Cast acetone peroxide

[ALENGOSVIG1]

Today i had success casting AP in blasting caps.

I stood the blasting cap body filled with AP upright in a pot of water and began heating the water with a hotplate. When the water begins to simmer, unplug the hotplate and wait for the water to cool down before getting close to it. Thats it, your done.

Now your probally thinking that this is really dangerous and not worth the risk. When casting AP, your probally more likely to have it prematurely detonate then when pressing. The good thing about casting is that if it does detonate when its being heated, you wont be near it unlike when pressing. Another advantage is the higher density resulting in highter VoD.

Oh, make sure the water doesnt boil or the acetone peroxide will explode after a minute or two.

Happy casting.

[Rat Bastard]

Interesting, does it work with HMTD?

<small>[ June 17, 2002, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: Rat Bastard ]</small>

[ALENGOSVIG1]

If HMTD's mp is lower than its decomposition temp, then yes.I beilive HMTD decomposes at 74 or 75 degrees. I dont know the MP of MHTD but mabe a warm water bath could be used.

[0EZ0]

Sounds like a great idea! If the AP doesn't detonate from the heat.

Hopefully this 'cast' AP would be more stable than loose crystals of AP. Would this be true since the 'cast' AP would lose the characteristic of detonating from friction of crystals rubbing together?

I'm not saying that Ap would become Safe from doing this, but at least reduce sensativity a bit.

<small>[ June 17, 2002, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: 0EZ0 ]</small>

[Mick]

so i am assume that by doing this process you end up with a lump of AP which has "fused" itself together. so what happens if the lump of AP breaks in half?
would it not be like having a really big crystal of AP?

[ALENGOSVIG1]

I though of that also, but why would it matter if its inside a sturdy tube?

The only way it would get broken when inside the tube is if the tube was crushed or bent.

[PYRO500]

I think it might behave exactly like that, and even worse the crystal may expand/contract due to temp change meaning possible stress causing detonation. I did try melting AP a very ling time ago (years and years) and I managed to melt a small amount in a jar lid and the crystal turned a dark brown color when cooled I didn't realize what happened at first beacuse this was my first experience with acetone peroxide and without much info at the time on it I was foolishly trying to set up a candle and lid to get it do explode. I did find one practical use for this witch was to take squares of coffie filter and have them wick up the liquid AP witch when struck with a hammer would either explode or ignite the paper and occasionally a little of both. Now recalling my foolishness when I was young I see a possible method of impact detonation the whole crystal would be easily crushed allowing for easy placement of a crystal that could be easily crushed on impact, by no means safe to produce but in much smaller quantities than in blasting caps.

[nbk2000]

Could you use a bit of acetone/SP to act as a binder for the AP before heating it to boil off the acetone and solidify it in the detonator? This may serve the same purpose without the risk of fusing the AP.

[Mick]

sorry for being daft, but what does SP stand for again? i'm sure i know it, but i've drawn a complete mind blank.

i don't think i'll bother to try this one, the risk greatly out ways the advantage.
if you looking to increase density, then it would be easier to just combine AP with some acetone/nitrocellulose(sp?) - eg. ping pong balls
it would be a hell of alot safer too IMHO.

[plasma]

SP = Smokeless Powder

[sinstar]

S/P -smokeless powder, I think!

this has been said in the previous post. think before you post - Kingspaz

<small>[ June 18, 2002, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]</small>

[Mick]

oh, "duh!"

i knew that..
okay, cheers

[Energy84]

Hmmm, has anybody tried adding SP or DBSP (Double Base Smokeless Powder) to the a solution of AP in acetone then filtering it again? I wonder how the end product would perform in terms of sensitivity. No doubt, it would likely be powerful (sort of like the APAN mix previously suggested and subsequentially tested). Does anybody see any potential problems with this?
I'm assuming that the AP will have already been washed and have 5% sodium bicarbonate content to reduce any remaining traces of acidity. My biggest worry is with having the AP recrystallise (sp?) into larger crystals.

[inferno]

I think that by melting the AP, it would act as one big crystal of AP. If it cracked in half there would be a good chance of detonation. But then, with the increased VOD due to density, at least your hand should be relatively cleanly blown off as opposed to an inside-out bloody mess as would happen with BP.

You would want to be careful when melting it, it could very easily detonate accidently, and as someone stated the cast explosive could expand and shrink as its temperature changes, making it more dangerous in that respect.

Im sure in some ways it may be safer, but in other ways more dangerous. Would you want to snap a large block of cast AP in your hands?

