"Power" of flashpowders

[the freshmaker]

I know this sounds extremely K3VVLiSh but try to understand me. If you compare different types og flashpowders which of them would be the "most powerfull" I know you can't just say its "powerfull" since there is alot of differences fx. burnrate, gas vol, heat etc. But if you took 10g very well mixed flash with the exact same particel sice, same confinement (paper tube) etc. wich type of flashpowder would then create the biggest dent in a thin metalplate?

Are there better ways to compare how "powerfull" flashpowders are?

The types of flash I would like to know about is KCl04/Al - KClO3/Al - KNO3/Al - KMnO4/Al - KMnO4/Al/S......

Please help if you can..! -thanks Cya


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good boy with bad ideas

[BrAiNFeVeR]

Well, I can't say much about The KClO4 or KClO3 fash (because I don't have those materials) But the KMnO4 is a lot faster then the KNO3 flash.
The S is just for easier igniting i guess ..

PS: did you fall from heaven or did they kicked you out ?


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"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"

[Madog555]

KNO3 flash sucks (for me), i have herd that KClO4 Flash (3 KClO4/2 Al/1 S) is the most powerful. i have also herd of a KClO3 flash that burns so fast that it goes off with a pop unconfined! search for the thread "Favorite Flash"

there is a pretty recent thread with a pic of some KNO3 flash compared to some KMnO4 flash. Big diference!

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"To live is to suffer, to survive... well thats to find meaning into suffering." -DMX

[CodeMason]

Brainfever: Nah, I hear they finally got around to installing internet access in heaven now. But what with all those sissy Christians up there, half the sites are blocked out.

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Live free or die! | http://codemason.cjb.net

[Mr Cool]

KNO3/Al isn't really a flash mix - it's used in white flares. Maybe it would work in flash with extremely good Al and a few other additives.
I think the most powerful flash might be KMnO4/Al/S - the KMnO4 releases its oxygen at a comparatively low temperaure and without melting, so it uses up less energy than, for example, KClO4 which needs a lot of energy to decompose, and it needs energy to melt it first. So with KMnO4 you get more energy given out in heat and light, and less used up in the reaction. The sulphur will provide a greater gas volume than KMnO4/Al alone.
Maybe.

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"Nothing makes a man fear much, more than to know little." - Francis Bacon.

[CodeMason]

Chromates/dichromates are better oxidizers than permanganates.

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Live free or die! | http://codemason.cjb.net

[the freshmaker]

Are dichromates better oxidisers than permanganates? Then comp's with those be very unstable- and have a big risk of spontanously ignition!! Can Ammonium Dichromate be used with Al to form a good low explosive? Also, Ammonium Dichromate should be explosive in dry form! (?)

Yesterday, I "dreamt" I was launching small rockets with a 10g Permanganate flash charge on top! Some awesome reports they gave!

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good boy with bad ideas

[Mr Cool]

Yes, ammonium dichromate will detonate when pure and dry.
I have some potassium dichromate, and it doesn't seem quite as good as potassium permanganate in things such as flash, although mine is *slightly* brown and not bright orange, so perhaps it's impure?


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"Nothing makes a man fear much, more than to know little." - Francis Bacon.

[a_bab]

It definitely is. Mine is bright orange (a very nice aspect).
I heard that K₂Cr₂O₇ is very toxic. 1 gram can kill a man. (duh, chromate ion toxicity)


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Damn, I got a nitro-headache again...

http://move.to/pyromania

[kingspaz]

aren't dichromates carcinogenic? surely that alone would make KMnO4 a better option...

[Anthony]

The fastest burning composition should give the most violent case rupture and cause the biggest shock to the target metal sheet.

For that reason I'd say KMnO4 with german dark Al, or maybe some of that minute Al Philou had that could be ignited with a naked flame.

[Jumala]

Approximate 10 years ago I saw a sciense show about fireworks.
The moderator showed different kinds of powder and made a little burning experiment with each kind. To get an idea whats the difference is between BP and fast burning stuff he shows a mix off perchlorate and aluminium powder.
He poored a amount like a pea on a fire-resistant plate and lit it with a long stick.

It sounded like a pistol shot.
The moderator said it was a burnrate higher than 1000m/s.

I have tryed to make the same experiment but I haven`t the nessesary stuff (Al powder without wax)so it fails.

[CyclonitePyro]

I think KCLO4 flash is the best, it burns incredibly fast and it is much safer than KMnO4 flash. But we're not talking about the best flash, just the most powerful.
Isn't there some way to find out how much energy is released from each comp. using some calculations.

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"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"

[EventHorizon]

I've tried a few different comps for flash, KNO3/Al, KClO4/Al, KClO3/AL/S, KMnO4/Mg, KClO4/Al/Sb/S, etc.

The best I've found so far was the last one listed but required a LOT of confinement. The second best is just plain old 70/30 KClO4/German blackhead, but its hard to lite for me, I have to make a paste of pyrodex and put a bulb on each fuse for reliable ignition.

