DREAD - a revolutionary new weapon system

[Jacks Complete]

Well, here's a new one!

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,520,169.WKU.&OS=PN/6,520,169&RS=PN/6,520,169

United States Patent 6,520,169
St. George February 18, 2003
Weapon for centrifugal propulsion of projectiles

Abstract

A weapon for centrifugally discharging projectiles at a rapid rate comprising a housing in which is rotatably mounted a disc having a multiplicity of feed channels extending radially therein. Each of the feed channels receives a multiplicity of projectiles and is configured to orient the projectiles in a single file adjacent the disc periphery of the disc projectile locking means. Each of the channels has located adjacent the periphery disc a multiplicity of stops movable between a first position within the channel to preclude movement of the outermost projectile outwardly of the channel and a second position removed from the channel to permit movement of a projectile thereby. Locking cams move the stops between the first and second positions, and other came actuate the locking cams as the disc rotates to move the outermost stop into the second position and release the outermost projectile while the adjacent stop restrains the adjacent projectile, which is thereafter released to move outwardly until restricted by the first stop. The projectiles are released into a guide rail extending substantially about the periphery of the disc and the guide having a discharge opening therein.
Inventors: St. George; Charles W. (Avon, CT)
Assignee: Trinamic Technologies, LLC (West Hartford, CT)
Appl. No.: 795807
Filed: February 28, 2001

Current U.S. Class: 124/6
Intern'l Class: F41B 003/04
Field of Search: 124/6,45,48,51.1,82

More (an article plus video) here: http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=526

---

Basically, this is a centrifuge for ball bearings.

A very high powered one, but still... Claiming a top speed of 8000fps/2500m/s in .3" up to .5", jam proof, high RoF, etc.

From my calculations, the form of the equation that describes it is

Vel = Pi x D xRPM/60

Use metric!

For a Vel of 2450m/s, you need a disc diameter of 60cm, and an RPM of 77985!

I doubt these speeds will be reached any time soon. That's 1300 revolutions per second! Then you have to add your ball bearings, which is easy to do with a hopper that feeds through the upper axel, which is hollow for this very purpose.

You have several feed lines which spiral from the center to the outside edge, either straight, for the edge velocity to equal the projectile velocity, or, if you curve it forwards, you will find that the projectile velocity will exceed the edge velocity.

Once clear of the edge, the projectiles reach a guidance strip, which runs around the outside edge, and is as close to a barrel as this design needs. It simply catches the balls and lets them go round until they exit at the mouth, flying then towards the target.

Predictably, balancing will be tricky. Bearing just can't cope with that sort of speed and take a load at the same time. Until it is spun up, it will be useless. Gyro forces will rip it to shreds, and if that disc fails, you are cut in half. Loss of power means that after a few shots you will run out of KE in your projectiles.

However, for certain tasks, like avoiding firearms laws, this might be very useful! It has no barrel, therefore is outside the current UK law.

Also, for point defence, it would be ideal, as long as a high current power source remains. You just add 300,000 BBs and away you go! :eek:

[Jacks Complete]

Well, here's a new one!

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,520,169.WKU.&OS=PN/6,520,169&RS=PN/6,520,169

United States Patent 6,520,169
St. George February 18, 2003
Weapon for centrifugal propulsion of projectiles

Abstract

A weapon for centrifugally discharging projectiles at a rapid rate comprising a housing in which is rotatably mounted a disc having a multiplicity of feed channels extending radially therein. Each of the feed channels receives a multiplicity of projectiles and is configured to orient the projectiles in a single file adjacent the disc periphery of the disc projectile locking means. Each of the channels has located adjacent the periphery disc a multiplicity of stops movable between a first position within the channel to preclude movement of the outermost projectile outwardly of the channel and a second position removed from the channel to permit movement of a projectile thereby. Locking cams move the stops between the first and second positions, and other came actuate the locking cams as the disc rotates to move the outermost stop into the second position and release the outermost projectile while the adjacent stop restrains the adjacent projectile, which is thereafter released to move outwardly until restricted by the first stop. The projectiles are released into a guide rail extending substantially about the periphery of the disc and the guide having a discharge opening therein.
Inventors: St. George; Charles W. (Avon, CT)
Assignee: Trinamic Technologies, LLC (West Hartford, CT)
Appl. No.: 795807
Filed: February 28, 2001

Current U.S. Class: 124/6
Intern'l Class: F41B 003/04
Field of Search: 124/6,45,48,51.1,82

More (an article plus video) here: http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=526

---

Basically, this is a centrifuge for ball bearings.

A very high powered one, but still... Claiming a top speed of 8000fps/2500m/s in .3" up to .5", jam proof, high RoF, etc.