[nbk2000]

I could see casting pellets of AP and using them as impact detonators. A probe acts as a hammer to smash the pellet against an "anvil" built into the weapon.

You could try encasing the pellets in silicone to insulate them a bit from rough handling and shrinkage/expansion pressures.

Also, if your AP is very pure, then it should be more stable to such contraction/expansions than impure.

[A-BOMB]

NBK if you could even mass produce those pellets(and where you thinking of using them to ignite the cap or using the pellet as the cap?) You could mass produce these buy using a thin shrink wrap tubing that doesn't contract much, and putting the CTAP in the tube and sperating it into clumps and putting the hole assembly into the warm water. The shrink wrap tube inbetween the AP clumps will shrink shut and allow you to cut the tube there making small plastic incased CTAP impact detonators. This shrink wrap tube process is even how I make my quick match, I fill the tube with loose BP+fine sawdust and tape off the ends and but in the water and its done.

[nbk2000]

The pellets could be used either way, depending on the explosive/purpose they're intended for.

A good way to make a hundred pellets at a time would be to use a shotgun primer tray. It has a hundred wells, is slightly tapered so the pellets will fall out easily, and is made of thick plastic.

Measure out a preweighed amount of AP into each well and float it in a pan of hot water. Voila'! AP pellets by the dozens. :)

[Marbles]

Alen,just wondering what kind of power[VOD] this cast AP had in comparison to normally pressed AP?Since it would nearly be at max. density the power should be pretty awesome.I have seen the difference between lightly pressed AP and AP crushed into a plastic tube and the difference in damage done is amazing.

[ALENGOSVIG1]

I dont know. I detonated some dynamite with the cast ap.

<small>[ June 21, 2002, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: ALENGOSVIG1 ]</small>

[Mad Scientist]

Although at first this seems brilliant - I'm not going to try it. The idea of handling a large chunk of acetone peroxide scares me... I agree with PYRO500.

Also keep in mind that as the chunk of acetone peroxide that is your detonator warms/cools, it's not going to change temperature perfectly evenly at a constant rate. Say that you have a warm cast acetone peroxide detonator. You walk outside with it, into the wintery air. The outside of the chunk of acetone peroxide will contract as it cools, *before* the inside begins to cool and contract. Result: "spontaneous" detonation is likely to occur, due to the center of the chunk of acetone peroxide being compressed by the contracting outer layer.

<small>[ June 22, 2002, 02:20 AM: Message edited by: Mad Scientist ]</small>

[Zambosan]

OT - but I'm not going to start a new topic for this; Mad Scientist's sig got me thinking... has anyone in the scientific community every nitrated buckyballs (buckminster fullerenes)? I don't think the energy density would even approach that of nitrocubanes since the larger ones have significant voids in them... but wouldn't that do wonders for the detonatability in a PBX? A polynitrated energetic compound that with its own inherent microspheres... :) Any thoughts?

[nbk2000]

I've read about research to develop a buckyball propellant that would have oxygen atoms trapped inside of the carbon cage of the buckyball.

Supposedly it would be the most powerful propellant existing. Even useable as an explosive. But it's all military research so no details, natch.

[Mad Scientist]

These are the nitrogen buckballs I was referring to: <a href="http://www.llnl.gov/str/June01/Manaa.html" target="_blank">http://www.llnl.gov/str/June01/Manaa.html</a>

[Zambosan]

Aha... both really interesting! On another page about carbon buckyballs, it mentions that the bonding is through sp2 hybridized orbitals, and that the structure resists double bonding in the ring structures (at least the pentagons), which prevents the formation of delocalised pi systems, leaving a p orbital free at *every* carbon molecule without having to put in the extra energy to disrupt an aromatic ring structure. So I imagine these suckers could be heavily nitrated... any reason why not?

[spydamonkee]

i wouldnt be so much worried about the expansion and shrinkage of the AP... i would worry like fuck if your blasting cap body was made outa steel though as i would certainly not want the hot expanded cap body to contract on the ap setting it off <img src="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/icon15.gif" alt=" - " />
not sure how likly it would be to happen but im not one to tempt fate :D

---
Just realized that i had said im not one to tempt fate yet one of my favorite hobbies is pyrotechnics and explosives <img src="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/icon18.gif" alt=" - " />

<small>[ July 28, 2002, 05:01 AM: Message edited by: spydamonkee ]</small>

[Archaeopteryx]

Hi all,

I too have tried cast AP in the past, and found it very successful, however haven't actually tested it's sensitivity as yet - rather handled it very carefully;) . Today I finally got around to doing a test:

Firstly the end of a straw was melted over, forming a seal and was then filled with .5 grams of AP. A pot of water was boiled and immediately after removing from heat the straw was immersed in the simmering water. One advantage of using a straw allows you to see the explosive melting and become transparent ~usually after about 20sec. The straw was then removed and immediately placed under cool running water. The AP takes on a matte, opaque appearance. This charge was then placed on an anvil onto which a 1Kg weight was released (from a distance). It was found the charge only detonated at heights above about 10cm - below this height the straw simply burst and a the cast AP was crushed - resembling normal powdered AP.

