megalomania
February 28th, 2003, 01:55 PM
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 03, 2001 06:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I mixed some ap with petroleum jelly about 15% AP by weight. It seems to burn like other fuels I've made. I plan on testing it, but I wonder if anyone thinks that this mixture will detonate when subjected to the confinement of a motor casing and nozzle.
Foodos
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Posts: 210
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 03, 2001 07:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I call that a bomb, and it would be. AP is a high explosive, not a low order explosive suitable for rocket motors.
Foodos
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Posts: 210
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 03, 2001 07:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I call that a bomb, AP is a high explosive, not a low order explosive suitable for a rocket propelant (spl). The reason it burned is because it wasnt confined, if you search for some AP threads you will see it burns sometimes unconfined, and almost always explodes confined.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 03, 2001 09:07 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
oh wow, i would not try and cast the AP jelly mix. you could get a few crystals situated next to each other and they would easily detonate. that mix is to unstable for me. i would not bother with it. if you do decide to though, set it off from like 20+ feet away and make sure the rocket case is made from cardboard, not PVC or metal or something.
------------------
...Æ
radar
Frequent Poster
Posts: 64
From: Redding California
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 03, 2001 10:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A pipe bomb under the guise of a rocket hhehehe.
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 03, 2001 11:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was thinking being in a low concentration mixed with a filler perhaps it could work.
I did think about having clumps, so the AP would have to have quite the small particle size. What I can't think of is a good way to thoroughly suspend and disperse AP in vasline. Would anyone happen to know how AP reacts to a shear when suspended? I think fumed silica (aka cab-o-sil) might be a helpful additive in improving flow and and the matrix of the suspension. It works with pigments and mineral filler in epoxy resins anyways.
AN is used in composite rocket fuels at high temps and pressures, I'm just wondering. Worth a try anyways.
the freshmaker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 171
From: Heaven
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 04, 2001 09:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if you wanna make rocket use a rocket-propellant - NOT a high explosive dammit!
------------------
You can't survive the life!
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 04, 2001 01:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with eveyone here, this is not a safe idea. But you could dissolve the vasiline in some white gas to get a uniform mixture.
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 215
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 04, 2001 01:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AN works great in rocket comp.'s because it's an ideal oxidizer,but as an explosive it's rather sleepy;AP,however,is desperate to explode!.It would be great if you can find some way to stabilize it and make a suitable fuel;I'm all for experimenting;just do it from good and far away!.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 04, 2001 01:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you could make a sorta impulse jet outa AP and something like pressed BP. doing this in layers would provide a wuick thrust and then a controled burn, quick thrust, controledd burn...etc but this could be very dangerous. even if you use a thin layer of AP and a think layer of BP any crack would make the think explode. didn't the military have some hairbrained idea about sending a rocket into space by using a nuke explosiont propell it? this is sorta what i am getting at but the explosion of AP, of course, wouldn't come close.
------------------
...Æ
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 04, 2001 01:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They sure did! I remember seeing soemthing about it on TV, I think it included footage of a launch, although they probably used HE charges instead of nukes!
I don't see why everyone is jumping on theReal, so what if it won't work? It's still a good exercise in doing it and finding stuff out along the way. Hell, it might just work!
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 04, 2001 04:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I had this dream...
I mixed 20g of AP, 10g of Fumed Silica, with 70g of Petroleum Jelly and mixed under high shear. In this dream I had a nice VariAC controlling the mixer and a 20ft extentsion chord. Luckily nothing happened.
In testing, a very lucrative dream it was, 1g was burned in the open, just a nice flare up. 2g and 10g was then tried, always the same result, but as mass increased so did the burn time.
Next I dreamt I put some in piece of 3/16" tubing open at both ends, inserted a piece of red visco and flames shout out the lit end at first but pushed some material out the other end as well. No bang. Next I dreamt I crimped one end. I weighed out 15g and got all that I could in the piece I had cut, not very big. It flared up and moved a little, not useable yet. I made another one with 20g, crimped one end completely and the other about 3/4 the way from being closed. It moved about 10ft and went "pop". Being just a pop and not a crack I think the deflagration built up too much pressure and ruptured the casing. It didn't sound like any AP detonation I've ever produced. So it may still work, I just need something heavier. I kept thinks small just in case I got a cato, which I did.
