Melamine Salts

[simply RED]

http://www.chemexper.com/chemicals/supplier/cas/108-78-1.html

This is the formula of melamine, an industrial product used to make plastics.
It could be possible to make salts of it (-NH2 basic properties) (nitrate or perchlorate) which will be explosive.

Regarding the density of melamine :
http://www.chemicalland21.com/arokorhi/industrialchem/organic/MELAMINE.htm

which is 1,57g/cc - these salts could be dense and powerful explosives.
Anyway, I was unable to find any information about the basic properties of the molecule and the salts it could form.
The stechiometry of the salts is an interesting point, as it may react only with one or two of its amino groups - like urea does - only with one NH2 group.

[simply RED]

http://www.chemexper.com/chemicals/supplier/cas/108-78-1.html

This is the formula of melamine, an industrial product used to make plastics.
It could be possible to make salts of it (-NH2 basic properties) (nitrate or perchlorate) which will be explosive.

Regarding the density of melamine :
http://www.chemicalland21.com/arokorhi/industrialchem/organic/MELAMINE.htm

which is 1,57g/cc - these salts could be dense and powerful explosives.
Anyway, I was unable to find any information about the basic properties of the molecule and the salts it could form.
The stechiometry of the salts is an interesting point, as it may react only with one or two of its amino groups - like urea does - only with one NH2 group.

[FUTI]

Interesting idea, but what about oxygen balance of those salts? I haven't check that yet but I have a hinch that it isn't to good for an explosive substance, maybe propelant is better idea.

[FUTI]

Interesting idea, but what about oxygen balance of those salts? I haven't check that yet but I have a hinch that it isn't to good for an explosive substance, maybe propelant is better idea.

[hereno]

OB's would be:

mononitrate = -54.98%
dinitrate = -25.38%
trinitrate = -7.61%

Comparatively

Urea nitrate = -6.5%
Ethylenediamine dinitrate = -25.78%
Hexamine dinitrate = -78.1

"Melamine dinitrate" is listed in Fedoroff, but its actually refering to a dinitramine derived from nitration of melamine. Suprizingly its properties are quite poor, less then TNT, and less sensitive.

[hereno]

OB's would be:

mononitrate = -54.98%
dinitrate = -25.38%
trinitrate = -7.61%

Comparatively

Urea nitrate = -6.5%
Ethylenediamine dinitrate = -25.78%
Hexamine dinitrate = -78.1

"Melamine dinitrate" is listed in Fedoroff, but its actually refering to a dinitramine derived from nitration of melamine. Suprizingly its properties are quite poor, less then TNT, and less sensitive.

[simply RED]

For diperchlorate :

C3H8N6 Cl2O8 = 2HCl + 3H2O + CO + 2CO2 + 3N2

sounds ok...

[simply RED]

For diperchlorate :

C3H8N6 Cl2O8 = 2HCl + 3H2O + CO + 2CO2 + 3N2

sounds ok...

[me234]

The thing that stands out with this compound is that there are relatively few reducing groups, like C-H bonds, e.g. there aren't any methlyene/methyl groups to react with the oxygen carried by the nitrate/ perchlorate. So even if you can get a perfect OB, there is still relatively little energy being given off by the di/trinitrate of melamine: simply because, per weight, there is little in the way of energy producing reactions during detonation.
Energy producing reactions are assumed to include the following:
N-O bonds --> 0.5N2 + 0.5O2 + Energy
C + O2 --> CO2 + Energy
2H2 +O2 --> 2H2O + Energy

Please let me know if I've missed anything.

P.S. The ring structure doesn't look strained, so a lot of the energy liberated might go to breaking up the next molecule.

[me234]

The thing that stands out with this compound is that there are relatively few reducing groups, like C-H bonds, e.g. there aren't any methlyene/methyl groups to react with the oxygen carried by the nitrate/ perchlorate. So even if you can get a perfect OB, there is still relatively little energy being given off by the di/trinitrate of melamine: simply because, per weight, there is little in the way of energy producing reactions during detonation.
Energy producing reactions are assumed to include the following:
N-O bonds --> 0.5N2 + 0.5O2 + Energy
C + O2 --> CO2 + Energy
2H2 +O2 --> 2H2O + Energy

Please let me know if I've missed anything.

P.S. The ring structure doesn't look strained, so a lot of the energy liberated might go to breaking up the next molecule.

[simply RED]

Triaminotrinitrobenzene has the same redox parameters and its still a powerful explosive.
Anyway you are right, about 4 MJ/kg could be expected from the diperchlorate.
But the volume of gasses per weight is going to be higher than TNT. And density won't be bad...
Which is not bad for one reaction explosive (if it exists)...

[simply RED]

Triaminotrinitrobenzene has the same redox parameters and its still a powerful explosive.
Anyway you are right, about 4 MJ/kg could be expected from the diperchlorate.
But the volume of gasses per weight is going to be higher than TNT. And density won't be bad...
Which is not bad for one reaction explosive (if it exists)...

[FUTI]

If it has better stability then ammonium-perchlorate I guess that I might try to make it since that could make damn good propelant the way I see it. Imagine "one component" buster rocket:) made by simple molding of explosive plastic mass...but I think thats to good to be true and posible.

