Mixture of Greek Fire

[rolynd]

Does anyone know the original Mixture of the historical Greek fire?
Is it known at all?
So far I have been alble to find something like the "automatic fire" consisting of oil, sulphur and quicklime which ignites upon contact with water and is not quenched by it.
According to the historical sources the original greek fire floated on water ,was not quenched by water and was sticky.
Some people today say it contained KNO3 ,others it contained distilled petroleum (Erdpech) from natural oil seeps and thus was more comparable to todays napalm.
But so far I could not find anyone giving the formula for the original greek fire. Its method of delivery also seems not to be clear (by catapult, onager or else ? Pumps maybe?). I indeed have used the forum search but it brought up nothing useful so this question.

Regards
Rolynd

[rolynd]

Does anyone know the original Mixture of the historical Greek fire?
Is it known at all?
So far I have been alble to find something like the "automatic fire" consisting of oil, sulphur and quicklime which ignites upon contact with water and is not quenched by it.
According to the historical sources the original greek fire floated on water ,was not quenched by water and was sticky.
Some people today say it contained KNO3 ,others it contained distilled petroleum (Erdpech) from natural oil seeps and thus was more comparable to todays napalm.
But so far I could not find anyone giving the formula for the original greek fire. Its method of delivery also seems not to be clear (by catapult, onager or else ? Pumps maybe?). I indeed have used the forum search but it brought up nothing useful so this question.

Regards
Rolynd

[rolynd]

Does anyone know the original Mixture of the historical Greek fire?
Is it known at all?
So far I have been alble to find something like the "automatic fire" consisting of oil, sulphur and quicklime which ignites upon contact with water and is not quenched by it.
According to the historical sources the original greek fire floated on water ,was not quenched by water and was sticky.
Some people today say it contained KNO3 ,others it contained distilled petroleum (Erdpech) from natural oil seeps and thus was more comparable to todays napalm.
But so far I could not find anyone giving the formula for the original greek fire. Its method of delivery also seems not to be clear (by catapult, onager or else ? Pumps maybe?). I indeed have used the forum search but it brought up nothing useful so this question.

Regards
Rolynd

[Jacks Complete]

Since this has gone unanswered, I might as well answer it.

No one knows the actual mix that was "Greek Fire". It was a closely guarded secret, and if it was ever chiselled down (which I doubt) we haven't dug it up yet.

Have you got a recipe for "automatic fire"? It sounds like it could be fun!

[Jacks Complete]

Since this has gone unanswered, I might as well answer it.

No one knows the actual mix that was "Greek Fire". It was a closely guarded secret, and if it was ever chiselled down (which I doubt) we haven't dug it up yet.

Have you got a recipe for "automatic fire"? It sounds like it could be fun!

[FUTI]

I believe that Romans used mixture of CaO and sulphur wrapped with textile around a wooden stick. Soak with little water make a reaction - CaO + H2O makes Ca(OH)2 and heat, that melts and ignite the sulphur that burns with oxygen and blah-blah. Maybe that is only a variation of Greek fire recipe. I wonder how they make it sticky? Oil and some resin or soap?

[FUTI]

I believe that Romans used mixture of CaO and sulphur wrapped with textile around a wooden stick. Soak with little water make a reaction - CaO + H2O makes Ca(OH)2 and heat, that melts and ignite the sulphur that burns with oxygen and blah-blah. Maybe that is only a variation of Greek fire recipe. I wonder how they make it sticky? Oil and some resin or soap?

[sdjsdj]

Slightly off - topic, but still interesting - some incendiary mixtures discovered with a quick google search:

http://www.nbcmed.org/SiteContent/MedRef/OnlineRef/FieldManuals/fm8_285/PART_2/chapter9.htm

I hope that at least some of this stuff is helpful.

[sdjsdj]

Slightly off - topic, but still interesting - some incendiary mixtures discovered with a quick google search:

http://www.nbcmed.org/SiteContent/MedRef/OnlineRef/FieldManuals/fm8_285/PART_2/chapter9.htm

I hope that at least some of this stuff is helpful.

[xyz]

I remember seeing a list of what was supposedly in it in an old pyro book (was it Pyrotechny 1829?), no proportions though...

IIRC it contained sulfur, KNO3, heavy oil distillates, and a wagonload of other nasty stuff.

For automatic fire, a mix of finely powdered ammonium nitrate, ammonium chloride, and zinc dust (at around 67%, 3%, 30% respectively IIRC) ignites on contact with water.

[xyz]

I remember seeing a list of what was supposedly in it in an old pyro book (was it Pyrotechny 1829?), no proportions though...

IIRC it contained sulfur, KNO3, heavy oil distillates, and a wagonload of other nasty stuff.

For automatic fire, a mix of finely powdered ammonium nitrate, ammonium chloride, and zinc dust (at around 67%, 3%, 30% respectively IIRC) ignites on contact with water.

[cyclonite4]

I can't remember where I read (and/or) saw this, but it involved the greeks blowing a fire mixture down a wooden tube, or something along those lines, to give a flamethrower effect. Is this the same thing?
Wherever I read/saw this, all I remember being in the mixture was sulfur and oil (nothing was said about it autoigniting on contact with water).

[cyclonite4]

I can't remember where I read (and/or) saw this, but it involved the greeks blowing a fire mixture down a wooden tube, or something along those lines, to give a flamethrower effect. Is this the same thing?
Wherever I read/saw this, all I remember being in the mixture was sulfur and oil (nothing was said about it autoigniting on contact with water).