The explosives propelled rocket experiment was called the Polaris Project and it worked. Though never tested with nukes, models were tested with 1/4lb charges of TNT. The rocket looked like a cone with a parobolic shaped bottom with a hole in the center. Every so often a charge would fall from the hole and go off about 1ft from the bottom of the rocket. If I remember correclty only 200ft altitudes were ever reached before the project was cancelled. A private company however did do some more work with that method of propulsion. Instead of using explosives, three lasers were focused onto a piece of ceramic suspended by wire below the rocket, it would heat up so fast that air would combust. Thus creating a small explosion that would propel the rocket. It need many more small boosts however, about 3/second, power supplies were just to heavy for that method.
NASA originally came up with the idea. It's cheaper to build and detonate a nuke than it is to lauch a shuttle plus we were getting rid of them at the time. It would be feasible save the whole radiation deal.
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 194
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 05, 2001 08:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the idea was to use the nuclear propulsion in space where the fallout wouldn't be much of a problem.
As for the AP petroleum jelly idea, I can imagine some problems:
The mix is similar to a heavily unbalanced plastique, so I'm pretty sure it won't make the deflagration/detonation transition by itself, but if you had a cato the low order explosion could be enough to initiate the remaining fuel. I don't think the risk is that great though.
What is your impression of the power of this composite as a propellant?
I would think that the specific impulse would be rather low.
PS. resist the temptation to increase the AP percentage, as this would make it overly sensitive.
BTW, AP is heavily oxygen deficient so you probably get quite unpleasant combustion products.
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 05, 2001 01:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the project was called orion. Yes it was tested with HE I think C-4, the full sized craft would have looked like a giant bullet. It would have been massive, they were going to have everything on it, an example is 3000lb barber chairs. It never happened because launching it would have used mutliple nukes and been terrible for the environment. There might have been a less ambitisous (sp) project more recently.
vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 05, 2001 03:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AP is dangerous enough as it is as an HE, why even bother trying this? Accidents are not fun.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 05, 2001 06:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3000lb barber chairs?! What the hell do you need those for on a space rocket?
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 05, 2001 07:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont know but high accelleration has an effect on humans that happens to shatter your bones leaving you a quivering mass of jello !
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 05, 2001 08:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps it was Orion, I know it was the name of some heavenly body.
I don't think increasing the AP would do anygood I want to try a heavier walled motor casing.
Ctrl_C
Frequent Poster
Posts: 230
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted February 12, 2001 09:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
riding a nuclear blast shockwave?!?!
that would be like 100's of g's
can you say liquification?
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 12, 2001 10:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After a few more attempts I gave up on the idea. To harness the useable force creates enough confinement that it goes "boom" 4/5 tries. What I learn? I can't say I really learned anything except that I couldn't the idea to work. Oh well, booms are always fun, so long no unintended targets are blasted.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1103
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 13, 2001 04:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The nuclear rocket is explained by the guy who came up with the idea in a book called "The Curve of Binding Energy".
This is a kick ass book about nuclear weapons and the science behind it, terrorist uses, easy sources of the fissile material (no longer since this was in the 70's and this book caused a huge scandal back then), and all the crazy shit they were planning to do with nukes.
It'll probably be near impossible to find this book in a library, though it is available for sale at <a href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
The great thing about the nuke rocket was that instead of having to build superlight and rickety spaceships, you could build massive ships like spaceborn aircraft carriers. No piddly sponge baths, actual showers. No sleeping attached to a wall, you could have an actual room of your own.
Of course, this all required a total of several HUNDRED nukes to be exploded at a rate of like 5 (maybe more) per second, each one larger than hiroshima. The launch pads could be based in africa. Help the poor starving AIDS infected niggers into the space age. Hell, you could even bring a few with you (as fallout! HAHAHA!)
If you've ever seen the apollo moon rockets launch and thought that was awesome, just imagine one of these babies launching. A blinding column of pulsing light stretching towards the sky and the whole earth shaking, the clouds parting like a finger from God poked the sky.
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Go here to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Ctrl_C
Frequent Poster
Posts: 230
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted February 13, 2001 07:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
um...even though you've abandoned the attempt...it wouldnt have worked anyway. the reason rocket engines work the way they do is becuase they produce rapidly expanding gases that are forced out of the nozzle at high velocity, providing thrust. AP is very oxygen deficient and doesnt produce very much (any?) gas. it probably consumes more than it produces.
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 13, 2001 08:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its an explosive, it produces gas.
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 15, 2001 12:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When mixed with vaseline in low percentages the vaseline burns as well lotsa soot and gases given off very rapidly. I still don't think I was getting detonation, just deflagration and the motor catoed. I just gave up cause I'm too lazy to pursue it. Other and safer motors and motor designs exist.
