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View Full Version : Softloads, downloads, mouse sneezes, etc. - Quiet gunshots

Jacks Complete
July 15th, 2005, 12:54 PM
I'm actually amazed this isn't anywhere else, but I've looked and tried the various names - mouse loads, mouse sneezes, softloads, downloads (that got plenty of hits!), etc. - and since it came up in the Nylon bullets thread, I thought I would post some results, etc. I first saw these whilst looking at some site that talked about the resistance in Norway/Finland/Sweden during WWII.

Right, as said elsewhere, I use these in various calibres, 7.62x51, .357, .44 and .45-70, for various things.

The most complete data I have is for .44, using a nominal 0.435" soft lead bullet at 240gr. Wadding was spun nylon for pillow stuffing. Temperature was a balmy 28 degrees C! Full sun, needless to say. TKO = Taylor Knockdown formula.

(If anyone can tell me why this huge whitespace appears, please let me know! Scroll down for data!)<TABLE WIDTH=350 BORDER=1 CELLPADDING=2 CELLSPACING=0>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Wadding fill?</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>Grains Bullseye
</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>fps
</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>mps</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>ME (Joules)</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>ME (ft.lbs.)</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
TKO</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Full Wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="0.7" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>0.7</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="212" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>212</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="64.6176" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>64.62</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="32.4676304238165" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>32.47</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="23.946893677414" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>23.95</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="3.13" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
3.13</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Full Wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="0.9" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>0.9</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="262" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>262</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="79.8576" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>79.86</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="49.5885551533566" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>49.59</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="36.5746388748755" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>36.57</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="3.86" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
3.86</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Full Wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="1.1" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1.1</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="251" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>251</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="76.5048" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>76.5</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="45.5120413031965" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>45.51</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="33.5679567588723" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>33.57</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="3.7" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
3.7</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Full Wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="1.1" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1.1</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="242" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>242</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="73.7616" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>73.76</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="42.3067441291472" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>42.31</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="31.2038510440565" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>31.2</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="3.57" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
3.57</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>1/3 wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="1.3" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1.3</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="358" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>358</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="109.1184" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>109.12</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="92.585915486784" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>92.59</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="68.2878622568549" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>68.29</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="5.28" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
5.28</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>No wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="1.5" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1.5</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="418" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>418</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="127.4064" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>127.41</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="126.220947360513" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>126.22</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="93.0957869992097" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>93.1</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="6.16" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
6.16</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Full Wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="1.5" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1.5</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="320" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>320</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="97.536" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>97.54</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="73.9739532618105" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>73.97</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="54.5603843130828" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>54.56</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="4.72" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
4.72</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>No wad
</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="4.2" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>4.2</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="883" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>883</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="269.1384" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>269.14</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="563.24880512449" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>563.25</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="415.430971530109" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>415.43</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="13.02" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
13.02</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>No wad
</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="4.2" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>4.2</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="883" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>883</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="269.1384" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>269.14</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="563.24880512449" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>563.25</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="415.430971530109" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>415.43</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="13.02" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
13.02</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>No wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="5.2" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>5.2</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="1550" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1550</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="472.44" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>472.44</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="1735.57053429199" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1735.57</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="1280.09104797052" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1280.09</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="22.8514285714286" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
22.85</P>
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>


What was interesting about the smaller charges was the lack of noise. Without a moderator or anything, the sound levels were very low. The action made as much noise, and there was no discomfort with no hearing protection. Yet they still went 200 yards, even the 0.7 grain round.

I'm sure people can think of uses for these. :cool:
Jacks Complete
July 15th, 2005, 12:54 PM
I'm actually amazed this isn't anywhere else, but I've looked and tried the various names - mouse loads, mouse sneezes, softloads, downloads (that got plenty of hits!), etc. - and since it came up in the Nylon bullets thread, I thought I would post some results, etc. I first saw these whilst looking at some site that talked about the resistance in Norway/Finland/Sweden during WWII.

Right, as said elsewhere, I use these in various calibres, 7.62x51, .357, .44 and .45-70, for various things.

