Does a 'Fear' Toxin Exist?

[hno3]

I recently saw batman begins and in it there was a man called scarecrow who used a dust that made people have violent panic attacts and gruseom hallucinations
I have done research on BZ and LSD but I was wundering is there any chem or chem combo that will

a) induce massive panic and grim hallucinations
b) release phobic reactions

[anonymous411]

Researchers have found any number of ways to induce panic in unsuspecting subjects: intravenous sodium lactate infusion, a single-breath inhalation of 35% carbon dioxide, intravenous cholecystokinin tetrapeptide, sertraline, et cetera.

Use PubMed to find unclassified research. (Though I'm sure the results of classified PSYOPS studies would be more en point for the forum... :) ).

"suffocation false alarm theory" (Klein, 1993) and "Bradford Non-Lethal Weapons Research Project" (BNLWRP) are other search phrases of interest.

[FullMetalJacket]

MKULTRA might yeild some incidental findings.

[Cindor]

What about the efects of 35% CO2?
Because I would like to try it on my self... to see what happens (with a friend next to me). But I would really like to know the efects (fear, duh... but how much and if it makes some kind of paranoia or hallucinations) before I try it.

[meyer25]

The british-made irritant CR (dibenzo-[b,f]-1,4-oxazepine), besides its very strong lachrymatory and sternic irritant action induces panic attacks in some subjects. Whether is this due to the strong pain induced by the compound or a specific neurotoxic action is unclear.

[Alexires]

Cinder, you know that panic like feeling you get when you hold your breath? I'm fairly sure that is what you would feel when inhaling 35% CO2.

Maybe do some research on research done about bad drug trips? Have a look at things like acid. Acid mixed with a little PCP and an adrenaline like of compound would give hallucenation with anger and possibly prompt a fight flight response.

Maybe leave the PCP out, to trigger a more "flight" response. So they start to trip, and then the adrenaline kicks in and they might think something is wrong, possibly prompting a bad trip.

If we look at the sympathetic nervous system here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_nervous_system) we see it is resposible for the flight/fight syndrome. It is generally triggered in the body by Acetylcholine being released into the blood stream, which would prompt the body into a fight/flight response.

I'm sure that there would be a chemical that is released that corresponds only to flight, so maybe if the subject was hit with a shot of Acetylcholine and this other chemical, they would go into flight mode and freak out.

Also, the amygdala (a part of the brain) becomes activated in preparation of fight/flight syndrome (read here (http://www.4therapy.com/consumer/conditions/article/7970/73/Brain+Chemical+Boosts+Trust+and+Short-Circuits+Fear))
A drug that increases the activity of that part of the brain may cause irrational terror.

Biology isn't really my thing, but that is what I interperated it as saying.

[anonymous411]

I actually volunteered for an "induced panic attack" sodium lactate infusion study. Absolutely horrible; nothing I'd ever want to go through again.

Since a needle couldn't deliver enough of the dose for a prolonged period of time, the first part of the procedure was to fit veins in both arms with catheters the size of small coffee straws. They kept jamming them up in there and not getting it right, so I was bleeding all over the place and it hurt like hell...I was thinking about quitting the study right there. Nice and stressful way to start a panic study, huh.

Then the real fun started.

The long and short of it is I felt certain I was going to die. I had the physical sensation that my heart was going to shut down and my liver burst. My tounge and lips were parched and all I could think of was my kidneys failing. Tears were streaming down my face uncontrollably...As the sodium lactate worked through my system, I started shivering, was drenched in a cold sweat, and my whole body clenched and unclenched in a spasmodic rictus. My hands, jaw, feet, spine, everything.

I didn't say anything, but involuntarily groaned a few times. I remember the attendant patting my arm and saying "you'll sweat it out." They eventually detached me and, fighting nausea from the water, stumbled into another lab room and slept like a rock for a few hours.