[The_Duke]

Concerning Greek Fire and its employment on the battlefield, it would seem that Naphtha was the main ingredient in Greek fire, but since there is no literature from that time period and there is no conclusive evidence of this, these statements cannot be verified. Arthur Marshall in his books “Explosives” gives the best description that I have seen on the matter of Greek fire (1st edition page 4 and second edition volume 1 page 12).

Cyclonite4, you are right, it was shot out of giant funnels or siphons which were fixed to boats, and the boat would then circle the enemies’ ships while pouring the Greek Fire and would entrap the enemy in a circle of fire. Apparently these were some of the most successful tactics ever employed in war (for the time period, of course).

Edit] Also, Brock in his book “Pyrotechnics” dated 1922 states on page 15 & 153 that Greek Fire was a mixture of Saltpeter, Pitch and Sulfur, which was charged into long tubes. But there is no reliable evidence that Saltpeter was recognized as a distinct substance before the tenth century at the earliest, so once again there is no real evidence that any of this is factual or true. There are too many variations to consider, so to put it bluntly, everything that is written or stated about Greek Fire should be taken with a grain of salt and should not be quoted as fact.

[The_Duke]

Concerning Greek Fire and its employment on the battlefield, it would seem that Naphtha was the main ingredient in Greek fire, but since there is no literature from that time period and there is no conclusive evidence of this, these statements cannot be verified. Arthur Marshall in his books “Explosives” gives the best description that I have seen on the matter of Greek fire (1st edition page 4 and second edition volume 1 page 12).

Cyclonite4, you are right, it was shot out of giant funnels or siphons which were fixed to boats, and the boat would then circle the enemies’ ships while pouring the Greek Fire and would entrap the enemy in a circle of fire. Apparently these were some of the most successful tactics ever employed in war (for the time period, of course).

Edit] Also, Brock in his book “Pyrotechnics” dated 1922 states on page 15 & 153 that Greek Fire was a mixture of Saltpeter, Pitch and Sulfur, which was charged into long tubes. But there is no reliable evidence that Saltpeter was recognized as a distinct substance before the tenth century at the earliest, so once again there is no real evidence that any of this is factual or true. There are too many variations to consider, so to put it bluntly, everything that is written or stated about Greek Fire should be taken with a grain of salt and should not be quoted as fact.

[rolynd]

Have just rediscovered I can contact the forums via proxy. the Ip is blocked by Goverment over here. Nice to be back again guys.

As for the automatic fire I have foud the following two compositions and a suggestion for the greek fire. Somwhere else ,I cannot exactly remember where, I read the prison inmates use aspirin and plastic spoons as some kind of improvised greek fire just light the tablet and fling the resulting burning globule at the enemy. Never tried this. But as the tablets consist mainly of filler material like starch which can actually burn it sounds not totally implausible.

a)Work 4 lb. of lime, 4 lb. of sulphur and 2 lb. of benedict oil into a dough.

B)Mix well together 5 oz. of unslaked lime, 5 oz. of sulphur and ½ oz. of benedict oil.

c)Grind 1 lb. of sandarach resin and 1 lb. of liquid gum ammoniac together in a pot and put it on a fire until the contents are melted. Then pour 4 lb. of Greek pitch over it to complete the composition.

Sulphur and lime are easy to get but what the hell is benedict oil? Have not been able to find this so far which prevented me from trying this out.

[FUTI]

I have no new info, but this thread had rise some interesting questions. Rolynd find some composition that by mine opinion involves usage of two interesting concept.

I guess that usage of sulfur and some kind of oil that contains certain amount of unsaturation can form some sort of vulcanised polymeric material which would be interesting - thats why it mentioned dough I guess. Polymers change viscosity of solutions and can make it stick to the target. Maybe that is the reason why the mixture should be heated before it was fired upon the target. Operatoron this weapon was heavily shielded but weapon was dangerous and often kill the operator, so it make me wonder something - did Greek's find a way to protects their ships from flame...
Fire retardant of some kind Na2SiO3 solution for wood (although this won't last long for ship imersed in water unless hardened with lime after first Na2SiO3 impregation), but how on Earth they protected the sails (cloth, rope etc.) - maybe they just used water pump and soak the ships before the battle.

The next interesting thing is usage of "ammonium resin soap" (God knows what is an english term for that) - that could make good emulsion and maybe little adhesive.

Did anyone look I think History channel that tried to reconstruct Greek fire...one solution was more like flamming arrow (Molotov cocktail like) throwed by catapult, but use of egg as fuel emulsifier is inspirative in my opinion.

[Jome skanish]

I've heard theories that one ingredient was Ca3P2 from something like CaPO4+C which would release PH3 and P2H4 in contact with water and that way ignite the rest of the mixture. But one would wonder why they did not use PH3 as a CW if they could prepare it...

[Chris The Great]

P2H4 is spontaneously flammable in air so the Greeks would not have been able to handle it as a CW. Also, they probably didn't even know why it worked, just that it did. Mineral A added to fire mix makes poison gas or something along the lines, not calcium phosphide makes toxic phosphine when reacted with water.

[FUTI]

I doubt they use something along that PH3/P2H4 line. Not that it won't work - it work even today in some naval solutions (although those are...light rockets fired from ship I think). It is to dangerous and those salts are hard to solubilise AFAIR, I don't think they were capable enough to throw suspension on enemy ships.

[fishy1]

As far as I know, it contained pine oil, and some other things.

pine oil burns ferociously when lit.

[FUTI]

Benedict oil is elusive to my searches on web, anything related to it and alchemical period lead me to obscure text about Sb compounds.

Well its sulphides are used in pyrotechnical devices AFAIK...does this give you some hint? My mind freezed trying to find answer. HTH