On a side note...don't go hog wild on ordering shit...I have no fucking clue what I'm going to do with 5# of 4µM Al, 3# of 400mesh Al, 3# of 325 mesh Mg, and a pound of German blackhead (and yes, enough KClO3/KClO4 to accompany all of it).

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"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

[This message has been edited by EventHorizon (edited December 27, 2001).]

[Mr Cool]

You could, if you really wanted to, work out the energy released in J per gram of flash if you knew the general equation for its combustion and the bond energies of the bonds broken and formed per mole, and if you knew the burn rate you could work out the power of a gram of flash in W.
But it'd be a lot more fun to decide which is best with practical experimentation...
K2Cr2O7 is very carcinogenic and toxic, due to the chromium in the +6 oxidation state.

As an experiment, I put some spherical Al powder in my ball mill for 24 hours, and the burn rate of some KMnO4 flash did seem to improve slightly, due to the grains being slightly flattened. SO if you're not in a rush to make your flash I'd recommend doing this.

If you ordered too much stuff I'm sure you wouldn't have a problem selling it to others...

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"Nothing makes a man fear much, more than to know little." - Francis Bacon.

[EventHorizon]

I've got "The Complete Book of Flash Powder". I'll scan it and try out the OCR software I'm "acquiring". http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

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"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

[CodeMason]

Sounds good EventHorizon, looking forward to it. :)

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Live free or die! | http://codemason.cjb.net

[RTC]

I plan on making some zn/s mixes.

I'll be making the sulphur as at the moment the chem's to make it are cheap and on hand. (sodium thiosulphate and a sodium hydrogen sulphate solution)

I will try to capture these testings, but does anyone know how to record film from a digital camera, as mine is a web cam/digi cam/mp3 player, and it says that it can record video if plugged into vcr/tv capture card, I've plugged it into my capture card and did a scan of channels to see if I could pick up the digi cam station, to no avial. Anyone have any idea's what im doing wrong? I've read the manual but that didn't help either.
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We have assembled here today to teach you all a little lesson. One cannot remain on top for years while closing one's mind to the influence of others. I will demonstrate the true meaning of inovation for all you to see.

[This message has been edited by RTC (edited December 28, 2001).]

[Donutty]

Probably the fastest burning ('powerful') flash powder that I use is made with German black aluminium and perchlorate with fine particle sizes and passed through a screen several times. Supposedly the fastest and most potent flash is made of 29% KCLO4, 27% KCLO3, 22% German black alu, 15% Sb2S3 (Antimony sulphide) and 7% sulphur.

This mix is also very dangerous as it is the most sensitive. A variation on this without the sulphur and chlorate could be the most powerful and reasonably safe mixes: 64% KCLO4, 27% German black and 9% Sb2S3

On the subject of flash burning unconfined - I've found that after a 1/2 - 1 second most flash mixes the size of a few grains of salt go with a 'zish' sound

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...AAGH! It Burns!...

[CyclonitePyro]

I bought that movie from pyrotek awhile ago called: Blast Waves & Flash Powders video
Our hottest selling video. Pyrolabs and Ken Kosanke dispel many of the myths surrounding flash composition. What's better, depth of sound or loudness? Are simple formulations better? 55 minutes that will change the way you think about flash. (That is taken from the pyrotek website)
They said that sulfer or antimony sulphide has no effect on power or sound.

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"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"

[Mr Cool]

I think the ones reported to be the most powerful may only be the most powerful that are used; some less stable mixtures, that cannot safely be used, may be more powerful.
Although that one Donutty posted looks like it should make quite a bang!!
To the person making his own sulphur - that makes colloidial sulphur, doesn't it? If so, I'm sure you'll have a lot of fun getting it out of the solution and washing it, since it will pass through filter papers...

Edit: Just thought (maybe you have too), if you can't filter out the sulphur, evapourate off all the water so you have the crystals of left over reactants and products, and the sulphur particles. Then heat this up and the sulphur will melt into one solid mass, which can then be easily removed from the other stuff, purified if needed, crushed and used.

Another edit: http://come.to/pfp has lots of good compositions, including flashes. Check it out if you haven't already.

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"Nothing makes a man fear much, more than to know little." - Francis Bacon.

[This message has been edited by Mr Cool (edited December 29, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Mr Cool (edited December 29, 2001).]

[MacCleod]

I've experimented quite a bit with KCl03 flash mixes,and found that the mesh size of the aluminum used makes a major difference where burn rate/power is concerned.With 1000 mesh black (14/5),even the slightest confinement (single fold of masking tape) will give a nice bang,whereas,with 425 mesh,it needs fairly strong confinement to work.With 1000 mesh Mg. it's even faster.But for the most powerful,i'd have to go with the KMn04 flash mixes.I tried a mix of 3 parts KMn04 to 2 parts 190 mesh flake alum.(by vol.) and got the same results as the KCl03/alum. mix-a nice crack when folded in a single strip of 2 in. masking tape.I've been afraid to use it for salutes,though,due to it's extreme sensitivity.

