Big Bang in London

[tomu]

Seems that Osama and friends are having a ball in London.

Sky News and other News source are telling of huge clouds of black smoke after the explosions but no talk about a fire, that sounds as oxygen-deficient explosives or blasting agents were used, maybe permissibles like in Spain.

Sounds like the sandniggers didn't do it right, fire in a subway tunnel would have killed much more than blast or shrapnell.

[tomu]

Seems that Osama and friends are having a ball in London.

Sky News and other News source are telling of huge clouds of black smoke after the explosions but no talk about a fire, that sounds as oxygen-deficient explosives or blasting agents were used, maybe permissibles like in Spain.

Sounds like the sandniggers didn't do it right, fire in a subway tunnel would have killed much more than blast or shrapnell.

[Jacks Complete]

Well, thanks for that. I'm still trying to trace a few people who may well be in shit right now.

Technically, the terrorists did it quite nicely, a well co-ordinated strike against multiple targets. Doesn't mean I approve of what they have done, though. Fire would be near impossible in a tube station these days. Automatic systems abound, there is little flamable, they keep a tight rein on that sort of thing since the last major fire. A dozen petrol bombs would do little at most stations.

At least the terrorists didn't use a chemical weapon. Hope there is no biological component to this, either.

I blame that fuckwit PM of ours for making us a target and deciding that GWB should be slavishly followed. God knows why... but I don't belive in God.

[Jacks Complete]

Well, thanks for that. I'm still trying to trace a few people who may well be in shit right now.

Technically, the terrorists did it quite nicely, a well co-ordinated strike against multiple targets. Doesn't mean I approve of what they have done, though. Fire would be near impossible in a tube station these days. Automatic systems abound, there is little flamable, they keep a tight rein on that sort of thing since the last major fire. A dozen petrol bombs would do little at most stations.

At least the terrorists didn't use a chemical weapon. Hope there is no biological component to this, either.

I blame that fuckwit PM of ours for making us a target and deciding that GWB should be slavishly followed. God knows why... but I don't belive in God.

[FUTI]

Actually I think that patronizing the islamic fundamentalist for a short term cause by western countries cause them more trouble then they ever expected. How to trap an overgrown imaginary lion. It is easy to counter a treat from an other country since you know the enemy and its face and house number...but how to fight an enemy slippery as air, lives nowhere, change place, tactics, weapons, target anything (mostly civilians) since conventions of war doesn't obligate him to do the same as country in military conflict and they cause a damage much bigger then their real strength.

[FUTI]

Actually I think that patronizing the islamic fundamentalist for a short term cause by western countries cause them more trouble then they ever expected. How to trap an overgrown imaginary lion. It is easy to counter a treat from an other country since you know the enemy and its face and house number...but how to fight an enemy slippery as air, lives nowhere, change place, tactics, weapons, target anything (mostly civilians) since conventions of war doesn't obligate him to do the same as country in military conflict and they cause a damage much bigger then their real strength.

[TreverSlyFox]

Islam has ONE goal. Everyone in the world is either a Muslim or DEAD! Period! There is no such thing as Peace with Islam. If you aren't a target now you will be in the near future.

It doesn't have anything to do with GWB or TB or anyone else, if your an Infidel (a Non-muslim) your an enemy, period. You can't make peace with Islam because a Peace Treaty or a Truce with an Infidel is Non-binding on a Muslim and are only used by Islam until they have the strength to kill you. You only have three choices according to the Koran:

1. Become a Muslim.
2. Pay taxes to Islam and be treated as a slave.
3. Be killed as an Infidel.

[TreverSlyFox]

Islam has ONE goal. Everyone in the world is either a Muslim or DEAD! Period! There is no such thing as Peace with Islam. If you aren't a target now you will be in the near future.

It doesn't have anything to do with GWB or TB or anyone else, if your an Infidel (a Non-muslim) your an enemy, period. You can't make peace with Islam because a Peace Treaty or a Truce with an Infidel is Non-binding on a Muslim and are only used by Islam until they have the strength to kill you. You only have three choices according to the Koran:

1. Become a Muslim.
2. Pay taxes to Islam and be treated as a slave.
3. Be killed as an Infidel.

[Jacks Complete]

or 4. Help support the less radical elements to become stronger, and calm them down like that.


According to one of my sources in the city, a suicide bomber was shot at Canary Wharf. One bus went bang, and three train bombs, one at a station, and two in transit.

Quite possible that someone screwed up, and there should have been a few dozen martyrs today, but then again, you don't buy martyrs by the dozen in the UK.

Possible that the security services managed to get in to the plot somehow and changed the timers to go off at 8am rather than 4pm or something, so the bombers were killed on-route, having left from a central location 20 minutes earlier than previously planed. Wild speculation there, however, based solely on the weird pattern of the bombs.

Everyone I know is accounted for, FWIW.

[Jacks Complete]

or 4. Help support the less radical elements to become stronger, and calm them down like that.


According to one of my sources in the city, a suicide bomber was shot at Canary Wharf. One bus went bang, and three train bombs, one at a station, and two in transit.

Quite possible that someone screwed up, and there should have been a few dozen martyrs today, but then again, you don't buy martyrs by the dozen in the UK.

Possible that the security services managed to get in to the plot somehow and changed the timers to go off at 8am rather than 4pm or something, so the bombers were killed on-route, having left from a central location 20 minutes earlier than previously planed. Wild speculation there, however, based solely on the weird pattern of the bombs.

Everyone I know is accounted for, FWIW.

[FUTI]

Problem that Islam has now is that it entered in the same stage of development as our religion had once upon a time that started something called Crusaders quest to Jerusalem.

It is actually a question can we help them to overcome that phase in development as peacefully as posible or just beat them over the mouth like bad tempered teenage boy before they make some serious damage (I mean nowdays people have a very nasty means of destruction like nukes so we can't wait someone who can in near future hold finger over that button to come to its sense and make peace to its neighbours).

Hinduism for example don't have strong warrior line inside religion I guess because of its mature stage of development.

What number of bombs they activated? Jack's Complete said 4 in total. Media here are mentioning their number as 6. Traffic lines that are broken in police statement I saw on TV indicate those bombs were activated in the very near center of London so I think they executed that action as planed, any weird pattern is what you Jack as exerienced man saw because you obviously know London and Londoners better then rest of us, but who said the terrorist knows that too, they estimated a situation from distance maybe just looking travel and financial magazines and choose locations get inside the country pack the bombs and buy one-way-ticket-to-"their Heaven". People toll is rising a little from time to time. Keep us informed, as from my experience "mouth to ears" informations are better then goverment hushed media coverage of the event like this one.

[FUTI]

Problem that Islam has now is that it entered in the same stage of development as our religion had once upon a time that started something called Crusaders quest to Jerusalem.

It is actually a question can we help them to overcome that phase in development as peacefully as posible or just beat them over the mouth like bad tempered teenage boy before they make some serious damage (I mean nowdays people have a very nasty means of destruction like nukes so we can't wait someone who can in near future hold finger over that button to come to its sense and make peace to its neighbours).

Hinduism for example don't have strong warrior line inside religion I guess because of its mature stage of development.

What number of bombs they activated? Jack's Complete said 4 in total. Media here are mentioning their number as 6. Traffic lines that are broken in police statement I saw on TV indicate those bombs were activated in the very near center of London so I think they executed that action as planed, any weird pattern is what you Jack as exerienced man saw because you obviously know London and Londoners better then rest of us, but who said the terrorist knows that too, they estimated a situation from distance maybe just looking travel and financial magazines and choose locations get inside the country pack the bombs and buy one-way-ticket-to-"their Heaven". People toll is rising a little from time to time. Keep us informed, as from my experience "mouth to ears" informations are better then goverment hushed media coverage of the event like this one.

[tomu]

I agree that they learned a lot from the 1987 underground fire at King's Cross station. But the trains are still vulnerable and have a look at the bus they blew up, no fire.

A well coordinated attack, yes, multiple targets, yes too, but if those camel jockeys had some brains they could have inflicted much more and serious damage.

And it's because they lack those brains they will not use chemical or biological, let alone nuclear, agents. They couldn't make them or otherwise get their hands on those goodies. They wouldn't know how to use the stuff, anyway.

If I remember correctly they declared holy war on us westerners, maybe it's time to show them that fighting a war is not a one way street.

[tomu]

I agree that they learned a lot from the 1987 underground fire at King's Cross station. But the trains are still vulnerable and have a look at the bus they blew up, no fire.

A well coordinated attack, yes, multiple targets, yes too, but if those camel jockeys had some brains they could have inflicted much more and serious damage.

And it's because they lack those brains they will not use chemical or biological, let alone nuclear, agents. They couldn't make them or otherwise get their hands on those goodies. They wouldn't know how to use the stuff, anyway.

If I remember correctly they declared holy war on us westerners, maybe it's time to show them that fighting a war is not a one way street.

[Jacks Complete]

tomu, no offence, but I think they are trying to show US that fighting a war isn't a one way street!

After all, aren't we the ones occupying certain countries for long periods in the name of freedom?

For example, those Delta force guys who got stuffed up in Afghanistan. Somehow, these visitors were the valiant soliders, while the guys who lived there who were shooting at them were portrayed by the American media as the terrorists/invaders!

As for the UK attacks, I'm not better informed than others. Seems the shooting didn't happen, so perhaps someone emailed a fake story. Will be interesting to see if it did happen or not, though I got (from someone else) word of a big police event near Canary Wharf, so it just might still be true.

Current death toll is 38. Two on the bus, one in hospital, and the rest on the trains. About 700 injured.

[Jacks Complete]

tomu, no offence, but I think they are trying to show US that fighting a war isn't a one way street!

After all, aren't we the ones occupying certain countries for long periods in the name of freedom?

For example, those Delta force guys who got stuffed up in Afghanistan. Somehow, these visitors were the valiant soliders, while the guys who lived there who were shooting at them were portrayed by the American media as the terrorists/invaders!

As for the UK attacks, I'm not better informed than others. Seems the shooting didn't happen, so perhaps someone emailed a fake story. Will be interesting to see if it did happen or not, though I got (from someone else) word of a big police event near Canary Wharf, so it just might still be true.

Current death toll is 38. Two on the bus, one in hospital, and the rest on the trains. About 700 injured.

[zeocrash]

According to one of my sources in the city, a suicide bomber was shot at Canary Wharf.
i heard this too. my boss's son works in canary wharf and he confirms this, though i've not found this in the news anywhere

[zeocrash]

According to one of my sources in the city, a suicide bomber was shot at Canary Wharf.
i heard this too. my boss's son works in canary wharf and he confirms this, though i've not found this in the news anywhere

[me234]

But you guys gotta admit 38 people with 4 bombs, not too shabby considering past body counts. I mean come on, detonating car loads of a couple hundred Kgs of TNT or such and 4 or 5 dead. Stupid shit like that ticks me off.
Tomu, could you imagine if those same guys with a backpack full of comp B or whatever took that backpack into a crowded office building as everyone's leaving for lunch. Now that may just inflict a decent body-count : explosive-weight ratio.
Hey, what do you reckon would be the best place? I'm thinking the building thing; or maybe even take the shit they were going to stuff into a couple backpacks, and find some architectural diagrams, maybe drop a small building.

[me234]

But you guys gotta admit 38 people with 4 bombs, not too shabby considering past body counts. I mean come on, detonating car loads of a couple hundred Kgs of TNT or such and 4 or 5 dead. Stupid shit like that ticks me off.
Tomu, could you imagine if those same guys with a backpack full of comp B or whatever took that backpack into a crowded office building as everyone's leaving for lunch. Now that may just inflict a decent body-count : explosive-weight ratio.
Hey, what do you reckon would be the best place? I'm thinking the building thing; or maybe even take the shit they were going to stuff into a couple backpacks, and find some architectural diagrams, maybe drop a small building.

[akinrog]

I believe shithead radicals have learnt some lessons from their (previous) massive attacks on the civilians, which triggered massive attacks by Western Countries on Muslim countries' civilian population. :D

First of all, I don't think they intend to make a real disaster over there. If they had intended then they simply would (just remember those bombing campaigns in Istanbul employing car bombs causing several hundred causalties and Madrid, etc.).

The main purpose seems to be creating some terror to give a message to British people.

[akinrog]

I believe shithead radicals have learnt some lessons from their (previous) massive attacks on the civilians, which triggered massive attacks by Western Countries on Muslim countries' civilian population. :D

First of all, I don't think they intend to make a real disaster over there. If they had intended then they simply would (just remember those bombing campaigns in Istanbul employing car bombs causing several hundred causalties and Madrid, etc.).

The main purpose seems to be creating some terror to give a message to British people.

[Chris The Great]

Definately just to give us some terror and show us that they can still do stuff. It's been kinda quiet for the past few years, they've got to keep us in fear, so the government can take away our freedom and do their job for them.

I only watched a bit about it on the news, and the first thing that popped into my head was "if those subway bombs had a chemical weapon...."
We'd be looking at casualties in the hundreds, as the people were trapped in the trains after the explosions. Sometimes a little stupidity is a good thing.

[Chris The Great]

Definately just to give us some terror and show us that they can still do stuff. It's been kinda quiet for the past few years, they've got to keep us in fear, so the government can take away our freedom and do their job for them.

I only watched a bit about it on the news, and the first thing that popped into my head was "if those subway bombs had a chemical weapon...."
We'd be looking at casualties in the hundreds, as the people were trapped in the trains after the explosions. Sometimes a little stupidity is a good thing.

[FUTI]

I just felt urge to discuss about possibilities of terrorist group start using some form of WMD.

Rare usage of WMD is because of experience in WWI, no country will use it against the country that could strike back in the same manner (yes Italy and Japan used CW in WWII but against whom...could Etiopia or China of that time answer in apropriate way?). But whom would you strike if terrorist drop WMD spiced bomb in your town?

If you look through the Forum it is not that hard to make simple device (poor in effect if judged by military use against army, but for tube attack sufficiently effective).

Chemicals are hard to find and they are well controled, but device is not hard to make. But I wouldn't exclude the suicide attack with explosive on some chemical factory, torn-up reactor can spill a hell into air. (I don't think that factory in France goes up sky-high due to an human error, but that could be made worse if some other facilities were targeted)

Biological weapon is hard to produce in usable form (although once when you find the way how... production price is bag of pop-corn), but the device for dispersing the agent is complicated. For the biobomb the way of finding the source if it isn't blast but airborn mist and control of exposed and tamming the disease maybe quite apealing for terorist to research it, just for the fun of looking us sweating.

If we are going to set a little poll what kind of WMD will terorist weaponise first...I could put a couple euro for a dirty bomb. After all western countries for decades are "exporting" their waste from nuclear plants in Africa and other third world countries (where majority of muslim population lives btw). IIRC there were some text floating around the net with evidence that Germany tested some kind of dirty bomb in WWII, but didn't finish that project and use it. That should be sufficient to explain that those are achievable with more then 50 years old technology. Only thing they have to solve is how to smugle radiological material in UK or Europe. Since one submarine was found that narco-cartel build to maintain its smugling ops in USA few years ago, I wouldn't be suprised if terorist come to that idea. It wouldn't make a devastating effect like A-bomb, but detonated in urban area could make it almost inhabitable for decades. I can't imagine radiation detectors mounted in every public building to prevent those asses come inside loaded with bombs screeming "Thanks to God! God is great!".

As far as the building scenario is concerned...terorist did that in Russia (demolition of civilian building though, and flame in television tower)...but as far as western media is concerned they were then "freedom fighters", after the 9/11 they became "rebelion forces" (when Russian security played CIA tapes obtained by recording the lines of comunications of Chechenian "freedom fighters" in which it was clear that they know about it and helped organisation of 9/11). So far UK didn't wan't to give some Chechenians Russians wanted for terorism (not to mention those Russians they wanted for financial criminal)...we'll see now what will be. Peasents in my country say "if the stable of the neighboroughs is burning and you are doing nothing to stop it...flame will turn and burn yours too". I wonder when they will stop calculating with usage of words. If such activity would be marked as terroristic in UK, why wouldn't they accept the same word for the actions done against Russian or any other nation.

Anyway I think what ever the turn of events come up it will be accounted with the money of tax-paying people and won't even cause a high-pressure in PM or some other ID*ot responsible for draging this part of the world into this mess. They will saw this as calculated risk (or maybe an insurance agencies start accounting that factor too) as number of casualties with deadly result can probably be compared with a day traffic toll in the wide London area.

[FUTI]

I just felt urge to discuss about possibilities of terrorist group start using some form of WMD.

Rare usage of WMD is because of experience in WWI, no country will use it against the country that could strike back in the same manner (yes Italy and Japan used CW in WWII but against whom...could Etiopia or China of that time answer in apropriate way?). But whom would you strike if terrorist drop WMD spiced bomb in your town?

If you look through the Forum it is not that hard to make simple device (poor in effect if judged by military use against army, but for tube attack sufficiently effective).

Chemicals are hard to find and they are well controled, but device is not hard to make. But I wouldn't exclude the suicide attack with explosive on some chemical factory, torn-up reactor can spill a hell into air. (I don't think that factory in France goes up sky-high due to an human error, but that could be made worse if some other facilities were targeted)

Biological weapon is hard to produce in usable form (although once when you find the way how... production price is bag of pop-corn), but the device for dispersing the agent is complicated. For the biobomb the way of finding the source if it isn't blast but airborn mist and control of exposed and tamming the disease maybe quite apealing for terorist to research it, just for the fun of looking us sweating.

If we are going to set a little poll what kind of WMD will terorist weaponise first...I could put a couple euro for a dirty bomb. After all western countries for decades are "exporting" their waste from nuclear plants in Africa and other third world countries (where majority of muslim population lives btw). IIRC there were some text floating around the net with evidence that Germany tested some kind of dirty bomb in WWII, but didn't finish that project and use it. That should be sufficient to explain that those are achievable with more then 50 years old technology. Only thing they have to solve is how to smugle radiological material in UK or Europe. Since one submarine was found that narco-cartel build to maintain its smugling ops in USA few years ago, I wouldn't be suprised if terorist come to that idea. It wouldn't make a devastating effect like A-bomb, but detonated in urban area could make it almost inhabitable for decades. I can't imagine radiation detectors mounted in every public building to prevent those asses come inside loaded with bombs screeming "Thanks to God! God is great!".

