Natural Anticoagulants

[controlphreak]

I was watching a show the other day, and we were learning about the amazing power of leeches!

OK so now I have been on this kick lately to identify common plants and materials easily attainable in nature and common places to eb abel to creat quick, conealable weapons.

One of the things I was thinking about was since leeche saliva has a very powerful anticoagulant in it, why not be able to harvest it and coat knives or bullets in it?

Just somehtign I ahve been thinking about with other things. Will post more later.

[Jacks Complete]

...the amazing power of leeches!
They can bring whole websites to a crawl!

Seriously, though, that's not the worst idea I've ever heard. It would be fairly cheap and easy, and you could catch them from whatever fetid swamps were local to you. UK people might have some difficulty, though, as I've never run across a leech.

I wonder if an extremely powerful clotting factor could be used as a weapon? Stab someone, and the blood they have sets in the arteries. And there would be nothing that could be done...

[zeocrash]

UK people might have some difficulty, though, as I've never run across a leech.


Nope we definatly do have them you just need to look real hard. I managed to get bitten by one at the Reading festival in '04 (the wet year).

On the topic it may be worth a look at the venom of the russell's viper. even though it's technically classed as a coagulant I believe it have some effects that may prove interesting to you.
http://www.engin.umich.edu/~cre/web_mod/viper/introduction.htm

[chembio]

I think some hospitals keep leeches for medical purposes... Maybe you could go up and BS them about how you need leeches for a research project? They shouldn't be that difficult to breed (If I'm not mistaken they are hermaphroditic).

[hatal]

Just buy Heparin with fake prescription (or online). Thats the bodys own natural anticoagulant.

[nbk2000]

Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) is an anti-coagulant used to preserve blood collected for transfusion.

[ccw8076]

Since your purpose of obtaining Heparin would be to kill someone, buying it would leave a paper trail, and using a fake prescription would make it longer. If you live or work near a hospital, you can just steal it. In every vacutainer test tube with a green top or green tube, there is a small amount of Heparin.

I, myself, have thrown away boxes of these tubes, either because they were never used, or because they were tainted with other chemicals or blood. However, I don't think that someone you stabbed with a knife coated in a medical grade anti-coagulant would begrudge you a little Hepatitis C.

[ciguy007]

Actually, I think it's Citric acid, not ascorbic acid used as an anticoagulant in blue stoppered tubes. The relative concentrations are so high that there would be little likelihood of achieving them in a living person without extreme measures.

[hatal]

Since your purpose of obtaining Heparin would be to kill someone, buying it would leave a paper trail, and using a fake prescription would make it longer. If you live or work near a hospital, you can just steal it. In every vacutainer test tube with a green top or green tube, there is a small amount of Heparin.

I, myself, have thrown away boxes of these tubes, either because they were never used, or because they were tainted with other chemicals or blood. However, I don't think that someone you stabbed with a knife coated in a medical grade anti-coagulant would begrudge you a little Hepatitis C.

Heparin is given patients on regular basis to inject them selfs daily after certain surgeries (like joint surgery). They are given an injection-set with heparin making sure they wont suffer a post-operative embolia (mostly likely lung). Just a little pinch in your belly-fat for 2 weeks or so. Thats nothing unusual (atleast in my country). Ofcourse the substance isn't handed out OTC but there isn't much fuzz about it. Its treated in the same manner as antibiotics (same prescription "classification"). No pharmacist would accuse you of an attempted murder, or collect data beyond administrative necessity. You would have a much harder time obtaining anti-depressants like Valium over 10mg.

But if you're worried so much about being "traced", the best solution is rodenticides. Rat posions with anticoagulant effects. The first generation of rat posions which aimed to out smart the rats. Warfarin (main ingredient) given for a period of time produces internal bleeding (or external; rats fight a lot). So rats are smart enough to figure an "instant" poison killed their friends, but not smart enough to figure out a prolonged anticoagulant overdose.
Ofcoures this is nothing new nor its natural, but the results are the same. Better than "milking" the leeches, eh? ;)

[nbk2000]

" The adult body contains approximately 5 to 6 quarts of blood (10 to 12 pints). The body can normally lose 1 pint of blood (usual amount given by donors) without harmful effects. A loss of 2 pints may cause shock, a loss of 5 to 6 pints usually results in death."

http://www.brooksidepress.org/Products/OperationalMedicine/DATA/operationalmed/Manuals/Standard1stAid/chapter3.html

You don't need to put so much anticoagulant in the persons blood that they'll die from internal bleeding so much as to put enough in a knife or gunshot wound to ensure bleed-out from the wound.

[Hirudinea]

[url]You don't need to put so much anticoagulant in the persons blood that they'll die from internal bleeding so much as to put enough in a knife or gunshot wound to ensure bleed-out from the wound.

Then coating the knife with an anticouagulant could seem to be a good idea.

[ccw8076]

Warfarin (main ingredient) given for a period of time produces internal bleeding (or external; rats fight a lot).

Heparin would be one of the only compounds that would work in this situation. Warfarin is most commonly used as an oral anti-coagulant, and does in fact work better than Heparin in some situations, but it takes about 48 hours to achieve anything. It antagonizes the vitamin k in one's blood stream and causes it to prolong the platelet and fibrin process long enough for the clot not to occur at all in any specific place.

The only substance that works immediately to my knowledge is Heparin, we use it often to stop the buildup of blood from infected scabs to severe embolisms. Since this topic was about using a knife or bullet to "inject" a subject with an anti-coagulant while providing a passage of blood, Heparin is the only thing which would have a chance of working that quickly that I know of.

[W4RGASM]

Australian snake venoms have some particularly nasty clotting effects... Some pro-coag, some anti, but all are extremely effective. Basically, even if the patient survives the neurotoxic effects, their kidneys are shot to hell and the blood tends to be thick as soup, leading to a very unpleasant death.

The clotting effects wouldn't be applicable to, say, a knife-coating, as it takes a while to kick in, and many of the venom components denature in air.

[ccw8076]

I just finished up some history work on several European doctors, and I came across the fact that in 1914 Sodium Citrate was discovered to be an anticoagulant with great effect. I don't know of it's time necessity, but I do know that simply throwing alka-seltzer in a glass of water will give it to you. So it's pretty common and if concentrated could be effective as a weapon. Just throwin' it out there.

[Hirudinea]

I just finished up some history work on several European doctors, and I came across the fact that in 1914 Sodium Citrate was discovered to be an anticoagulant with great effect.

Sodium Citrate is used in blood collection vials to keep the blood liquid, I don't know how much you'ed need to keep a person bleeding.

[ciguy007]

Anticoagulation is attractive, but can be defeated by administration of blood products. Something that would trigger coagulation all over would be much more difficult to counter.

[James]

But it would be effective if the victim didn't want/couldn't get such products. U suppose that it might be possible (although far out out the reach of almost everyone) to create a yeast that would produce an amnesiac agent and an (anti?)coagulant in the wort. Brew a lot of beer and invite your enemy over to try your microbrew (unless it tastes funny, check it first damn it)