Anthony
March 17th, 2003, 08:01 PM
Arthis
Frequent Poster
Posts: 203
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted October 13, 2000 12:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is said that AP is a very unstable explosive compound. We can read everywhere to use sulfuric acid to make. I have 2 question. First, I have made AP many times, and I never had any problem with it, so I wonder why everybody advise to be very careful ? You can fill a small box with AP, and throw it away on the ground, nothing happens, and when you test new crystals of AP, Ap explodes when the flammes virtually touch it. Really sensitive ? My second question is why everybody knows how to make it with sulfuric acid ? It is a bit more dangerous, because when you put a bit of it in the acetone-p.h. mix, even if it is cooled to below 5°C, it boils a little: the first time I tried, I didn't know and poored a complete beaker of sulfuric acid in the mix (the hydrogen peroxyd was 35%) and it nearly exploded, boiled so strongly that acid jumped all over my room and burnt my tshirt, arms, jean; wall. With hydrochloric acid, there is no problem. Even if you don't cool the aceton-h.p mix, it will not boil (just lacrymogen vaps). You get more AP with this acid. So why do everybody always says to use sulfuric acid ?
------------------
La connaissance n'est pas dangeureuse, c'est son utilisation qui peut l'ętre
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted October 13, 2000 01:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ok... 1. why were you doing this inside.
2. you are adding WAY WAY WAY too much acid if it boils and 3. dilute the h2so4 to 50 % with water! hcl is harder to get good yeilds with, trust me I have tried
gcic
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted October 14, 2000 10:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, I agree with you for the same reasons.
TCAP isn`t that unstable like everybody says.
The manufacture with sulfuric acid creates a different modification as far as I am concerned. But there are some crazy guys who even use nitric acid instead of hydrochloric acid. I don`t know if it works.
My TCAP yield is very high with hydrochloric acid; I cannot imagine, that it is higher when using sulfuric acid.
simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 238
From: HELL
Registered: OCT 2000
posted October 14, 2000 12:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I use sulfuric 50% and the yield seems very good. I put the mixture in cold water bath and add the acid slowly to insure safety.
megalomania
Administrator
Posts: 651
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted December 03, 2000 11:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Before I file this away into the archive I just wanted to clear up a few things.
First of all, do not get comfortable with handling these explosives, just because you can treat it roughly and nothing happens does not mean it will always be like that. It is unstable, and others have found out the hard way, and there is literature to back this up.
Second, the scientists who discovered acetone triperoxide used sulfuric acid, its what the published literature says to use. Other later literature recommends HCl because thats what they had. You can use any "mineral" acid to make it, that means hydrochloric, nitric, sulfuric, and phosphoric acids. There is no difference, only what is cheapest and most available.
------------------
For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Explosives and Stuff at <a href="http://surf.to/megalomania" target="_blank">http://surf.to/megalomania</a>
Arthis
Frequent Poster
Posts: 203
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted December 08, 2000 04:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree about handling explosives. Everyone must be careful. right.
But is there any difference between the hydrochloric way and the sulfuric one ? I know there are 2 AP, C6H12O4 and C9H18O6, maybe that would explain the yield, wouldn't it ?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted December 08, 2000 07:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The H2SO4 ism ore likely to produce the dicyclo as it is typically sold in a much higher concentration than HCl, so if you add it too quickly to your AP brew then the solution will heat up causingt he formation of the dicyclo over the tricyclo which is produced at lower temperatures.
I think temperature does have an effect on your yield because when I've made rush batches of AP, (throw the chems into a jar, quick stir, stick it in the fridge)although crystal formation occured sooner, the total yeild was less.
megalomania
Administrator
Posts: 651
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 02, 2001 02:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, the temperature is the determining factor in making tricyclo over dicyclo acetone peroxide. Acid handling is a simple skill that I know like second nature, it's one of those things that you just know or do not. So, really it's not the acid that is the problem with yields, but the makers technique. Ignorance is always a problem factor in science.
------------------
For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Explosives and Stuff at <a href="http://surf.to/megalomania" target="_blank">http://surf.to/megalomania</a>
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 02, 2001 06:07 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've found that I get too get much better yields using sulfuric acid and I did get the boiling one time. One tip to get away from that is too pre chill all ingredients, if I do it in that manner I don't get the boiling. I've used hydrochloric, phosphoric, and sulfuric acids so far. Phoshporic acid just outright sucks, hyrdochloric pretty good, hydrochloric and phoshporic mixed 1:1 is pretty good, but in my experience sulfuric is the best. I'm guessing that it has to deal with the fact that at the same molar concentrations sulfuric acid has twice the normality of hydrochloric acid.
I've never made a batch of AP that I found to be really impact sensitive, in my opinion anyways. To set it off between to coins I have to spike the coins pretty hard on the ground for anything to happen. I've never had it, "just go off" either. But I still make sure I won't have a mishap.
All the properties of my various batches of AP have been quite the same, except in one batch I got very very small crystals, finer than I'm used to. No matter the acid it all as behaved the same, but with sulfuric I always get a better yield.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 02, 2001 06:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a comment on the coin thing, I'd be damn carefeful with those things if you are throwing them near you. The other day I made one with two pennies, the amount of AP between them was about as much as you could heap onto the blunt end of a pencil.
I taped it to an upright catalouge and shot it from across the room with my air rifle. The outer coin bent into a cone (I imagine the blast "wrapped" it around the incoming pellet) it flew off and hit the wall perfectly square it punched a nice round hole about 1/4" deep into the plaster. I found the circle of paint it punched out, printed on it was a copy of the coin in exact detail. I image if that thing hit you edge on you'de be in a spot of bother...