From my calculations, the form of the equation that describes it is

Vel = Pi x D xRPM/60

Use metric!

For a Vel of 2450m/s, you need a disc diameter of 60cm, and an RPM of 77985!

I doubt these speeds will be reached any time soon. That's 1300 revolutions per second! Then you have to add your ball bearings, which is easy to do with a hopper that feeds through the upper axel, which is hollow for this very purpose.

You have several feed lines which spiral from the center to the outside edge, either straight, for the edge velocity to equal the projectile velocity, or, if you curve it forwards, you will find that the projectile velocity will exceed the edge velocity.

Once clear of the edge, the projectiles reach a guidance strip, which runs around the outside edge, and is as close to a barrel as this design needs. It simply catches the balls and lets them go round until they exit at the mouth, flying then towards the target.

Predictably, balancing will be tricky. Bearing just can't cope with that sort of speed and take a load at the same time. Until it is spun up, it will be useless. Gyro forces will rip it to shreds, and if that disc fails, you are cut in half. Loss of power means that after a few shots you will run out of KE in your projectiles.

However, for certain tasks, like avoiding firearms laws, this might be very useful! It has no barrel, therefore is outside the current UK law.

Also, for point defence, it would be ideal, as long as a high current power source remains. You just add 300,000 BBs and away you go! :eek:

[Jacks Complete]

Well, here's a new one!

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,520,169.WKU.&OS=PN/6,520,169&RS=PN/6,520,169

United States Patent 6,520,169
St. George February 18, 2003
Weapon for centrifugal propulsion of projectiles

Abstract

A weapon for centrifugally discharging projectiles at a rapid rate comprising a housing in which is rotatably mounted a disc having a multiplicity of feed channels extending radially therein. Each of the feed channels receives a multiplicity of projectiles and is configured to orient the projectiles in a single file adjacent the disc periphery of the disc projectile locking means. Each of the channels has located adjacent the periphery disc a multiplicity of stops movable between a first position within the channel to preclude movement of the outermost projectile outwardly of the channel and a second position removed from the channel to permit movement of a projectile thereby. Locking cams move the stops between the first and second positions, and other came actuate the locking cams as the disc rotates to move the outermost stop into the second position and release the outermost projectile while the adjacent stop restrains the adjacent projectile, which is thereafter released to move outwardly until restricted by the first stop. The projectiles are released into a guide rail extending substantially about the periphery of the disc and the guide having a discharge opening therein.
Inventors: St. George; Charles W. (Avon, CT)
Assignee: Trinamic Technologies, LLC (West Hartford, CT)
Appl. No.: 795807
Filed: February 28, 2001

Current U.S. Class: 124/6
Intern'l Class: F41B 003/04
Field of Search: 124/6,45,48,51.1,82

More (an article plus video) here: http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=526

---

Basically, this is a centrifuge for ball bearings.

A very high powered one, but still... Claiming a top speed of 8000fps/2500m/s in .3" up to .5", jam proof, high RoF, etc.

From my calculations, the form of the equation that describes it is

Vel = Pi x D xRPM/60

Use metric!

For a Vel of 2450m/s, you need a disc diameter of 60cm, and an RPM of 77985!

I doubt these speeds will be reached any time soon. That's 1300 revolutions per second! Then you have to add your ball bearings, which is easy to do with a hopper that feeds through the upper axel, which is hollow for this very purpose.

You have several feed lines which spiral from the center to the outside edge, either straight, for the edge velocity to equal the projectile velocity, or, if you curve it forwards, you will find that the projectile velocity will exceed the edge velocity.

Once clear of the edge, the projectiles reach a guidance strip, which runs around the outside edge, and is as close to a barrel as this design needs. It simply catches the balls and lets them go round until they exit at the mouth, flying then towards the target.

Predictably, balancing will be tricky. Bearing just can't cope with that sort of speed and take a load at the same time. Until it is spun up, it will be useless. Gyro forces will rip it to shreds, and if that disc fails, you are cut in half. Loss of power means that after a few shots you will run out of KE in your projectiles.

However, for certain tasks, like avoiding firearms laws, this might be very useful! It has no barrel, therefore is outside the current UK law.

Also, for point defence, it would be ideal, as long as a high current power source remains. You just add 300,000 BBs and away you go! :eek:

[Skean Dhu]

If your going to use BBs(ie, daisy .177/4.5mm BBs) then you could use a device called a 'strafer' or another design 'cloud' both were designed by members of the spudtech forum. they are relativly simple to construct due to the lack of moving parts , but require a large air resevior, such as a high-flow air compressor.
These things have RoFs around 80 rounds/sec and can go higher if you use more pressure . The destruction dealt by a strafer or cloud BBMG is awesome. An entire phonebook was obliterated(sp?) in under a minute.