As far as the building scenario is concerned...terorist did that in Russia (demolition of civilian building though, and flame in television tower)...but as far as western media is concerned they were then "freedom fighters", after the 9/11 they became "rebelion forces" (when Russian security played CIA tapes obtained by recording the lines of comunications of Chechenian "freedom fighters" in which it was clear that they know about it and helped organisation of 9/11). So far UK didn't wan't to give some Chechenians Russians wanted for terorism (not to mention those Russians they wanted for financial criminal)...we'll see now what will be. Peasents in my country say "if the stable of the neighboroughs is burning and you are doing nothing to stop it...flame will turn and burn yours too". I wonder when they will stop calculating with usage of words. If such activity would be marked as terroristic in UK, why wouldn't they accept the same word for the actions done against Russian or any other nation.

Anyway I think what ever the turn of events come up it will be accounted with the money of tax-paying people and won't even cause a high-pressure in PM or some other ID*ot responsible for draging this part of the world into this mess. They will saw this as calculated risk (or maybe an insurance agencies start accounting that factor too) as number of casualties with deadly result can probably be compared with a day traffic toll in the wide London area.

[akinrog]

If such activity would be marked as terroristic in UK, why wouldn't they accept the same word for the actions done against Russian or any other nation.

Actually this is a propaganda game perfectly played by Western governments. And unfortunately their citizens easily fall for that bait. Any terrorist organization who is friendly with US / Britain is freedom fighters and any terrorist organization who is enemy to the same, are terrorists. They always warped and shall warp the material thruths so their fat assed capitalist bosses (who are mostly members of this or that freemason organization) may easily and covertly plunder the world.

As an example of warping the material truth, let's take the example of Dresden. USAF/RAF bombed Dresden and a few old German cities to create firestorms for the purpose of breaking resistance of the civilian population.
I have recently downloaded Modern Marvels - Deadliest Weapons wherein there is a section dedicated to incendiary bombs. The narrator was telling USAF/RAF bombed Dresden to create firestorms and labeled this action as morale bombing. But one specialist appearing in the documentary was exactly saying that "morale bombing is actually a cosmetic name for massacre." This last sentence is summarizing how western propaganda machine warps the material truths. I mean what they did is no different than Nazis killing people in concentration camps and even worse than that since this massacre was indiscriminate.

In my opinion, after the war the (Allies) commanders / soldiers and any government officials who were involved in arrangement of morale bombing must be tried for the crimes against humanity just like those nazis were tried in Nuernberg.

In the documentary it is clearly stated that although exact number is not known, several thousand civilians had been burnt to death by our beloved big brother's incendiary bombs in Germany.

In the same part of the documentary it is also stated that while use of A-bomb over Japan is continuously stressed, it is never stressed that the Heroic (???) US Army used several incendiary attacks to several Japanese cities (which constists of wooden cottage like buildings) killing at least two hundred thousand civilians. Since US Army simply could not manage to make Japaneses bow before them they started killing civilians in a cowardly frenzy (just like they are doing now in Iraq).

The US led media and their lackey (mainly UK and continental Europe based ones) shall simply follow the example of US by parroting the very statements of the propaganda machine of US government (actually this propaganda is created by Skull and Bones -like fat assed freemasons and implemented by their puppets like Dubya and Blair).

As for the double standard of Western governments (regarding definition of terrorism / terrorists), once upon a time I wrote a condemnation letter to van Haugen regarding my country's rights for self defense against the Kurdish terrorist activities and related to the capture of their leader who is responsible for killing a few ten thousand civilians during a time span of more than twenty years (which cost more than a hundred billion dollars for my country).

I directed that letter to that fag for simple reason that he was calling for the release of bloody terrorist leader but was silent about US's invasion of and bombing civilians in Iraq. I simply said him with a respectful language that "if a few civilian were to be slightly wounded in a terrorist attack in your country you will start yelling as if somebody is driving a stake into your heart. But my country sustains this nightmare for several decades, etc. etc. etc. You are acting in a hypocritical manner...."

In addition after watching several documentaries I really understand why Britain and US are / were so concerned about WMDs and terrorists' possible acquisition of such WMDs. And other more democratic and less global oppressor western countries are not so. The reason is so simple. The Britain (especially in past) and US (currently) committed so many crimes against humanity, if somehow they lose the control of the world, they may drown in the very shit they created.

I shall take the risk of revealing my origins and give you an example : Although my country is very developed, secular and democratical (with respect to those theocratical Moslem countries), a few months ago there was a massive surge of calumnial attacks on US media against my country. As result of this I started lobbying and initiated a campaign of chain letters towards all US based media institutions. (The US Media was claiming that my country is very anti-American (to a certain extent true but not against American people but against American Government) and is secretly supporting Moslem shithead radicals (which is a gross lie)).

Content of the chain letter was very simple. "There is a principle called reciprocality in international law, which can be defined as "you rub my back I rub your back principle" in the language of the man in the street. While my country, as a NATO member is doing almost everything (even those illegitimate ones) our big brother (US) requested (ordered), US government simply ignores and / or refuses even the smallest legitimate requests my country's government makes from the US government. This is called bitching in colloqual language.

The legitimate request my country was making was very simple. There is a Kurdish terrorist organization which (thanks to harboring, payrolling, support by the Hypocritical Western governments) creates troubles for more than twenty years. And thanks to Dubya the Oil Mugger's efforts to establish a puppet government in Iraq, Kurds in Iraq acquired the power in Iraq despite they are minority and explicitly harboring this Kurdish terrorist organization which infiltrates into my country and doing terrorist actions such as killing sabotaging, etc.

My country, being a neighbor of Iraq and strategic partner (or a bitch) of US legitimately requested the US to capture or at least disband these terrorist organization. But US government simply bitches and either ignores or refuses acting against this terrorist organization while she insolently expect us to be loyal to US government and continue acting as instructed.

As a result while western world (governments and camarilla / cabal behind them) shall continue declaring terrorists acting against any of their opponent /rivals as freedom fighter, they shall simply call any terrorist acting against them as terrorist.

But as the final word, any one who plays with fire shall eventually have a few burns themselves. Regards.

[akinrog]

If such activity would be marked as terroristic in UK, why wouldn't they accept the same word for the actions done against Russian or any other nation.

Actually this is a propaganda game perfectly played by Western governments. And unfortunately their citizens easily fall for that bait. Any terrorist organization who is friendly with US / Britain is freedom fighters and any terrorist organization who is enemy to the same, are terrorists. They always warped and shall warp the material thruths so their fat assed capitalist bosses (who are mostly members of this or that freemason organization) may easily and covertly plunder the world.

As an example of warping the material truth, let's take the example of Dresden. USAF/RAF bombed Dresden and a few old German cities to create firestorms for the purpose of breaking resistance of the civilian population.
I have recently downloaded Modern Marvels - Deadliest Weapons wherein there is a section dedicated to incendiary bombs. The narrator was telling USAF/RAF bombed Dresden to create firestorms and labeled this action as morale bombing. But one specialist appearing in the documentary was exactly saying that "morale bombing is actually a cosmetic name for massacre." This last sentence is summarizing how western propaganda machine warps the material truths. I mean what they did is no different than Nazis killing people in concentration camps and even worse than that since this massacre was indiscriminate.

In my opinion, after the war the (Allies) commanders / soldiers and any government officials who were involved in arrangement of morale bombing must be tried for the crimes against humanity just like those nazis were tried in Nuernberg.

In the documentary it is clearly stated that although exact number is not known, several thousand civilians had been burnt to death by our beloved big brother's incendiary bombs in Germany.

In the same part of the documentary it is also stated that while use of A-bomb over Japan is continuously stressed, it is never stressed that the Heroic (???) US Army used several incendiary attacks to several Japanese cities (which constists of wooden cottage like buildings) killing at least two hundred thousand civilians. Since US Army simply could not manage to make Japaneses bow before them they started killing civilians in a cowardly frenzy (just like they are doing now in Iraq).

The US led media and their lackey (mainly UK and continental Europe based ones) shall simply follow the example of US by parroting the very statements of the propaganda machine of US government (actually this propaganda is created by Skull and Bones -like fat assed freemasons and implemented by their puppets like Dubya and Blair).

As for the double standard of Western governments (regarding definition of terrorism / terrorists), once upon a time I wrote a condemnation letter to van Haugen regarding my country's rights for self defense against the Kurdish terrorist activities and related to the capture of their leader who is responsible for killing a few ten thousand civilians during a time span of more than twenty years (which cost more than a hundred billion dollars for my country).

I directed that letter to that fag for simple reason that he was calling for the release of bloody terrorist leader but was silent about US's invasion of and bombing civilians in Iraq. I simply said him with a respectful language that "if a few civilian were to be slightly wounded in a terrorist attack in your country you will start yelling as if somebody is driving a stake into your heart. But my country sustains this nightmare for several decades, etc. etc. etc. You are acting in a hypocritical manner...."

In addition after watching several documentaries I really understand why Britain and US are / were so concerned about WMDs and terrorists' possible acquisition of such WMDs. And other more democratic and less global oppressor western countries are not so. The reason is so simple. The Britain (especially in past) and US (currently) committed so many crimes against humanity, if somehow they lose the control of the world, they may drown in the very shit they created.

I shall take the risk of revealing my origins and give you an example : Although my country is very developed, secular and democratical (with respect to those theocratical Moslem countries), a few months ago there was a massive surge of calumnial attacks on US media against my country. As result of this I started lobbying and initiated a campaign of chain letters towards all US based media institutions. (The US Media was claiming that my country is very anti-American (to a certain extent true but not against American people but against American Government) and is secretly supporting Moslem shithead radicals (which is a gross lie)).

Content of the chain letter was very simple. "There is a principle called reciprocality in international law, which can be defined as "you rub my back I rub your back principle" in the language of the man in the street. While my country, as a NATO member is doing almost everything (even those illegitimate ones) our big brother (US) requested (ordered), US government simply ignores and / or refuses even the smallest legitimate requests my country's government makes from the US government. This is called bitching in colloqual language.

The legitimate request my country was making was very simple. There is a Kurdish terrorist organization which (thanks to harboring, payrolling, support by the Hypocritical Western governments) creates troubles for more than twenty years. And thanks to Dubya the Oil Mugger's efforts to establish a puppet government in Iraq, Kurds in Iraq acquired the power in Iraq despite they are minority and explicitly harboring this Kurdish terrorist organization which infiltrates into my country and doing terrorist actions such as killing sabotaging, etc.

My country, being a neighbor of Iraq and strategic partner (or a bitch) of US legitimately requested the US to capture or at least disband these terrorist organization. But US government simply bitches and either ignores or refuses acting against this terrorist organization while she insolently expect us to be loyal to US government and continue acting as instructed.

As a result while western world (governments and camarilla / cabal behind them) shall continue declaring terrorists acting against any of their opponent /rivals as freedom fighter, they shall simply call any terrorist acting against them as terrorist.

But as the final word, any one who plays with fire shall eventually have a few burns themselves. Regards.

[megalomania]

Only a well funded military could effectively utilize chemical or biological weapons to great effect, and even then it is hard to do. Terrorists would use chemical weapons for the terror inflicted. Even if the chemical weapons don't kill anyone the psychological fear inflicted on the mass population would be extreme. Remember that ill advised bit of wisdom passed down from Homeland Security? "One can wrap their windows with plastic sheeting and duct tape." Sure you will suffocate to death, but the terrorists won't have won...

The terror alert has been raised in the US, and FOX news just reported the stock market is way up (DOW +150 a few hours ago) which is apparently unusual during any kind of crisis. Quite frankly I think the lead story in the US is the coming level 4 hurricane in Florida. My parents are down there, so I am watching with interest.

It is probably too early to speculate on how many bombs there were, and what the death toll is. On 9-11 there were news reports from all over the country about bombs being found and additional attacks that proved unfounded in the days the followed.

I am interested to see how the UK public will react to this. Will they now support the war in Iraq to seek vengance against the ragheads, or will they be even further against the war citing it as the reason they were attacked? Is the Union Jack hanging from every house today?

[megalomania]

Only a well funded military could effectively utilize chemical or biological weapons to great effect, and even then it is hard to do. Terrorists would use chemical weapons for the terror inflicted. Even if the chemical weapons don't kill anyone the psychological fear inflicted on the mass population would be extreme. Remember that ill advised bit of wisdom passed down from Homeland Security? "One can wrap their windows with plastic sheeting and duct tape." Sure you will suffocate to death, but the terrorists won't have won...

The terror alert has been raised in the US, and FOX news just reported the stock market is way up (DOW +150 a few hours ago) which is apparently unusual during any kind of crisis. Quite frankly I think the lead story in the US is the coming level 4 hurricane in Florida. My parents are down there, so I am watching with interest.

It is probably too early to speculate on how many bombs there were, and what the death toll is. On 9-11 there were news reports from all over the country about bombs being found and additional attacks that proved unfounded in the days the followed.

I am interested to see how the UK public will react to this. Will they now support the war in Iraq to seek vengance against the ragheads, or will they be even further against the war citing it as the reason they were attacked? Is the Union Jack hanging from every house today?

[Nope]

S**t! Can't we all get along?... guess not. Maybe we should spend some of our nukes to all islam-religion countries! That may solve the problem... :P Anyway, I beleive that the 3rd World War is coming soon! Everybody on your marks! (:P)

[Nope]

S**t! Can't we all get along?... guess not. Maybe we should spend some of our nukes to all islam-religion countries! That may solve the problem... :P Anyway, I beleive that the 3rd World War is coming soon! Everybody on your marks! (:P)

[draco aster]

Do you know what I find STRANGE.....before the twin towers went up terrorist claimed their bombings. Now Its all kept a secret? Who the hell would blow something up without telling everyone it was you :confused:

I think the whole world knows that something not right about this "war against terrorism"....theres nothing we can do. :(

[draco aster]

Do you know what I find STRANGE.....before the twin towers went up terrorist claimed their bombings. Now Its all kept a secret? Who the hell would blow something up without telling everyone it was you :confused:

I think the whole world knows that something not right about this "war against terrorism"....theres nothing we can do. :(

[tomu]

Does anyone remember the times about 20 years ago, when "Paki Bashing" was still en vogue in London? It also was a need trick to poor gasoline through the letter-box lids in the front doors of their houses and light it.

Personnaly I'm a big aficionado of fragmentation grenades/mines. A small amount of explosives with a fragmentation sleeve is a very efficient device. The explosive filler need not be larger than 100 - 300 grams and a fragmentation sleeve is easily made by ball bearings which are cast into plaster of paris. With such an easily improvised device several hundreds of shrapnels can be propelled in a astonishingly tight fragmentation pattern. Several such small devices would produce much more casualties than a much larger single explosive device.

This is a way to get maximum results with a comparatively small quantity of explosives, which could be easily improvised and synthesized clandastinely, even APAN (not recommended) would do in a pinch.

Imagine the following scenario. Friday is the big prayer day of the muslims, lot's of them visiting the mosques. Several small fragmentation devices the size of hand grenades or at max the size of small mortar rounds thrown/fired at prayer time in a mosque will achieve a good killing to explosives ratio. Placing directional fragmentation devices (claymore-type mines) in front of the mosques entrances/exits triggered some time (about 20 sec.) after the first explosions would produce even more casualties under the ones fleeing. Also covering the entrances/exits with a incendiary device or an (improvised) flame thrower engulfing them in flames would greatly be adding to the devastation.

Another scenario would be to place the devices triggered by timers or remote control inside the mosques prior to the attack. This would require a clandestine entering of the building/room, of course. But by prepositioning the devices a much better shrapnel coverage of the room is possible.

Even just placing claymore-type mines in front of the mosques entrances/exits and firing them when the muslims leave after prayer, will get several of them killed and maimed with very little effort.

These are only three possible scenarios but I'm sure there are more ways to share our feelings with the muslim community and show them our appreciation.

As I think about it, the muslims are all mucho macho and they will surely stage a demonstration and go marching the streets after an attack to show their outrage which will just present another great opportunity to hit them hard.

All this could be done by very small group or even a single determined patriot and no need for chemical or biological weapons.

These are only my wild dreams, of course. I do in no way condone or recommend illegal terroristic acts against anyone, especially our beloved muslim brothers and sisters. But this would turn the holy war in a very unfavorable direction for the worshippers of Allah.

[tomu]

Does anyone remember the times about 20 years ago, when "Paki Bashing" was still en vogue in London? It also was a need trick to poor gasoline through the letter-box lids in the front doors of their houses and light it.

Personnaly I'm a big aficionado of fragmentation grenades/mines. A small amount of explosives with a fragmentation sleeve is a very efficient device. The explosive filler need not be larger than 100 - 300 grams and a fragmentation sleeve is easily made by ball bearings which are cast into plaster of paris. With such an easily improvised device several hundreds of shrapnels can be propelled in a astonishingly tight fragmentation pattern. Several such small devices would produce much more casualties than a much larger single explosive device.

This is a way to get maximum results with a comparatively small quantity of explosives, which could be easily improvised and synthesized clandastinely, even APAN (not recommended) would do in a pinch.

Imagine the following scenario. Friday is the big prayer day of the muslims, lot's of them visiting the mosques. Several small fragmentation devices the size of hand grenades or at max the size of small mortar rounds thrown/fired at prayer time in a mosque will achieve a good killing to explosives ratio. Placing directional fragmentation devices (claymore-type mines) in front of the mosques entrances/exits triggered some time (about 20 sec.) after the first explosions would produce even more casualties under the ones fleeing. Also covering the entrances/exits with a incendiary device or an (improvised) flame thrower engulfing them in flames would greatly be adding to the devastation.

Another scenario would be to place the devices triggered by timers or remote control inside the mosques prior to the attack. This would require a clandestine entering of the building/room, of course. But by prepositioning the devices a much better shrapnel coverage of the room is possible.

Even just placing claymore-type mines in front of the mosques entrances/exits and firing them when the muslims leave after prayer, will get several of them killed and maimed with very little effort.

These are only three possible scenarios but I'm sure there are more ways to share our feelings with the muslim community and show them our appreciation.

As I think about it, the muslims are all mucho macho and they will surely stage a demonstration and go marching the streets after an attack to show their outrage which will just present another great opportunity to hit them hard.