After it was over, the doctor said "You must be a very mentally strong person. Most people totally lose it." Damn, if I hadn't known it was just an experiment, I certainly would have. I'll bet if you gave this treatment to some unsuspecting schlub at Guantanamo, they'd be spilling their guts like no tomorrow. Why not? Safer than waterboarding (uh, at least I think nobody died from sodium lactate) and likely as effective.

Makes me feel really good to know I didn't crack up like the other research subjects though. :)

[Cindor]

Well, last night I tryied the CO2 method.

To get CO2 I mixed a teaspoon of Sodium Carbonate and teaspoon of Citric Acid. Not balanced but I wasn't looking for a "clean" Citrate, just some CO2.
I put water in a bottle, took the air away and mixed it with the Carbonate/Acid mix and close it strongly with my hand.
When the bottle was full of gas, I just opened it and took a big breath from it.

The felling was too short... something like when you are walking, concentrated in something, and a dog scary you out.
Then I felt a warm sensation, like if I where running of something, and then the adrenalin. I really enjoy that part... so to be sure of the results and get a little bit more of adrenaline I do it 5 more times:p

[meyer25]

Actually, benzodiazepine-GABAA-receptor inverse agonists like β-CCM (methyl β-carboline-3-carboxylate) and DMCM (methyl 6,7-dimethoxy-4-ethyl-β-carboline-3-carboxylate) are anxiogenic and panic attacks-inducing, as they are very much the receptor opposite of anxiolytic benzodiazepines, like Valium and Xanax. Whether they could be weaponized and how effective they would be in form of an aerosol is not estabilished.

[NoltaiR]

Not to put a damper on things.. but fumes from atomized gasoline works just fine. Especially if there is a way to force inhalation of a large amount. And if they don't cooperate, this obviously would set way for a very easy way to end things.

[Skean Dhu]

I'm, surprised noone has mentioned Salvia Divinorum. It can be smoked, eaten, infused into alcohol. I have read some reports of trips and they can be very frightening.

It takes anywhere from a 2-20 minutes to take effect and most trips last 5-15 minutes depending on the method of use. The plant is prefectly legal(for the time being) and is readily available over the internet for growing or immediate usage. I don't know if mixing it with anything(DMSO comes to mind) would speed up the reaction that causes the hallucination, or if that is a fixed rate.

Generally the more calm you are before it takes effect the more pleasant your trip will be. So it may be necessary to frighten the interrogation suspect after you give them the drug. Most of the frightening trips I have read have the same underlying theme: the world is literally falling apart or unzipping around them, beings who look like people they know are all around them and give the user the feeling that they intend them harm.

Reading the reactions of some people who knew what they were getting into leads me to the conclusion that it would scare the living bejeesus out of anyone who wasn't aware that they were given a hallucinogen.

[c.Tech]

This is funny :D. and interesting.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4930255321987211475&q=salvia

It wouldn’t be shocking to all unsuspecting people but would sure make them immobile, it may be fun like the trip jims having.

Please do a test on me ;).

Here are some more videos.
http://my.break.com/media/view.aspx?contentID=75946 - funny.
http://my.break.com/media/view.aspx?contentID=95516 - doesn’t look like he had a good time.

[fafner]

1-(2-methoxyphenyl)-piperazine,tested for antihypertensive properties,caused frightening dreams in hypertensive patients.In doses of about 400mg per day,the effects on the brain were more interesting than its effects on bloodpressure.

After single intravenous doses,the patients became drowsy or somnolent for about 12 hours.The same result occured early after oral administration,but in addition,after 2 or 3 weeks of medication,bad dreams occured regularly in persons who had hitherto been unaware of dreaming at all.

In some patients,the dreams were so frightening that the patient became very fearful of going to sleep.

[Nihilist]

A cocktail of high potency salvia, LSD, and meth would probably do the trick. Meth would chemically increase your levels of epinephrine/norepinephrine(making you more stressed out and in a constant "fight or flight" state), and salvia and LSD together would be completely disorienting and extremely scary.

[simply RED]

Yes it can be engineered!

The problem may be solved using the so called "psychoso-mimetic" method.