The most complete data I have is for .44, using a nominal 0.435" soft lead bullet at 240gr. Wadding was spun nylon for pillow stuffing. Temperature was a balmy 28 degrees C! Full sun, needless to say. TKO = Taylor Knockdown formula.

(If anyone can tell me why this huge whitespace appears, please let me know! Scroll down for data!)<TABLE WIDTH=350 BORDER=1 CELLPADDING=2 CELLSPACING=0>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Wadding fill?</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>Grains Bullseye
</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>fps
</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>mps</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>ME (Joules)</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>ME (ft.lbs.)</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
TKO</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Full Wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="0.7" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>0.7</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="212" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>212</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="64.6176" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>64.62</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="32.4676304238165" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>32.47</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="23.946893677414" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>23.95</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="3.13" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
3.13</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Full Wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="0.9" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>0.9</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="262" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>262</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="79.8576" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>79.86</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="49.5885551533566" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>49.59</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="36.5746388748755" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>36.57</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="3.86" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
3.86</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Full Wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="1.1" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1.1</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="251" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>251</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="76.5048" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>76.5</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="45.5120413031965" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>45.51</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="33.5679567588723" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>33.57</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="3.7" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
3.7</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Full Wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="1.1" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1.1</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="242" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>242</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="73.7616" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>73.76</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="42.3067441291472" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>42.31</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="31.2038510440565" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>31.2</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="3.57" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
3.57</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>1/3 wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="1.3" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1.3</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="358" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>358</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="109.1184" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>109.12</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="92.585915486784" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>92.59</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="68.2878622568549" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>68.29</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="5.28" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
5.28</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>No wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="1.5" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1.5</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="418" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>418</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="127.4064" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>127.41</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="126.220947360513" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>126.22</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="93.0957869992097" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>93.1</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="6.16" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
6.16</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Full Wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="1.5" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1.5</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="320" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>320</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="97.536" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>97.54</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="73.9739532618105" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>73.97</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="54.5603843130828" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>54.56</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="4.72" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
4.72</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>No wad
</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="4.2" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>4.2</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="883" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>883</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="269.1384" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>269.14</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="563.24880512449" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>563.25</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="415.430971530109" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>415.43</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="13.02" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
13.02</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>No wad
</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="4.2" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>4.2</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="883" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>883</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="269.1384" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>269.14</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="563.24880512449" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>563.25</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="415.430971530109" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>415.43</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="13.02" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
13.02</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>No wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="5.2" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>5.2</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="1550" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1550</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="472.44" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>472.44</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="1735.57053429199" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1735.57</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="1280.09104797052" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1280.09</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="22.8514285714286" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
22.85</P>
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>


What was interesting about the smaller charges was the lack of noise. Without a moderator or anything, the sound levels were very low. The action made as much noise, and there was no discomfort with no hearing protection. Yet they still went 200 yards, even the 0.7 grain round.

I'm sure people can think of uses for these. :cool:
Jacks Complete
July 20th, 2005, 07:26 AM
Ok, more to add.

Having plotted the data onto a graph, I see two different lines that head back towards zero charge.

Tracking back from the charge at each interval, I can see that the wadding takes up a small amount of power from the powder, equivalent to about .2 grains. The primer itself acts like a charge of about 0.9 grains of RedDot.

Primer power alone, should, in theory, fire these bullets at 100fps with a wad, and 160fps without.

However, trying this with a .357 (using magnum brass), it was found that even with a short barrelled carbine, the lead slug stopped about 2 inches from the end of the barrel. Fired from a revolver, however, this could be quite a fun round for the garden!

If anyone has .38 brass, they might like to try this, and report the results.
Jacks Complete
July 20th, 2005, 07:26 AM
Ok, more to add.

Having plotted the data onto a graph, I see two different lines that head back towards zero charge.

Tracking back from the charge at each interval, I can see that the wadding takes up a small amount of power from the powder, equivalent to about .2 grains. The primer itself acts like a charge of about 0.9 grains of RedDot.