[BrAiNFeVeR]

If you don't add S, I think it is quite stable ...

I made lots of flash salutes with the hollidays, and it all went fine ...

[Mr Cool]

It will still be quite unstable without S, but I don't think KMnO4/Al will be very sensitive if kept pure and dry. It'd be fine to make bangers out of it, unless you're planning ahead and making them for your 65th birthday celebration.

[vulture]

I burned ca 2g of KMnO4/Al/S flash today, i never expected it to be so powerful!
It created a huge burst of flame (ca. 50cm)
It was made by simply mixing the ingredients together with a spoon, no ballmilling or whatsoever.

Be very careful with this cause it's highly unpredictable.

[the freshmaker]

Can anyone really proof that Permanganate flash (with Sulfur) is so damn unstable as many of you folks says?
I know I burns/explodes very violently but that haven't anything to do with its stability!
(I'm not say'n that Permanganate flash isn't, but I would like some proofs...!!! thanx

[nbk2000]

Add a drop of water to permanganate flash with sulfur. See what happens if you let it sit. I'm interested in the answer.

[vulture]

It's stable but unpredictable. What i'm trying to say is that it won't explode without any reason, but it's hard to tell when it will go off.
With blackpowder fuse and booster i have been able to set it off immediatly, but you have to hold it in a flame for ca. 2-5s before it will burn, that's the dangerous thing cause that way some flash almost exploded right into my face.

I don't know what it does when struck, i'm a little scared to do that after i saw what a small amount of flash does...

[the freshmaker]

nbk2000 yes I know that it'll maybe ignite in presence of water, and so will allmost all flashpowders, and btw who would go drip water in a batch of flash or go setting crackers of when it rains??
Besides of the "water risk" what else proofs that its so damn senistive and unstable??

-and yes I know about the glyserine risk also!
But that have nothing to do about this flash-mix!!

[nbk2000]

You're getting ahead of yourself with the gylcerine there mister....

Water doesn't come in just big drops of water falling into your powder. It also comes as moisture pulled out from the air by hydroscopic salts. This isn't a problem during short term storage, but if you get a few rainy days...poorly sealed containers....boom!

Just a possibility.

I don't think too many people here are making things for months in advance, so it's almost a moot point.

[MacCleod]

I've made KMn04 salutes for immediate use with tissue paper end plugs that worked great,but I usually use hot glue to plug the ends,and I make a few gross at a time,then save them until summer.That's why i'd be worried about using it.

[the freshmaker]

nbk2000, is KMnO4 hydroscopic?? I don't think so, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: the freshmaker ]</p>

[nbk2000]

I haven't touched the stuff in more than 10 years so I can't be sure. But it's best to assume that any chemical IS and take appropriate precautions. After all, better safe than sorry, right?

[FadeToBlackened]

What about different fuels? Anyone know how ones like:
Aluminum
Magnesium
K2S (fulminating powder, minus the nitrate)
,etc.. compare to each other?

[vulture]

The magnesium version should be much more powerful, cause this burns with bright light already and the oxidation reaction is faster because only one oxygen atom binds with it.
With magnesium you don't need so much oxidizer also.
I have been wanting to try this, but Mg powder costs way to much were i live.
How about Zn powder as a fuel?

[MacCleod]

I mixed up some KMn04 flash today with 1000 mesh magnesium (from Firefox),which I tinkered with on my lunch break.I dripped some glycerine on a pea-sized pile of it and got about a 4 second delay before a nice 'pop'.So I doubled the pile,and got a 'BANG'.It needs no external confinement whatsoever.If anyone else here on the Forum has got the magnesium please give this a try,if for no other reason than to prove i'm not bullshitting!.
Oh,it's 3 to 2 oxidizer to metal,by vol..

[mr.evil]

i've tested some magnesium flashpowders:

KMnO4/Mg,
this stuff is so awesome, it burns with a WHOMP! sound, like AP and when you lit 2 grams or some you can feel some kind of wind( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> )
also, the flash is very blindening.

KNO3/Mg,
This stuff is quiet cool, i thought it would burn slowly...BUT! it burns hell fast, like bad flash, producing a hard SCHHHH sound and very bright light(i saw spots for 10 minutes or so)

i'm very happy with the results of the KNO3/Mg flash as it's quiet stable, and cand be used with sulfer! :)

[Rat Bastard]

Mr. Evil, are you using the standard 70/30 for those two flash compositions?

[mr.evil]

i don't know exactly, i've tried some different mixes..

i've tried 50:50, 40:60 and 70:30

But i'm not finished yet with testing...

btw, add boric acid to the mixtures, that will provide the mixture will self ignite. (though only if it gets wet however..)