All this could be done by very small group or even a single determined patriot and no need for chemical or biological weapons.

These are only my wild dreams, of course. I do in no way condone or recommend illegal terroristic acts against anyone, especially our beloved muslim brothers and sisters. But this would turn the holy war in a very unfavorable direction for the worshippers of Allah.

[megalomania]

Hmm, why arn't citizens of western countries bombing Muslims? There are many thousands of Americans who were affected by 9-11 who have reason to revile the ragheads, and yet where is the violence against them? If people started bombing mosques and burning down the homes and convenience stores owned by those types then hopefully many would flee the country. Maybe then the only ones left would be the terrorists, and therefore easier to round up.

On the subject of the Dresden firebombing, I believe it was the Germans who first started firebombing British cities. The decision was made to respond in kind. Just keep that in mind before calling the Allies war criminals, there was plenty of atrocity to go around. This is why the Germans never used war gasses, as soon as they would gas one city Germany would get gassed. And so on, and so on, ad infinitum ad nauseum.

[megalomania]

Hmm, why arn't citizens of western countries bombing Muslims? There are many thousands of Americans who were affected by 9-11 who have reason to revile the ragheads, and yet where is the violence against them? If people started bombing mosques and burning down the homes and convenience stores owned by those types then hopefully many would flee the country. Maybe then the only ones left would be the terrorists, and therefore easier to round up.

On the subject of the Dresden firebombing, I believe it was the Germans who first started firebombing British cities. The decision was made to respond in kind. Just keep that in mind before calling the Allies war criminals, there was plenty of atrocity to go around. This is why the Germans never used war gasses, as soon as they would gas one city Germany would get gassed. And so on, and so on, ad infinitum ad nauseum.

[tomu]

To mega: Good question, why we the citizens aren't doing anything against them? I guess we are too whimpy. The leftist have infiltraded and weakened our society since the 1960ies with red communist propaganda.

Have a look at all those bleeding hearts, who are keen to share their feelings, offer their support, understanding and what bullshit else. Listen to the statement of Tony the poodle, who in his first statement talks about the lawabiding muslim people, what a big bullshit.

Germany was able to kill at least six million yews in about three or four years in the 1940ies, with all our technology we should be able to achieve this number of enemies in a much shorter time today. But there is no political or public willingness/support to do this. We as a society are to weak, we lack the guts to defend ourselves properly.

Btw. Great Britain nor the USA had nerve gases during WWII, they only had mustard gas to rely on. I think they were very lucky that Hitler didn't like war gases becauses of his gas injuries he suffered during the first world war. He didnt't even ordered the use of poison gases as a last ditch effort, also he gave the so called "burned soil order".

Germany could have trenched the advancing fronts in the west as in the east with nerve gases which would have effectively stopped the advancing allied troops at least for a while. But this possibility wasn't even discussed at the Fuehrerhauptquartier.

[tomu]

To mega: Good question, why we the citizens aren't doing anything against them? I guess we are too whimpy. The leftist have infiltraded and weakened our society since the 1960ies with red communist propaganda.

Have a look at all those bleeding hearts, who are keen to share their feelings, offer their support, understanding and what bullshit else. Listen to the statement of Tony the poodle, who in his first statement talks about the lawabiding muslim people, what a big bullshit.

Germany was able to kill at least six million yews in about three or four years in the 1940ies, with all our technology we should be able to achieve this number of enemies in a much shorter time today. But there is no political or public willingness/support to do this. We as a society are to weak, we lack the guts to defend ourselves properly.

Btw. Great Britain nor the USA had nerve gases during WWII, they only had mustard gas to rely on. I think they were very lucky that Hitler didn't like war gases becauses of his gas injuries he suffered during the first world war. He didnt't even ordered the use of poison gases as a last ditch effort, also he gave the so called "burned soil order".

Germany could have trenched the advancing fronts in the west as in the east with nerve gases which would have effectively stopped the advancing allied troops at least for a while. But this possibility wasn't even discussed at the Fuehrerhauptquartier.

[nbk2000]

I'd like to point out that, 60 years ago during WW2, that the principle belligerants (US/Germany) had material resources and technical expertise that no raghead country can match even today, so it doesn't matter if the Nazis experimented with a radiological bomb back in WW2 because the rags still can't match their expertise 60 years later.

You'll also notice how the Soviets never had to worry about this sort of 'Terrorist' bullshit going on in their country, simply because everyone knew that the Soviets exterminated anyone who fucked with them. The chechnians (SP?) got a taste of it, and this was AFTER the collapse. Imagine what it would have been like when they were in their prime! :)

Having a police state didn't hurt either, but we don't want to go there.

[nbk2000]

I'd like to point out that, 60 years ago during WW2, that the principle belligerants (US/Germany) had material resources and technical expertise that no raghead country can match even today, so it doesn't matter if the Nazis experimented with a radiological bomb back in WW2 because the rags still can't match their expertise 60 years later.

You'll also notice how the Soviets never had to worry about this sort of 'Terrorist' bullshit going on in their country, simply because everyone knew that the Soviets exterminated anyone who fucked with them. The chechnians (SP?) got a taste of it, and this was AFTER the collapse. Imagine what it would have been like when they were in their prime! :)

Having a police state didn't hurt either, but we don't want to go there.

[xyz]

Good point NBK, I remember hearing a story about a russian diplomat who went missing in Lebanon, 3 days later the spetznatz delivered a present to the kidnapper's house - the severed head of the kidnapper's brother.

Apparently they were scared out of their minds, they let the guy go and no russians were kidnapped for quite a while after that...

[xyz]

Good point NBK, I remember hearing a story about a russian diplomat who went missing in Lebanon, 3 days later the spetznatz delivered a present to the kidnapper's house - the severed head of the kidnapper's brother.

Apparently they were scared out of their minds, they let the guy go and no russians were kidnapped for quite a while after that...

[megalomania]

An American diplomat once asked a soviet official why there was no terrorism in the Soviet Union. He responded simply "Because we do not allow it!"

Soviet law for terrorism said you, and your family, get your heads chopped off and displayed on a pike in the Kremlin for awhile. No one dared try anything. Martyrdom may be fine for you, but is it also fine for your father/mother/brother/sister/wife/son/daughter/goat? I didn't think so... Almost everyone has someone in their life that can be gotten too and punished because of what you did.

The British may now respond by unleashing their jackbooted thugs to do their worst in the name of justice. People tend to turn a blind eye to governmental abuses after a crisis. When will Parliment introduce the Great Britian equivilent of the Patriot Act? (you know it is already written and sitting in TB's desk drawer just waiting for an event like this).

[megalomania]

An American diplomat once asked a soviet official why there was no terrorism in the Soviet Union. He responded simply "Because we do not allow it!"

Soviet law for terrorism said you, and your family, get your heads chopped off and displayed on a pike in the Kremlin for awhile. No one dared try anything. Martyrdom may be fine for you, but is it also fine for your father/mother/brother/sister/wife/son/daughter/goat? I didn't think so... Almost everyone has someone in their life that can be gotten too and punished because of what you did.

The British may now respond by unleashing their jackbooted thugs to do their worst in the name of justice. People tend to turn a blind eye to governmental abuses after a crisis. When will Parliment introduce the Great Britian equivilent of the Patriot Act? (you know it is already written and sitting in TB's desk drawer just waiting for an event like this).

[Chris The Great]

Chemicals are hard to find and they are well controled,...

I am touching up some errors that are in my (unfinished) completely OTC VX synthesis at the moment. The incomplete document appeared on the crucible forum a couple of days before it went offline due to a problem with billing. Unfortunately it contained several serious mistakes which I noticed soon after and so I haven't put it up elsewhere yet. These mistakes relate to things of minor importance but will certainly cause problems if anyone tried it! Stuff like proportions being slightly off or carbon dioxide being recommended as an atmosphere when it will in fact react,... It is unfinished because I haven't finished typing up all the reactions, with proportions and details and all that essential stuff.

Anyway, the hardest part is making a reactor to make POCl3, requiring a modest 350 to 400 degrees C, or 600 to 700 should you choose a root that doesn't requite the formation of phosgene gas (in the reactor, or seperate, I have included multiple procedures). After that it is converted to methylphosphonic dichloride with a methyl metal and then to a V agent (or a G agent but then you need NaF or equivalent, which isn't very OTC). Precursors include easy stuff like TSP cleaner, hydrochloric acid, hexane, different alcohols (methyl, ethyl, isopropyl), NaOH, and the like. Nothing controlled, everything easily available at your local store (I know because I have bought nearly all of the precursors, for other stuff of course ;) , and I have seen every one of them for sale). You also need a (cheapy) glovebox, fractional vacuum distillation setup and a high pressure reaction vessel, made from such advanced materials as the "pop bottle" or "stainless steel pipe", though pop bottles may burst so you might want to wait until I try that particular vessel out.

Back to your regularily scheduled topic, and see you in a few days (maybe a week since I want to add a few more procedures first) :D

[Chris The Great]

Chemicals are hard to find and they are well controled,...

I am touching up some errors that are in my (unfinished) completely OTC VX synthesis at the moment. The incomplete document appeared on the crucible forum a couple of days before it went offline due to a problem with billing. Unfortunately it contained several serious mistakes which I noticed soon after and so I haven't put it up elsewhere yet. These mistakes relate to things of minor importance but will certainly cause problems if anyone tried it! Stuff like proportions being slightly off or carbon dioxide being recommended as an atmosphere when it will in fact react,... It is unfinished because I haven't finished typing up all the reactions, with proportions and details and all that essential stuff.

Anyway, the hardest part is making a reactor to make POCl3, requiring a modest 350 to 400 degrees C, or 600 to 700 should you choose a root that doesn't requite the formation of phosgene gas (in the reactor, or seperate, I have included multiple procedures). After that it is converted to methylphosphonic dichloride with a methyl metal and then to a V agent (or a G agent but then you need NaF or equivalent, which isn't very OTC). Precursors include easy stuff like TSP cleaner, hydrochloric acid, hexane, different alcohols (methyl, ethyl, isopropyl), NaOH, and the like. Nothing controlled, everything easily available at your local store (I know because I have bought nearly all of the precursors, for other stuff of course ;) , and I have seen every one of them for sale). You also need a (cheapy) glovebox, fractional vacuum distillation setup and a high pressure reaction vessel, made from such advanced materials as the "pop bottle" or "stainless steel pipe", though pop bottles may burst so you might want to wait until I try that particular vessel out.

Back to your regularily scheduled topic, and see you in a few days (maybe a week since I want to add a few more procedures first) :D

[tomu]

Someone obviously heard the wake-up call and decided to do something.

Presumeably two guys firebombed the Shahjalal mosque in Birkenhead, UK. Unfortunately only the front door burned down and some smoke damage to the walls was done.

[tomu]

Someone obviously heard the wake-up call and decided to do something.

Presumeably two guys firebombed the Shahjalal mosque in Birkenhead, UK. Unfortunately only the front door burned down and some smoke damage to the walls was done.

[me234]

For a simple chemical weapon type, I was thinking, why not take a fairly low temp. HE along the lines of NaCl cooled ANFO, a mix in a decent portion of KCN or such. Hopefully the detonation temps won't cause the CN to decompose (probably will but it might be worth a try). The ersults might be interesting in an enclosed space like a building, fire station, etc.

I read in the paper the other day (yesterday?) that they (big brother) believe the devices to have been approximately 4-4.5 Kgs or so. And that the one device alone cause about 21 deaths. All of a sudden the particular spot chosen for that device was quite a good idea.

What about bombing the moslems in their mosques, phoning a radio station and claiming responsibility as a christian fundamentalist group. Then bomb a church somewhere and phone in saying it's a jihad?
Actually, sheeple will probably buy it easier if the moslems bomb first as they are expected to, and then some good christian folk from Montana can decide they've had enough of this and retaliate. With any luck, you can find a nice quiet spot in the mountains and watch as everyone kills each other.

OK, lets assume 50 or some people killed. The question now stands, would a government, or would a government not, be willing to sacrifice that many people to create a crisis big enough that the sheeple would willingly give up their rights to 'ensure' their 'safety' and their 'freedom' as a democratic state?
OK, maybe one incident wouldn't do it, but after one or two bombings, a small to medium death toll, an increased presence in the Iraq war (to "fight for your freedom from safety, oops sorry, I mean terror"). Now suddenly everybody is thankful for big brother protecting them.
Now maybe a government hasn't actually killed off it citizens itself, but I'm sure it has ignored warnings before, and I'm fucking certain that many a news conference has been held to up play the effect of some or other incident in such a way as to favor the government.

To quote Shakespeare (I think):
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervour, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar".

Governments throughout history have been doing this shit, and not a fucking person has taken any notice, except, of course, my esteemed colleagues on this most prestigious of forums.

[me234]

For a simple chemical weapon type, I was thinking, why not take a fairly low temp. HE along the lines of NaCl cooled ANFO, a mix in a decent portion of KCN or such. Hopefully the detonation temps won't cause the CN to decompose (probably will but it might be worth a try). The ersults might be interesting in an enclosed space like a building, fire station, etc.

I read in the paper the other day (yesterday?) that they (big brother) believe the devices to have been approximately 4-4.5 Kgs or so. And that the one device alone cause about 21 deaths. All of a sudden the particular spot chosen for that device was quite a good idea.

What about bombing the moslems in their mosques, phoning a radio station and claiming responsibility as a christian fundamentalist group. Then bomb a church somewhere and phone in saying it's a jihad?
Actually, sheeple will probably buy it easier if the moslems bomb first as they are expected to, and then some good christian folk from Montana can decide they've had enough of this and retaliate. With any luck, you can find a nice quiet spot in the mountains and watch as everyone kills each other.

OK, lets assume 50 or some people killed. The question now stands, would a government, or would a government not, be willing to sacrifice that many people to create a crisis big enough that the sheeple would willingly give up their rights to 'ensure' their 'safety' and their 'freedom' as a democratic state?
OK, maybe one incident wouldn't do it, but after one or two bombings, a small to medium death toll, an increased presence in the Iraq war (to "fight for your freedom from safety, oops sorry, I mean terror"). Now suddenly everybody is thankful for big brother protecting them.
Now maybe a government hasn't actually killed off it citizens itself, but I'm sure it has ignored warnings before, and I'm fucking certain that many a news conference has been held to up play the effect of some or other incident in such a way as to favor the government.

To quote Shakespeare (I think):
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervour, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar".

Governments throughout history have been doing this shit, and not a fucking person has taken any notice, except, of course, my esteemed colleagues on this most prestigious of forums.

[Jacks Complete]

Well, back with another scoop. The British police knew the underground was going to be hit. They just didn't know when.

Having said that, it's a fairly ripe target!

We are up to about 70 deaths now. Which seems odd, since normally UK hospitals are quite good at stopping people dying once they are in a bed there.

So we have another confirmation of the suicide bomber at Canary Wharf... I think that's being supressed because peole would worry a whole lot more about a sucide bomber than a few bombs. It's like another level of attack, isn't it?

As for why people don't go and get revenge, it's because the UK come down harder on "vilgilantes" than on terrorists. Time after time. I'm not sure we could really win a race war in our cities, either. All the Yardies and gang-bangers would go out and have plenty of fun, but the disarmed people would be stuck, while the small gangs of Arab gunmen walked about the place killing huge numbers of people with aimed gunfire and pointblank headshots to finish them - or even cutting their throats. What good would a police ARV be? If the group was in fact split in two, they could easily do a counter attack on the police, with huge loss of personel and C&C, leaving the armed cops in the firefight utterly in the dark.

Even worse would be if this were done in a small town in Scotland, where the victims wouldn't even have BB guns to defend themselves! (Yes, there would be a few gun owners, but not more than two or three per thousand.) If a way could be found to take out the helicopter that responded first, response times would be in the 30 minutes range as a minimum, and they wouldn't even be armed, or more than two.

As a way to spread terror, wiping out an entire town for the cost of ten pistols and assault rifles plus ammo, and some body armour + petrol bombs, it makes blowing up London look quite a silly option!

[Jacks Complete]

Well, back with another scoop. The British police knew the underground was going to be hit. They just didn't know when.

Having said that, it's a fairly ripe target!

We are up to about 70 deaths now. Which seems odd, since normally UK hospitals are quite good at stopping people dying once they are in a bed there.

So we have another confirmation of the suicide bomber at Canary Wharf... I think that's being supressed because peole would worry a whole lot more about a sucide bomber than a few bombs. It's like another level of attack, isn't it?

As for why people don't go and get revenge, it's because the UK come down harder on "vilgilantes" than on terrorists. Time after time. I'm not sure we could really win a race war in our cities, either. All the Yardies and gang-bangers would go out and have plenty of fun, but the disarmed people would be stuck, while the small gangs of Arab gunmen walked about the place killing huge numbers of people with aimed gunfire and pointblank headshots to finish them - or even cutting their throats. What good would a police ARV be? If the group was in fact split in two, they could easily do a counter attack on the police, with huge loss of personel and C&C, leaving the armed cops in the firefight utterly in the dark.

Even worse would be if this were done in a small town in Scotland, where the victims wouldn't even have BB guns to defend themselves! (Yes, there would be a few gun owners, but not more than two or three per thousand.) If a way could be found to take out the helicopter that responded first, response times would be in the 30 minutes range as a minimum, and they wouldn't even be armed, or more than two.

As a way to spread terror, wiping out an entire town for the cost of ten pistols and assault rifles plus ammo, and some body armour + petrol bombs, it makes blowing up London look quite a silly option!

[sdjsdj]

The only reason the death toll keeps rising is that there are still bodies being pulled out of the underground - as soon as the emergency services decided that there was no-one left in there alive, they pulled out, and are only going back in now that the fire and collapse hazards have subsided.

[sdjsdj]

The only reason the death toll keeps rising is that there are still bodies being pulled out of the underground - as soon as the emergency services decided that there was no-one left in there alive, they pulled out, and are only going back in now that the fire and collapse hazards have subsided.

[fr0sengh0st]

The whole point of a terror attack is to affect the target country even after the attack is finished.

As to the attack akin to GTA video game, of using small arms fire to gun down civilians and police, this would surely be not be as successful as a bombing scheme.