The psychic desorder, you have to induce in the percipient is OCD - Obsessive Compulsive Desorder. The other name of fear! OCD cases are accompanied by fear, haunting thoughts and acts, hipochondriasis, nervous behavious. Severe OCD cases very often end with suicide.
Patients with severe OCD describe the fear from the haunting thinking as worse than actually beeing dead.

While mild cases are described as light anxiety with no much abnormal behaviour, severe cases are composed of pure fear.

- from getting ill, attacked etc
- from making something wrong
- from unability to cope with haunting thoughts and acts
- from destroying the whole universe
- etc, etc...

The patients are capable of understanding that what they are doing is ill, crazy, has no sense, buy they can not prevent it from happening. This brings much of the severe OCD horror. The psychic is totally blocked!

So, OCD is caused by the disfunction of several neuro-mediatorical systems:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive-compulsive_disorder
Relatively good for OCD, anyway, reading for it from a good book is preferable...

So, find the most active agonists to:
H2
M4
nk1
non-NMDA glutamate receptors

And the most active antagonist to:
Serotonin
NMDA
mu opioid
5-HT1D
5-HT2C

And mix it! Not all needed, maybe 2 or 3 at most will be enough to cause severe OCD in the targeted subject....

I'm thinking for the creation of this weapon for a year till now, but never have time to complete it... So anyone who has time and will, may help find the best agonist and antagonists...

It is the word "farmakon" with 2 meanings... Reverse agonists with antagonists and from weapon - you have a cure...

[Nihilist]

Most dissociatives(PCP, DXM, Ketamine) are NMDA antagonists. Ketamine is probably the strongest, but due to it's propensity for making people unconscious, PCP is probably the best bet.

It seems also that some anti-nausea drugs are antagonistic to serotonin receptors, like Ondansetron.

[simply RED]

(nk1, non-NMDA glutamate receptors, NMDA) + (serotonine and opioid) seems to have very high effect on the OCD.
Firts 3 - core mechanism. Second 2 - majour modulatory mechanism.

Opioid antagonist + serotonine antagonist will cause fear and anxiety anyway (not as bad as OCD but still enough)...

[nbk2000]

So Narcan + Dilantin = fear?

[random136]

So Narcan + Dilantin = fear?


Fear would probably be the least of your victim’s worries after they are administered these two medications together. Both of these substances have long lists of side effects and counter indications that need to be taken into consideration before these two drugs (or analogs thereof) should be administered covertly. For instance, Narcan blocks some pain reducing endorphins (because they share the same receptors as the opioids that many patients of Naracan are addicted to). In high enough doses I imagine it could cause severe hypersensitivity to pain.

Having said this, procurement of these two substances should not be all too difficult for a determined individual, in our age of doctor shopping. I would assume that administration would be oral, perhaps mixed in food. The actual effects of these two medications working together in the body would need to be experimentally observed in order for more accurate conclusion to be drawn, but I hypothesize they could range anywhere from hilarious to fatal.

Another point that I meant to bring up concerning Narcan is that (and I have yet to confirm this, but I will search for studies in scientific journals I have access to as soon as time allows) if pre-administered Narcan can actually inhibit the hallucinogenic effects of Salvinorin-A, found in Salvia Divinorum. While my current source for this information is unreliable (unfortunately it is only Wikipedia), I bring this up because we have had many discussions concerning the use of hallucinogens as “knockout gases” and such. Most other compounds suggested for this use, required the attackers to wear protective gas masks in order to protect themselves from the substance in question. If this information is indeed accurate, the possibilities are endless.

Imagine if you will, walking into an area of interest, such as a private meeting in a room, carrying with you nothing more then an extract of Salvinorin-A in some dispersible form (use your imagination). If you pre-dosed with Narcan you could simply disperse the substance and watch as everyone becomes affected. The downsides to using a hallucinogen as an incapacitating agent have been discussed thoroughly here but I think this is still something one could keep in mind. The question now is, would the side affects of Narcan be worth the protection it offers and would Narcan allow for occasional single uses without risk of addiction/withdrawal?