[Skean Dhu]

If your going to use BBs(ie, daisy .177/4.5mm BBs) then you could use a device called a 'strafer' or another design 'cloud' both were designed by members of the spudtech forum. they are relativly simple to construct due to the lack of moving parts , but require a large air resevior, such as a high-flow air compressor.
These things have RoFs around 80 rounds/sec and can go higher if you use more pressure . The destruction dealt by a strafer or cloud BBMG is awesome. An entire phonebook was obliterated(sp?) in under a minute.

[Skean Dhu]

If your going to use BBs(ie, daisy .177/4.5mm BBs) then you could use a device called a 'strafer' or another design 'cloud' both were designed by members of the spudtech forum. they are relativly simple to construct due to the lack of moving parts , but require a large air resevior, such as a high-flow air compressor.
These things have RoFs around 80 rounds/sec and can go higher if you use more pressure . The destruction dealt by a strafer or cloud BBMG is awesome. An entire phonebook was obliterated(sp?) in under a minute.

[Bigfoot]

PMJB, vol 2 (IIRC) details this type of device. Single projo channel, but +/- same idea.

So his innovation was...multiple channels?

[Bigfoot]

PMJB, vol 2 (IIRC) details this type of device. Single projo channel, but +/- same idea.

So his innovation was...multiple channels?

[Bigfoot]

PMJB, vol 2 (IIRC) details this type of device. Single projo channel, but +/- same idea.

So his innovation was...multiple channels?

[nbk2000]

I was thinking the same thing about the PMJB!

Perhaps someone should inform the USPTO about this 'prior art', and get this lames patent pulled! :mad:

The one thing that it would be good for is that, since the ammo is feed from the center, and the firing ports are at the rim, by opening shutters at various points along the rim, you can fire at multiple targets at the same time, without having to re-orient a barrel. :)

I also like the Hi-Tek method they used to obscure the address and fax number...a blue ball-point pen scratched over the info. :p

Real security from a real company! :D

This has got to be vapor-ware.

[nbk2000]

I was thinking the same thing about the PMJB!

Perhaps someone should inform the USPTO about this 'prior art', and get this lames patent pulled! :mad:

The one thing that it would be good for is that, since the ammo is feed from the center, and the firing ports are at the rim, by opening shutters at various points along the rim, you can fire at multiple targets at the same time, without having to re-orient a barrel. :)

I also like the Hi-Tek method they used to obscure the address and fax number...a blue ball-point pen scratched over the info. :p

Real security from a real company! :D

This has got to be vapor-ware.

[nbk2000]

I was thinking the same thing about the PMJB!

Perhaps someone should inform the USPTO about this 'prior art', and get this lames patent pulled! :mad:

The one thing that it would be good for is that, since the ammo is feed from the center, and the firing ports are at the rim, by opening shutters at various points along the rim, you can fire at multiple targets at the same time, without having to re-orient a barrel. :)

I also like the Hi-Tek method they used to obscure the address and fax number...a blue ball-point pen scratched over the info. :p

Real security from a real company! :D

This has got to be vapor-ware.

[malzraa]

I had a video demo of that weapon a while back if I recall. Very interesting. If it does use centrifuge design, there must either be some force pulling the balls towards the center, or extremely durable walls. If it just uses strong walls to contain the spin, you would think that would lead to issues with friction. I wonder if anything provides the angular momentum other than just a spinning disk?

[malzraa]

I had a video demo of that weapon a while back if I recall. Very interesting. If it does use centrifuge design, there must either be some force pulling the balls towards the center, or extremely durable walls. If it just uses strong walls to contain the spin, you would think that would lead to issues with friction. I wonder if anything provides the angular momentum other than just a spinning disk?

[malzraa]

I had a video demo of that weapon a while back if I recall. Very interesting. If it does use centrifuge design, there must either be some force pulling the balls towards the center, or extremely durable walls. If it just uses strong walls to contain the spin, you would think that would lead to issues with friction. I wonder if anything provides the angular momentum other than just a spinning disk?

[megalomania]

I do believe the centrifuges they use for seperating uranium isotopes can spin up to 80,000 rpm. Such high speed centrifuges are also illegal because of their dual use potential.

I was also thinking of the design in the PMJB. I wonder what exactly the purpose of this weapon is? If you have the money and resources dosen't a conventional firearm make more sense?

[megalomania]

I do believe the centrifuges they use for seperating uranium isotopes can spin up to 80,000 rpm. Such high speed centrifuges are also illegal because of their dual use potential.