It in fact seems that as the AP recrystallises, it forms individual, distinctly separated crystals - not a single solid crystal as some have suggested - this would explain it's opaque appearance after cooling and it's impact sensitivity almost equal to that of un-cast AP. As a sidenote I have found that diametric AP is about 2x LESS impact sensitive than trimetric.

I am impressed by the apparent stability of cast AP and am going to continue using it due to the obvious advantage of greater density - pressed AP HALVES it's volume after melting.

[Tuatara]

The cooling rate will affect the size of the crystals. I wonder if dropping the melted AP into liquid nitrogen would result in amorphous AP. That would be an interesting experiment...

[Efraim_barkbit]

This thing about casting the AP seems like a good idea, if it´s not more sensitive than regular AP.
I tried to melt some over a lighter in a spoon, and indeed it was much more powerful than the same amount loose powder (bigger flame and poof)
How did you know you got the dimer version when you compared dimer/trimer?

How much does the sensitivity increase as the crystals get bigger? I want to know, because in my last batch, the crystals was much bigger than they were the other tree times i have made it.
it was almost like fine sand.

[kingspaz]

'I tried to melt some over a lighter in a spoon'
VERY BAD IDEA. note how alengosvig uses water. it will never reach any more than 100*C. spoon being metal will conduct heat very well, flame being alot more than 100*C will likely overheat the AP. very, very risky indeed.

[a_bab]

Kingspaz is right, believe me. I also put in fire a spoon full of AP in order to get the big flame, and instead I got ringing ears, a huge scare and a bent spoon. You know, the AP was too dried...

[Arthis]

Of course, normally it would instantly detonate, or fuse if there's still water in. When putting a spoon over a lighter you readily have a point of fusion that forms, since spoons are very thick.
This cause a few AP crystals to dry and detonate, and you know how it ends. Don't forget a flame from a lighter is several hundreds °C. (I should check the exact temp, just to know).


[EDIT]: I saw that butane lighter can reach 1300 °F, so i should be around 700°C --> much more than AP decomposing poing :)

[Efraim_barkbit]

I used only a very small amount, a pile about 5x5 mm, a couple of mm high, not exactly something that could bend a spoon.
I never light amounts nearly as big as spoonfulls without some kind of delay to get the time to putmy fingers in my ears :D

[kingspaz]

if that little section of AP detonates it WILL leave you with ringing ears. your risk to take, just don't come crying when you have hearing damage and nervous system damage to the hand holding the spoon. metal is solid, solids don't compress and thus conduct the shockwave --> sensory overload and damaged nerves, possibly permanent.

[Nevermore]

Originally posted by Archaeopteryx

CUT
The straw was then removed and immediately placed under cool running water. The AP takes on a matte, opaque appearance. This charge was then placed on an anvil onto which a 1Kg weight was released (from a distance). It was found the charge only detonated at heights above about 10cm - below this height the straw simply burst and a the cast AP was crushed - resembling normal powdered AP.

It in fact seems that as the AP recrystallises, it forms individual, distinctly separated crystals - not a single solid crystal as some have suggested - this would explain it's opaque appearance after cooling and it's impact sensitivity almost equal to that of un-cast AP. As a sidenote I have found that diametric AP is about 2x LESS impact sensitive than trimetric.
CUT


I am not so sure putting it under cold water is a good idea, the thermal stress could be enought to set off some cristal so detonating the whole charge, anyway allowing it to get cold over a long time could bring to the formation of big cristal that are something not wanted...anyway i think due to his volatily (i don't have any data about that but i guess so) there will be a considerable loss of mass during the cast operation, and casting in a closed container could led to the recristallization of the Ap on the sides and surfaces of the case. I've dreamt melting with an electric resistance and it worked perfectly, even dreamt using a fairly small amount, what makes me thinks is that if some water remain inside the casted Ap will be extremely hard to dry it out...