or open to the police reports page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented
7. I can be pretty sure of whites being unable to understand my voice in a group in which I am the only member of my race because I have mush in my mouth.
8. I can go dancing and be confidant members of my race will have rhythm.
9. Whether I use welfare checks, food stamps or crack, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability because Uncle Sam pays all my bills.
10. I can do well in a challenging situation and be called a credit to my race because negros haven't done all that much.
11. I can walk down a dark ally in the poor section of town without getting raped, robbed, or murdered because of the color of my skin. (more often than not)
12. I always know where to get pot and crack
13. I can always be sure of getting gainful employment as a janitor or garbage man

[megalomania]

I have been looking around campus and taking in all the negros I see. All in all I am quite pleased with there presence, and here is why. Today I walked through a building because it was raining. The janitor was mopping the floors and gave me a dirty look when I traipsed through. I was pleased because he was a negro janitor, a negro in his proper place at a university. Last week I stopped by the food court for a quick bite to eat. The fast food servant was a negro, in fact there were 4, all negros. Again, I was happy to see them behind the counter. As for black professors, well there is the black studies crowd, and one in philosophy. I am happy to see any intellectual negro in a field that has absolutely no use whatsoever. Last Wednesday I was walking around a corner and a negro maidservant was just finishing mopping up in the crapper. Another negro doing good.

It seems diversity is alive and well in our higher education system.

I read that sociology paper. Quite humorous. But let us not forget about black privilege!

1. If I do not wish to work I can count on a check from the government.
2. If I want food I can get food stamps.
3. I can get free medical care anytime I want.
4. I can count on being around my own kind and having it easy in prison.
5. I can count on there being plenty of cheap stolen merchandise in my community, so why worry about being followed or harassed when I go to the store (I'm stealing anyway).
6. I can turn on the television to a major sporting event or open to the police reports page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented
7. I can be pretty sure of whites being unable to understand my voice in a group in which I am the only member of my race because I have mush in my mouth.
8. I can go dancing and be confidant members of my race will have rhythm.
9. Whether I use welfare checks, food stamps or crack, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability because Uncle Sam pays all my bills.
10. I can do well in a challenging situation and be called a credit to my race because negros haven't done all that much.
11. I can walk down a dark ally in the poor section of town without getting raped, robbed, or murdered because of the color of my skin. (more often than not)
12. I always know where to get pot and crack
13. I can always be sure of getting gainful employment as a janitor or garbage man

[Silentnite]

Hey, I qualify for atleast a couple of those... I have yet to get raped or mugged down a dark alley, I know where to get illegal drugs, and um... wait. Just those. Around here the only people that can get welfare or disablity are negroes or white females. Regular white men have no chance getting anything from the state. So much for equality.

[Silentnite]

Hey, I qualify for atleast a couple of those... I have yet to get raped or mugged down a dark alley, I know where to get illegal drugs, and um... wait. Just those. Around here the only people that can get welfare or disablity are negroes or white females. Regular white men have no chance getting anything from the state. So much for equality.

[Silentnite]

Hey, I qualify for atleast a couple of those... I have yet to get raped or mugged down a dark alley, I know where to get illegal drugs, and um... wait. Just those. Around here the only people that can get welfare or disablity are negroes or white females. Regular white men have no chance getting anything from the state. So much for equality.

[cyclonite4]

Equality never has, never will exist.

Feminists imply they strive for equailty, yet they want everything they can get, but aren't willing to claim the responsilities that come with it.

Example, the fems claim that they are segregated from the work force, but once they are let in, they refuse to do work because they aren't 'inclined' to do man's work.

Thats a poor example, but I'm sure you get what I'm saying, there are a lot of better examples, but they aren't escaping my mind as of yet.

[cyclonite4]

Equality never has, never will exist.

Feminists imply they strive for equailty, yet they want everything they can get, but aren't willing to claim the responsilities that come with it.

Example, the fems claim that they are segregated from the work force, but once they are let in, they refuse to do work because they aren't 'inclined' to do man's work.

Thats a poor example, but I'm sure you get what I'm saying, there are a lot of better examples, but they aren't escaping my mind as of yet.