Primer power alone, should, in theory, fire these bullets at 100fps with a wad, and 160fps without.

However, trying this with a .357 (using magnum brass), it was found that even with a short barrelled carbine, the lead slug stopped about 2 inches from the end of the barrel. Fired from a revolver, however, this could be quite a fun round for the garden!

If anyone has .38 brass, they might like to try this, and report the results.
hereno
July 20th, 2005, 09:43 AM
The reason the wadding kills power may be due to the fact that without it, the flash from the primer is able to shoot over the entire surface of the powder for the full length or the case, more surface ignited quicker burn. This is a known problem in reduced loads with bullseye in particular, where what is already a fast powder gets even quicker google for "bullseye blast". I cant think of any good reason why this would increase power, but it will be a reason for an irregularity.

BTW, The probable reason for the "white space" is that you have pressed 'enter' while creating the HTML for the table, every new line in your table stuck a blank one above it.
hereno
July 20th, 2005, 09:43 AM
The reason the wadding kills power may be due to the fact that without it, the flash from the primer is able to shoot over the entire surface of the powder for the full length or the case, more surface ignited quicker burn. This is a known problem in reduced loads with bullseye in particular, where what is already a fast powder gets even quicker google for "bullseye blast". I cant think of any good reason why this would increase power, but it will be a reason for an irregularity.

BTW, The probable reason for the "white space" is that you have pressed 'enter' while creating the HTML for the table, every new line in your table stuck a blank one above it.
Jacks Complete
July 20th, 2005, 11:39 AM
hereno,

I think what happens is the wadding simply absorbs some of the heat. One thing I should mention is that you might find your wadding! I found one rather sticky half melted blob of nylon that hadn't even made it fully out of the case!

Of course, with such low powered rounds, you are never going to get a problem if the bullet gets jammed, but, be careful! If that nylon cooled and set, it might form a plug, giving weird results.

You could use oatmeal, paper, or whatever, for your filler by the way.



As for the whitespace, it shouldn't render that anywhere... It seems the the board software insisted on inserting < br> tags all the way through, one for each line of the table. Next time I shall enter it all as one line, and see if that solves the problem.
Jacks Complete
July 20th, 2005, 11:39 AM
hereno,

I think what happens is the wadding simply absorbs some of the heat. One thing I should mention is that you might find your wadding! I found one rather sticky half melted blob of nylon that hadn't even made it fully out of the case!

Of course, with such low powered rounds, you are never going to get a problem if the bullet gets jammed, but, be careful! If that nylon cooled and set, it might form a plug, giving weird results.

You could use oatmeal, paper, or whatever, for your filler by the way.



As for the whitespace, it shouldn't render that anywhere... It seems the the board software insisted on inserting < br> tags all the way through, one for each line of the table. Next time I shall enter it all as one line, and see if that solves the problem.
simply RED
July 22nd, 2005, 12:44 PM
error errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
simply RED
July 22nd, 2005, 12:44 PM
error errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Jacks Complete
July 23rd, 2005, 07:28 AM
Error? Where? These are genuine results.

You have to aim up a bit to get 200 yards with the lower power ones, but that's life, I'm afraid.
Jacks Complete
July 23rd, 2005, 07:28 AM
Error? Where? These are genuine results.

You have to aim up a bit to get 200 yards with the lower power ones, but that's life, I'm afraid.
xyz
July 23rd, 2005, 08:05 AM
I think he meant that his post was an error, i.e. posting by accident.

As for the info, how does the nylon wadding hold up? If it melts in the cartridge case, surely it must coat the bore in an annoying plastic mess (i.e. melting onto the bore and re-solidifying)?
xyz
July 23rd, 2005, 08:05 AM
I think he meant that his post was an error, i.e. posting by accident.

As for the info, how does the nylon wadding hold up? If it melts in the cartridge case, surely it must coat the bore in an annoying plastic mess (i.e. melting onto the bore and re-solidifying)?
nbk2000
July 23rd, 2005, 01:04 PM
Do a search for 'whisper' and you'll see that this sort of thing has been discussed before.