[Nihilist]

Another point that I meant to bring up concerning Narcan is that (and I have yet to confirm this, but I will search for studies in scientific journals I have access to as soon as time allows) if pre-administered Narcan can actually inhibit the hallucinogenic effects of Salvinorin-A, found in Salvia Divinorum. While my current source for this information is unreliable (unfortunately it is only Wikipedia), I bring this up because we have had many discussions concerning the use of hallucinogens as “knockout gases” and such. Most other compounds suggested for this use, required the attackers to wear protective gas masks in order to protect themselves from the substance in question. If this information is indeed accurate, the possibilities are endless.


I don't think that would work. At least, not at a reasonable dose of Narcan. Narcan is a fairly selective competitive µ-receptor agonist(some activity at k, and delta, but not nearly as much), while salvinorin.A binds exclusively to kappa. There are kappa antagonists out there though, but they're mostly used in research, many of them actually in researching salvinorin. And i'm fairly sure I remember hearing that at least one of them did indeed inhibit its subjective effects.

However, Narcan + extremely high dose of salvinorin would be an interesting combination, if my above hypotheses are correct. An ultra high sensitivty to pain combined with salvia's disorienting dysphoria would be pretty difficult for anyone to deal with.

[simply RED]

(Ritanserin, trazodone or nefazodone) + narcan should work fine!
You have 5HT2-C antagonist + mu opioid antagonist.

Very nice will be to add nk1 agonist. This will induce a great deal of anxiety in the subject. nk1 antagonists are currently researched to fight anxiety.
""NK1 Receptor Antagonism for Treatment of Anxiety and Craving in Anxious Alcohol Dependent Subjects During Early Abstinence""

http://www.springerlink.com/content/k12247700j112754/
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/jmcmar/2004/47/i06/abs/jm034219a.html

Do not add amphetamine, MDMA, LSD, adrenaline agonists, etc!!!
Salvinorin A is under question...

[simply RED]

If nk1 agonist is totally unavailable it could be substituted with benzodiazepine antagonist.

Benzodiazepine antagonist (inverse agonist) (beta-CCM or DMCM) + narcan will also be an interesting combination.
Quite brutal I guess!

[Bilbe]

Having taken salvia 10X extract personally it is very disorienting however: The effects are short lived <15min, the peak is about 2min into the trip and you could fight through it. Salvia is very sparingly soluble in water or ethanol so covert administration would be a problem. (If the person knows they are taking it they will forget this as soon as they have done so.)

[gnshah]

It's called Dathura, I don't know what they call it in English but in here Pakistan and in India Dathura, it's a plant it gives people illusions and make them afraid of almost everything. even it's near you and for a couple of days you are living closer to it you start seeing things.

[sirchrissypoo]

I would imagine that the best route to go to cause a fear effect in an unsuspecting target would be the use of one or more hallucinogenic drugs, such as PCP. But you have to be careful, because mixing too much of certain drugs or mixing some very dangerous drugs could be much more disastrous than intended.

On another note, what kind of trip does something like peyote send you on? Is it more of a trippy drug or an acid like drug? From what I have read and heard, peyote can be a very vision inducing drug, but if you were trying to put them on a bad trip, it could be very effective.

[ultma]

It's called Dathura, I don't know what they call it in English but in here Pakistan and in India Dathura, it's a plant it gives people illusions and make them afraid of almost everything. even it's near you and for a couple of days you are living closer to it you start seeing things.

Is it Datura or its sister brugmansia with active alkaloids atropine hyoscine and a few others. The best I can describe it as is a waking dream.
However this combined with a opioid with an affinty for the u receptor (I recall a lecture where it was said the u receptor was responsible for nightmares as side effects.) might work, and I think there’s a hypertension medication that can have the side effect of very vivid dreams so vivid you can’t tell the difference between dream and reality.