[cyclonite4]

Equality never has, never will exist.

Feminists imply they strive for equailty, yet they want everything they can get, but aren't willing to claim the responsilities that come with it.

Example, the fems claim that they are segregated from the work force, but once they are let in, they refuse to do work because they aren't 'inclined' to do man's work.

Thats a poor example, but I'm sure you get what I'm saying, there are a lot of better examples, but they aren't escaping my mind as of yet.

[Jacks Complete]

I got chewed out by a woman once. I made the mistake of holding the door, as I always do, for the person behind me, instead of letting it slam in her face. My mistake!

[Jacks Complete]

I got chewed out by a woman once. I made the mistake of holding the door, as I always do, for the person behind me, instead of letting it slam in her face. My mistake!

[Jacks Complete]

I got chewed out by a woman once. I made the mistake of holding the door, as I always do, for the person behind me, instead of letting it slam in her face. My mistake!

[FUTI]

In high-school during the French lesson professor ask a friend of mine about garding/watchin/taking care of the baby (whether he would do it)...being a red-blooded farmer he responded (to her amaisement) "If you became ready to go to serving the military, I will stay home garding the baby!" :D

Feminist are stupid idiots that twarth/misuse good idea. They didn't read Darwin obviously...everyone should find his place in the ecosystem/society, and that includes variety.

[FUTI]

In high-school during the French lesson professor ask a friend of mine about garding/watchin/taking care of the baby (whether he would do it)...being a red-blooded farmer he responded (to her amaisement) "If you became ready to go to serving the military, I will stay home garding the baby!" :D

Feminist are stupid idiots that twarth/misuse good idea. They didn't read Darwin obviously...everyone should find his place in the ecosystem/society, and that includes variety.

[FUTI]

In high-school during the French lesson professor ask a friend of mine about garding/watchin/taking care of the baby (whether he would do it)...being a red-blooded farmer he responded (to her amaisement) "If you became ready to go to serving the military, I will stay home garding the baby!" :D

Feminist are stupid idiots that twarth/misuse good idea. They didn't read Darwin obviously...everyone should find his place in the ecosystem/society, and that includes variety.

[megalomania]

While reading up on some instances to see if there really was any black privilege I came accross a sociological article that explained when someone says they want equality they really want privilege. Everyone wants to be better than the next guy, thats just human nature. Someone has to be the nigger, someone has to be the bitch, someone has to be the retard.

When socialists try to shove equality down our throats we get athletics where they don't keep score because everyone is a winner, and no grades because it makes the retards feel bad. This just reduces everyone to the lowest common denominator. Sure, it's great for the retards, but not for anyone with an ounce of ability.

[megalomania]

While reading up on some instances to see if there really was any black privilege I came accross a sociological article that explained when someone says they want equality they really want privilege. Everyone wants to be better than the next guy, thats just human nature. Someone has to be the nigger, someone has to be the bitch, someone has to be the retard.

When socialists try to shove equality down our throats we get athletics where they don't keep score because everyone is a winner, and no grades because it makes the retards feel bad. This just reduces everyone to the lowest common denominator. Sure, it's great for the retards, but not for anyone with an ounce of ability.

[megalomania]

While reading up on some instances to see if there really was any black privilege I came accross a sociological article that explained when someone says they want equality they really want privilege. Everyone wants to be better than the next guy, thats just human nature. Someone has to be the nigger, someone has to be the bitch, someone has to be the retard.

When socialists try to shove equality down our throats we get athletics where they don't keep score because everyone is a winner, and no grades because it makes the retards feel bad. This just reduces everyone to the lowest common denominator. Sure, it's great for the retards, but not for anyone with an ounce of ability.

[Silentnite]

Is that where the idea for the bell curve came up? I was hated in class, and often bribed to do poorly on tests, just so the teacher would implement the bell curve. I normally scored above 100% as the teacher offered extra credit, thereby throwing the curve out of wack. Except for those exceptionally crappy teachers who threw my grade out and effectively giving everyone but me 10 points extra credit. I asked why I did not receive it, and was told I did not need it. I told him then I dont need any more homework for the rest of the year either right?