I was also thinking of the design in the PMJB. I wonder what exactly the purpose of this weapon is? If you have the money and resources dosen't a conventional firearm make more sense?

[megalomania]

I do believe the centrifuges they use for seperating uranium isotopes can spin up to 80,000 rpm. Such high speed centrifuges are also illegal because of their dual use potential.

I was also thinking of the design in the PMJB. I wonder what exactly the purpose of this weapon is? If you have the money and resources dosen't a conventional firearm make more sense?

[xyz]

Kurt Saxon didn't go into much detail for precisely that reason Mega, that a conventional firearm is easier to acquire or manufacture.

He mentioned centrifugal guns pretty much as a curiosity, and also because they aren't (yet) regulated by any firearms laws.

[xyz]

Kurt Saxon didn't go into much detail for precisely that reason Mega, that a conventional firearm is easier to acquire or manufacture.

He mentioned centrifugal guns pretty much as a curiosity, and also because they aren't (yet) regulated by any firearms laws.

[xyz]

Kurt Saxon didn't go into much detail for precisely that reason Mega, that a conventional firearm is easier to acquire or manufacture.

He mentioned centrifugal guns pretty much as a curiosity, and also because they aren't (yet) regulated by any firearms laws.

[Jacks Complete]

Yes, freedom from the law is quite useful. While it lasts...

Other advantages are the lack of firing signature(s), the variable level of lethality due to changing the spin speed (not instant, but quite quick), ease of manufacture (people ask questions about anything barrel like) and the lack of wear nad high pressures.

I'm going to try building one. I've not got anything amazingly fast, but a cirucular saw does 4500rpm, which I work out to be an edge speed of 188 m/s on an 80cm disc. With the normal sized disc (185mm) it would be just 43.5 m/s. It scales up well!

[Jacks Complete]

Yes, freedom from the law is quite useful. While it lasts...

Other advantages are the lack of firing signature(s), the variable level of lethality due to changing the spin speed (not instant, but quite quick), ease of manufacture (people ask questions about anything barrel like) and the lack of wear nad high pressures.

I'm going to try building one. I've not got anything amazingly fast, but a cirucular saw does 4500rpm, which I work out to be an edge speed of 188 m/s on an 80cm disc. With the normal sized disc (185mm) it would be just 43.5 m/s. It scales up well!

[Jacks Complete]

Yes, freedom from the law is quite useful. While it lasts...

Other advantages are the lack of firing signature(s), the variable level of lethality due to changing the spin speed (not instant, but quite quick), ease of manufacture (people ask questions about anything barrel like) and the lack of wear nad high pressures.

I'm going to try building one. I've not got anything amazingly fast, but a cirucular saw does 4500rpm, which I work out to be an edge speed of 188 m/s on an 80cm disc. With the normal sized disc (185mm) it would be just 43.5 m/s. It scales up well!

[Sparky]

When thinking about high speed electrical motors, woodworking routers come to mind quickly.

They are easily available and the motor comes in a convenient form. By convenient I mean that a router is a very simple device, and would lend itself well to adaptation. A quick internet search reveals examples of variable speed models that go up to 25 000 rpm (2 hp).

With a 30 cm radius this brings the edge speed to 786 m/s, which is reasonably good.

Oops, just found this by accident. It's an article about the DREAD system:
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_DREAD,,00.html

The article (well, inventor) claims that the product is not vaporware at all. The part about no recoil enabling it to be fired in space without altering paths is obviously bogus though, since momentum is stilll conserved.

A problem I see is when a round is fired, the thing is unbalanced all of a sudden. At such high speeds, I could see this being pretty bad. The rounds have to be added properly maybe, to counterbalance. Some sort of shock to the system seem hard to avoid though, since timing would have to be impeccable.

[Sparky]

When thinking about high speed electrical motors, woodworking routers come to mind quickly.

They are easily available and the motor comes in a convenient form. By convenient I mean that a router is a very simple device, and would lend itself well to adaptation. A quick internet search reveals examples of variable speed models that go up to 25 000 rpm (2 hp).

With a 30 cm radius this brings the edge speed to 786 m/s, which is reasonably good.

Oops, just found this by accident. It's an article about the DREAD system:
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_DREAD,,00.html

The article (well, inventor) claims that the product is not vaporware at all. The part about no recoil enabling it to be fired in space without altering paths is obviously bogus though, since momentum is stilll conserved.

A problem I see is when a round is fired, the thing is unbalanced all of a sudden. At such high speeds, I could see this being pretty bad. The rounds have to be added properly maybe, to counterbalance. Some sort of shock to the system seem hard to avoid though, since timing would have to be impeccable.

[Sparky]

When thinking about high speed electrical motors, woodworking routers come to mind quickly.