Though, of course, actual testing and posting of results is always much better than external links. :)
nbk2000
July 23rd, 2005, 01:04 PM
Do a search for 'whisper' and you'll see that this sort of thing has been discussed before.

Though, of course, actual testing and posting of results is always much better than external links. :)
Jacks Complete
July 23rd, 2005, 07:05 PM
xyz,

I've not had any issues with it sticking in the bore. If you let it cool right down, I think it might be a problem, but most of it got spat out the muzzle. Only once was it still hanging onto the end of the case, so I thought I would mention it for completeness. Like I say, though, you can use pretty much anything. I've seen people use porridge (!) and hole punch cuttings.

NBK, I only found a few half-mentions in four results, plus this one by myself. Do you get some kind of power admin search? I know there are a few pages online about it, but some are quite demented ramblings, and all are short on real velocities or sound levels.

You probably all want to know a bit more, though? Well, with a .44 firing, I sent the 1.5 grain shot 200 yards without trouble. I then aimed higher and higher for each later shot with reduced powder, and even the 0.7 grain shot went 200 yards, and went through the target sideways. I was aiming quite high for that one, but it would have been on a torso at that range, so pretty good for something about as loud as a moderated air rifle!

Seriously, try these out. The loudest thing is the hammer falling, followed by the shot hitting the target.
Jacks Complete
July 23rd, 2005, 07:05 PM
xyz,

I've not had any issues with it sticking in the bore. If you let it cool right down, I think it might be a problem, but most of it got spat out the muzzle. Only once was it still hanging onto the end of the case, so I thought I would mention it for completeness. Like I say, though, you can use pretty much anything. I've seen people use porridge (!) and hole punch cuttings.

NBK, I only found a few half-mentions in four results, plus this one by myself. Do you get some kind of power admin search? I know there are a few pages online about it, but some are quite demented ramblings, and all are short on real velocities or sound levels.

You probably all want to know a bit more, though? Well, with a .44 firing, I sent the 1.5 grain shot 200 yards without trouble. I then aimed higher and higher for each later shot with reduced powder, and even the 0.7 grain shot went 200 yards, and went through the target sideways. I was aiming quite high for that one, but it would have been on a torso at that range, so pretty good for something about as loud as a moderated air rifle!

Seriously, try these out. The loudest thing is the hammer falling, followed by the shot hitting the target.
bigbadgrinch
July 30th, 2005, 04:47 PM
I'm assuming since your in the UK you were using a carbine of some kind for .44 mag tests. Was wondering how long the barrell on it was and also if you think the results from a long barrell .44 mag revolver would be the same? I would like to try this myself but i've never made my own handloads. Great post eitherway.
Third_Rail
August 1st, 2005, 12:33 AM
Dacron works better as a filler, it doesn't melt/coat the bore.
Jacks Complete
August 4th, 2005, 08:35 PM
I got the following PM:

bigbadgrinch
Hola
Hey bro I am interested in making my own ammo but I am very very uninformed about it. I was motivated after reading your post regarding the .44 mag loads. Any results on the penetration? I'd like to make them myself to test out in my backyard seeing as I live in a very rural setting. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction? Thanks for your time.

I replied:

Hi.

You can ask things like that in the thread, since then everyone will see the answers.

Penetration is low. The big heavy bullets are slow and round, and not even stable sometimes. They tend to bounce off things, but that's not bad, since this doubles the knockdown power c.f. stopping dead, which in turn is way more than a slow penetration.

I had them bounce off anything that was flexible enough, so take care, and stand off axis.
bigbadgrinch
August 9th, 2005, 07:55 PM
by standing off axis you man dont hold the firearm directly in front of you?
neo-crossbow
June 15th, 2006, 10:35 AM
or as .30m1 owners would know...

10.2gn of ADI AR2205 pushing a 110gn projectile. Add a thread and tube to your muzzle and giddy up.

Its not the loudest auto around anyway but this is tops.