Frequent Poster
Posts: 203
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted October 13, 2000 12:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is said that AP is a very unstable explosive compound. We can read everywhere to use sulfuric acid to make. I have 2 question. First, I have made AP many times, and I never had any problem with it, so I wonder why everybody advise to be very careful ? You can fill a small box with AP, and throw it away on the ground, nothing happens, and when you test new crystals of AP, Ap explodes when the flammes virtually touch it. Really sensitive ? My second question is why everybody knows how to make it with sulfuric acid ? It is a bit more dangerous, because when you put a bit of it in the acetone-p.h. mix, even if it is cooled to below 5°C, it boils a little: the first time I tried, I didn't know and poored a complete beaker of sulfuric acid in the mix (the hydrogen peroxyd was 35%) and it nearly exploded, boiled so strongly that acid jumped all over my room and burnt my tshirt, arms, jean; wall. With hydrochloric acid, there is no problem. Even if you don't cool the aceton-h.p mix, it will not boil (just lacrymogen vaps). You get more AP with this acid. So why do everybody always says to use sulfuric acid ?
------------------
La connaissance n'est pas dangeureuse, c'est son utilisation qui peut l'ętre
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted October 13, 2000 01:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ok... 1. why were you doing this inside.
2. you are adding WAY WAY WAY too much acid if it boils and 3. dilute the h2so4 to 50 % with water! hcl is harder to get good yeilds with, trust me I have tried
gcic
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted October 14, 2000 10:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, I agree with you for the same reasons.
TCAP isn`t that unstable like everybody says.
The manufacture with sulfuric acid creates a different modification as far as I am concerned. But there are some crazy guys who even use nitric acid instead of hydrochloric acid. I don`t know if it works.
My TCAP yield is very high with hydrochloric acid; I cannot imagine, that it is higher when using sulfuric acid.
simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 238
From: HELL
Registered: OCT 2000
posted October 14, 2000 12:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I use sulfuric 50% and the yield seems very good. I put the mixture in cold water bath and add the acid slowly to insure safety.
megalomania
Administrator
Posts: 651
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted December 03, 2000 11:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Before I file this away into the archive I just wanted to clear up a few things.
First of all, do not get comfortable with handling these explosives, just because you can treat it roughly and nothing happens does not mean it will always be like that. It is unstable, and others have found out the hard way, and there is literature to back this up.
Second, the scientists who discovered acetone triperoxide used sulfuric acid, its what the published literature says to use. Other later literature recommends HCl because thats what they had. You can use any "mineral" acid to make it, that means hydrochloric, nitric, sulfuric, and phosphoric acids. There is no difference, only what is cheapest and most available.
------------------
For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Explosives and Stuff at <a href="http://surf.to/megalomania" target="_blank">http://surf.to/megalomania</a>
Arthis
Frequent Poster
Posts: 203
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted December 08, 2000 04:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree about handling explosives. Everyone must be careful. right.
But is there any difference between the hydrochloric way and the sulfuric one ? I know there are 2 AP, C6H12O4 and C9H18O6, maybe that would explain the yield, wouldn't it ?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted December 08, 2000 07:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The H2SO4 ism ore likely to produce the dicyclo as it is typically sold in a much higher concentration than HCl, so if you add it too quickly to your AP brew then the solution will heat up causingt he formation of the dicyclo over the tricyclo which is produced at lower temperatures.
I think temperature does have an effect on your yield because when I've made rush batches of AP, (throw the chems into a jar, quick stir, stick it in the fridge)although crystal formation occured sooner, the total yeild was less.
megalomania
Administrator
Posts: 651
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 02, 2001 02:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, the temperature is the determining factor in making tricyclo over dicyclo acetone peroxide. Acid handling is a simple skill that I know like second nature, it's one of those things that you just know or do not. So, really it's not the acid that is the problem with yields, but the makers technique. Ignorance is always a problem factor in science.
------------------
For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Explosives and Stuff at <a href="http://surf.to/megalomania" target="_blank">http://surf.to/megalomania</a>
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 02, 2001 06:07 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've found that I get too get much better yields using sulfuric acid and I did get the boiling one time. One tip to get away from that is too pre chill all ingredients, if I do it in that manner I don't get the boiling. I've used hydrochloric, phosphoric, and sulfuric acids so far. Phoshporic acid just outright sucks, hyrdochloric pretty good, hydrochloric and phoshporic mixed 1:1 is pretty good, but in my experience sulfuric is the best. I'm guessing that it has to deal with the fact that at the same molar concentrations sulfuric acid has twice the normality of hydrochloric acid.
I've never made a batch of AP that I found to be really impact sensitive, in my opinion anyways. To set it off between to coins I have to spike the coins pretty hard on the ground for anything to happen. I've never had it, "just go off" either. But I still make sure I won't have a mishap.
All the properties of my various batches of AP have been quite the same, except in one batch I got very very small crystals, finer than I'm used to. No matter the acid it all as behaved the same, but with sulfuric I always get a better yield.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 02, 2001 06:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a comment on the coin thing, I'd be damn carefeful with those things if you are throwing them near you. The other day I made one with two pennies, the amount of AP between them was about as much as you could heap onto the blunt end of a pencil.
I taped it to an upright catalouge and shot it from across the room with my air rifle. The outer coin bent into a cone (I imagine the blast "wrapped" it around the incoming pellet) it flew off and hit the wall perfectly square it punched a nice round hole about 1/4" deep into the plaster. I found the circle of paint it punched out, printed on it was a copy of the coin in exact detail. I image if that thing hit you edge on you'de be in a spot of bother...