[EP]

That last couple days I've been experiemtning with 8 different burst/flash comps...

greenmix
H3
whistle
kno3/al
kno3/al/s
kmno4/al/s
kclo4/al/s
kclo4/al

Full results will be on my site eventually, but I'm not done yet (for example, havent done confined tests)

I did some caveman-style friction and impact tests on very small ammounts (.05g maybe? my scale isnt that accurate...) I then ground the powder on a concrete block using another chunk of concrete. For impact I put antoher litttle pile on the block, put a piece of paper on top, and hit it several times with a hammer. Not a single one went off with either test. :) Doesn't mean I'll go boxing with a flash salute in my pocket, but it's nice to know I don't have to hold in my farts when mixing it. :p

Somebody up there said they had a hard time igniting kmno4/al/s, but I tested every mix for spark sensitivity by scraping a flint onto it, and the kmno4/al/s lit very easily! The whistle mix (70 kclo4/30 sodium benzoate) would hardly light, I had to add some greenmix and light that for it to go! Any ideas why? Perhaps my benzoate wasn't fine enough... :confused:

kmno4/al/s and kclo4/al both seemed to burn at about the same speed (about .5g of each mix was burned in open air) with kclo4/al/s a little slower.

On new years (so nobody complains about noise) I'll test 2g of each in pulumnas. Tonight I'm going to try and ignite a chuck of Mg with some thermite, I hope it works!

<small>[ December 23, 2002, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: EP ]</small>

[static_firefly]

I made some kmno4 an al with pleaseing results but by far the most reactive and powerful i have used is kmno4 and phosphrous. In contact with flame it makes a bright flash a phut sound. Id try larger amounts bigger then pea sized piles but as i think you could already tell its shock sensitive.

I will try making a pile of kmno4/S spray a mist of water onto and let it sit. see what it does.

[Nika452]

EP, on the topic of your whistle mix, did you make the sodium benzoate or buy it? If you bought it, should I assume its from United Nuclear?

My whistle mix, made with bought sodium benzoate, seems to ignite fairly easily. It is certainly more spark sensitive than my green mix. Perhaps yours is not mixed well? If you add a small amount of charcoal or other coloured fuel to the mix when you mix it, you can tell how close to homogenous it is.

If you made the sodium benzoate, it would need to be ground down a bit, but I doubt that fineness (is this a word?--magnitude of pulverosity?) would be your problem.

--Looking forward to seeing the updates on your site.

[Mr Cool]

Static, you be careful with that phosphorous mixture, OK? It's nasty nasty stuff. That's what I ended up doing with most of the phosphorous I had a few years ago, and although I never had it go off for no reason, it did go off at even the slightest provocation on some occaisions. Also red P is hygroscopic as you'll probably know from using it.
I don't think it's as bad as chlorate/phosphorous mixtures though. If you paint a solution of potassium chlorate onto the phosphorous on a box of matches and let it dry then the result is a strip of paper that deflagrates with a bright flash when you drop small objects onto it. They're quite fun, as long as you treat them carefully. The trouble is they can go off when you try to pick them up, or when you touch them!

[EP]

The benzoate (from United Nuclear) definetly didn't look as fine as the perchlorate, so next time I'll try grinding it up a bit to increase its magnitude of pulverosity. :p Also, because both are white, it's impossible to tell how well mixed they are. I'll try the charcoal idea and see how it goes...

[NickSG]

I usually stay away from KMno4 flash powders, since i do not have a reliable, cheap source(though i have heard it can be bought a sears, but i forgot the use). On Monday, i made a 150 gram batch of flash powder(i know you arent supposed to mix over 100 grams of flash, but i mixed it with a 3 foot long wooden dowel in a plastic container). I used the 2/1 ratio of potassium perchlorate and german dark aluminum(600 mesh), mainly becuase i was bored with the 7/3, and i never tried the 2/1 with this kind of flash. 1/4 teaspoon, gave me very suprising results. Instead of the WHOOSH sound that i was expecting, i got a loud thud. I made a salute with the flash powder using 1/8 inch hot glue plugs in a "M-80" tube that i also bought from UN, and my friend, who was close to 200 feet away, told me that when it went off, the windows in his house very shaking very gentle, but enough to notice. I could clearly heard the widnows by the house we set it off by shaking. Anyways, if you are tired to the 7/3, try 2/1 becuase it definatly has beter results. I tried the magnesium/kno3 or kclo4 before with very nice results. I ball milled a cut up magnesium bar for about two weeks, and mixed it with kno3 in a 6/4 ratio. This flash powder burned very fast, and very bright, like posted before, and made a nice thud sound, similar to my 2/1. The perchlorate/ magnesium in the 7/3 ratio made a dent in my pop can, becuase i flip a pop can over, and light the powder in the bottom. It is my fasted flash powder i have made ever, and 1 teaspoon made a pretty loud THUD, and my hair seemed to flip back when it set off. If you want the best flash powder with the cheapest and most accessable materials, i would go with the kno3/magnesium.

[Eliteforum]

I wouldn't say that magnesium would be cheaper, or easier to come by. Although it may give better results.