Needless to say, I did recieve homework and this scenario was oft repeated.

Equality sucks. As it doesnt exist, and only brings down the deserving in order to loft the lazy higher.

As a result I started blowing off my classes and doing poorly. I still dont like the bell curve, because its let me get away with more than I should be able to. It takes no effort to pass, and I have to try really hard to fail.

Thanks to so called equality I can: not learn anything from the class, pass with a C average, and still be considered a contributing sheeple, and more than likely a model sheeple given our schooling system.

[Silentnite]

Is that where the idea for the bell curve came up? I was hated in class, and often bribed to do poorly on tests, just so the teacher would implement the bell curve. I normally scored above 100% as the teacher offered extra credit, thereby throwing the curve out of wack. Except for those exceptionally crappy teachers who threw my grade out and effectively giving everyone but me 10 points extra credit. I asked why I did not receive it, and was told I did not need it. I told him then I dont need any more homework for the rest of the year either right?

Needless to say, I did recieve homework and this scenario was oft repeated.

Equality sucks. As it doesnt exist, and only brings down the deserving in order to loft the lazy higher.

As a result I started blowing off my classes and doing poorly. I still dont like the bell curve, because its let me get away with more than I should be able to. It takes no effort to pass, and I have to try really hard to fail.

Thanks to so called equality I can: not learn anything from the class, pass with a C average, and still be considered a contributing sheeple, and more than likely a model sheeple given our schooling system.

[Silentnite]

Is that where the idea for the bell curve came up? I was hated in class, and often bribed to do poorly on tests, just so the teacher would implement the bell curve. I normally scored above 100% as the teacher offered extra credit, thereby throwing the curve out of wack. Except for those exceptionally crappy teachers who threw my grade out and effectively giving everyone but me 10 points extra credit. I asked why I did not receive it, and was told I did not need it. I told him then I dont need any more homework for the rest of the year either right?

Needless to say, I did recieve homework and this scenario was oft repeated.

Equality sucks. As it doesnt exist, and only brings down the deserving in order to loft the lazy higher.

As a result I started blowing off my classes and doing poorly. I still dont like the bell curve, because its let me get away with more than I should be able to. It takes no effort to pass, and I have to try really hard to fail.

Thanks to so called equality I can: not learn anything from the class, pass with a C average, and still be considered a contributing sheeple, and more than likely a model sheeple given our schooling system.

[Jacks Complete]

The bell curve is a good mathmatical model for most things that have a normal distribution.

Human intelligence isn't really one of those things. The score you can get on any test is, however.

The problem is, unless you make the test very, very long, you always have issues with the top and bottom of the curve. Imagine someone who knew not what numbers were. Your maths test would show them as a zero, which isn't manageable by the curves. However, the same score could be done by someone really bad at maths, who just got the numbers wrong. They are infinitely more capable, but there we go. So you would have to have very easy questions to differentiate between those levels of ability.

The same thing happens at the top end. You need a range of more, harder, questions, to tell who is genius, and who is very genius.

Of course, these increase the length of the entire test for everyone, and, the curves just don't work too well at the extremes anyway.

IQ tests are always good. Several of the on-line ones tell me I am at the 144 level or higher, but then you read around the test, and find that, even if you score 100%, you cannot get higher than 138 to 144. Further, getting one additional question right or wrong throws the result up or down by up to 4 IQ points!

So, you get 39 right and you are 140, get 40 right you are 144. Except you obviously aren't, since you need to take a harder test! You might be at 160, but you maxed it out.

Another result of the bell curves is a thing to do with the area under the curve, in the form of percentiles. If you are the 50%ile, you are average. If you are 20%ile, you are further to the right (or left), such that only 20% of that area under the curve is to the right. 5%ile is the same. But due to the shape of the curve, you have to be incredibly smart to get to the 5% mark, since that is 3 standard deviations away. (It all gets very sophisticated!)

Basically, if the bell curve was the model for human intelligence, for every dumb as a stick guy, there would be one who was as smart, the other side of the average. The vast majority of people should be very close to the average, too. This means that one in ten million people should be so smart, they are a genius' genius. And so on.