They are easily available and the motor comes in a convenient form. By convenient I mean that a router is a very simple device, and would lend itself well to adaptation. A quick internet search reveals examples of variable speed models that go up to 25 000 rpm (2 hp).

With a 30 cm radius this brings the edge speed to 786 m/s, which is reasonably good.

Oops, just found this by accident. It's an article about the DREAD system:
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_DREAD,,00.html

The article (well, inventor) claims that the product is not vaporware at all. The part about no recoil enabling it to be fired in space without altering paths is obviously bogus though, since momentum is stilll conserved.

A problem I see is when a round is fired, the thing is unbalanced all of a sudden. At such high speeds, I could see this being pretty bad. The rounds have to be added properly maybe, to counterbalance. Some sort of shock to the system seem hard to avoid though, since timing would have to be impeccable.

[Cyclonite]

This sounds alot like a newer active tracking mine dispenser.....is this what the patent is referring too?

Well they arent anywhere close to that speed so i guees not

[Cyclonite]

This sounds alot like a newer active tracking mine dispenser.....is this what the patent is referring too?

Well they arent anywhere close to that speed so i guees not

[Cyclonite]

This sounds alot like a newer active tracking mine dispenser.....is this what the patent is referring too?

Well they arent anywhere close to that speed so i guees not

[nbk2000]

If the thing had two firing ports on opposing sides, then it could be recoiless in space, as it could fire two rounds in opposite directions, each negating the others recoil. This assumes that the target is not directly in line with a 'friendly' assest that gets killed by the recoil shot. :p

Angle grinders come to mind for easy centrifuges. A 9" goes at least 6,500RPM, and it's got torque to spare, and a ready-made mounting system for a disk. :)

Even if you're not throwing balls at hypersonic speeds, a 3/8" steel bearing at 400 FPS would be more than enough to fuck someone up, especially if you're throwing dozens per second.

Short range, high volume, saturation fire. :) Just the thing for sweeping wild boar from the bushes around your house. ;)

[nbk2000]

If the thing had two firing ports on opposing sides, then it could be recoiless in space, as it could fire two rounds in opposite directions, each negating the others recoil. This assumes that the target is not directly in line with a 'friendly' assest that gets killed by the recoil shot. :p

Angle grinders come to mind for easy centrifuges. A 9" goes at least 6,500RPM, and it's got torque to spare, and a ready-made mounting system for a disk. :)

Even if you're not throwing balls at hypersonic speeds, a 3/8" steel bearing at 400 FPS would be more than enough to fuck someone up, especially if you're throwing dozens per second.

Short range, high volume, saturation fire. :) Just the thing for sweeping wild boar from the bushes around your house. ;)

[nbk2000]

If the thing had two firing ports on opposing sides, then it could be recoiless in space, as it could fire two rounds in opposite directions, each negating the others recoil. This assumes that the target is not directly in line with a 'friendly' assest that gets killed by the recoil shot. :p

Angle grinders come to mind for easy centrifuges. A 9" goes at least 6,500RPM, and it's got torque to spare, and a ready-made mounting system for a disk. :)

Even if you're not throwing balls at hypersonic speeds, a 3/8" steel bearing at 400 FPS would be more than enough to fuck someone up, especially if you're throwing dozens per second.

Short range, high volume, saturation fire. :) Just the thing for sweeping wild boar from the bushes around your house. ;)

[Jacks Complete]

Even with a port on either side, the weapon is no use in space.

Basically, the torque will kill you! You are talking about a giant disc that pushes hard against objects that are being thrown far away at speed. This results in a push backwards. If you cancel this with another ball in the opposite direction, it will stop the recoil.

However...

To start the machine up, you are spinning a disc up to a high speed, and that torque has to go somewhere, so your entire craft will start to rotate against the disc. Conservation of angular momentum is exactly the same as linear. Your spaceship starts to spin, and you will have to balance that with a rocket burn. Every time you fire (two) balls, you will have to fire the rockets again, since the spin imparted to the balls will also affect your ship.

Of course, if you mounted several at different angles, you could use them for energy storage, attitude adjustment, spin stabilisation, and all-round defensive weapons. Quite a useful thing to have, on a space craft, but if it breaks, that's a lot of vital systems that are gone!

[Jacks Complete]

Even with a port on either side, the weapon is no use in space.

Basically, the torque will kill you! You are talking about a giant disc that pushes hard against objects that are being thrown far away at speed. This results in a push backwards. If you cancel this with another ball in the opposite direction, it will stop the recoil.

However...

To start the machine up, you are spinning a disc up to a high speed, and that torque has to go somewhere, so your entire craft will start to rotate against the disc. Conservation of angular momentum is exactly the same as linear. Your spaceship starts to spin, and you will have to balance that with a rocket burn. Every time you fire (two) balls, you will have to fire the rockets again, since the spin imparted to the balls will also affect your ship.