Firstly it’s much harder to train a suicide bomber to be competent in the firing of arms than it is to show them how to pull a tag on their vest :D .
Buying assault rifles and pistols for the team would be much harder and expensive, and the terrorists would be more likely to alert security services than with the purchase of a few kilos of high explosive.
Wiping out a remote town in Scotland would be a national tragedy however it would be to far removed for most people in the south to feel threatened.
If one attacked in London then I’m sure that an armed response unit would quickly neutralise the target considering that these terrorists could have hardly any training.

With the recent bombing people who get on the underground must have in the back of their minds that they are not completely safe so spreading terror. If people new they were safe unless they saw some jihad fighter running down the street in armour and waving guns around then people would be less affected.

[fr0sengh0st]

The whole point of a terror attack is to affect the target country even after the attack is finished.

As to the attack akin to GTA video game, of using small arms fire to gun down civilians and police, this would surely be not be as successful as a bombing scheme.

Firstly it’s much harder to train a suicide bomber to be competent in the firing of arms than it is to show them how to pull a tag on their vest :D .
Buying assault rifles and pistols for the team would be much harder and expensive, and the terrorists would be more likely to alert security services than with the purchase of a few kilos of high explosive.
Wiping out a remote town in Scotland would be a national tragedy however it would be to far removed for most people in the south to feel threatened.
If one attacked in London then I’m sure that an armed response unit would quickly neutralise the target considering that these terrorists could have hardly any training.

With the recent bombing people who get on the underground must have in the back of their minds that they are not completely safe so spreading terror. If people new they were safe unless they saw some jihad fighter running down the street in armour and waving guns around then people would be less affected.

[nbk2000]

I saw in a newspaper a few days ago that the brit gov. was saying it was a local extremist group (read that as IRA) and not Jihadists. Probably bunk info, as it's for public consumption.

Why are so many people dying? Maybe Joe Jihadi took the advice from my PDF and poisoned the shrapnel.

It would certainly be understandable why that info wouldn't be made public, as it's much more terrifying than just simple wounding by shrapnel...a slow death by unstoppable poison. :)

They do this with frags in suicide bombs in israel, but it's usually some low-grade rat poison...not very effective. Perhaps this one is using TETS or something as powerful? With access to first world chemicals, you could make just about anything.

70 dead out of only a few hundred wounded is far out of proportion from the usual 1 in 10.

[nbk2000]

I saw in a newspaper a few days ago that the brit gov. was saying it was a local extremist group (read that as IRA) and not Jihadists. Probably bunk info, as it's for public consumption.

Why are so many people dying? Maybe Joe Jihadi took the advice from my PDF and poisoned the shrapnel.

It would certainly be understandable why that info wouldn't be made public, as it's much more terrifying than just simple wounding by shrapnel...a slow death by unstoppable poison. :)

They do this with frags in suicide bombs in israel, but it's usually some low-grade rat poison...not very effective. Perhaps this one is using TETS or something as powerful? With access to first world chemicals, you could make just about anything.

70 dead out of only a few hundred wounded is far out of proportion from the usual 1 in 10.

[Jacks Complete]

Wiping out a remote town in Scotland would be a national tragedy however it would be to far removed for most people in the south to feel threatened.You probably aren't from around here then. After 17 kids got killed in Dunblane, it was the end of the world for weeks.
If one attacked in London then I’m sure that an armed response unit would quickly neutralise the target considering that these terrorists could have hardly any training.Depends where they get the terrs from! Most Arabs seem to be quite useful with an AK, unless the target shoots back. And buying kilos of HE is a lot harder than getting a pistol. Hell, every little punk seems to have a gun now, but it's only the IRA etc. who have kilos of explosives. Getting a crate of inert steel into the country is also far and away easier than aromatic explosives, too.

As for the ARV, they are well trained, but they are only two men in poor (class IIIA max) body armour. No match for three or more guys with rifles waiting for them!

With the recent bombing people who get on the underground must have in the back of their minds that they are not completely safe so spreading terror. If people new they were safe unless they saw some jihad fighter running down the street in armour and waving guns around then people would be less affected.And if the Jihadis simply killed a few hundred in a village, then left? They regroup 200 miles away in the next target village. It would strike fear into the heart of every "little Englander" every time a "Johny Foriegner" walked down the street. Far more so than just "one of those things" that happens in London...

Fear has to have a trigger. If it is Mr. Patel from number 42, that's far better than a suspect looking package! After all, they can do something about suspect looking packages.

Edit: NBK, you are right. Far higher. We are being fed a lot of shite regarding this whole incident...

[Jacks Complete]

Wiping out a remote town in Scotland would be a national tragedy however it would be to far removed for most people in the south to feel threatened.You probably aren't from around here then. After 17 kids got killed in Dunblane, it was the end of the world for weeks.
If one attacked in London then I’m sure that an armed response unit would quickly neutralise the target considering that these terrorists could have hardly any training.Depends where they get the terrs from! Most Arabs seem to be quite useful with an AK, unless the target shoots back. And buying kilos of HE is a lot harder than getting a pistol. Hell, every little punk seems to have a gun now, but it's only the IRA etc. who have kilos of explosives. Getting a crate of inert steel into the country is also far and away easier than aromatic explosives, too.

As for the ARV, they are well trained, but they are only two men in poor (class IIIA max) body armour. No match for three or more guys with rifles waiting for them!

With the recent bombing people who get on the underground must have in the back of their minds that they are not completely safe so spreading terror. If people new they were safe unless they saw some jihad fighter running down the street in armour and waving guns around then people would be less affected.And if the Jihadis simply killed a few hundred in a village, then left? They regroup 200 miles away in the next target village. It would strike fear into the heart of every "little Englander" every time a "Johny Foriegner" walked down the street. Far more so than just "one of those things" that happens in London...

Fear has to have a trigger. If it is Mr. Patel from number 42, that's far better than a suspect looking package! After all, they can do something about suspect looking packages.

Edit: NBK, you are right. Far higher. We are being fed a lot of shite regarding this whole incident...

[FUTI]

I agree about shite part. I also have doubt about some of those planes that were down over USA during 9/11. I guess army just cut the losses by shooting down the plane that terrorist seized and instead waiting for them to come to an urban area and smash into a federal building or tower downed plane by all means neccesary...and involving Patriotic Act into scene we will know the whole story in a next half of a century.
About kids getting killed...who wanted to look, can saw that in Russia. Couple hundred kids and peoples gathered in school died after bombs exploded. After that Moscow theatre incident terrorist start using to-much-plane-speaking-understood dead-man switch apparently...one man standing on a switch that arms the bombs and if he pull his leg up or drop down dead all bombs explode instantly.

[FUTI]

I agree about shite part. I also have doubt about some of those planes that were down over USA during 9/11. I guess army just cut the losses by shooting down the plane that terrorist seized and instead waiting for them to come to an urban area and smash into a federal building or tower downed plane by all means neccesary...and involving Patriotic Act into scene we will know the whole story in a next half of a century.
About kids getting killed...who wanted to look, can saw that in Russia. Couple hundred kids and peoples gathered in school died after bombs exploded. After that Moscow theatre incident terrorist start using to-much-plane-speaking-understood dead-man switch apparently...one man standing on a switch that arms the bombs and if he pull his leg up or drop down dead all bombs explode instantly.

[Mr. Pseudo]

Apparently the CT boys are now investigating TATP as the most probable HE used in the bombings. It figures that the ragheads are still operating at the level of a 12 year old. How much do you want to bet they got their bomb schematics off of totse?

5 Kilos of TATP runs around 70-80 bucks, so they managed to squeeze 53 deaths out of only 300 bucks (not including the trigger mechanisms). Not half bad for a couple of dune monkeys, but I'm confident that nearly every member here could put those numbers to shame.

[Mr. Pseudo]

Apparently the CT boys are now investigating TATP as the most probable HE used in the bombings. It figures that the ragheads are still operating at the level of a 12 year old. How much do you want to bet they got their bomb schematics off of totse?

5 Kilos of TATP runs around 70-80 bucks, so they managed to squeeze 53 deaths out of only 300 bucks (not including the trigger mechanisms). Not half bad for a couple of dune monkeys, but I'm confident that nearly every member here could put those numbers to shame.

[me234]

I saw in the paper the other day (kinda ironic how dependant we here all are on government censored newspapers isn't it?) that they now believe the bombers to be from England, i.e. local chaps. So now what they're gonna do is say, 'Oh well, if they don't come from Iraq, but rather from here, obviously we need better laws to prevent local boys from making explosives. So now we need more cameras, and more restrictions on chemicals.'
And if anyone asks why, the reply will go something like this:
'We are from the government, and we are trying to help you by enforcing you constitutional right to safety!'
I love the way that people/sheeple have come to interpret a constitutional right to freedom and freedom from unsafe things.
I was watching the TV the other day and the G-boys has an advert mentioning our, the citizens, constitutional right to safety!
I mean come the fuck on.
I swear the brit G-boys set those fucking things off themselves, now there is a distinct window of opportunity for the government to implement more laws, all in the name of safety.
What the people don't seem to realize is that the police aren't magically going to appear when you are in trouble, the only safety one truly possesses, it that which one provides for himself.
Please not, in the above post the term 'him' refers to either gender, so please don't sue my ass for gender discrimination.

[me234]

I saw in the paper the other day (kinda ironic how dependant we here all are on government censored newspapers isn't it?) that they now believe the bombers to be from England, i.e. local chaps. So now what they're gonna do is say, 'Oh well, if they don't come from Iraq, but rather from here, obviously we need better laws to prevent local boys from making explosives. So now we need more cameras, and more restrictions on chemicals.'
And if anyone asks why, the reply will go something like this:
'We are from the government, and we are trying to help you by enforcing you constitutional right to safety!'
I love the way that people/sheeple have come to interpret a constitutional right to freedom and freedom from unsafe things.
I was watching the TV the other day and the G-boys has an advert mentioning our, the citizens, constitutional right to safety!
I mean come the fuck on.
I swear the brit G-boys set those fucking things off themselves, now there is a distinct window of opportunity for the government to implement more laws, all in the name of safety.
What the people don't seem to realize is that the police aren't magically going to appear when you are in trouble, the only safety one truly possesses, it that which one provides for himself.
Please not, in the above post the term 'him' refers to either gender, so please don't sue my ass for gender discrimination.

[Jacks Complete]

me234, we don't have a constitution. We have the Bill of Rights, which the US Constitution was based on, but it was allowed to fall by the wayside long ago. Self defence was banned by the Home Office in 1965 or there abouts.

It seems there is no mention of the Canary Wharf shooting to date, but they are no admitting that there were 4 suicide bombers, and yes, they were all English! (Pretty much) Hell, one was a school counsellor!?!

"Go into Jihad, son."
"Jihad? What's that, like Pokemon?"
"Yes, but you get this cool jacket!"
"Wow, 'leet puffer jacket!"
"Yes, now, go get on the 30 bus to your first interview..."

[Jacks Complete]

me234, we don't have a constitution. We have the Bill of Rights, which the US Constitution was based on, but it was allowed to fall by the wayside long ago. Self defence was banned by the Home Office in 1965 or there abouts.

It seems there is no mention of the Canary Wharf shooting to date, but they are no admitting that there were 4 suicide bombers, and yes, they were all English! (Pretty much) Hell, one was a school counsellor!?!

"Go into Jihad, son."
"Jihad? What's that, like Pokemon?"
"Yes, but you get this cool jacket!"
"Wow, 'leet puffer jacket!"
"Yes, now, go get on the 30 bus to your first interview..."

[tomu]

Several News Companies are reporting today that Aceton Peroxide mixed with some other substance (maybe Ammonium Nitrate?) was used in the London bombings. AP was also found during the raid of one of the suspects home.

So no military explosives, no smuggling from the balkans, no magic bullet, just plain and simple homebrew stuff, like Granddad used to make as Kurt Saxon would have said.

[tomu]

Several News Companies are reporting today that Aceton Peroxide mixed with some other substance (maybe Ammonium Nitrate?) was used in the London bombings. AP was also found during the raid of one of the suspects home.

So no military explosives, no smuggling from the balkans, no magic bullet, just plain and simple homebrew stuff, like Granddad used to make as Kurt Saxon would have said.

[nbk2000]

I just now saw some pictures of the london bombing, more specifically the bus bomb, taken litterally moments afterwards.

I'd have to say that the claim that it's a military grade explosive is bullshit! There was NO fire, NO smoke, the roof was torn off intact, there were intact bodies, whole seats had been tossed out of the bus intact and unburnt, etc etc...

Hell, there were intact windows in that bus!

I'd say it was a low-explosive, such as APAN, since that's a cool (temperature-wise) explosive that has great heaving power, but isn't powerful enough to shatter objects, such as a HE like TNT or such would.

Anyone who's seen pictures of israeli bus bombings knows what a REAL high-explosive bomb does.

True responsibility is likely to rest with the UK government, either through direct action of setting the bombs of themselves (unlikely), or through inaction by letting a known terr attack go down when they could have prevented it (the McVeigh strategy).

It's just sooooo convenient that the very next day, the UK police had begun installing millimetric body scanners at tube stations. You know, the cameras that see through your clothes? How likely is it that they got these things delivered overnight? Or is it more likely they already had them nearby, ready to install as they KNEW when they'd have the excuse to do so?

Oh, and it's just so handy to have a terror attack when the national ID bill was moribund...sounds like a page from the US playbook!

[nbk2000]

I just now saw some pictures of the london bombing, more specifically the bus bomb, taken litterally moments afterwards.

I'd have to say that the claim that it's a military grade explosive is bullshit! There was NO fire, NO smoke, the roof was torn off intact, there were intact bodies, whole seats had been tossed out of the bus intact and unburnt, etc etc...

Hell, there were intact windows in that bus!

I'd say it was a low-explosive, such as APAN, since that's a cool (temperature-wise) explosive that has great heaving power, but isn't powerful enough to shatter objects, such as a HE like TNT or such would.

Anyone who's seen pictures of israeli bus bombings knows what a REAL high-explosive bomb does.

True responsibility is likely to rest with the UK government, either through direct action of setting the bombs of themselves (unlikely), or through inaction by letting a known terr attack go down when they could have prevented it (the McVeigh strategy).

It's just sooooo convenient that the very next day, the UK police had begun installing millimetric body scanners at tube stations. You know, the cameras that see through your clothes? How likely is it that they got these things delivered overnight? Or is it more likely they already had them nearby, ready to install as they KNEW when they'd have the excuse to do so?

Oh, and it's just so handy to have a terror attack when the national ID bill was moribund...sounds like a page from the US playbook!

[krimmie]

I just read this on MSN...please take with grain of salt.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8569164/page/2/

{Meanwhile, the BBC, citing sources close to the investigation, said the explosive used was the highly unstable TATP (triacetone triperoxide), made from freely available ingredients.

It said the explosives, found in raids in the city of Leeds, are thought to be similar to materials used by British “shoe bomber” Richard Reid who tried to blow up a transatlantic flight in 2001 with explosives concealed in his shoes.}

[krimmie]

I just read this on MSN...please take with grain of salt.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8569164/page/2/

{Meanwhile, the BBC, citing sources close to the investigation, said the explosive used was the highly unstable TATP (triacetone triperoxide), made from freely available ingredients.

It said the explosives, found in raids in the city of Leeds, are thought to be similar to materials used by British “shoe bomber” Richard Reid who tried to blow up a transatlantic flight in 2001 with explosives concealed in his shoes.}

[Jacks Complete]

NBK, agreed. They tracked the bombers back to Leeds before they even found all the bodies. The raids were in place way faster than normally possible. ID cards and body scanners were obviously on stand-by. That they picked up the leader as he tried to leave the country is also telling.

Discussions with others brings them to the same conclusion - the intelligence people must have known. I then brought up the idea I posted above, as regards the cell was infiltrated, the timers changed, and the bombs went off before the proper targets were reached. It's a reasonable hypothesis. The other is that they were set up by their own side.

Look at the "facts" so far. Four bombs, four suicide bombers? All from Leeds? Unlikely. I doubt the guys knew they were to become martyrs. Either the bombs were adjusted forward by the boss, or by someone else. Getting someone who can be tuned to blow themselves up generally requires a state where the dole doesn't exist, and free TV isn't there to brainwash into inactivity...

[Jacks Complete]

NBK, agreed. They tracked the bombers back to Leeds before they even found all the bodies. The raids were in place way faster than normally possible. ID cards and body scanners were obviously on stand-by. That they picked up the leader as he tried to leave the country is also telling.

Discussions with others brings them to the same conclusion - the intelligence people must have known. I then brought up the idea I posted above, as regards the cell was infiltrated, the timers changed, and the bombs went off before the proper targets were reached. It's a reasonable hypothesis. The other is that they were set up by their own side.

Look at the "facts" so far. Four bombs, four suicide bombers? All from Leeds? Unlikely. I doubt the guys knew they were to become martyrs. Either the bombs were adjusted forward by the boss, or by someone else. Getting someone who can be tuned to blow themselves up generally requires a state where the dole doesn't exist, and free TV isn't there to brainwash into inactivity...

[me234]

NBK, you're right man, I completely forgot about McVeigh!
Letting someone carry this out when they knew what was going to happen is quite likely.
He He. I read in the paper (dammit, again with the fucking paper) that they were certain it was not a homemade device simply because it was too big.
LOL

Oh, shit, now they're going to say that they must restrict the amounts of chemicals that can be ordered/ procured by an individual, saying to all the mother-grundies that it's for their own good.
They set everybody up. By having all that 'protective' equipment ready to be installed they fool everybody (well, almost) into believing that they're capable and ready to keep us safe. They know that sheeple will just see equipment being put into place that'll keep our families safe (and remove out damned freedom). They know that the sheeple will never question how they managed to get the stuff so fast, they'll only see the action, not the motivation behind it. Hell, they know the sheeple will never question them period. Just now they'll probably outlaw questioning the G-boys. It's already been done in Zimbabwe.
Fuck me, there go all out liberties.
If that fourth bomb went off prematurely, then maybe it was AP, and maybe the dude was fiddling with it.
Or maybe that's what they want us, the knowledgeable ones, to think, so that maybe we'll buy the story of the government not being involved: 'Because they'd never use AP' is what they will say.