That this isn't true (in so far as we know) shows that the bell curve is out of touch with reality.

And so am I... Damn it's late!

[Jacks Complete]

The bell curve is a good mathmatical model for most things that have a normal distribution.

Human intelligence isn't really one of those things. The score you can get on any test is, however.

The problem is, unless you make the test very, very long, you always have issues with the top and bottom of the curve. Imagine someone who knew not what numbers were. Your maths test would show them as a zero, which isn't manageable by the curves. However, the same score could be done by someone really bad at maths, who just got the numbers wrong. They are infinitely more capable, but there we go. So you would have to have very easy questions to differentiate between those levels of ability.

The same thing happens at the top end. You need a range of more, harder, questions, to tell who is genius, and who is very genius.

Of course, these increase the length of the entire test for everyone, and, the curves just don't work too well at the extremes anyway.

IQ tests are always good. Several of the on-line ones tell me I am at the 144 level or higher, but then you read around the test, and find that, even if you score 100%, you cannot get higher than 138 to 144. Further, getting one additional question right or wrong throws the result up or down by up to 4 IQ points!

So, you get 39 right and you are 140, get 40 right you are 144. Except you obviously aren't, since you need to take a harder test! You might be at 160, but you maxed it out.

Another result of the bell curves is a thing to do with the area under the curve, in the form of percentiles. If you are the 50%ile, you are average. If you are 20%ile, you are further to the right (or left), such that only 20% of that area under the curve is to the right. 5%ile is the same. But due to the shape of the curve, you have to be incredibly smart to get to the 5% mark, since that is 3 standard deviations away. (It all gets very sophisticated!)

Basically, if the bell curve was the model for human intelligence, for every dumb as a stick guy, there would be one who was as smart, the other side of the average. The vast majority of people should be very close to the average, too. This means that one in ten million people should be so smart, they are a genius' genius. And so on.

That this isn't true (in so far as we know) shows that the bell curve is out of touch with reality.

And so am I... Damn it's late!

[Jacks Complete]

The bell curve is a good mathmatical model for most things that have a normal distribution.

Human intelligence isn't really one of those things. The score you can get on any test is, however.

The problem is, unless you make the test very, very long, you always have issues with the top and bottom of the curve. Imagine someone who knew not what numbers were. Your maths test would show them as a zero, which isn't manageable by the curves. However, the same score could be done by someone really bad at maths, who just got the numbers wrong. They are infinitely more capable, but there we go. So you would have to have very easy questions to differentiate between those levels of ability.

The same thing happens at the top end. You need a range of more, harder, questions, to tell who is genius, and who is very genius.

Of course, these increase the length of the entire test for everyone, and, the curves just don't work too well at the extremes anyway.

IQ tests are always good. Several of the on-line ones tell me I am at the 144 level or higher, but then you read around the test, and find that, even if you score 100%, you cannot get higher than 138 to 144. Further, getting one additional question right or wrong throws the result up or down by up to 4 IQ points!

So, you get 39 right and you are 140, get 40 right you are 144. Except you obviously aren't, since you need to take a harder test! You might be at 160, but you maxed it out.

Another result of the bell curves is a thing to do with the area under the curve, in the form of percentiles. If you are the 50%ile, you are average. If you are 20%ile, you are further to the right (or left), such that only 20% of that area under the curve is to the right. 5%ile is the same. But due to the shape of the curve, you have to be incredibly smart to get to the 5% mark, since that is 3 standard deviations away. (It all gets very sophisticated!)

Basically, if the bell curve was the model for human intelligence, for every dumb as a stick guy, there would be one who was as smart, the other side of the average. The vast majority of people should be very close to the average, too. This means that one in ten million people should be so smart, they are a genius' genius. And so on.

That this isn't true (in so far as we know) shows that the bell curve is out of touch with reality.

And so am I... Damn it's late!

[Silentnite]

I understand the idea of the bell curve. And truly, it is a wonderfully precise mathematical genius type thing.