Of course, if you mounted several at different angles, you could use them for energy storage, attitude adjustment, spin stabilisation, and all-round defensive weapons. Quite a useful thing to have, on a space craft, but if it breaks, that's a lot of vital systems that are gone!

[Jacks Complete]

Even with a port on either side, the weapon is no use in space.

Basically, the torque will kill you! You are talking about a giant disc that pushes hard against objects that are being thrown far away at speed. This results in a push backwards. If you cancel this with another ball in the opposite direction, it will stop the recoil.

However...

To start the machine up, you are spinning a disc up to a high speed, and that torque has to go somewhere, so your entire craft will start to rotate against the disc. Conservation of angular momentum is exactly the same as linear. Your spaceship starts to spin, and you will have to balance that with a rocket burn. Every time you fire (two) balls, you will have to fire the rockets again, since the spin imparted to the balls will also affect your ship.

Of course, if you mounted several at different angles, you could use them for energy storage, attitude adjustment, spin stabilisation, and all-round defensive weapons. Quite a useful thing to have, on a space craft, but if it breaks, that's a lot of vital systems that are gone!

[FUTI]

Where did you find the info about range? I was looking for it but didn't have luck.
Interesting concept but I'm little sceptic...new ideas are hard to catch on if you are getting old.

[FUTI]

Where did you find the info about range? I was looking for it but didn't have luck.
Interesting concept but I'm little sceptic...new ideas are hard to catch on if you are getting old.

[FUTI]

Where did you find the info about range? I was looking for it but didn't have luck.
Interesting concept but I'm little sceptic...new ideas are hard to catch on if you are getting old.

[Jacks Complete]

There isn't really any info about range. It will just be the usual equation for a ball. However, it is very hard to get this system to throw balls fast, as the spin rates become silly, and the accuracy is fairly poor, but will probably improve over time.

An active nozzle would be great, as this could shift the point of aim quite rapidly. Moving the entire gun wikll be hard, especially changing elevation, due to gyroscopic effects.

[Jacks Complete]

There isn't really any info about range. It will just be the usual equation for a ball. However, it is very hard to get this system to throw balls fast, as the spin rates become silly, and the accuracy is fairly poor, but will probably improve over time.

An active nozzle would be great, as this could shift the point of aim quite rapidly. Moving the entire gun wikll be hard, especially changing elevation, due to gyroscopic effects.

[Jacks Complete]

There isn't really any info about range. It will just be the usual equation for a ball. However, it is very hard to get this system to throw balls fast, as the spin rates become silly, and the accuracy is fairly poor, but will probably improve over time.

An active nozzle would be great, as this could shift the point of aim quite rapidly. Moving the entire gun wikll be hard, especially changing elevation, due to gyroscopic effects.

[Jacks Complete]

Right, I've been digging around, and it seems that for the best results, we want something that has solid bearings, resists shock, and is fairly small but still powerful, whilst still spinning rather fast.

The best thing I could find was the humble 3.5" angle grinder. Yours for £10, it spins at between 10,000 and 11,000 rpm. I failed to find a 9" that went faster than 4,500, and I couldn't find any routers, due to the store closing around me. (Sunday trading ends at 4 in the UK)

Anyway, this gives the following edge speeds at 10,500rpm:

115mm/4.5" -> 63 m/s
152mm/ 6" -> 83 m/s
300mm / 12" ->167m/s

Will do some more work on this tomorrow.

EDIT: Has anyone checked my equation is right?

[Jacks Complete]

Right, I've been digging around, and it seems that for the best results, we want something that has solid bearings, resists shock, and is fairly small but still powerful, whilst still spinning rather fast.

The best thing I could find was the humble 3.5" angle grinder. Yours for £10, it spins at between 10,000 and 11,000 rpm. I failed to find a 9" that went faster than 4,500, and I couldn't find any routers, due to the store closing around me. (Sunday trading ends at 4 in the UK)

Anyway, this gives the following edge speeds at 10,500rpm:

115mm/4.5" -> 63 m/s
152mm/ 6" -> 83 m/s
300mm / 12" ->167m/s

Will do some more work on this tomorrow.

EDIT: Has anyone checked my equation is right?

[Jacks Complete]

Right, I've been digging around, and it seems that for the best results, we want something that has solid bearings, resists shock, and is fairly small but still powerful, whilst still spinning rather fast.