[sbovisjb1]

I was reading this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17208313&query_hl=9&itool=pubmed_docsum and it was talking about "Substance P". This REDUCES stress and anxiety. What you need to find is a agent that diminishes the production. I was reading this Article (http://www.nature.com/emboj/journal/v20/n24/full/7594193a.html) and it seems to suggest that Sgk1 regulates the ion transport of Epithelium. Epithelium is found on the outside of skin and on the inside of organs. Epithelium cells function is to basically look after secretion, absorption, protection, transcellular transport, sensation detection, and selective permeability. (Taken from wikipedia). If Sgk1 is introduced into the blood stream or air (somehow), it will make these all go on overdrive (as I see it). Now the subjects sensation perception is much greater and its transcellular transport is greater. This article (http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.physiol.68.040104.131654). Said that "Although Sgk1 is a cell survival kinase, its primary role likely concerns the regulation of epithelial ion transport, as suggested by thephenotype of Sgk1-null mice, which display a defect in Na + homeostasis owing to disturbed renal tubular Na+ handling.", which suggests that if the person was in a threatening situation and we sprayed them with Sgk1 inducing toxin (Meaning if you either damage it or give to much, the person gets a defect in Na+ homeostasis) and we can basically make the guy scared. Im sorry if this information is to advanced or if i interperated it wrong, but its late and ill try to come back to it.

[mathel]

I know from BioPsyc classes and other courses I am taking, that a lot of the effects of drugs, more relevantly that of fear inducement or "bad trips" is heavily dependent on the individual who has taken or is under the influence of such substances. Intravenous sodium lactate infusion, as mentioned earlier, has a fear inducing effect on some individuals but not all. Research done on it showed that individuals who had a predisposition for mental instability showed the fear symptoms but not the control group. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=3953891)

To be fair to it though, I would say that it is a good place to start as the negative and harmful effects are limited and it is considered a fairly safe substance. Also other experiments show that its effect is the same regardless. If I am missing something please let me know.

[Hinckleyforpresident]

How about a datura/some amphetamine smoke grenade or aerosol mist? I heard about somebody on datura who cut out their tongue they got so terrified. Mixing it with a stimulant like speed or meth would certainly not help the situation.

[Pantonihil]

Quetiapine when mixed with Lorazepam can be disastrous! When administering to a victim 1000mg of quell with as little as 20mg of Lorazepam will slowly reduce a person to a state of overwhelming fear that lasts for several days.
Fight/flight will take effect after about an hour.

However Quetiapine is hard to get outside of jail or mental hospitals.
If you could get access to both, them you have a vary scary(literally) combination of drugs to be used on somebody that you really don't like.

I like the idea of Datura stramonium as a weapon, I like it allot, considering it was the first American chemical weapon, used by aboriginal people(Indians) against the British. Poisoned their drinking water didn't they!

I would think it would be hard to administer enough without giving the person a heart attack, and in the end there are much better poisons, like nicotine.

phencyclidine mixed with LSD would really F**K someone up, but you would have to get far away from them quickly, because PCP makes you angry and indestructible.

On that note I would never give an enemy something that pumps them full of adrenaline unless I was sure that the <b>Flight</b> sensation overwhelmed the <b>Fight</b>. Handing them a weapon, you would.

As far as substance P goes... you could inject someone with high amounts of N-[4-hydroxy-3-methoxy-benzyl]nonanamide. That would cause fear and pain immediately, but raise their tolerance in the process, inhibiting them from being affected by it, until you raise the dosage exponentially.

Of course the major issue with everything discussed so far might be how you would effectively get the stuff into their body. Without tying a person down and injecting, forcing pills down their throats, or filling the room with gas, none of this is vary practical, though quite fun to think about.

[nbk2000]

A preventive measure for PTSD is being developed, using a cardic drug, as well as a common psychiatric drug.

Dosing up prior to self-instigated conflict could prevent PTSD in yourself, as well as preventing any psychologically inhibiting effects injury may have on future use of violence by you.