Has anyone else noticed that the new shit-your-pants word is SECURITY. I mean think about it, somebody mentions that word and everyone shits their pants and surrenders their rights, willingly. It used to be TERRORIST, mention that, point a finger, and off to Guantanamo Bay for you (or wherever that prison/ concentration camp is). Hell, before TERRORIST, we had WITCH, mention THAT word and people got burned at a stake. I wonder what'll be next? FREEDOM OF SPEECH maybe?

NBK, where'd you read about the scanners? I'd like to read up on that myself, maybe see where the G-boys are heading next.

[me234]

NBK, you're right man, I completely forgot about McVeigh!
Letting someone carry this out when they knew what was going to happen is quite likely.
He He. I read in the paper (dammit, again with the fucking paper) that they were certain it was not a homemade device simply because it was too big.
LOL

Oh, shit, now they're going to say that they must restrict the amounts of chemicals that can be ordered/ procured by an individual, saying to all the mother-grundies that it's for their own good.
They set everybody up. By having all that 'protective' equipment ready to be installed they fool everybody (well, almost) into believing that they're capable and ready to keep us safe. They know that sheeple will just see equipment being put into place that'll keep our families safe (and remove out damned freedom). They know that the sheeple will never question how they managed to get the stuff so fast, they'll only see the action, not the motivation behind it. Hell, they know the sheeple will never question them period. Just now they'll probably outlaw questioning the G-boys. It's already been done in Zimbabwe.
Fuck me, there go all out liberties.
If that fourth bomb went off prematurely, then maybe it was AP, and maybe the dude was fiddling with it.
Or maybe that's what they want us, the knowledgeable ones, to think, so that maybe we'll buy the story of the government not being involved: 'Because they'd never use AP' is what they will say.

Has anyone else noticed that the new shit-your-pants word is SECURITY. I mean think about it, somebody mentions that word and everyone shits their pants and surrenders their rights, willingly. It used to be TERRORIST, mention that, point a finger, and off to Guantanamo Bay for you (or wherever that prison/ concentration camp is). Hell, before TERRORIST, we had WITCH, mention THAT word and people got burned at a stake. I wonder what'll be next? FREEDOM OF SPEECH maybe?

NBK, where'd you read about the scanners? I'd like to read up on that myself, maybe see where the G-boys are heading next.

[Corona]

From today's paper....

http://www.dawn.com/2005/07/18/int10.htm

Mother of Satan???

[Corona]

From today's paper....

http://www.dawn.com/2005/07/18/int10.htm

Mother of Satan???

[hereno]

“If you look at the books five to 10 years ago, this material was never mentioned. Several chemists got together with evil intent and they devised all the techniques and all the warnings about how you can do this,” he said. “They’re probably the people who you should really hate most about this.”—Dawn/The Guardian News Service.

That is probably the most ignorant statement I have ever heard. Yes, we are the ones to blame :rolleyes:

[hereno]

“If you look at the books five to 10 years ago, this material was never mentioned. Several chemists got together with evil intent and they devised all the techniques and all the warnings about how you can do this,” he said. “They’re probably the people who you should really hate most about this.”—Dawn/The Guardian News Service.

That is probably the most ignorant statement I have ever heard. Yes, we are the ones to blame :rolleyes:

[Dave Angel]

me 234: nice comparison; witches and terrorists!

I was just watching the BBC news and they were doing an item on how the government are planning to introduce new crimes, one of which being "providing terrorist training" - These words were overlaid on a totse web page on acetone peroxide. Whether the beeb think that 'our' kinds of sites are terrorist training as they don't know anything or if the government is going to take that line I have no idea, but the cynical side of me says, well, both. I wonder if accessing sites such as this will be considered an "act of preparatory terrorism".

I find it a bit odd how it was originally thought that military explosives were used. Surely the standard analytical techniques could have been run fairly quickly to discover exactly what was used, so again, probably just the media have the wrong idea.

They’re probably the people who you should really hate most about this.”—Dawn/The Guardian News Service.
Sure because, limited to stick and stones, someone who hated another group of people that much wouldn't go and beat their brains out. He'd say "oh well, no explosives so no jihad." :rolleyes:

History is full of religious conflict where one group of people killed others due to hatred, explosives only became available relatively recently.

The other thing about this you hear over and over again:

"The vast majority of British muslims are peaceful people etc etc."

I propose an new bit of schpiel:

"The vast majority of people who write about and/or make explosives are peaceful people who do so only to satisfy their own curiosity."

Are we forum going chemists not a minority that is being discriminated against?

So where's my human rights lawyer!? Courtesy of the state of course! :)

[Dave Angel]

me 234: nice comparison; witches and terrorists!

I was just watching the BBC news and they were doing an item on how the government are planning to introduce new crimes, one of which being "providing terrorist training" - These words were overlaid on a totse web page on acetone peroxide. Whether the beeb think that 'our' kinds of sites are terrorist training as they don't know anything or if the government is going to take that line I have no idea, but the cynical side of me says, well, both. I wonder if accessing sites such as this will be considered an "act of preparatory terrorism".

I find it a bit odd how it was originally thought that military explosives were used. Surely the standard analytical techniques could have been run fairly quickly to discover exactly what was used, so again, probably just the media have the wrong idea.

They’re probably the people who you should really hate most about this.”—Dawn/The Guardian News Service.
Sure because, limited to stick and stones, someone who hated another group of people that much wouldn't go and beat their brains out. He'd say "oh well, no explosives so no jihad." :rolleyes:

History is full of religious conflict where one group of people killed others due to hatred, explosives only became available relatively recently.

The other thing about this you hear over and over again:

"The vast majority of British muslims are peaceful people etc etc."

I propose an new bit of schpiel:

"The vast majority of people who write about and/or make explosives are peaceful people who do so only to satisfy their own curiosity."

Are we forum going chemists not a minority that is being discriminated against?

So where's my human rights lawyer!? Courtesy of the state of course! :)

[Jacks Complete]

They’re probably the people who you should really hate most about this.”—Dawn/The Guardian News Service.

That's right, because the tool, and the inventor of the tool, are the danger, not the user who kills with it... And hatred for people is the obvious way to stop terrorists, isn't it?

And is typing or clicking "homemade nuke" into a search box going to be "an act preparatory to terror"? Are we going to need to run this forum as an https: server? Would *that* be terroristic? "Oh my God! Encryption!"

Is reading a review of the Ring, or See Saw? Or buying a ticket for someone else? And I say that only slightly tongue in cheek...

And we might just need to change the bit at the top, on our banner:

"Best read up on swords and ploughshares, before reading about them is an illegal act too!"

[Jacks Complete]

They’re probably the people who you should really hate most about this.”—Dawn/The Guardian News Service.

That's right, because the tool, and the inventor of the tool, are the danger, not the user who kills with it... And hatred for people is the obvious way to stop terrorists, isn't it?

And is typing or clicking "homemade nuke" into a search box going to be "an act preparatory to terror"? Are we going to need to run this forum as an https: server? Would *that* be terroristic? "Oh my God! Encryption!"

Is reading a review of the Ring, or See Saw? Or buying a ticket for someone else? And I say that only slightly tongue in cheek...

And we might just need to change the bit at the top, on our banner:

"Best read up on swords and ploughshares, before reading about them is an illegal act too!"

[nummi]

Mother of Satan???

Wikipedia Encyclopedia: "TATP is sometimes referred to as "Mother of Satan" by Islamic extremists of its instability and power... some 40 Palestinians are estimated to have been killed when the explosive detonated spontaneously and prematurely while been handled" :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide

http://www.vicmord.com/newsletter/january02newsletter1.html

[nummi]

Mother of Satan???

Wikipedia Encyclopedia: "TATP is sometimes referred to as "Mother of Satan" by Islamic extremists of its instability and power... some 40 Palestinians are estimated to have been killed when the explosive detonated spontaneously and prematurely while been handled" :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide

http://www.vicmord.com/newsletter/january02newsletter1.html

[me234]

WTF?
Anybody here ever mixed AP/PETN???
I don't think so. Why would anyone want to make PETN MORE sensitive?
Fucking newspapers! First they deny the idea of a New World Order with regards to government, but now they're telling everyone that there is just one man behind all the anarchist crapbooks in the world. Kaiser Soze exists, but only with regards to terrorism, most certainly not the government. Fucking morons!

And providing terrorist training!!! Oh fuck me.
So now a father can't show his kid what happens when you mix HTH and milk? Why you ask? But of course because now that that child has the knowledge and the ability to do bad things, most obviously he shall go forth and sin with this knowledge.
Why do they not trust their citizens? Why do they insist on treating us like children who have no sense of responsibility? Don't they know that we are by far more responsible and conscience of the consequences of our actions than anyone else our ages? Let a small batch of AP slip out your fingers once, see if you'll let it happen a second time?
By allowing us to assume more responsibility we automatically become more responsible. Especially the with the shit we 'dream' up, one slip and the rest of your life is altered for ever. Now THAT knowledge promotes the rapid development of responsibility.
That dude with his shoes packed with stuff, did he really pack his shoes with AP? And he actually walked on these shoes? To quote the Boondock Saints: 'What a fockin' idiot!'
See, that's what happens when you restrict us, a guy makes one batch and he thinks he knows about it.

Mother of Satan? Never fucking heard of it, who is it, Bush? Blair? President Mrs Clinton?
I just Googled it, not a SINGLE link to any form of instructions and website such as ours on the entire of the first 3 pages, only a Wikipedia reference.
the rest of the first 3 pages you ask? All news articles!
Where do they think this shit up?
Dammit fellow forumites, I am now thoroughly pissed off!
I wonder what the petty paper people would say if someone had to kill 10 000 people with a butter knife!

Crap, maybe I should remove that last bit, the papers will definitely come out with 'terrorists advocating mass slaughter of innocent people'. Or maybe they'd downplay it because it's not involving a gun or explosive or a weapon of moss destruction like NaClO3.

Why are people now professing hate as an answer? What ever happened to peaceful negotiations etc being the answer?

You guys know what? This is exactly what Hitler did!
He caused a lot of shit, then specifically named one group of people to hate. By giving the people a common enemy it drew them closer together and gave them a single idea to get caught up on so that all other happenings wouldn't be focussed on. Such as oh, I don't know, hmmm, maybe, well FREEDOM!!!
We are now the common enemy, the war in Iraq must be loosing steam with regards to popularity. The sheeple will now hate us, and be united in their stand against us. They will gladly give up their rights as we are a dangerous people and so they must withstand a little hardship to bring us to justice.

Hereno, they are blissful in their ignorance, whereas we are distraught in our knowledge, but, dammit, we are having a shitload more fun than they are right now, So the jokes on them!

I wonder what happened at Canary Wharf that they're downplaying it? They'll probably have some huge revelation from that incident right about the time that the effects of the train/bus bombs starts to wear off.

[me234]

WTF?
Anybody here ever mixed AP/PETN???
I don't think so. Why would anyone want to make PETN MORE sensitive?
Fucking newspapers! First they deny the idea of a New World Order with regards to government, but now they're telling everyone that there is just one man behind all the anarchist crapbooks in the world. Kaiser Soze exists, but only with regards to terrorism, most certainly not the government. Fucking morons!

And providing terrorist training!!! Oh fuck me.
So now a father can't show his kid what happens when you mix HTH and milk? Why you ask? But of course because now that that child has the knowledge and the ability to do bad things, most obviously he shall go forth and sin with this knowledge.
Why do they not trust their citizens? Why do they insist on treating us like children who have no sense of responsibility? Don't they know that we are by far more responsible and conscience of the consequences of our actions than anyone else our ages? Let a small batch of AP slip out your fingers once, see if you'll let it happen a second time?
By allowing us to assume more responsibility we automatically become more responsible. Especially the with the shit we 'dream' up, one slip and the rest of your life is altered for ever. Now THAT knowledge promotes the rapid development of responsibility.
That dude with his shoes packed with stuff, did he really pack his shoes with AP? And he actually walked on these shoes? To quote the Boondock Saints: 'What a fockin' idiot!'
See, that's what happens when you restrict us, a guy makes one batch and he thinks he knows about it.

Mother of Satan? Never fucking heard of it, who is it, Bush? Blair? President Mrs Clinton?
I just Googled it, not a SINGLE link to any form of instructions and website such as ours on the entire of the first 3 pages, only a Wikipedia reference.
the rest of the first 3 pages you ask? All news articles!
Where do they think this shit up?
Dammit fellow forumites, I am now thoroughly pissed off!
I wonder what the petty paper people would say if someone had to kill 10 000 people with a butter knife!

Crap, maybe I should remove that last bit, the papers will definitely come out with 'terrorists advocating mass slaughter of innocent people'. Or maybe they'd downplay it because it's not involving a gun or explosive or a weapon of moss destruction like NaClO3.

Why are people now professing hate as an answer? What ever happened to peaceful negotiations etc being the answer?

You guys know what? This is exactly what Hitler did!
He caused a lot of shit, then specifically named one group of people to hate. By giving the people a common enemy it drew them closer together and gave them a single idea to get caught up on so that all other happenings wouldn't be focussed on. Such as oh, I don't know, hmmm, maybe, well FREEDOM!!!
We are now the common enemy, the war in Iraq must be loosing steam with regards to popularity. The sheeple will now hate us, and be united in their stand against us. They will gladly give up their rights as we are a dangerous people and so they must withstand a little hardship to bring us to justice.

Hereno, they are blissful in their ignorance, whereas we are distraught in our knowledge, but, dammit, we are having a shitload more fun than they are right now, So the jokes on them!

I wonder what happened at Canary Wharf that they're downplaying it? They'll probably have some huge revelation from that incident right about the time that the effects of the train/bus bombs starts to wear off.

[nbk2000]

@me234:
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/07/london_transpor.html

We all know that reporters are morons when it comes to technology, even more so to E&W, so they just spout whatever incorrect crap they're feed some some police spokescock who's only a few cells more evolved than a slime slug.

Massive smoke clouds? Not in any picture I've seen. Not even smouldering smoke.

Compare the pictures of the people from the tubes with pictures of people from first WTC bombing, or OKC, or most other bombings using REAL explosives. Lots of soot and burns, eh? Where's those injuries in the London bombings? A lot of cuts from debris, but almost no burns or smoke/soot. Thus, an oxygen positive explosive, which most military explosives are not, unless they've added additional fuels, but that increases the heat, meaning burns and fires, of which there were none.

[nbk2000]

@me234:
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/07/london_transpor.html

We all know that reporters are morons when it comes to technology, even more so to E&W, so they just spout whatever incorrect crap they're feed some some police spokescock who's only a few cells more evolved than a slime slug.

Massive smoke clouds? Not in any picture I've seen. Not even smouldering smoke.

Compare the pictures of the people from the tubes with pictures of people from first WTC bombing, or OKC, or most other bombings using REAL explosives. Lots of soot and burns, eh? Where's those injuries in the London bombings? A lot of cuts from debris, but almost no burns or smoke/soot. Thus, an oxygen positive explosive, which most military explosives are not, unless they've added additional fuels, but that increases the heat, meaning burns and fires, of which there were none.

[tomu]

The guy they have arrested in Aegypt Magdi el-Nashar holds a Ph.D. in Biochemistry, so I guess he didn't need totse or any other source on the Net to brew some TATP.

Interessting enough with his qualification he would have been able to make at least some crude bio weapon. Even if this bio attack wouldn't have been very efficient the media would have gone crazy and the people as well. This could have been a real shocker.

I guess Al-Quaida isn't as really worth all hype, the IRA would have done much better.

[tomu]

The guy they have arrested in Aegypt Magdi el-Nashar holds a Ph.D. in Biochemistry, so I guess he didn't need totse or any other source on the Net to brew some TATP.

Interessting enough with his qualification he would have been able to make at least some crude bio weapon. Even if this bio attack wouldn't have been very efficient the media would have gone crazy and the people as well. This could have been a real shocker.

I guess Al-Quaida isn't as really worth all hype, the IRA would have done much better.

[Jacks Complete]

The IRA *did* do much better! Canary Wharf for one.

No need for ID cards to fight them, though, and they were even white and didn't wear turbans!

Of course, the Irish will never need ID cards in the UK due to an old agreement, so it wouldn't have helped then any more than it would have helped last week...

[Jacks Complete]

The IRA *did* do much better! Canary Wharf for one.

No need for ID cards to fight them, though, and they were even white and didn't wear turbans!

Of course, the Irish will never need ID cards in the UK due to an old agreement, so it wouldn't have helped then any more than it would have helped last week...

[tomu]

@Jacks Complete

Totally right, ID cards will have no effect whatsoever on terrorism.

In Germany ID cards exist for ages and everyone is required to have one (or a valid passport) it didn't have any effects on the terrorists in the sixties and seventies and it will have no effect today.

The newer ID cards are pretty hard to fake, at least professionell printing equipment is needed to fake them, but pretty good faked ID cards made in fromer Yugoslavia and Poland are on the market. And passport from other countries are readily available, especially to ragheads.

Btw. the perpetrators where only identified so quickly because they carried ID papers on them. Only, because of these ID's which where found on the scene by the police they could be IDed so quickly.

ID's are just to control the lawabiding people.

[tomu]

@Jacks Complete

Totally right, ID cards will have no effect whatsoever on terrorism.

In Germany ID cards exist for ages and everyone is required to have one (or a valid passport) it didn't have any effects on the terrorists in the sixties and seventies and it will have no effect today.

The newer ID cards are pretty hard to fake, at least professionell printing equipment is needed to fake them, but pretty good faked ID cards made in fromer Yugoslavia and Poland are on the market. And passport from other countries are readily available, especially to ragheads.

Btw. the perpetrators where only identified so quickly because they carried ID papers on them. Only, because of these ID's which where found on the scene by the police they could be IDed so quickly.

ID's are just to control the lawabiding people.

[Jacks Complete]

Wow, another "incident"! Two weeks to the day since the first bombings, and there are a series of bombs going off in London, again...

First reports say that it was just detonators, but it was, again, three trains and a bus!

Perhaps they didn't get the right guy?

[Jacks Complete]

Wow, another "incident"! Two weeks to the day since the first bombings, and there are a series of bombs going off in London, again...

First reports say that it was just detonators, but it was, again, three trains and a bus!

Perhaps they didn't get the right guy?