The best thing I could find was the humble 3.5" angle grinder. Yours for £10, it spins at between 10,000 and 11,000 rpm. I failed to find a 9" that went faster than 4,500, and I couldn't find any routers, due to the store closing around me. (Sunday trading ends at 4 in the UK)

Anyway, this gives the following edge speeds at 10,500rpm:

115mm/4.5" -> 63 m/s
152mm/ 6" -> 83 m/s
300mm / 12" ->167m/s

Will do some more work on this tomorrow.

EDIT: Has anyone checked my equation is right?

[malzraa]

Is that radius or diameter?

[malzraa]

Is that radius or diameter?

[malzraa]

Is that radius or diameter?

[Jacks Complete]

That's a diameter.

Vel = Pi x D xRPM/60

Velocity of edge/projectile = Pi x Diameter x RPM/60

It's the same equation you would use to find the road speed of a car from the size of the wheels and the rate of turn, if anyone knows what that is.

[Jacks Complete]

That's a diameter.

Vel = Pi x D xRPM/60

Velocity of edge/projectile = Pi x Diameter x RPM/60

It's the same equation you would use to find the road speed of a car from the size of the wheels and the rate of turn, if anyone knows what that is.

[nbk2000]

If you mounted the two discs on the same axis, but rotating in oppositon to each other, they'd nullify each others torque.

This is used on some helicopter drones.

[nbk2000]

If you mounted the two discs on the same axis, but rotating in oppositon to each other, they'd nullify each others torque.

This is used on some helicopter drones.

[DirtyDan]

If you mounted the two discs on the same axis, but rotating in oppositon to each other, they'd nullify each others torque.

This is used on some helicopter drones.


I too thought of this, but it is interesting that the diagram found on the site is so simply drawn -- assuming that such measures are taken for stability, the pictures would not even come close to the real weapon :rolleyes:

Also, with so much ammo, how would it be loaded? Would there be an emense canister underneath the rotor which would by some mechanical means lift the projectiles to a launch point? Very strange..

[DirtyDan]

If you mounted the two discs on the same axis, but rotating in oppositon to each other, they'd nullify each others torque.

This is used on some helicopter drones.


I too thought of this, but it is interesting that the diagram found on the site is so simply drawn -- assuming that such measures are taken for stability, the pictures would not even come close to the real weapon :rolleyes:

Also, with so much ammo, how would it be loaded? Would there be an emense canister underneath the rotor which would by some mechanical means lift the projectiles to a launch point? Very strange..

[Jacks Complete]

Yes, they would, but only until the rate of turn was different, or the weapons had to fire.

Also, there is still a small torque, which is hardly noticable on earth, but in space you would have some horrendous issues, as the entire ship sung the wrong way. Also, the gyroscopic effects would mean that the entire craft would remain in the same orientation as it orbited, meaning that you would have to keep wasting energy moving the craft's telescopes, antennas, etc. to keep them looking down at the earth.

I think the answer is to have multiple discs, all spinning on different axes, and a way to fine tune them electronically. This would allow the negative effects to be positive, as well as allowing energy storage without capacitors or batteries.

For earth use, two discs is twice the fun! The only risk is if the torque gets too high and bends or breaks the connecting axel. It would add a little complexity into the design, but not much.

As far as building one goes, I've determined that the speed of a catapult slingshot ball is about 180 m/s (further research required into mass, etc.) so that is going to be my target speed for now.

I need a 33cm diameter disc to do this at 10,500RPM. All I need now is to find someone with a large lathe who can turn a disc at the right size with the right hole in the center. Which is easier said than done, since it needs to be balanced nicely, as well as having a system to accelarate the balls smoothly, something like a set of rails, or some other way to impart momentum.

[Jacks Complete]

Yes, they would, but only until the rate of turn was different, or the weapons had to fire.

Also, there is still a small torque, which is hardly noticable on earth, but in space you would have some horrendous issues, as the entire ship sung the wrong way. Also, the gyroscopic effects would mean that the entire craft would remain in the same orientation as it orbited, meaning that you would have to keep wasting energy moving the craft's telescopes, antennas, etc. to keep them looking down at the earth.

I think the answer is to have multiple discs, all spinning on different axes, and a way to fine tune them electronically. This would allow the negative effects to be positive, as well as allowing energy storage without capacitors or batteries.

For earth use, two discs is twice the fun! The only risk is if the torque gets too high and bends or breaks the connecting axel. It would add a little complexity into the design, but not much.

As far as building one goes, I've determined that the speed of a catapult slingshot ball is about 180 m/s (further research required into mass, etc.) so that is going to be my target speed for now.

I need a 33cm diameter disc to do this at 10,500RPM. All I need now is to find someone with a large lathe who can turn a disc at the right size with the right hole in the center. Which is easier said than done, since it needs to be balanced nicely, as well as having a system to accelarate the balls smoothly, something like a set of rails, or some other way to impart momentum.