HARVARD GAZETTE ARCHIVES

Pill to calm traumatic memories
Puts the mind's storehouse in order
By William J. Cromie
Harvard News Office

Every day, people suffer traumatic experiences that scar their minds. Combat, rape, bombings, burns, beatings, and horrific car accidents haunt them with
Wedig, Pitman, Buhlmann
Psychiatrist Roger Pitman checks a simulated test to detect the effects of post-traumatic stress disorder. Ulrike Buhlmann (right), a research fellow, adjusts electrodes on volunteer Michele Wedig which record rapid heartbeats, sweating, muscle twitches, and other signs of stressful memories. (Staff photo Jon Chase/Harvard News Office)
memories impossible to suppress. Such day- and nightmares are part of a problem known as post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD.

Psychotherapy - talking it through with a professional - doesn't always bring the peace PTSD sufferers seek. Roger K. Pitman, professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, believes such people can be helped with new drugs that he and others are testing.

"I feel that, sooner or later, we will find a drug that can prevent or substantially reduce PTSD," Pitman says.

He and his colleagues tested a tongue-twister of a drug called propranolol on 41 people who had experienced automobile accidents, assaults, and other traumas serious enough for them to be treated at the emergency room of Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston. The goal was to see if this drug, given within six hours of their mishaps, would prevent terrifying, indelible memories.

Tested three months after an auto accident, one young man, who took a dummy pill as part of the experiment, was still wary about getting into a car. He had nightmares. He sweated, his heart rate jumped, and he felt nervous anytime he got behind the wheel, especially in the area where the accident occurred.

In contrast, others who survived similar accidents and took propranolol had significantly fewer problems.

The most revealing tests were done three months after the traumas, when 22 of the victims returned to Mass General Hospital for evaluation. Eight of these people took propranolol four times a day for 10 days, but had been off the drug for more than two months when tested. Fourteen of the 22 had taken dummy pills, or placebos.

All of them listened to audiotapes on which they had described the incidents that brought them to the emergency room. None of those who took propranolol showed strong responses to the tapes. But eight of the placebo patients were obviously shaken by reliving their traumas. Their heart rates increased, their palms sweated, their muscles twitched - all signs of PTSD.

Living with bad memories

That's a pretty good result. It hints that giving propranolol to soldiers traumatized by combat in Iraq and Afghanistan, to young boys or girls who have been sexually assaulted, to victims of terrorist bombings and rape might be a good idea. But Pitman is a cautious scientist. Before issuing propranolol or any other PTSD drug to military medics, firefighters, police officers, and emergency medical technicians, more testing needs to be done with larger numbers of people.

Why did some of the people who didn't take the drug come out as well as those who did take it? What's the best dosage? What about side effects? To get answers, Pitman and his colleagues have begun a study that will include about 200 people who are treated for trauma in the emergency rooms at Massachusetts General and Brigham and Women's hospitals in Boston. Both hospitals are affiliated with Harvard Medical School.

Pitman's colleagues are testing another drug, paroxetine (Paxil), on burn victims. Paxil has already been approved for treatment of PTSD but not for its prevention. Propranolol is approved for treating hypertension.

Recently, investigators in France reported on experiments showing that propranolol reduces PTSD symptoms. Researchers at the University of California, San Diego, have also been testing propranolol and another drug called guanfacine. They are expected to publish their results soon.

"The object of these drugs is not to make people forget their traumatic experiences," Pitman explains, "but to reduce the intensity of the memories to a more normal level, a level that a person can easily live with."

He sees post-traumatic stress disorder as a perfectly natural process gone amok. Pitman puts it this way: Suppose one of our primitive ancestors, while looking for a good water hole in Africa, is attacked by a crocodile. That person had better remember where the attack took place or he or she stands to be removed from the human gene pool.

Activation of stress hormones like adrenaline in such situations stirs an animal or person to flight or fight. It also sharpens their memory. But, Pitman says, such a response sometimes "can be too much of a good thing. A process I call 'superconditioning' leads to the formation of a deeply engraved traumatic memory that subsequently manifests itself as the intrusive recollections and emotional responses of post-traumatic stress disorder."