[Sparky]

I'd just like to mention one of my (imaginary) friends experiences with magnesium flash powders (or so he tells me :) ). His first flash powder was magnesium/KNO3 50/50. He would deffinetly recomend this powder. BUT he has found the shape of the magnesium may be very important. Filings from a single cut mill bastard work well, and filings from a hacksaw (32 points per inch I think) are usable. The potassium nitrate must be ground as fine as practical.

The same friend bought some 325 mesh magnesium powder from Skylighter and tried it 50/50 with potassium nitrate as flash. It was totally unusable as a report composition, burning slower than regular FF grade black powder. 70/30 potassium perchlorate/magnesium was similar. It is possible there may be a large amount of magnesium oxide or other contaminants in the magnesium when he bought it( :mad: ).

He tried ball milling the magnesium for about 10 hours using glass media (opening the mill every hour) and it reduced the magnesium quite a lot. It is now usable in KNO3 flash as long as the potassium nitrate is finely ground. It is still not as good as the flash made from magnesium filed from a firestarter. This milled magnesium is not as good with potassium perchlorate (7/3) as indian dark aluminum is.

Another experiment he did with magnesium flash powder is taking the same filed magnesium that works with KNO3 and using it 7/3 with potassum perchlorate. It was unimpressive, certainly not as good as 'normal' aluminum based flash. He has come to the conclusion that magnesium flash can be confusing in that it performs very contrary to how he has heard it should :confused: .

Yet another related experiment my friend did was mix up some indian dark aluminum and fine potassium nitrate. He tried it in various ratios, and it would not sustain combustion without sulfur!

Just for interest's sake: On the subject of the most 'powerful' flash, search for hyperflash and "Z11" in the rec.pyrotechnics archive and you will find some references to amazing (so fast burning and sensitive as to be impractical) flash powders.

[Anthony]

IIRC the KMnO4 sold at Sears is as refills for water purifiers.

[Wcc445]

Anyone experemented with KClO4/Mg? I saw something above about KNO3/Mg, but nothing about KClO4.

[NickSG]

yeah, i have made some very successful flash powders using magnesium and KClO4, and it burns faster and hotter with magnesium than with aluminum. My previous post has a little information on my experiments. Potassium perchlorate is not a neccesity if someone is wanting to make a good flash powder. If sources are low(you are underage, so cannot order from Skylighter, firefox, pyrotek, or anyother good suppliers, and do not want to pay a lot of money with United Nuclear), you can use KNO3. Potassium nitrate can be bought at wal mart as stump remover(and can be purified for better results) and so can the magnesium, as a firestarter, which must be powdered, either by scraping it with a knife, or runing it in a ball mill for several days, up to 2 weeks. Magnesium is considerable more expensive than aluminum, but the low cost of potassium nitrate can make up for it. Unless you can make the magnesium very fine(400 to 600 mesh), the 2/1 or 7/3 flash powder (KClO4/german aluminum) is better, but only if you have access to a reliable supplier.

[knowledgehungry]

Anthony you do recall correctly. It is sold as KMNO4 in the water treatment area. 5 lbs for 17$ thats a whole shitload better than pyroteks 5lbs for 48$+ S&H.

[Nihilist]

I'm not sure which is the most powerful but from my experience KMnO4/Al/S is the brightest and fastest burning by far, I lit a pile of this at night and was blind for about 10 seconds afterward.

[HMnO4]

After testing just about ALL the flash powders listed, I found that the KMnO4 + Al + Mg (tested as 50:25:25) is the most reliable, inexpensive, and easiest to come by.

Potassium Permanganate can be found at just about any Home Depot store around. It is sold in either the well-treatment section, or water purification.

I have never found a local hardware/chem. store that sells gran./powdered Al or Mg. Both can be purchased from the majority of pyrotechnic commerce sites on the net.

Also - I have purchased 90% H2SO4 from Home Depot, and I'm trying to create an impact-sensitive casing that will break open a small ampule of Sulfuric Acid. Upon impact, the ampule will break and react with the KMnO4 to create HMnO4, which instantly ignites the KMnO4/Al/Mg powder.
<img src="http://radi0activ.com/hm.gif" alt=" - " />

[NickSG]

The 50/25/25 might be one of the best working, but i can tell you it is not one of the most inexpensive. Metals, especially powdered, are expensive, especially magnesium. Aluminum is still expensive, but not insanely expensive. The cheapest, and fastest burning flash powders tend to be the ones with more than 60 percent oxidizer, since it is almost always cheaper than metal powders. The most powerful flash powders are the ones with more metals (but you want to make sure to have enough oxygen to completely burn), becuase more gases are produced, makeing a louder and more powerful explosion. Overall, you were right about it being reliable and very powerful, but it is not the cheapest.

[HMnO4]

It also depends on the region of the world you're from. Prices vary greatly.

I do not have KClO4, only KClO3. I made a 7:3 composition of KClO3 + Al (Both are powdered and reagent grade) and the mixture burned surprisingly slow, and took a great deal of heat to ignite. Does the KClO4 version burn faster/require less heat?