[KemiRockarFett]

According to this new system I did some calculations. If every ball fired from the DREAD-system has got an Velocity of 2500 m/s, there kinetic energy will be
2500^2 * 4 *10-3/2 = 12500 J, assumed that the ball weights 4 g. That energy will be taken from the rotating desk. Maybee I read wrong but 120 000 fired balls per minut means that the input effect will be 12500*2000 = 25 MW !!, 2000 is obtained by dividing 120 000 with 60.

So thats only realistic if some boat engine or nuclear plant is nearby as an power source.

A more realistic calculation will be if the balls are fired with an velocity of 800 m/s and rounds per minute are "only" 60 000 per minute, meaning 1000 rounds per second.
Than the effect needed will be:

4*10^-3 * 800^2/2 *1000 = 1280 kW. That is 1706 hk input power !
It would be interesting to see the system on a chopper, hehe it will go down than they fire the DREAD :)

[KemiRockarFett]

According to this new system I did some calculations. If every ball fired from the DREAD-system has got an Velocity of 2500 m/s, there kinetic energy will be
2500^2 * 4 *10-3/2 = 12500 J, assumed that the ball weights 4 g. That energy will be taken from the rotating desk. Maybee I read wrong but 120 000 fired balls per minut means that the input effect will be 12500*2000 = 25 MW !!, 2000 is obtained by dividing 120 000 with 60.

So thats only realistic if some boat engine or nuclear plant is nearby as an power source.

A more realistic calculation will be if the balls are fired with an velocity of 800 m/s and rounds per minute are "only" 60 000 per minute, meaning 1000 rounds per second.
Than the effect needed will be:

4*10^-3 * 800^2/2 *1000 = 1280 kW. That is 1706 hk input power !
It would be interesting to see the system on a chopper, hehe it will go down than they fire the DREAD :)

[Jacks Complete]

On a chopper, the torque from a single disc would be hell for the last few moments of the pilots life!

I agree with the stupidity of some of the calculations. Assume a good modern car engine running with diesel, and you could perhaps tap off 100 to 150 HP worth of energy into electric to power this thing. 150HP translates to 111kW, which is still plenty short of the power requirements. 1706 HP is just way too much.

Still, the US military are likely to keep going with it. It will get there slowly. And takes an age to spin up and down.

My experiments with this type of thing have shown me that the mass that you throw has to be very small compared to the mass you are spinning, otherwise the velocity of the next shot is too low, and the bullet drops low. The next one drops even lower, etc. It gets worse, too, because the energy in the disc is not linearly proportional to the edge speed, so the more shots you fire, the more rapidly the edge speed drops.

The larger the mass of the disc, however, the longer the system takes to switch from lethal to non-lethal, or to power up and down in the first place.

So, the more accurate and lethal you make it, the longer it takes to be useable. I still reckon it will be a giant scattergun for point defense... And then you might as well just use compressed air! (See the thread on full auto BB guns for details of that)

[Jacks Complete]

On a chopper, the torque from a single disc would be hell for the last few moments of the pilots life!

I agree with the stupidity of some of the calculations. Assume a good modern car engine running with diesel, and you could perhaps tap off 100 to 150 HP worth of energy into electric to power this thing. 150HP translates to 111kW, which is still plenty short of the power requirements. 1706 HP is just way too much.

Still, the US military are likely to keep going with it. It will get there slowly. And takes an age to spin up and down.

My experiments with this type of thing have shown me that the mass that you throw has to be very small compared to the mass you are spinning, otherwise the velocity of the next shot is too low, and the bullet drops low. The next one drops even lower, etc. It gets worse, too, because the energy in the disc is not linearly proportional to the edge speed, so the more shots you fire, the more rapidly the edge speed drops.

The larger the mass of the disc, however, the longer the system takes to switch from lethal to non-lethal, or to power up and down in the first place.

So, the more accurate and lethal you make it, the longer it takes to be useable. I still reckon it will be a giant scattergun for point defense... And then you might as well just use compressed air! (See the thread on full auto BB guns for details of that)

[tomu]

Hi Jack's,

I remeber vaguely that an American built such a centrifugal gun with an e-motor during the first WW and wanted it to be adoptetd by the Army. There is a picture of it and a short text about it in the book 'Hatcher's Notebook' which unfortunately I just couldn't find in my mess.

[tomu]

Hi Jack's,

I remeber vaguely that an American built such a centrifugal gun with an e-motor during the first WW and wanted it to be adoptetd by the Army. There is a picture of it and a short text about it in the book 'Hatcher's Notebook' which unfortunately I just couldn't find in my mess.