It is just that I personally have never-repeat NEVER- been in a class where it was successfully applied. You either have 90% of the class scoring under 60%, with a handful of B*s, while everyone else scores above 100%. Or, the other way around, with 90% smarties and 10% wondering how they drop the class :D

The latter of that is rare. In my experiance, the classes I take, or maybe just my locale, have the student population in desperate want of some proverbial chlorine in the genetic gene pool.

I guess in the end, it is just one of my personal pet peeves. That I truly want an education but have to go somewhere besides school to get it. Time for the obligatory Mark Twains quote: Never let school interfere with your education.

[Silentnite]

I understand the idea of the bell curve. And truly, it is a wonderfully precise mathematical genius type thing.

It is just that I personally have never-repeat NEVER- been in a class where it was successfully applied. You either have 90% of the class scoring under 60%, with a handful of B*s, while everyone else scores above 100%. Or, the other way around, with 90% smarties and 10% wondering how they drop the class :D

The latter of that is rare. In my experiance, the classes I take, or maybe just my locale, have the student population in desperate want of some proverbial chlorine in the genetic gene pool.

I guess in the end, it is just one of my personal pet peeves. That I truly want an education but have to go somewhere besides school to get it. Time for the obligatory Mark Twains quote: Never let school interfere with your education.

[Silentnite]

I understand the idea of the bell curve. And truly, it is a wonderfully precise mathematical genius type thing.

It is just that I personally have never-repeat NEVER- been in a class where it was successfully applied. You either have 90% of the class scoring under 60%, with a handful of B*s, while everyone else scores above 100%. Or, the other way around, with 90% smarties and 10% wondering how they drop the class :D

The latter of that is rare. In my experiance, the classes I take, or maybe just my locale, have the student population in desperate want of some proverbial chlorine in the genetic gene pool.

I guess in the end, it is just one of my personal pet peeves. That I truly want an education but have to go somewhere besides school to get it. Time for the obligatory Mark Twains quote: Never let school interfere with your education.

[Silentnite]

I hate to bring this topic up again, but I just got a piece of interesting information.

My niece, who is in kindergarten, Came home with a few folders and such from the navy. I asked my sister what the hell was going on and she said that they had a bring your parent in to talk about his/her job day. The guy was some major or something and brought *Toys and Presents* for everyone in the class. Simple and pure bullshit. They talk about how credit card companys are trying to reach kids at an early age in order to insure brand loyalty.

Looks like the Gov is doing it too. Only nobody complains about them doing it.

[Silentnite]

I hate to bring this topic up again, but I just got a piece of interesting information.

My niece, who is in kindergarten, Came home with a few folders and such from the navy. I asked my sister what the hell was going on and she said that they had a bring your parent in to talk about his/her job day. The guy was some major or something and brought *Toys and Presents* for everyone in the class. Simple and pure bullshit. They talk about how credit card companys are trying to reach kids at an early age in order to insure brand loyalty.

Looks like the Gov is doing it too. Only nobody complains about them doing it.

[Silentnite]

I hate to bring this topic up again, but I just got a piece of interesting information.

My niece, who is in kindergarten, Came home with a few folders and such from the navy. I asked my sister what the hell was going on and she said that they had a bring your parent in to talk about his/her job day. The guy was some major or something and brought *Toys and Presents* for everyone in the class. Simple and pure bullshit. They talk about how credit card companys are trying to reach kids at an early age in order to insure brand loyalty.

Looks like the Gov is doing it too. Only nobody complains about them doing it.

[Jacks Complete]

Silentnite,
yes, this is the problem with one-size-fits-all "comprhensive" education.

In the UK there used to be a two tier system that split at age 11. If you were academic, and passed the 11+, you could go to Grammar School, and learn maths, English lit., history, etc. If you failed, you went to a technical or secondary modern school. Technical schools taught trades, so those who were crap at maths and english learnt how to measure up and drive nails, and the secondary modern was a lower ability area than the grammar. Only grammar school people tended to go on to University, with further education for trade and secondary tending to be at Polytechnics, which taught you how to be a plumber or a sparky.