[tomu]

Strange thing, isn't it?

I mean you don't have to be a rocket scientist to make a bomb and blow yourself and a someonelse to smithereens.

Maybe the idiots used some hard to detonate stuff like some kind of Ammonium Nitrate Fuel mixture ANFO type explosive (it seems to me they haven't discoverd Nitric Esters jet) and failed to detonate it with to little TATP in the caps and the booster.

Imagine the surprise of the wannabe suicide bombers. I really hope the blasts were strong enough to blow at least their own dicks off.

[tomu]

Strange thing, isn't it?

I mean you don't have to be a rocket scientist to make a bomb and blow yourself and a someonelse to smithereens.

Maybe the idiots used some hard to detonate stuff like some kind of Ammonium Nitrate Fuel mixture ANFO type explosive (it seems to me they haven't discoverd Nitric Esters jet) and failed to detonate it with to little TATP in the caps and the booster.

Imagine the surprise of the wannabe suicide bombers. I really hope the blasts were strong enough to blow at least their own dicks off.

[tom haggen]

I highly doubt these individuals are using ANFO type explosives.

[tom haggen]

I highly doubt these individuals are using ANFO type explosives.

[K9]

Front page of the newspaper here today has in big letters "4 - acetone peroxide bombs" as well as the number of incidents, people killed/hurt etc.

[K9]

Front page of the newspaper here today has in big letters "4 - acetone peroxide bombs" as well as the number of incidents, people killed/hurt etc.

[me234]

"London mass transit passengers Thursday reported a distinct chemical smell during the attacks, which officials say is further evidence the chemicals were badly mixed or degraded. It may also explain why the bombers two weeks ago had spent more than$1,000 on men's cologne, apparently hoping to hide the smell."
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/LondonBlasts/story?id=966879

What is wrong with these officials? A 'distinct chemical smell'... and they've already said it was AP, so now AP only smells bad if the synth was screwed up?
Obviously they never had as enjoyable July 4th's as some of esteemed colleagues here on the forum.

I really hope they weren't using AP for the second set of bombs, because if they
1- Used a primary explosive as the main charge, %/or
2- Fucked up igniting AP
Then I'm going to have lost any thoughts I had about them knowing just what the hell they are doing.

'"We can't minimize incidents such as this," he said at a news conference with the Australian prime minister. "They're done to scare people, to frighten them and make them worried." '
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=965475

He's exactly right, and he's being honest too, but...
What he doesn't mention is who the people that're doing this are, or at any rate who is letting them do this. Once the people are worried...

'New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg said police will begin conducting random searches of packages and backpacks of people entering the city's subway, which carries about 4.5 million passengers on the average weekday. Officials would not immediately say how frequently the checks would occur. '

Now america is getting in on the act, and they've already started the invasion of privacy, but with recent incidents, I bet there'll be surprisingly few complaints about people giving up their rights, most will be happy to lose them.
Like Orwell said, it is beneficial for all states to be in a continual state of war: makes it easier to suppress the people.

"I'm resigned to the fact that this is going to happen again," 37-year-old John said, adding he had counted 13 large bags in his underground train carriage.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=966988

He didn't wait very long did he? He's already practically begging the police to let him grass on everyone he sees that isn't an ideal conformist.


Read this:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=965140
Those who do not consent will be refused entry.
It's just a way of life says Mr William K. Williams. Oh, well then it must be all right.
It is necessary they say!
I can't wait to see what they come up with next, licences for buying hair bleach?

Why, oh why, couldn't I have been born during the 20's when there was just prohibition?

[me234]

"London mass transit passengers Thursday reported a distinct chemical smell during the attacks, which officials say is further evidence the chemicals were badly mixed or degraded. It may also explain why the bombers two weeks ago had spent more than$1,000 on men's cologne, apparently hoping to hide the smell."
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/LondonBlasts/story?id=966879

What is wrong with these officials? A 'distinct chemical smell'... and they've already said it was AP, so now AP only smells bad if the synth was screwed up?
Obviously they never had as enjoyable July 4th's as some of esteemed colleagues here on the forum.

I really hope they weren't using AP for the second set of bombs, because if they
1- Used a primary explosive as the main charge, %/or
2- Fucked up igniting AP
Then I'm going to have lost any thoughts I had about them knowing just what the hell they are doing.

'"We can't minimize incidents such as this," he said at a news conference with the Australian prime minister. "They're done to scare people, to frighten them and make them worried." '
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=965475

He's exactly right, and he's being honest too, but...
What he doesn't mention is who the people that're doing this are, or at any rate who is letting them do this. Once the people are worried...

'New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg said police will begin conducting random searches of packages and backpacks of people entering the city's subway, which carries about 4.5 million passengers on the average weekday. Officials would not immediately say how frequently the checks would occur. '

Now america is getting in on the act, and they've already started the invasion of privacy, but with recent incidents, I bet there'll be surprisingly few complaints about people giving up their rights, most will be happy to lose them.
Like Orwell said, it is beneficial for all states to be in a continual state of war: makes it easier to suppress the people.

"I'm resigned to the fact that this is going to happen again," 37-year-old John said, adding he had counted 13 large bags in his underground train carriage.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=966988

He didn't wait very long did he? He's already practically begging the police to let him grass on everyone he sees that isn't an ideal conformist.


Read this:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=965140
Those who do not consent will be refused entry.
It's just a way of life says Mr William K. Williams. Oh, well then it must be all right.
It is necessary they say!
I can't wait to see what they come up with next, licences for buying hair bleach?

Why, oh why, couldn't I have been born during the 20's when there was just prohibition?

[bangerman]

I just saw the picture of the explosives used on the bus bomb yesterday,that failed to go off.

To me it looked like just the det had gone off and just blew a hole in the package.

It looked like ground AN, looked yellowish,maybe some NM had been mixed in or they had burned it a bit when they were drying the AN.

Whoever made these devices were either in a hurry and failed to mix the AN properly or the dets they used were too small to set off there main charge.

[bangerman]

I just saw the picture of the explosives used on the bus bomb yesterday,that failed to go off.

To me it looked like just the det had gone off and just blew a hole in the package.

It looked like ground AN, looked yellowish,maybe some NM had been mixed in or they had burned it a bit when they were drying the AN.

Whoever made these devices were either in a hurry and failed to mix the AN properly or the dets they used were too small to set off there main charge.

[Dave Angel]

There was another theory going round about the cologne being used - supposedly it was to create a firebomb effect due to it's alcoholic content. The theory was that they were using products of our own over-indulgent world to kill us. Oh how terribly ironic! It was completely lost on me... I was just thinking how much cheaper it would be to use methylated spirits!

For those who haven't heard, police have shot some asian guy dead on an underground train. He had a rather thick coat on according to one eyewitness. Of course the first thing the Muslim council wants to know is why was this done instead of him being arrested! They are almost hoping for an innocent asian guy to be shot so they can jump on the police for discrimination.

They are pretty sure AP or some mixture involving it was used as the main charge, it doesn't surprise me much given how easy it is to get large quantities of the precursor materials and how foolproof it is to set off (I know - these terrorists must be sufficient fools). Anyway, the media are quite enjoying throwing the AP buzzword around so perhaps we'll hear more about the exact composition in time to come.

It was nice to see one person questioned by the news media say that she thinks that no amount of extra security will prevent terrorist attacks, and we just have to get on with it.

That's one less potential 'please take my freedoms' sheeple.

[Dave Angel]

There was another theory going round about the cologne being used - supposedly it was to create a firebomb effect due to it's alcoholic content. The theory was that they were using products of our own over-indulgent world to kill us. Oh how terribly ironic! It was completely lost on me... I was just thinking how much cheaper it would be to use methylated spirits!

For those who haven't heard, police have shot some asian guy dead on an underground train. He had a rather thick coat on according to one eyewitness. Of course the first thing the Muslim council wants to know is why was this done instead of him being arrested! They are almost hoping for an innocent asian guy to be shot so they can jump on the police for discrimination.

They are pretty sure AP or some mixture involving it was used as the main charge, it doesn't surprise me much given how easy it is to get large quantities of the precursor materials and how foolproof it is to set off (I know - these terrorists must be sufficient fools). Anyway, the media are quite enjoying throwing the AP buzzword around so perhaps we'll hear more about the exact composition in time to come.

It was nice to see one person questioned by the news media say that she thinks that no amount of extra security will prevent terrorist attacks, and we just have to get on with it.

That's one less potential 'please take my freedoms' sheeple.

[FUTI]

I agree about those failed explosion looking suspiciously like MI5 job, or other terroristic group composed only of complete idiots who don't test their device before action. One failed explosion OK, but 4! You can guess what are the odds for something like that.
About IDs that won't change a thing. False or true one they can be obtained. As for the look of perpertrators...I saw they shot an Asian guy today, here people mention Arabs, but there is larger Muslim population than that and some of them aren't that distinctive looking like the one mentioned.

[FUTI]

I agree about those failed explosion looking suspiciously like MI5 job, or other terroristic group composed only of complete idiots who don't test their device before action. One failed explosion OK, but 4! You can guess what are the odds for something like that.
About IDs that won't change a thing. False or true one they can be obtained. As for the look of perpertrators...I saw they shot an Asian guy today, here people mention Arabs, but there is larger Muslim population than that and some of them aren't that distinctive looking like the one mentioned.

[megalomania]

References to acetone peroxide exist since the late 19th century, I would hardly characterize AP as a new comer! Of course 10 years is probably the average sheeples memory span, so naturally it was that darned Internet that did it.

Wouldn’t writing a news article saying there is an easy to make explosive with instructions readily available on the Internet also be bad form? And AP is not “one of the most sensitive explosives known,” there are countless thousands of explosives that will explode with no more than a cross look. In the grand scheme of all explosives AP rather stable. I think that bit about a chemistry graduate having the skills to make the stuff may be to discourage the kewls, or more likely the article was written by some English major who never had to take a chemistry class in his life, so the thought of making any kind of chemical must seem to him the mysterious providence of professional chemists.

I just know every time someone mentions acetone peroxide in an article hundreds of kewls fire up their browsers… I just did and there is a very well written article (google hit #1) at wikipedia that, if I am not mistaken, has stolen the chemical graphic for AP from my website (I drew it myself in ChemWeb). No links to my site of course :(

Now I hear the terrorists have struck again with more bombs. This is truly effective “terrorism” because even if no one got hurt, it has resulted in the complete stagnation of the London public transportation system. People are more likely to be upset by getting to work or home late than they are by fearing getting blown up. Sure enough the bombs failed to go off, so these guys don’t exactly have any quality control going on, but they got the point across. I wonder if they know AP does not make for a very effective detonator? Depending on the explosive of course.

If the government starts restricting too many freedoms it will eventually spawn more terrorism. Remember, McVeigh bombed the Oklahoma Federal building as revenge for Waco. I wonder how many militia members started stocking up on additional weapons and ammunition when the patriot act was passed? How many Forum members have burned CDs of knowledge and buried them in secret caches in preparation for the day when such knowledge will be forbidden?

The Vietnam War bred an entire generation of malcontents that eventually toppled the status quo of staid oppressive 50’s era government. Freethinkers emerged and there was sex in the streets. Well those hippies are the status quo now, with mortgages, 401ks, and SUVs; their comeuppance is neigh.

About the IRA, the BBC news service reported the bombings were the worst attack on English soil since WWII. I find that hard to believe since the IRA is as good as they come. I am not familiar with all of their bombings, but there must have been quite a few.

In the end adding extra security merely DETERS terrorism, it does not PREVENT it. Adding security in one area means manpower must be siphoned from another. Unless the government radically increases its budget to train, equip, and field all these extra agents/cops/soldiers there will be security lapses in other sectors. Today it is subways, tomorrow it is schools, the next day it is factories, the day after that it is gas stations… The list of targets goes on and on.

[megalomania]

References to acetone peroxide exist since the late 19th century, I would hardly characterize AP as a new comer! Of course 10 years is probably the average sheeples memory span, so naturally it was that darned Internet that did it.

Wouldn’t writing a news article saying there is an easy to make explosive with instructions readily available on the Internet also be bad form? And AP is not “one of the most sensitive explosives known,” there are countless thousands of explosives that will explode with no more than a cross look. In the grand scheme of all explosives AP rather stable. I think that bit about a chemistry graduate having the skills to make the stuff may be to discourage the kewls, or more likely the article was written by some English major who never had to take a chemistry class in his life, so the thought of making any kind of chemical must seem to him the mysterious providence of professional chemists.

I just know every time someone mentions acetone peroxide in an article hundreds of kewls fire up their browsers… I just did and there is a very well written article (google hit #1) at wikipedia that, if I am not mistaken, has stolen the chemical graphic for AP from my website (I drew it myself in ChemWeb). No links to my site of course :(

Now I hear the terrorists have struck again with more bombs. This is truly effective “terrorism” because even if no one got hurt, it has resulted in the complete stagnation of the London public transportation system. People are more likely to be upset by getting to work or home late than they are by fearing getting blown up. Sure enough the bombs failed to go off, so these guys don’t exactly have any quality control going on, but they got the point across. I wonder if they know AP does not make for a very effective detonator? Depending on the explosive of course.

If the government starts restricting too many freedoms it will eventually spawn more terrorism. Remember, McVeigh bombed the Oklahoma Federal building as revenge for Waco. I wonder how many militia members started stocking up on additional weapons and ammunition when the patriot act was passed? How many Forum members have burned CDs of knowledge and buried them in secret caches in preparation for the day when such knowledge will be forbidden?

The Vietnam War bred an entire generation of malcontents that eventually toppled the status quo of staid oppressive 50’s era government. Freethinkers emerged and there was sex in the streets. Well those hippies are the status quo now, with mortgages, 401ks, and SUVs; their comeuppance is neigh.

About the IRA, the BBC news service reported the bombings were the worst attack on English soil since WWII. I find that hard to believe since the IRA is as good as they come. I am not familiar with all of their bombings, but there must have been quite a few.

In the end adding extra security merely DETERS terrorism, it does not PREVENT it. Adding security in one area means manpower must be siphoned from another. Unless the government radically increases its budget to train, equip, and field all these extra agents/cops/soldiers there will be security lapses in other sectors. Today it is subways, tomorrow it is schools, the next day it is factories, the day after that it is gas stations… The list of targets goes on and on.

[Jacks Complete]

TATP is fairly sensitive, though. Certainly a coat full of it would explode if hit with a bullet!

It will be fun, though. The suicide bombers will simply blow themselves up when they get stopped by the armed police checkpoints, killing a lot of cops. Meanwhile, every last Muslim (or anyone with a suntan) will avoid the checkpoints as best they can, as they won't want a harrassing stop every time.

The one thing you can say is, that unlike Isreal, here you can just buy a radio system over the counter at most supermarkets and electronics shops, so having a second person with a second trip, who can blow the bomb once the police move in the arrest, or even after they have shot the bomb mule! Heart-rate monitors are easily available, too, so that's another option. If they have $1000 to waste on aftershave, they could get 25 or so radio controls and heart rate monitors!

I love the way that "the lessons are learned internationally" too. The easy way to turn America into a police state is now to bomb London! wtf? How much better could we make it for the terrorists, as we willingly and happily give up our freedoms for state sanctioned safety?

[Jacks Complete]

TATP is fairly sensitive, though. Certainly a coat full of it would explode if hit with a bullet!

It will be fun, though. The suicide bombers will simply blow themselves up when they get stopped by the armed police checkpoints, killing a lot of cops. Meanwhile, every last Muslim (or anyone with a suntan) will avoid the checkpoints as best they can, as they won't want a harrassing stop every time.

The one thing you can say is, that unlike Isreal, here you can just buy a radio system over the counter at most supermarkets and electronics shops, so having a second person with a second trip, who can blow the bomb once the police move in the arrest, or even after they have shot the bomb mule! Heart-rate monitors are easily available, too, so that's another option. If they have $1000 to waste on aftershave, they could get 25 or so radio controls and heart rate monitors!

I love the way that "the lessons are learned internationally" too. The easy way to turn America into a police state is now to bomb London! wtf? How much better could we make it for the terrorists, as we willingly and happily give up our freedoms for state sanctioned safety?

[nbk2000]

Jack, I was wondering about something...

The 70 people who dies after the first bombings, if the time of death (in hours after the bombing) was graphed, would it be a spike with a tapering-off, or a sharply rising curve, or a step where nobody died in the first 12 hours and then almost everyone died within an hour or two of each other.

If it was the spike or the step, that'd STRONGLY imply a CW agent or poison being used.

As for AP...if you can't set that off, you need to go lay down in front of a train, because you're already brain dead. :)

It could be that the second 'wave' of dud bombs were set up by MI5 or whoever. After all, it wouldn't do for the herd to get back to normal! You want the herd to be constantly terrified of the big bad Turban! All the better to rape your freedoms with! :p

[nbk2000]

Jack, I was wondering about something...

The 70 people who dies after the first bombings, if the time of death (in hours after the bombing) was graphed, would it be a spike with a tapering-off, or a sharply rising curve, or a step where nobody died in the first 12 hours and then almost everyone died within an hour or two of each other.

If it was the spike or the step, that'd STRONGLY imply a CW agent or poison being used.

As for AP...if you can't set that off, you need to go lay down in front of a train, because you're already brain dead. :)

It could be that the second 'wave' of dud bombs were set up by MI5 or whoever. After all, it wouldn't do for the herd to get back to normal! You want the herd to be constantly terrified of the big bad Turban! All the better to rape your freedoms with! :p

[blackone]

I'm going for the ANFO theory too, since I don't believe in a main charge of AP not detonating either.
As Megalomania said, AP isn't a very good detonator, and even as a booster charge it only works on some ANFOs.
Since all 4 bombs in the last attack failed, and all 4 bombs in the first attack worked fine I think that 2 different groups are responsible - possibly with lose ties to each other. Reason: It must have been a bad design in the second attack, and since the group responsible for the first attack obviously knew how to make bombs they wouldn't have failed on their second attack.
(Unless of course the main charge of the first attack was AP based and they didn't have much AP for the second attack, then decided to try ANFO)

[blackone]

I'm going for the ANFO theory too, since I don't believe in a main charge of AP not detonating either.
As Megalomania said, AP isn't a very good detonator, and even as a booster charge it only works on some ANFOs.
Since all 4 bombs in the last attack failed, and all 4 bombs in the first attack worked fine I think that 2 different groups are responsible - possibly with lose ties to each other. Reason: It must have been a bad design in the second attack, and since the group responsible for the first attack obviously knew how to make bombs they wouldn't have failed on their second attack.
(Unless of course the main charge of the first attack was AP based and they didn't have much AP for the second attack, then decided to try ANFO)

[megalomania]

I think the second series of bombs used acetone peroxide detonators, which did go off, but the main charge was something else. The AP detonators were simply not up the task of setting off the explosive. The British authorities have apparently obtained the undetonated explosives intact and will be examining them for the bomb makers "signature." I have not heard what the main charge was, just that the dets were AP.