One thing that I don't like about the KMnO4 flash powder is the high temperature it requires to ignite. The only way I can get a salute to ignite completely is to coat the end of the fuse with powdered Mg.

Also - KMnO4 makes a mess when it contacts water. A dime-size pile of KMnO4 will turn whatever it contacts to a flaming purple, and then dark-brown.

<small>[ March 07, 2003, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: HMnO4 ]</small>

[mr.evil]

maybe fun to know, but i've made an exotic flashpowder:

Sb203 --> 5
Cu(II)O -> 1
Mg ------> 2,5
S -------> 0,5

actually i was trying to make crackling stars without Pb304(wich i have now). But this mix turns out to be a very powerfull flash mixture. It flashed with an extremely bright white flame(duh, Mg)
there are only a few points why i don't use this mix:

1. It's an toxic mix (okay, mixes containing Pb304 are far more toxic but you don't use it on the ground)

2. It only works if you use an *booster* like BP/Mg or some other metal containing pyrotechnic mixture.

anyway, i find that KMnO4:Mg is the most powerfull and fastest flash mixture i've ever seen.

(SORRY! for the spelling mistakes :rolleyes: )

by the way,
ever tried whistle mix + 1% Fe203? this stuff is really powerfull!

<small>[ March 08, 2003, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: mr.evil ]</small>

[vulture]

I can't help noticing some odd things in this thread.
Firstly, most of you just determine the amounts by trial and error instead of writing the equation and calculating the amount needed. That's also the reason (atleast I think it is) why most formulas I see here are heavily underoxidized.
If you need help writing the equation I am willing to help you.

Secondly, most of you seem to assume that Mg
flashpowder burns faster and hotter.
My question: How do you know this? It's not because it is more blinding that it burns hotter or faster, this can be caused by more visible radiation instead of IR or UV. The military seems to prefer Al powder above anything else too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Also - KMnO4 makes a mess when it contacts water. A dime-size pile of KMnO4 will turn whatever it contacts to a flaming purple, and then dark-brown. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">The purple is merely dissolved KMnO₄ while the dark brown is the reduction to MnO₂ by dust, etc....
You should know that with such a nickname... :p

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I do not have KClO4, only KClO3. I made a 7:3 composition of KClO3 + Al (Both are powdered and reagent grade) and the mixture burned surprisingly slow, and took a great deal of heat to ignite. Does the KClO4 version burn faster/require less heat?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">KClO₃ requires less energy to split it's oxygen than KClO₄ and thus it is more sensitive. Do not make the false assumption that KClO₄ flash would be more powerful because it has one more oxygen atom. Performance is only determined by enthalpy and kinetic barriers.

Oh, I might be picky, but this forum has a very nice feature called subscript...

I'm sorry if this seems a bit arrogant, but if we really want to discuss this in a sophisticated manner we should start with atleast getting the basic formulas right.
Only after that we can start discussing thermodynamics etc...

<small>[ March 08, 2003, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: vulture ]</small>

[HMnO4]

Sorry that I didn't go into technical details on WHY the colors are the way they are.. Is it really necessary..._{Oh yes... here's some subscript.. Just for you :-)}

[vulture]

If you can't be bothered with chemistry, then you shouldn't bother making pyrotechnics or explosives. :mad:

If you have the time to put some silly text into subscript it should be no effort for you to do it with a few numbers, no? :rolleyes:

Besides, flaming (especially by noobies) isn't really accepted over here....

[kingspaz]

ENOUGH :mad:

bickering ends or banning commences :D

[photonic]

I would like to make some flash but I can't find the chemicals locally. I went to 5 hardware stores(3 of which were different) and one of the largest outdoor supply stores in the U.S., actually it's probably the largest. I couldn't find KMnO4 anywhere. Nor could I find magnesium firestarter. Do any of you have pictures of the packaging? On a better note, I got 2L of H2SO4 for 15 dollars and a liter of toluene. I once heard that the "Stop-Leak" stuff for radiators is flaked aluminum, but I haven't seen any lately to check. Is this true?

[MacCleod]

You can find KMn04 at Sears,in the water softener aisle.I'm guessing you may have just missed the firestarters.Go to-http://www.baproducts.com/cl7870.htm to see what to look for.

[NickSG]

I usually find my magnesium firestarters at wal mart. Sometimes the may not have it, but they do most of the time. Sporting goods stores supposedly have them, but i havent checked.
KMnO4 isnt necessary in magnesium based flash powders. KNO3 performs very good, often faster burn rate than black powder. The burn rate depends on mesh of the powder, so leave it in the ball mill for several days.
Theoretically, aluminum and magnesium have the same energy output, even though magnesium is far more reactive (not necessarily brighter or more powerful) than aluminum.

[The Crazed]

Personaly I prefer KClO4 the best. Once when my friend and I were mixing some, the bag leaked like 25g on the lawn when we were mixing it. He got the bright idea of throwing a match on it from like 5 ft away. He ended up getting a black residew all over his face and neither of us could hear for hours. aslo I think the KClO4 and Al (about 500 mesh) is one of the safest mixtures out there. It doesnt react to friction and heat.