I tried a mini-30 chambered in .300 whisper and it got my mind ticking about the old m1 carbine.

great thread
Jacks Complete
June 16th, 2006, 06:09 PM
10.2gn of powder will push the bullet at near sonic velocity, and give a notable report. I assume by "thread and tube" you mean a silencer, which defies the point of the mouse loads, since in most places a silencer is either expensive or prohibited. The mouse load is designed to be as quiet or quieter than a silenced sub-sonic round.

The .300 is a great niche round, I'd love one.

As a note, the mouse loads would be great for a home-made weapon, if the required pressure bearing tube was unavailable. Press to the back of the head and pull the trigger. No problems with body armour.
neo-crossbow
June 20th, 2006, 05:44 AM
10.2gn of powder will push the bullet at near sonic velocity, and give a notable report. I assume by "thread and tube" you mean a silencer, which defies the point of the mouse loads, since in most places a silencer is either expensive or prohibited. The mouse load is designed to be as quiet or quieter than a silenced sub-sonic round.

The .300 is a great niche round, I'd love one.

As a note, the mouse loads would be great for a home-made weapon, if the required pressure bearing tube was unavailable. Press to the back of the head and pull the trigger. No problems with body armour.

yeah I took this load as close to the sound barrier as I could. At the time I did this it was quite legal to have a suppressor in Australia and I had my own lathe to make it and thread the M1 carbine. Super sonic crack, muzzle blast and mechanical noises make mouse loads great ideas in lever actions, bolt actions and other no-automatic rifles.

I also remeber that some brands of sub-sonic ammunition wouldn't function reliably in blow back operated .22lr rifles, it was as noisy as a bolt action using target ammo. I did try a padded case catcher, silencer and reduced bolt weight to get a 10 / 22 ruger to work quiet and handy for a rabbit shooter who I worked with periodicly.


case catcher was to stop noise from ejection port more then anything

decided to take weight out of bolt as apposed to lightening the return spring to ensure that if had suffient force to chamber a round

I take it mouse loads won't get an auto to work reliably without huge modifications?
Jacks Complete
June 21st, 2006, 11:31 AM
Correct. The aim of the mouse load is to get the bullet to come out of the muzzle at a very low speed, after the powder has finished burning. This means there is no flash and very low noise. You can spit the lead out at a few hundred feet per second, and it will go 200 yards and smash a target - you just have to aim high!

Anything that took some of the power out of that would stop it exiting the barrel, plus the light charge would not generate anything like enough gas for a modern gas-blowback to work. A recoil operated system, likewise, would not work. I doubt it would recoil the bolt at all, since the recoil is about the same as a slingshot or .22, but with a .44 or .45 bullet.
neo-crossbow
June 22nd, 2006, 10:30 AM
This certainly would be an art form to do such! A quick duck around the rifle range and various gunstores here in aus looking for some recipies to share and all I came up with was In australia PMC market a SSCAT "Super Subsonic Catergory" this apparently is a mouse load for 22 LR.

I'm going to keep diggin on this one, I think I have found my new hobby!~
Jacks Complete
June 23rd, 2006, 04:15 PM
What calibre are you talking about using? I can probably suggest a load. Basically, you want to be using something like Red Dot, i.e. a fast powder!

Working up a load is easy. For example: .44 with a 160gr bullet, in a magnum case, I started at 4 grains of powder, then loaded one with 3, 2, 1. I then tested those. The 4 grain ones were pretty soft on the shoulder, and went fast down the range. The smaller charges, obviously, less so. I fired the 1 grain powder charge, and found it still came out. This told me that the next step was to load a few more, 1gr, 0.9gr, etc. Looking back at the table, I covered 1.5gr down to 0.7gr in 0.2 grain steps. I was amazed when the 0.7 grain shot fired, and still thumped into the target. It was, to be sure, 4" low at 25 yards, but it was still on the paper!

The very fast burn means that there is no flash. Primer power alone doesn't clear the muzzle, btw, not in my rifle. It requires a little power. In a pistol it would be different.