Funny how they have that preperation to terrorism bill handy and are shoving it through approval isn't it? I am suprised there was not an attack in the US to push all of the provisions of the Patriot Act renewal through. Of course the hitlerites who wrote the Patriot Act are using the occasion of the London bombing to their advantage.

[megalomania]

I think the second series of bombs used acetone peroxide detonators, which did go off, but the main charge was something else. The AP detonators were simply not up the task of setting off the explosive. The British authorities have apparently obtained the undetonated explosives intact and will be examining them for the bomb makers "signature." I have not heard what the main charge was, just that the dets were AP.

Funny how they have that preperation to terrorism bill handy and are shoving it through approval isn't it? I am suprised there was not an attack in the US to push all of the provisions of the Patriot Act renewal through. Of course the hitlerites who wrote the Patriot Act are using the occasion of the London bombing to their advantage.

[Jacks Complete]

Well, the "ring of steel" emergency provisions after the last big bomb in London (IRA) are still in place, even though the (slow moving) peace process has been going for years now. Yet still they failed to stop the terrorists.

They have brought in a new "anti-terror" law every year for five years, and the newest one has been sitting ready. It was rejected in part last time, so this will ensure it goes through.

NBK, I don't know of anyone who has that data. Newspaper reports were so muddled and full of dis-information that it wasn't possible to learn anything useful. The main charge for the first bombs was TATP, as far as I have read. I have to assume the second lot were, too, until I hear otherwise.

Everyone is sickened by the shooting of a man at point blank, because some plain clothes police (SAS?) follwed this guy from a block of flats (where one of the bombers lived) onto a bus, then, when he got off the bus and headed towards the tube, they decided that his puffy jacket meant he was a bomber. They pulled guns, started yelling, and he legged it, jumped the barrier, and got on a train.

He was, apparently, face down on the floor in a train carriage with five plainclothed police around him, when he was shot in the back of the head five times.

He was not carrying a bomb.

Several small steps is all it takes to get to a police state. Most of those have been taken.

[Jacks Complete]

Well, the "ring of steel" emergency provisions after the last big bomb in London (IRA) are still in place, even though the (slow moving) peace process has been going for years now. Yet still they failed to stop the terrorists.

They have brought in a new "anti-terror" law every year for five years, and the newest one has been sitting ready. It was rejected in part last time, so this will ensure it goes through.

NBK, I don't know of anyone who has that data. Newspaper reports were so muddled and full of dis-information that it wasn't possible to learn anything useful. The main charge for the first bombs was TATP, as far as I have read. I have to assume the second lot were, too, until I hear otherwise.

Everyone is sickened by the shooting of a man at point blank, because some plain clothes police (SAS?) follwed this guy from a block of flats (where one of the bombers lived) onto a bus, then, when he got off the bus and headed towards the tube, they decided that his puffy jacket meant he was a bomber. They pulled guns, started yelling, and he legged it, jumped the barrier, and got on a train.

He was, apparently, face down on the floor in a train carriage with five plainclothed police around him, when he was shot in the back of the head five times.

He was not carrying a bomb.

Several small steps is all it takes to get to a police state. Most of those have been taken.

[megalomania]

It's guilty until proven innocent over there right? An incident like that over here would almost certainly mean a multi-million dollar lawsuit, especially if it was a negro that got shot (even if said negro was armed and aimed his weapon at police). I also thought the usual British police officer did not carry a firearm, am I right?

I am all for gun control, but lets start with the military and secret agencies first. I'll give up my gun after they do.

[megalomania]

It's guilty until proven innocent over there right? An incident like that over here would almost certainly mean a multi-million dollar lawsuit, especially if it was a negro that got shot (even if said negro was armed and aimed his weapon at police). I also thought the usual British police officer did not carry a firearm, am I right?

I am all for gun control, but lets start with the military and secret agencies first. I'll give up my gun after they do.

[tiac03]

Probably got humid out, Hell being in a rush one night to "experiment" with an Afro-engineered shaped charge and half of a watermellon (and a vid cam to document the stupidities (Yeah dumb as fuck I know, But it was late, spur of the moment and the mellon was starting to rot.) I managed to actually set off my AP cap (just a straw) in my charge of AP and simply have it scatter the ap all over the place. When I picked up the container with half the AP left in it, the stuff was damp as hell. (Same thing happened with my second APAN test, It was so damp that it left my hands wet when I went to assess the failure.
The Damp caps went off in both cases because they were pressed more than the charge (mind you not as well as dry caps would) but the main charges wouldn't.
Which is also why most of this summer was spent making picks and picking locks rather than experimenting more. (Goddamned humid summer, dehumidifier runs 24/7)

So knowing them they probably were in too much of a hurry to ensure it was dry after manufactor, or just to ensure that it would be sealed against humidity. (Seeing as the bobbies were on their heals hehehe).


And then getting back to the media's ignorance, they are constantly spewing out crap just to make the sheep that listen to it, listen even more.

News:"They had a chemist make it".
sheep: WOW they needed a chemist to make the explosives for them, very well planned!

what it should have said:
News: What a bunch of retards, carrying AP around in those quantities, too bad one didn't get hit by a car on the way. And how can that guy call himself a chemist if the only explosive he could think of making could have been made by his 8 yr old nephew.

Sheep: 8 yr olds can make bombs? *mass hysteria ensues*


They did the same shit with the washington sniper.

"The weapon the washington sniper was using requires 2 full weeks of training to learn to shoot" -some dumbass in my math class at the time who decided to paraphrase some news channel.

sheep: Holy shit this guy is a real military sniper, what a professional.

It was a goddamned ar15 ripoff. I can train a monkey to shoot someone with one in ten minutes flat.

They were smart removing back seats and shooting through rust hole in trunk.
Christ they were black, their car didn't have to be fitted with those "special options" they come standard.....

Media has no shame, it will spoon feed pigshit to you and call it news if they think that it will boost ratings. Bunch of Tools.

[tiac03]

Probably got humid out, Hell being in a rush one night to "experiment" with an Afro-engineered shaped charge and half of a watermellon (and a vid cam to document the stupidities (Yeah dumb as fuck I know, But it was late, spur of the moment and the mellon was starting to rot.) I managed to actually set off my AP cap (just a straw) in my charge of AP and simply have it scatter the ap all over the place. When I picked up the container with half the AP left in it, the stuff was damp as hell. (Same thing happened with my second APAN test, It was so damp that it left my hands wet when I went to assess the failure.
The Damp caps went off in both cases because they were pressed more than the charge (mind you not as well as dry caps would) but the main charges wouldn't.
Which is also why most of this summer was spent making picks and picking locks rather than experimenting more. (Goddamned humid summer, dehumidifier runs 24/7)

So knowing them they probably were in too much of a hurry to ensure it was dry after manufactor, or just to ensure that it would be sealed against humidity. (Seeing as the bobbies were on their heals hehehe).


And then getting back to the media's ignorance, they are constantly spewing out crap just to make the sheep that listen to it, listen even more.

News:"They had a chemist make it".
sheep: WOW they needed a chemist to make the explosives for them, very well planned!

what it should have said:
News: What a bunch of retards, carrying AP around in those quantities, too bad one didn't get hit by a car on the way. And how can that guy call himself a chemist if the only explosive he could think of making could have been made by his 8 yr old nephew.

Sheep: 8 yr olds can make bombs? *mass hysteria ensues*


They did the same shit with the washington sniper.

"The weapon the washington sniper was using requires 2 full weeks of training to learn to shoot" -some dumbass in my math class at the time who decided to paraphrase some news channel.

sheep: Holy shit this guy is a real military sniper, what a professional.

It was a goddamned ar15 ripoff. I can train a monkey to shoot someone with one in ten minutes flat.

They were smart removing back seats and shooting through rust hole in trunk.
Christ they were black, their car didn't have to be fitted with those "special options" they come standard.....

Media has no shame, it will spoon feed pigshit to you and call it news if they think that it will boost ratings. Bunch of Tools.

[megalomania]

Sure enough I was right about the world + dog beating down our door looking for acetone peroxide stuff. The stats report we have had over 15,000 hits in the last few weeks from search engines looking for acetone peroxide. We usually only get a few hundred seekers looking for acetone peroxide a month. It also seem that just about every news service that put up a molecular graphic of TATP is using the one from my website! I don't mind, in fact I am honored my little pic has acquired a life of its own. At least they all have the decency to copy it instead of hotlinking, of course with the anti-hotlinking script running they can't. It took me years of pawing through dusty books to find a conclusive structure for TATP, and ChemWindow's cleanup feature made it that nice circular shape.

http://www.roguesci.org/megalomania/explo/acetoneperoxide.gif

One thing I am distressed about hearing everywhere is referring to AP as "the most dangerous explosive" and worse still referring to MY website for that quote (I found at least one news article with a direct link to my AP page, and another that paraphrased my site). I wrote that sentence carefully, but the emphasis does not come out with when read, only spoken. I actually wrote "acetone peroxide is ONE of the most dangerous explosives on MY website." The most dangerous explosive is actually nitrogen triiodide on MY website. Note I did not say it IS the most dangerous, only that it is ONE of the most dangerous, and that only applies to the 100 or so compounds on MY website. I specificially DO NOT include any information on my website about making extremly unstable explosives that always tend to blow up while being made, and there are quite a few of those kinds of explosives. Those can be considered "the most dangerous explosives." Granted I can see this may be nitpicking on my part as I don't expect a journalist to have the same familarity with explosives that I do. Still, saying AP is THE MOST dangerous explosive has been echoed and repeated onto countless AP (I mean assoicated press AP, not acetone peroxide AP) wire services.

EDIT: I dug a little deeper into the logs and found out that in June there were only 118 search engine hits to us for the phrase "acetone peroxide." There were very few other variations on the words, maybe 10-15. But the list for July is staggering and this is only from the past 2.5 weeks:
acetone peroxide
tatp
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c9h18o6
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peroxyde de triacétone
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tatp a crude mix of bleach drain cleaner and acetone
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tatp a crude mix of bleach drain cleaner and acetone.
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acentone peroxide
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triacetone triperoxide tatp . tatp is made from acetone and hydrogen peroxide. sulfuric acid and hydrochloric acid
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Literally tens of thousands of search engine hits are going to us for these terms! And this is only half of the list of phrases that led to us. In May the first appearance of a hit for acetone peroxide is about the 60th most requested phrase, and there were only a few dozen.

I actually have been scanning the list of search engine hits for the past year and a half now specifically looking for anything acetone peroxide related. You see acetone peroxide had been our number 1 search hit since we started The Forum. I considered it a good thing, a measure of how we have progressed as a community, the lower down on the list acetone peroxide is. Yes, lower down on the list. The more techncal explosives and other aspects of science and chemistry have been a larger draw for us the past 2 years.

Is this a relapse? Maybe not since the phrase acetone peroxide has been flogged in every newspaper and TV news program for the past few weeks. Perhaps it is fortunate we rank so high in the search results (even though TOTSE does beat my website) because we can turn all these thousands of potential new pyros onto bigger and better things from the start. A couple of years age we were just one of umpteen millions of other websites talking about AP. Today, quality has won out and we are the foremost resource for information about AP on the web. As a community we have grown far beyond mere AP, but it still remains a starting point for all the newbs to come.

[megalomania]

Sure enough I was right about the world + dog beating down our door looking for acetone peroxide stuff. The stats report we have had over 15,000 hits in the last few weeks from search engines looking for acetone peroxide. We usually only get a few hundred seekers looking for acetone peroxide a month. It also seem that just about every news service that put up a molecular graphic of TATP is using the one from my website! I don't mind, in fact I am honored my little pic has acquired a life of its own. At least they all have the decency to copy it instead of hotlinking, of course with the anti-hotlinking script running they can't. It took me years of pawing through dusty books to find a conclusive structure for TATP, and ChemWindow's cleanup feature made it that nice circular shape.

http://www.roguesci.org/megalomania/explo/acetoneperoxide.gif

One thing I am distressed about hearing everywhere is referring to AP as "the most dangerous explosive" and worse still referring to MY website for that quote (I found at least one news article with a direct link to my AP page, and another that paraphrased my site). I wrote that sentence carefully, but the emphasis does not come out with when read, only spoken. I actually wrote "acetone peroxide is ONE of the most dangerous explosives on MY website." The most dangerous explosive is actually nitrogen triiodide on MY website. Note I did not say it IS the most dangerous, only that it is ONE of the most dangerous, and that only applies to the 100 or so compounds on MY website. I specificially DO NOT include any information on my website about making extremly unstable explosives that always tend to blow up while being made, and there are quite a few of those kinds of explosives. Those can be considered "the most dangerous explosives." Granted I can see this may be nitpicking on my part as I don't expect a journalist to have the same familarity with explosives that I do. Still, saying AP is THE MOST dangerous explosive has been echoed and repeated onto countless AP (I mean assoicated press AP, not acetone peroxide AP) wire services.

EDIT: I dug a little deeper into the logs and found out that in June there were only 118 search engine hits to us for the phrase "acetone peroxide." There were very few other variations on the words, maybe 10-15. But the list for July is staggering and this is only from the past 2.5 weeks:
acetone peroxide
tatp
triacetone triperoxide
acetoneperoxide
acetone peroxide explosive
tatp synthesis
how to make acetone peroxide
making tatp
acetone and peroxide
tatp recipe
triacetonetriperoxide
tatp formula
making acetone peroxide
peroxide acetone
acetone peroxide explosives
acetone peroxide tatp
acetone-peroxide
tatp acetone peroxide
acetone peroxide synthesis
acetonperoxide
aceton peroxide
acetone peroxide mixture
transporting acetone peroxide
actone peroxide
acetone peroxide apan
c9h18o6
tatp aceton
triacetone triperoxide synthesis
acetone peroxide formula
peroxyacetone
acetone peroxide bomb
acetone explosive
tatp explosive
acitone peroxide
tatp cookbook
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triacetoneperoxide
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tatp acetone
aceton peroxyde
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tri-acetone tri-peroxide
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peroxyde de triacétone
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the making of acetone peroxide
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tatp preparation
acetone hydrogen peroxide
triacetone
triacetone triperoxide msds
acitate peroxide
apan explosive
plasticized tatp
tatp explosive formula
acetone hydrogen peroxide explosive
aceton peroxide synthesis
tetrameric acetone peroxide
tcap explosive
aceton explosive
tri aceton tri peroxide
acetone peroxyd
acetone peroxide chemistry
aceton peroxide explosive
tacp acetone
dicycloacetone peroxide
tatp a crude mix of bleach drain cleaner and acetone
acteone peroxide
tatp production
triacetone triperoxide shelf life
tatp acetone hydrogen peroxide hydrochloric acid
triacetontriperoxyde
peroxide explosive
acetone-peroxide
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acetone & peroxide
instructions for making tatp
anarchists cookbook tatp
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acetone hydrogen peroxyd
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Literally tens of thousands of search engine hits are going to us for these terms! And this is only half of the list of phrases that led to us. In May the first appearance of a hit for acetone peroxide is about the 60th most requested phrase, and there were only a few dozen.

I actually have been scanning the list of search engine hits for the past year and a half now specifically looking for anything acetone peroxide related. You see acetone peroxide had been our number 1 search hit since we started The Forum. I considered it a good thing, a measure of how we have progressed as a community, the lower down on the list acetone peroxide is. Yes, lower down on the list. The more techncal explosives and other aspects of science and chemistry have been a larger draw for us the past 2 years.

Is this a relapse? Maybe not since the phrase acetone peroxide has been flogged in every newspaper and TV news program for the past few weeks. Perhaps it is fortunate we rank so high in the search results (even though TOTSE does beat my website) because we can turn all these thousands of potential new pyros onto bigger and better things from the start. A couple of years age we were just one of umpteen millions of other websites talking about AP. Today, quality has won out and we are the foremost resource for information about AP on the web. As a community we have grown far beyond mere AP, but it still remains a starting point for all the newbs to come.

[FUTI]

Man I can't believe they shot that guy in cold blood just suspecting he might be terrorist :( even after he lay down on the floor of the train. WTF happend with suspect or presumed innocent until proven otherwise? He had a coat, so what. He was from Brazil for God sake...those guys are accomodanted to higher temperature normaly due to climate they live in (belive me I know this from experience) so English climate isn't warm for them and may look odd to Brits but I never heard someone killed someone for wrong dressing style (when they legalize that I will have a fine number of shooting targets available though). With all this net road signs pointing to us Mega mentioned, I'm considering going underground before the Crystal night. You are a chemist therefore you are guilty for practicing an art not approved by HighCouncilOfMorons sorry House of Commons, which us the MightyInquisition5 pardon MI5 are the proud defenders. And I thought we are the only one making bonefires;).

[FUTI]

Man I can't believe they shot that guy in cold blood just suspecting he might be terrorist :( even after he lay down on the floor of the train. WTF happend with suspect or presumed innocent until proven otherwise? He had a coat, so what. He was from Brazil for God sake...those guys are accomodanted to higher temperature normaly due to climate they live in (belive me I know this from experience) so English climate isn't warm for them and may look odd to Brits but I never heard someone killed someone for wrong dressing style (when they legalize that I will have a fine number of shooting targets available though). With all this net road signs pointing to us Mega mentioned, I'm considering going underground before the Crystal night. You are a chemist therefore you are guilty for practicing an art not approved by HighCouncilOfMorons sorry House of Commons, which us the MightyInquisition5 pardon MI5 are the proud defenders. And I thought we are the only one making bonefires;).