"Yeah, I think we're far back enough..."-famous last words

[Anthony]

If it does not react to heat, how does it get ignited by a fuse?

Also, every LE and LE is "reactive" to friction and impact (amongst other things) to some degree.

Just a note about over-exageration, try to keep it accurate :)

[kababz]

KMnO4/Mg flash is the most frighting thing I've ever seen. 30 gram minimun detonation mass.

[c.Tech]

I made 2 grams of KMnO4/Mg/S flash.

The magnesium was grinded off using sandpaper, the sulfur in a mortar in pestle and the KMnO4 with another mortar and pestle.

When the newspaper was lit it was sitting on I herd a loud Wompfh!

This gave me a scare because I didn’t know such a small amount of flash could defrag when sitting out in the open, especially mine because the chem’s weren’t ground in a ball mill.

[m-80]

Half a gram (pea sized amount) of KMNO4/2 micron Atomized Al will explode like a gun shot. This is the flash many people have only heard of and never been able to produce. It is very violent and nasty flash. It is made with HIGH GRADE KMNO4 and ATOMIZED 2 MICRON Al. It is important that the KMNO4 is a very fine powder and also 99%-100% pure other wise it will not work. The chemicals need to be mixed very well (but be careful as its very sensitive), i use the corner of a plastic bag (bag MUST be sprayed with anti-static guard to stop static electricity setting the explosive off while you mix it) and mix no more than half a gram. The ratio is 1.5 Al : 7 KMNO4.

If you try this and it doesn't work, you have not followed the above instructions precisely.

[Lewis]

I stumbled across an odd flash composition the other day...

After I learned that Teflon (polytetraflouroethylene, I believe) was an oxidizer, I decided to test it out in combination with loosley ground Mg.

I threw together a tiny amount of soapy teflon shavings, and Mg slivers from a coarse grinding wheel, in a roughly 50-50 mix by volume.

Idiotically, I decided to light a tiny amount with a cigarrete lighter on a brick. After exposing it to direct flame for over 20 seconds there was an extremley BRIGHT flash, a quick woosh, and the air became filled with near wieghtless black feather-y things that I assume was unburned Teflon residue.

Seeing as the "experiment" was performed in a completley unscientific manner, I probably haven't learned much. (besides the fact that several thousand degree burns don't feel too good on the fingers)

I'd like to see more research done on this, but I can't be the one to do it.

[Bert]

There are photo flash mixes of military origin that are made with these chemicals. A search is in order. Finer particle sizes will greatly increase sensitivity, be careful if you do experiment with this.

[Lewis]

Yes, I realize my mistake now. I hadn't looked up the chemical name for Teflon in a while so my searches didn't get any results (switched uo for ou).

I read in an older thread that people had trouble reducing Teflon's particle size, and I can relate.

My method, to create a small amount of tiny chips quickly was to use an exact-o knife to slash many "channels" intersecting the edge of a piece of teflon. Then, I raked the blade over these ridges, which came off in pieces about 1mm long.

This wouldn't work for making a lot of teflon chips, nor does it make them fine, but for anyone who wants to give it a shot for fun, that's how I did it.

[Bert]

PTFE is available from the plastic manufacturers as a very fine powder. It is consolidated into the solid shapes seen in commerce by high pressures and sintering, often with various fillers added to improve the finished materials mechanical qualities. I have obtained this "air float" powder in the past- Combined with 2 micron Magnesium it was quite dangerous. The coarse particle size you used likely saved your fingers, hope the burns are healing OK...

[nbk2000]

What about laying a strip of aluminum foil on top of a similar sized length of Teflon tape, and then rolling it up into a tight rod?

Placed in the center of a charge, implosive compression should heat it up to ignition temps, right?

[spaceninja]

I have just made a very powerful but rather stable flash using KMnO4 and Mg powder.I did not have much time on my hands when i made this so never turned the KMnO4 into powder but left it in its original stateof small crystals(OK there was some powder in the tub) and mixed it with some magnesium that I had filed down(around 100 to 150 mesh).Mixed them,put them in a film canister,put a drop of glycerin in the canister and stood back.Purple sparks shot about 7 ft in the air from 2 grams of the stuff i was quite impressed.I then tested its sensitivity by scraping a very very small amont on a slab.It took quite a bit of grinding before it made a small bang.

[wymanthescienceman]

The best flash that I have ever used so far is made from KClO4/Magnalium - approximately 60/40. KClO4 is "Chinese Gourmet" and the Magnalium is an alloy of 50/50 Al/Mg at 600 mesh. The metal is sold on eBay, just do a search for it, it runs about $35/lb incl. shipping. It is super reactive, and blindingly bright. I have a video of a 25mg sample in the hollow point of a .177cal pellet on Google Video, just search "Magnalium" on GV and you should find it. I have dared make more than a few grams at a time as it explodes loudly in amounts over 250mg, and I haven't used KClO3 yet because I'm satisfied with what I have now and frankly I think it'd be too sensitive with it anyway. This flash doesn't even compare to any Al flash, I've compared it to 2 micron dark Al and it doesn't even come close.