Admission to each was to be determined by examination at eleven plus. Of course, you didn't really "pass" or "fail" but it was set up to look like that, and the elitist hating elite did for it in England long ago. Scotland has just ditched it, but looking at how our UK school system is failing to get people who can read or write out of a, what, ten year full-time process means I think it a retrograde step...

The idea was, then, that almost everyone was/is good at something, generally something that interests them, and so you find that thing, put them with a load of others like them, and teach to that level, in that area.

Someone who wanted to be a train driver would be quite happy with a secondary modern and a few GCEs, someone who wanted to be an engineer could go via a trade school and poly, or via grammar and Uni., lawyers would go via grammar to law school, and it was a much, much better system.

Now we have the future lawyers and nuclear physicists sitting in the same room as the person who wants to be a brickie, and everyone else, all doing the same level of maths! No wonder 50% are pissed off. The top 25% find it too easy, and get bored (as I did) and the bottom 25% are pissed off because the class moves too fast and the questions are really hard!

Far from ideal.

[Jacks Complete]

Silentnite,
yes, this is the problem with one-size-fits-all "comprhensive" education.

In the UK there used to be a two tier system that split at age 11. If you were academic, and passed the 11+, you could go to Grammar School, and learn maths, English lit., history, etc. If you failed, you went to a technical or secondary modern school. Technical schools taught trades, so those who were crap at maths and english learnt how to measure up and drive nails, and the secondary modern was a lower ability area than the grammar. Only grammar school people tended to go on to University, with further education for trade and secondary tending to be at Polytechnics, which taught you how to be a plumber or a sparky.

Admission to each was to be determined by examination at eleven plus. Of course, you didn't really "pass" or "fail" but it was set up to look like that, and the elitist hating elite did for it in England long ago. Scotland has just ditched it, but looking at how our UK school system is failing to get people who can read or write out of a, what, ten year full-time process means I think it a retrograde step...

The idea was, then, that almost everyone was/is good at something, generally something that interests them, and so you find that thing, put them with a load of others like them, and teach to that level, in that area.

Someone who wanted to be a train driver would be quite happy with a secondary modern and a few GCEs, someone who wanted to be an engineer could go via a trade school and poly, or via grammar and Uni., lawyers would go via grammar to law school, and it was a much, much better system.

Now we have the future lawyers and nuclear physicists sitting in the same room as the person who wants to be a brickie, and everyone else, all doing the same level of maths! No wonder 50% are pissed off. The top 25% find it too easy, and get bored (as I did) and the bottom 25% are pissed off because the class moves too fast and the questions are really hard!

Far from ideal.

[Jacks Complete]

Silentnite,
yes, this is the problem with one-size-fits-all "comprhensive" education.

In the UK there used to be a two tier system that split at age 11. If you were academic, and passed the 11+, you could go to Grammar School, and learn maths, English lit., history, etc. If you failed, you went to a technical or secondary modern school. Technical schools taught trades, so those who were crap at maths and english learnt how to measure up and drive nails, and the secondary modern was a lower ability area than the grammar. Only grammar school people tended to go on to University, with further education for trade and secondary tending to be at Polytechnics, which taught you how to be a plumber or a sparky.

Admission to each was to be determined by examination at eleven plus. Of course, you didn't really "pass" or "fail" but it was set up to look like that, and the elitist hating elite did for it in England long ago. Scotland has just ditched it, but looking at how our UK school system is failing to get people who can read or write out of a, what, ten year full-time process means I think it a retrograde step...

The idea was, then, that almost everyone was/is good at something, generally something that interests them, and so you find that thing, put them with a load of others like them, and teach to that level, in that area.

Someone who wanted to be a train driver would be quite happy with a secondary modern and a few GCEs, someone who wanted to be an engineer could go via a trade school and poly, or via grammar and Uni., lawyers would go via grammar to law school, and it was a much, much better system.

Now we have the future lawyers and nuclear physicists sitting in the same room as the person who wants to be a brickie, and everyone else, all doing the same level of maths! No wonder 50% are pissed off. The top 25% find it too easy, and get bored (as I did) and the bottom 25% are pissed off because the class moves too fast and the questions are really hard!

Far from ideal.