[Skean Dhu]

I heard the poor bastard tripped while evading the 'authorities', and you would too if a group of dark dressed men yelled at you to stop without identifing themselves and then started chasing down the subway, epsecially if you notice them following you out of your flat, onto the bus and down to the subway.

Now I can understand shooting him once maybe even twice, if he were reaching for something or still running, but this guy just fell on his face; and they shot him FIVE times?, thats a little excessive.
Thats downright reckless, if he were actually posing a threat, wearing a bombvest full of AP I'm positive the pistol rounds would have set it off. I hope the shooter gets fired, and sued out the wazoo

[Skean Dhu]

I heard the poor bastard tripped while evading the 'authorities', and you would too if a group of dark dressed men yelled at you to stop without identifing themselves and then started chasing down the subway, epsecially if you notice them following you out of your flat, onto the bus and down to the subway.

Now I can understand shooting him once maybe even twice, if he were reaching for something or still running, but this guy just fell on his face; and they shot him FIVE times?, thats a little excessive.
Thats downright reckless, if he were actually posing a threat, wearing a bombvest full of AP I'm positive the pistol rounds would have set it off. I hope the shooter gets fired, and sued out the wazoo

[tom haggen]

This is probably kind od stupid but I thought about conspiracy when I herd of the 7/7/05 bombings the morning it happened. I thought about the global warming agreements that were taking place, and how GW refused to sign the papers. I thought of how bombs would make it seem dangerous to take public transportation, motivating people to drive instead. This would intern take some heat of GW because people who need to dry can't afford to worry about pumping CO2 into the atmosphere.

[tom haggen]

This is probably kind od stupid but I thought about conspiracy when I herd of the 7/7/05 bombings the morning it happened. I thought about the global warming agreements that were taking place, and how GW refused to sign the papers. I thought of how bombs would make it seem dangerous to take public transportation, motivating people to drive instead. This would intern take some heat of GW because people who need to dry can't afford to worry about pumping CO2 into the atmosphere.

[tomu]

Say good bye to your civil liberties.

The Guardian reported:

"Under discussion are proposals to outlaw "indirect incitement'' of terrorism, including praising those who carry out attacks, to counter extremist Islamist clerics accused of radicalizing disaffected Muslim youth in Britain.

The law also would make it illegal to receive training in terrorist techniques in Britain or abroad, or to plan an attack and activities such as acquiring bomb-making instructions on the Internet."

With this type of law almost any activity in Chemistry, Explosives Engineering, Pyrotechnics, Weaponry and Tactics will be illegal and get you in the Big House.

It's like "being irish in a public place" in the seventies.

[tomu]

Say good bye to your civil liberties.

The Guardian reported:

"Under discussion are proposals to outlaw "indirect incitement'' of terrorism, including praising those who carry out attacks, to counter extremist Islamist clerics accused of radicalizing disaffected Muslim youth in Britain.

The law also would make it illegal to receive training in terrorist techniques in Britain or abroad, or to plan an attack and activities such as acquiring bomb-making instructions on the Internet."

With this type of law almost any activity in Chemistry, Explosives Engineering, Pyrotechnics, Weaponry and Tactics will be illegal and get you in the Big House.

It's like "being irish in a public place" in the seventies.

[megalomania]

And restricting the speech of Islamic clerics won't incite the dissaffected muslim youth of Britian? Is one more law really going to do anything to stop the terrorism? I mean there are already so many laws that make you a criminal just by taking a walk, what do they hope to gain by this little gem? The talk will just go underground. Rather like how the Catholic church is banned in China, but church services thrive in secret despite the very real possibility of a priest being shot.

WHo gets to decide what terrorism is anyway? Would not a political leader suggesting the use of force against the people really be a terrorist act? Is not a law that restricts the right to free speech a terrorist act? Should the members of parliment not then be hanged for treason against the people? Boy, you would think England would learn a history lesson that every time it pisses people off they rebel and overthrough the powers that be.

Seriously, what are you more afraid of: some raghead suicide bomber delaying your commute or a jackbooted thug from the government? The president and the prime minister have sent more innocent people to their deaths than all the terrorists in the world. If they want to pass a law it should be to slash the budgets of the secret police and stop setting so many gestapo wannabes loose upon the world.

[megalomania]

And restricting the speech of Islamic clerics won't incite the dissaffected muslim youth of Britian? Is one more law really going to do anything to stop the terrorism? I mean there are already so many laws that make you a criminal just by taking a walk, what do they hope to gain by this little gem? The talk will just go underground. Rather like how the Catholic church is banned in China, but church services thrive in secret despite the very real possibility of a priest being shot.

WHo gets to decide what terrorism is anyway? Would not a political leader suggesting the use of force against the people really be a terrorist act? Is not a law that restricts the right to free speech a terrorist act? Should the members of parliment not then be hanged for treason against the people? Boy, you would think England would learn a history lesson that every time it pisses people off they rebel and overthrough the powers that be.

Seriously, what are you more afraid of: some raghead suicide bomber delaying your commute or a jackbooted thug from the government? The president and the prime minister have sent more innocent people to their deaths than all the terrorists in the world. If they want to pass a law it should be to slash the budgets of the secret police and stop setting so many gestapo wannabes loose upon the world.

[mediumcaliber]

The British people are not afraid of jackbooted government thugs because they choose not to see them in that light, if the Brits I know are any example.

You're very right about government mandated terror, except that it's been standard practice forever. Take anti-pot laws. Politicians know that a law that doesn't punish people for possessing pot will do practically nothing to stop them from smoking it, as they observed with Prohibition. So they felonize possession. Now does everyone who has pot automatically "pay the price?"
No, the overwhelming majority of pot smokers get away with it, but all are in one or another state of terror of the police, who only find one of these people here and there, and make examples of them for the express and pragmatic purpose of scaring people away from pot. Virtually no one will agree that smoking a joint is so bad a sin as to warrant being made a felon and having whatever of your property the police want "seized," being disenfranchized, having to explain your felony to all future employers, etc; instead their punishment is meant to inflict terror both on them and their entire demographic. Of course, it's called "deterrence" when practiced by morally superior governments, but it's still the practice of intentionally inflicting heinous wrongs at random on members of a targeted demographic in order to induce terror.
The remarks on terrorism's benefits for the expansion of state power can be put very concisely in this light: If the common people can be made to blame terror on an ineradicable enemy who openly despises them and hurts them (even if not that much), then the state can inflict all the terror it likes and accept none of the blame.

[mediumcaliber]

The British people are not afraid of jackbooted government thugs because they choose not to see them in that light, if the Brits I know are any example.

You're very right about government mandated terror, except that it's been standard practice forever. Take anti-pot laws. Politicians know that a law that doesn't punish people for possessing pot will do practically nothing to stop them from smoking it, as they observed with Prohibition. So they felonize possession. Now does everyone who has pot automatically "pay the price?"
No, the overwhelming majority of pot smokers get away with it, but all are in one or another state of terror of the police, who only find one of these people here and there, and make examples of them for the express and pragmatic purpose of scaring people away from pot. Virtually no one will agree that smoking a joint is so bad a sin as to warrant being made a felon and having whatever of your property the police want "seized," being disenfranchized, having to explain your felony to all future employers, etc; instead their punishment is meant to inflict terror both on them and their entire demographic. Of course, it's called "deterrence" when practiced by morally superior governments, but it's still the practice of intentionally inflicting heinous wrongs at random on members of a targeted demographic in order to induce terror.
The remarks on terrorism's benefits for the expansion of state power can be put very concisely in this light: If the common people can be made to blame terror on an ineradicable enemy who openly despises them and hurts them (even if not that much), then the state can inflict all the terror it likes and accept none of the blame.

[tomu]

At the ABC News web site, http://abcnews.go.com/ , they show photographs of the destroyed underground trains in London and more important pictures of the explosive devices one of the ragheads left behind in a car in Luton.

IMHO very kewlish devices.

[tomu]

At the ABC News web site, http://abcnews.go.com/ , they show photographs of the destroyed underground trains in London and more important pictures of the explosive devices one of the ragheads left behind in a car in Luton.

IMHO very kewlish devices.

[mediumcaliber]

IMHO very kewlish devices.

Yeah, as pictured I don't think they were even assembled. It looks to me like it was just stored explosive. The first pic with the mason jar looks to me like the idea is to insert the fuse immediately before setting it off. Any guesses what the stuff taped around it is? Rat poison?

[mediumcaliber]

IMHO very kewlish devices.

Yeah, as pictured I don't think they were even assembled. It looks to me like it was just stored explosive. The first pic with the mason jar looks to me like the idea is to insert the fuse immediately before setting it off. Any guesses what the stuff taped around it is? Rat poison?

[tomu]

You mean those orange-coloured pebbles.

I have a hunch that these idiots glued those little plastic balls used as ammunition for softair guns as "shrapnel" to the glass jar. At least it looks like it.

I find it thoroughly disgusting that those braindead idiots were able to carry out such an attack as on July 7th.

[me234]

Now they're gonna fire the lady that was in charge of armed-police operations that day. So they now show the people that they won't tolerate this kind of thing...
What they don't tell the people is that they're firing her for making a judgment call, but they're not changing the laws that allowed her to make that judgement call. So after a couple of these incidents the people will stop making a noise about this sort of thing, and after a little bit longer this will just be accepted, no longer questioned.
Why did they shoot him more than once? As I understand the situation, the armed police there (and who knows where else...) are allowed to shoot someone if they have a great enough suspicion that they intend to blow themselves up. Specifically, if this is the suspicion, then the police are meant to shoot him in the head. OK then, I got the idea. But then why shoot him more than once in the head? Does it really make a difference to his degree of deadness? If the bomb were going to go off, think of the time it takes between follow up shots, think of the time it takes for an electrical circuit to be closed, an extra couple of shots doesn't make a fucking bit of difference, and it worries me that idiots who think it will are considered well trained in the use of firearms.
Futi, I forgot about the Night of the Crackdown! You're right, what'll happen to us then? How much closer is that Night right now? Right this very minute we are perhaps years closer to it than we were a couple of weeks ago.
I suppose that if this were a G-boy inspired act, then they'd have had this planned for some time and we were always this close, we just didn't know about it.

[Chris The Great]

I'd say we are getting very close.... much to close for comfort. And what will happen when this night finally comes?

We'll be carted away, no explanation other than terrorism. Some of us may put up a fight in the name of freedom, they'll be labelled as evil terrorists by the media and everyone will hate them, before turning back to their favorite sitcom or reality show, anything to avoid real life, responsibility and thinking, afraid of the evil terrorists who where infiltrating them and plotting all this time, but now are being removed by the wonderful democratic government. And they'll go to the polls thinking that them voting for who has the best hair makes a difference to the system, believing every lie that they are told and always shocked for a few seconds when they realize it was a lie, but then they will fall back to their precious television and the ignorance and obliviousness it brings.
The government will stage occasional terrorist attacks now and then, often fakes which kill no one but keep the sheeple in fear, to maintain the need for their police state. The constitution will remain but nobody will have the intelligence anymore to notice what the government has done, because the government long since removed everyone who could think because thinking is now terrorism.

Wait, most of that stuff already is happening...


EDIT: Umm, the preview post button posted my reply? Can someone look into that?

[Jacks Complete]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4159310.stm

Seems that the police are lying to us! (Not that they ever lie in court under oath or in writing or anything...)

The Brazilian wasn't wearing a puffy jacket, but a denim jacket. He had no bags, just the newspaper he bought as he WALKED into the tube station, paid his way through the barriers, and then got to the platform. He then ran onto the train that was on the platform. He was then grabbed by a policeman and thrown back into the seat he had been in before he stood to see what was going on. They then shot him WHILST HELD at close range, five times in the head, once in the shoulder, and missing three times.

Yet the police want to ban airsoft guns because "they look dangerous"! Wankers. As Mega said above, I'll give up my guns after they give up theirs!

[FUTI]

WTF?!
They even manage to miss the guy three times!
This is one of the stupidiest things I read. Are they know what they are doing really? They are bringing the stormtroops who don't know to shot the guy at close range!

Anyway does "local Forum government" has made preparations for Night of Crackdown - when the server has fallen down. Sinthetikal has archived some older controversial chemistry forums, does they or any of our counter-parts can give us a hand in the trouble, or we allready have reserve outpost?

[Skean Dhu]

That sounds more like an assassination than protecting the public. If I didn't know any better I'd say the 'authorities' are killing off dissenters and conspiracey theory 'nuts'. If the 'best of the best' (and since they were under cover to protect us from the evil terrorists I'm assuming they were) can't hit an 6x8 inch oval at 3 feet, they might want to reconsider arming them with anything more than a butter knife .

[FUTI]

to NBK2000: I just watched some TV program that explained German nuclear WWII program and you are wright about that terrorist couldn't make such device as Germans radiological bomb was some kind of exploding reactor (you put reactor out of balance and it make new Chernobil on small scale). But I was assuming the use of nuclear reactor used fuel mixed with explosive to spread the pulverised garbage when I was typing the text and that can't be to hard to do.

to Mega: I belive that Russians didn't have such anti-terrorist laws, and they did have PM assasination attemps in old days but press control was so good that little of those news ever was became news or published. But there were threat that goverment will relocate your family to a different location far in the province deep to east maybe Yakutia where the people grow polar deers as domestic animals and have life span of 40 years. That can be even worse then death. There is some truth in xyz story...they protect goverment officials by all means. I don't know exact story xyz mentioned, but it is true that problem with mafia organised by people who emigrate from ex-USSR where that they didn't hesitate to fire upon police officiers in western countries - since law for killing cop in west is life inprisonment while in USSR they didn't make to the court - he resisted to arrest judge you have my word.

[Emc2]

Jacks Complete: I don't know if you intended this (by being sarcastic), but the statement "Seems that the police are lying to us!" sounds very funny comming from Sr. Researcher.

In case you wanted to be subtle and some people didn't get it, allow me to spell it out: Yes, police is lying to us! (I want to say "All the time", but I can't, as I've just heard the statement of a cop in New Orlean saying "I am here to do whatever I want!" in response to the question: "You are here to protect the Law, aren't you?")

I guess he was truthfull that time.

[nbk2000]

Futi:

There's more to radiological weapons than tossing some TNT under a sack of Cobalt60.

Particle size, dispersion pattern, shielding it against detection, handling the materials long enough to build the bomb and not turning into a walking cancer sore before you can emplace it, getting the rads in the first place...the little things. ;)

The pictures of the 'bombz' that were captured...:D

It's pretty bad when the government agent provocateurs, who blew up the tube the first time around (probably by accident), can build a better bomb than some raghead terrorists who ARE trying to kill.

I saw carpet tacks and airsoft ammo taped to a glass jar with what looked like a soda straw fuse...oh shit! LOL!

[FUTI]

Futi:

There's more to radiological weapons than tossing some TNT under a sack of Cobalt60.

Particle size, dispersion pattern, shielding it against detection, handling the materials long enough to build the bomb and not turning into a walking cancer sore before you can emplace it, getting the rads in the first place...the little things. ;)



It is true NBK2000 that they most likely won't make a weapon of high efficiency like military grade or something, but prime goal of terrorist would be fullfilled - terror ( and mass hysteria of population would follow). Where I'm even medical experts don't call NMR techniques they use to examine patients asscribing him term "nuclear" it is MRI for them. It seems like mentioning the term is upsetting to them and patients :D. Go figure what would happend if they blast even kewl radiological bomb. With all the crap goverments and police are feeding us all this time to whom people would believe? "There is no reason to be alarmed one bomb exploded downtown and all Geiger meters go wild but we are informed that is because EMP weapon terrorist acctivated caused the meters to malfunction. Fact that my hair is falling off is because I'm having a really bad hair day."

[nbk2000]

Some uranium ore from United Nuclear, chemically extract out the U-metal, absorb it into a silica dust carrier, and disperse into target building.

Call media, claim a victory for God against the heathen infidels, and watch the guber-ment piss it up. Denials of danger would be ignored by the public OR they'd hugely overinflate it to suit their own agenda of creating a '1984' society.

Either way, terrorists win. :p

Total cost for the attacker would be a couple hundred dollars. Response costs would be millions or more. An 'asymmetric' attack if ever there was one. :)

[nbk2000]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2559186,00.html

Citing the accidential shooting of a brazilian citizen in the London underground, the British government now has an SAS unit stationed full-time in London.

I like the picture they show in the article. Bodes well for your future, eh brits? ;)

[sdjsdj]

I doubt even the SAS could stop a suicide bombing, unless they knew in advance the time and place. On the other hand, if anyone goes for the bank of England any time soon . . .
They would be in for SUCH a surprise. Briefly. :D

In my opinion, disregarding EXTREME incompetence, any terrorist ready and willing to die for their cause is virtually uninterceptible. After all, they just have to light a fuse, and even with a retard with a bullet wound to the head might manage that five times in ten. Fortunately, radical muslim terrorist wannabes show an astonishing capacity for incompetence.

[c.Tech]

Citing the accidential shooting of a brazilian citizen in the London underground

Accidental my ass. It was an assassination.

[Jacks Complete]

Agreed. He was killed to make a point, as much as anything. One point it made was "If we call you a terrorist, we can do whatever we want to you, and no-one will really care."

The guys who are currently on trial for the underground bombing attempts on the 27th of July (a few weeks after the actual bombing) are being made out to be mastermind bombers. In fact, the CCTV says the one guy was just a passenger. The paper describes the footage as "People fleeing" but it just looks like they are leaving the train. A few people hang back, like normal, and everyone heads for the exit. The bomber jumped a barrier, sure enough, but lots of people jump the trains. Doesn't make them killers.

The "explosives" are a joke. The photo looks like a mess of cat sick. Apparently there was peroxide so strong is "ate through two pairs of gloves" when handled by some newbie forensics girl (there's your mistake right there! what if it was biological?) and you can see a few washers and nails in the blob, too. Probably TAP gone weirdly wrong, given that it was a yellow thing that looked more like foam.

[Gerbil]

Apparently there was peroxide so strong is "ate through two pairs of gloves" when handled by some newbie forensics girl

Apparently it was 9%, according to the BBC. Although, media sources aren't known for their cutting edge accuracy :rolleyes: .

If the "terrorist weapons" are jars of dilute H2O2 and flour, with some dodgy AP as a detonator, we have nothing to fear...