[Trinit]

I have never made any flash powders with KMnO4. So I don't know if it is stronger than any KClO4 or KClO3 flash mixes.

A year or two ago though I made a flash using KClO4 and the 2 micron size dark Al. I experimented some with a couple of different substances to see if there was anything that I could add to the flash to increase it's strength.

I found that Fe3O4 helped increase the strength of the flash the most. I had never really heard of Fe3O4 being used in flash powders before, but I knew that it was sort of both a fuel and a high temperature oxidizer. So I figured I'd add it and see what would happen.

On it's own add to the flash the Fe3O4 didn't really do all that much. So I added some magnesium and a small amount of sulfur to help the magnesium burn more evenly because my magnesium powder was home made and courser then usual Mg powder. There was a fairly significant increase in strength between the new powder and the powder that had only Al and KClO4.

I was wondering if any of you have ever used Fe3O4 in flash powder before. It seemed to increase the strength of the flash quit a bit.

[Cobalt.45]

You said "on it's own... the Fe didn't do... much."

Don't you think it just might have been the Mg that added "power"?

[c.Tech]

The added iron oxide could have worked as a thermite by increasing the temperature of the mix when ignited, increased temperature means increased pressure (in gas laws) and if the amount added was small the temp increase could have occurred without decreasing the burn rate.

Although the sulfur you added would have lowered the temperature IIRC.

What does everyone else think?

[ressurection joe]

I was just dreaming of KClO4/Al flash, but with added Mg the reaction was alot faster.

So maybe that is what happened to you as well.

[Trinit]

I tried a flash with out the Fe only Mg and it was not as strong as the flash with the Fe.

I am not sure. I think maybe the sulfur helped my coarse Mg powder burn more evenly by producing more flames. I am not sure though.

I'm sorry, I didn't explain very well what I meant when I said "on it's own the Fe3O4 didn't really do all that much." What I was talking about was.

After I set off the flash with the Fe only. I went and looked at the material left from the flash and found a fair amount of Fe that had not been used in the reaction. I could tell that some of it had been used.

So I figured that although the flash reached a high enough temp to use the Fe it didn't not sustain the temp long enough to use it all.

So I added the Mg to hopefully rase the temp enough that it would use all the Fe.

C.Tech I think you are right. Except the Fe does not get used immediately. I think it sort of forms a secondary reaction, because it is used almost as soon as it is trust in the air.

It is hard to tell because it all happens so fast, but with thick sun glass you can see the second reaction take plaice.

I think the more dramatic increase in strength is because of this. I think that because the Fe is used in the air it lends more power to the explosion then to producing thermite.

I tried one time to video tape this to see if this was the case but it didn't work very well. The camcorder recorded it pretty well until the secondary reaction with the Fe. The reason I know that the Fe is used in the air is that.

Later when I watched the tape in slow motion I could see it ignite in the air. after the ignition though I couldn't see anything on the video, because it blinded it.

Unfortunately even with watching the tape frame by frame. I still couldn't tell much it all just takes plaice to fast.

I am by far no expert in thermodynamics this is just my theory. What do you guys think?

[Cindor]

Is not that you are making thermite when adding Fe2O3, in fact thermite burns slower than flash powder. Instead, the mix with Fe2O3 reaches higher temps, making it burns faster and increasing the volume of gas, and, in the other hand, act as a catalyst for the reaction to take place.

[augoldminer]

Be careful using sulfur in flashpowders. Years ago every time I tried to mix flashpowder with some sulfur that i picked up at a garden shop. It would go off.

Some times as I mixed a small amount. Some times a few minutes later.

What i found was that the sulfur contained a very small trace of sulfuric acid.

This is very bad.

This sulfur was a byproduct of oil refining,

The safest is to mix about 2% baking soda in the sulfur and grind it in a mill before using.

++++++++++++++

Improve your grammar, use a spellchecker, and ALWAYS capitalize the letter I when referring to yourself. NBK

[c.Tech]

What oxider did you use? Was it a chlorate?

[ElGreen]

I use finely powdered KNO3 and S, with a special Al, that is sold in paintshops. It is so fine that I can pour like water.
I use 20g in a thin wall aluminium box, for underground blasting. I can detonate it easily with electric ignitor.
It hits my chest when detonates, This 20g makes a ball sized hole in 50 cm deep. In damp sand.
10 grams from this FP can easily break a 1000kg weight limestone into 3 parts.

[gorillajoe]

In my experence KClO4 / AL 70/30 by weight. I once set off 2.5lbs of it in a flipped over car, the doors blew off and the strongest part of the frame was torn in half, the tranmission was moved about 15 inches, the seats managed to fly out the rear window, and the mushroom cloud was at least 70 feet tall and the shockwave was felt 200 feet away.