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 03, 2001 06:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I mixed some ap with petroleum jelly about 15% AP by weight. It seems to burn like other fuels I've made. I plan on testing it, but I wonder if anyone thinks that this mixture will detonate when subjected to the confinement of a motor casing and nozzle.
Foodos
Frequent Poster
Posts: 210
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 03, 2001 07:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I call that a bomb, and it would be. AP is a high explosive, not a low order explosive suitable for rocket motors.
Foodos
Frequent Poster
Posts: 210
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 03, 2001 07:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I call that a bomb, AP is a high explosive, not a low order explosive suitable for a rocket propelant (spl). The reason it burned is because it wasnt confined, if you search for some AP threads you will see it burns sometimes unconfined, and almost always explodes confined.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 03, 2001 09:07 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
oh wow, i would not try and cast the AP jelly mix. you could get a few crystals situated next to each other and they would easily detonate. that mix is to unstable for me. i would not bother with it. if you do decide to though, set it off from like 20+ feet away and make sure the rocket case is made from cardboard, not PVC or metal or something.
------------------
...Æ
radar
Frequent Poster
Posts: 64
From: Redding California
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 03, 2001 10:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A pipe bomb under the guise of a rocket hhehehe.
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 03, 2001 11:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was thinking being in a low concentration mixed with a filler perhaps it could work.
I did think about having clumps, so the AP would have to have quite the small particle size. What I can't think of is a good way to thoroughly suspend and disperse AP in vasline. Would anyone happen to know how AP reacts to a shear when suspended? I think fumed silica (aka cab-o-sil) might be a helpful additive in improving flow and and the matrix of the suspension. It works with pigments and mineral filler in epoxy resins anyways.
AN is used in composite rocket fuels at high temps and pressures, I'm just wondering. Worth a try anyways.
the freshmaker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 171
From: Heaven
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 04, 2001 09:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if you wanna make rocket use a rocket-propellant - NOT a high explosive dammit!
------------------
You can't survive the life!
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 04, 2001 01:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with eveyone here, this is not a safe idea. But you could dissolve the vasiline in some white gas to get a uniform mixture.
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 215
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 04, 2001 01:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AN works great in rocket comp.'s because it's an ideal oxidizer,but as an explosive it's rather sleepy;AP,however,is desperate to explode!.It would be great if you can find some way to stabilize it and make a suitable fuel;I'm all for experimenting;just do it from good and far away!.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 04, 2001 01:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you could make a sorta impulse jet outa AP and something like pressed BP. doing this in layers would provide a wuick thrust and then a controled burn, quick thrust, controledd burn...etc but this could be very dangerous. even if you use a thin layer of AP and a think layer of BP any crack would make the think explode. didn't the military have some hairbrained idea about sending a rocket into space by using a nuke explosiont propell it? this is sorta what i am getting at but the explosion of AP, of course, wouldn't come close.
------------------
...Æ
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 04, 2001 01:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They sure did! I remember seeing soemthing about it on TV, I think it included footage of a launch, although they probably used HE charges instead of nukes!
I don't see why everyone is jumping on theReal, so what if it won't work? It's still a good exercise in doing it and finding stuff out along the way. Hell, it might just work!
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 04, 2001 04:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I had this dream...
I mixed 20g of AP, 10g of Fumed Silica, with 70g of Petroleum Jelly and mixed under high shear. In this dream I had a nice VariAC controlling the mixer and a 20ft extentsion chord. Luckily nothing happened.
In testing, a very lucrative dream it was, 1g was burned in the open, just a nice flare up. 2g and 10g was then tried, always the same result, but as mass increased so did the burn time.
Next I dreamt I put some in piece of 3/16" tubing open at both ends, inserted a piece of red visco and flames shout out the lit end at first but pushed some material out the other end as well. No bang. Next I dreamt I crimped one end. I weighed out 15g and got all that I could in the piece I had cut, not very big. It flared up and moved a little, not useable yet. I made another one with 20g, crimped one end completely and the other about 3/4 the way from being closed. It moved about 10ft and went "pop". Being just a pop and not a crack I think the deflagration built up too much pressure and ruptured the casing. It didn't sound like any AP detonation I've ever produced. So it may still work, I just need something heavier. I kept thinks small just in case I got a cato, which I did.