[FUTI]

If it has better stability then ammonium-perchlorate I guess that I might try to make it since that could make damn good propelant the way I see it. Imagine "one component" buster rocket:) made by simple molding of explosive plastic mass...but I think thats to good to be true and posible.

[simply RED]

Go try!
Succesfull method maybe direct reaction to salt if you have perchloric acid.
melamine + 2 HClO4 = melamine diperchlorate

Dealing with NH4ClO4 and HCl maybe problem when the solubility of melamine and its salt is unknown.

Stechiometry maybe studied with titration.

melamine (X)perchlorate + KOH = melamine + H2O + KClO4

[simply RED]

Go try!
Succesfull method maybe direct reaction to salt if you have perchloric acid.
melamine + 2 HClO4 = melamine diperchlorate

Dealing with NH4ClO4 and HCl maybe problem when the solubility of melamine and its salt is unknown.

Stechiometry maybe studied with titration.

melamine (X)perchlorate + KOH = melamine + H2O + KClO4

[me234]

Well, TATB does have more reducing groups per molecule than melamine salts would have, but admittedly, there are still relatively few per molecule, and yet TATB is powerful as you say.
OK, so maybe melamine dinitrate etc. would not have too great a vod, and maybe it would not have such a great energy of detonation. But, assuming the density to be pretty decent (i.e. upwards of 1.57 g/ml) and taking into account the large amount of detonation gases, we should have something that, while not too brisant, should be fairly powerful.
I reckon that if you could stick on a third nitrate group to help with the OB to develop full energy and power, maybe melamine trinitrate could be used in similar application to TNT. So the diperchlorate should give similar OB to the trinitrate (if it exists).
Crap, now comes the usual stumbling block when it comes to any decent idea to be tried out...
anyone got some just laying about?
I shall look around today.

[me234]

Well, TATB does have more reducing groups per molecule than melamine salts would have, but admittedly, there are still relatively few per molecule, and yet TATB is powerful as you say.
OK, so maybe melamine dinitrate etc. would not have too great a vod, and maybe it would not have such a great energy of detonation. But, assuming the density to be pretty decent (i.e. upwards of 1.57 g/ml) and taking into account the large amount of detonation gases, we should have something that, while not too brisant, should be fairly powerful.
I reckon that if you could stick on a third nitrate group to help with the OB to develop full energy and power, maybe melamine trinitrate could be used in similar application to TNT. So the diperchlorate should give similar OB to the trinitrate (if it exists).
Crap, now comes the usual stumbling block when it comes to any decent idea to be tried out...
anyone got some just laying about?
I shall look around today.

[FUTI]

Well I would try that but I have a nasty feel that is not wise... I didn't work with perchloric acid so far and what I read about it isn't good when it comes to mixing with organic materials. Any advice from forum members what and where to look?

[FUTI]

Well I would try that but I have a nasty feel that is not wise... I didn't work with perchloric acid so far and what I read about it isn't good when it comes to mixing with organic materials. Any advice from forum members what and where to look?

[simply RED]

Mix SLOWLY ! Use Diluted solutions, with good Cooling. Stirr well the mix and try first with Small quantities. Always add the HClO4 to the organic base.

Well, I've tried NH4ClO4 with 20% HClO4 and 20% NH3 - it is not organic base obviously....
There should not be problem.

[simply RED]

Mix SLOWLY ! Use Diluted solutions, with good Cooling. Stirr well the mix and try first with Small quantities. Always add the HClO4 to the organic base.

Well, I've tried NH4ClO4 with 20% HClO4 and 20% NH3 - it is not organic base obviously....
There should not be problem.

[FUTI]

I didn't find melamine solubility in water. I hope that protonation of the compound don't de facto increase it's solubility in water instead of salt precipitation. But doesn't alter my idea to much. What I had in mind is melamine plastic. So precursor melamine (triamino-s-triazine) mixed with two equivalents of acid and one equivalent of formaldehyde could do a job. I guess that best way is mix triazine and formaldehyde and slowly add acid with good mixing because acid start polymerization. Problem is droping polymer out of solution and unequal protonation of the same...maybe I should leave it in solution over the night. Help anyone? Maybe I should add formaldehyde in portions too?
Since I don't have triazine now...I could try some kitchenware plastic resine of melamine type just for fun, to see can it react with nitric acid and what properties will that have. I'll let you know.

[FUTI]

I didn't find melamine solubility in water. I hope that protonation of the compound don't de facto increase it's solubility in water instead of salt precipitation. But doesn't alter my idea to much. What I had in mind is melamine plastic. So precursor melamine (triamino-s-triazine) mixed with two equivalents of acid and one equivalent of formaldehyde could do a job. I guess that best way is mix triazine and formaldehyde and slowly add acid with good mixing because acid start polymerization. Problem is droping polymer out of solution and unequal protonation of the same...maybe I should leave it in solution over the night. Help anyone? Maybe I should add formaldehyde in portions too?
Since I don't have triazine now...I could try some kitchenware plastic resine of melamine type just for fun, to see can it react with nitric acid and what properties will that have. I'll let you know.