The explosives propelled rocket experiment was called the Polaris Project and it worked. Though never tested with nukes, models were tested with 1/4lb charges of TNT. The rocket looked like a cone with a parobolic shaped bottom with a hole in the center. Every so often a charge would fall from the hole and go off about 1ft from the bottom of the rocket. If I remember correclty only 200ft altitudes were ever reached before the project was cancelled. A private company however did do some more work with that method of propulsion. Instead of using explosives, three lasers were focused onto a piece of ceramic suspended by wire below the rocket, it would heat up so fast that air would combust. Thus creating a small explosion that would propel the rocket. It need many more small boosts however, about 3/second, power supplies were just to heavy for that method.
NASA originally came up with the idea. It's cheaper to build and detonate a nuke than it is to lauch a shuttle plus we were getting rid of them at the time. It would be feasible save the whole radiation deal.
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 194
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 05, 2001 08:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the idea was to use the nuclear propulsion in space where the fallout wouldn't be much of a problem.
As for the AP petroleum jelly idea, I can imagine some problems:
The mix is similar to a heavily unbalanced plastique, so I'm pretty sure it won't make the deflagration/detonation transition by itself, but if you had a cato the low order explosion could be enough to initiate the remaining fuel. I don't think the risk is that great though.
What is your impression of the power of this composite as a propellant?
I would think that the specific impulse would be rather low.
PS. resist the temptation to increase the AP percentage, as this would make it overly sensitive.
BTW, AP is heavily oxygen deficient so you probably get quite unpleasant combustion products.
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 05, 2001 01:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the project was called orion. Yes it was tested with HE I think C-4, the full sized craft would have looked like a giant bullet. It would have been massive, they were going to have everything on it, an example is 3000lb barber chairs. It never happened because launching it would have used mutliple nukes and been terrible for the environment. There might have been a less ambitisous (sp) project more recently.
vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 05, 2001 03:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AP is dangerous enough as it is as an HE, why even bother trying this? Accidents are not fun.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 05, 2001 06:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3000lb barber chairs?! What the hell do you need those for on a space rocket?
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 05, 2001 07:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont know but high accelleration has an effect on humans that happens to shatter your bones leaving you a quivering mass of jello !
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 05, 2001 08:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps it was Orion, I know it was the name of some heavenly body.
I don't think increasing the AP would do anygood I want to try a heavier walled motor casing.
Ctrl_C
Frequent Poster
Posts: 230
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted February 12, 2001 09:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
riding a nuclear blast shockwave?!?!
that would be like 100's of g's
can you say liquification?
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 12, 2001 10:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After a few more attempts I gave up on the idea. To harness the useable force creates enough confinement that it goes "boom" 4/5 tries. What I learn? I can't say I really learned anything except that I couldn't the idea to work. Oh well, booms are always fun, so long no unintended targets are blasted.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1103
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 13, 2001 04:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The nuclear rocket is explained by the guy who came up with the idea in a book called "The Curve of Binding Energy".
This is a kick ass book about nuclear weapons and the science behind it, terrorist uses, easy sources of the fissile material (no longer since this was in the 70's and this book caused a huge scandal back then), and all the crazy shit they were planning to do with nukes.
It'll probably be near impossible to find this book in a library, though it is available for sale at <a href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
The great thing about the nuke rocket was that instead of having to build superlight and rickety spaceships, you could build massive ships like spaceborn aircraft carriers. No piddly sponge baths, actual showers. No sleeping attached to a wall, you could have an actual room of your own.
Of course, this all required a total of several HUNDRED nukes to be exploded at a rate of like 5 (maybe more) per second, each one larger than hiroshima. The launch pads could be based in africa. Help the poor starving AIDS infected niggers into the space age. Hell, you could even bring a few with you (as fallout! HAHAHA!)
If you've ever seen the apollo moon rockets launch and thought that was awesome, just imagine one of these babies launching. A blinding column of pulsing light stretching towards the sky and the whole earth shaking, the clouds parting like a finger from God poked the sky.
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Go here to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Ctrl_C
Frequent Poster
Posts: 230
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted February 13, 2001 07:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
um...even though you've abandoned the attempt...it wouldnt have worked anyway. the reason rocket engines work the way they do is becuase they produce rapidly expanding gases that are forced out of the nozzle at high velocity, providing thrust. AP is very oxygen deficient and doesnt produce very much (any?) gas. it probably consumes more than it produces.
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 13, 2001 08:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its an explosive, it produces gas.
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 15, 2001 12:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When mixed with vaseline in low percentages the vaseline burns as well lotsa soot and gases given off very rapidly. I still don't think I was getting detonation, just deflagration and the motor catoed. I just gave up cause I'm too lazy to pursue it. Other and safer motors and motor designs exist.