Along with deliverance from death and disaster, you get a disorder. Propranolol shows a potential for curing that disease.

A widespread mental illness

According to a national study, about 8 percent of the U.S. population, some 20 million people, get PTSD sometime in their lives. It is the most important mental illness dogging the military. During the Vietnam War, about one of every three people involved in combat developed post-traumatic stress disorder. A surprising number of nurses who treated those soldiers, sailors, and Marines suffered from it, too. Pitman expects the same number of those who experience combat and terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan to be PTSD casualties.

Giving propranolol to combatants in the field is not an idea that pleases generals, Pitman points out. Its anti-adrenal effect could block the will to fight along with easing heart palpitations and nightmares. But it could be given to those who are being evacuated, if medics have a good idea of who is most likely to suffer the disorder. Pitman's colleague, Scott Orr of Harvard Medical School, is doing experiments with firefighters and police officers to try to identify individuals who are most likely to be traumatized after experiencing intense stress.

That type of know-how would be helpful for people charged with the emergency care of civilians. In such cases, there is the additional problem of obtaining informed consent to administer drugs. Then there's the question of what is the best time to give such drugs. "There must be a critical window of time when PTSD drugs would be most effective," Pitman notes. "In the study at Mass General we gave propranolol within four hours of the trauma, maybe one hour would be better."

Finally, there's the ethical question. Leon Kass, chairman of the President's Council on Bioethics, objects to propranolol's use on the grounds that it medicates away one's conscience. "It's the morning-after pill for just about anything that produces regret, remorse, pain, or guilt," he says.
Pitman, however, thinks that an effective PTSD drug would do a lot more good than harm.

Source:
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2004/03.18/01-ptsd.html

[simply RED]

"1000mg of quell with as little as 20mg Lorazepam"

This is just massive overdose, the most probable outcome will be- the victim to fall in coma...
And 20 mg is not "little" when referring psychoactive substances.

[Pantonihil]

You are right simply RED, 20mg of adivan is alot, but 2mg pills are vary tiny. I was thinking in terms of delivery.

I take 200mg seroquel in the morning and 200mg midday and 450 at night. I was really stressed out one day and started taking Lorazepam. Before I knew it I had taken 10 of them.

I ended up in a very bad place as the two drugs interacted. I am not a doctor so I don't know why the two do what they did, but 'Fear' is an appropriate term for the combination.

Sorry if my input was not appreciated.

I was worried that my claim on capsaision related chemicals(N-[4-hydroxy-3-methoxy-benzyl]nonanamide) would term out to be unfounded teenage speculation, so I tried it.

I took some bhut jolokia(Capsicum Chinense) spines last night and put them in capsuls. I took 12 of them, and I think I was right. I got a vary painful feeling in my stomach fallowed by extreme paranoia. I cried a little when I thought the feeling would never end.
I know it was not power of suggestion because my entire body was covered with sweat by the end of it.
The only thing that kept me sane was the thought that I did this to my self, and that it would all be over quickly.
After words I got an intense feeling of euphoria.

I think that extracted capsaisian given intraveiniously would be effective as a weapon.

[nbk2000]

This is painful to read...

[festergrump]

I took some bhut jolokia(Capsicum Chinense) spines last night and put them in capsuls. I took 12 of them, and I think I was right. I got a vary painful feeling in my stomach fallowed by extreme paranoia. I cried a little when I thought the feeling would never end.
I know it was not power of suggestion because my entire body was covered with sweat by the end of it.
The only thing that kept me sane was the thought that I did this to my self, and that it would all be over quickly.
After words I got an intense feeling of euphoria.

I think that extracted capsaisian given intraveiniously would be effective as a weapon.

Three things come to mind:

1) You are a masochist

2) Given orally (forced, of course) capsiacin might be an effective virtual "butt-out" as referenced HERE (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?p=95244#post95244) by NBK. Capsiacin as a fear-toxin, huh? I am afraid, but only for you.

3) If you did all this in the name of science then you are (dare I say?) 'a better man' than most here. I'd like to think most would use test subjects in such a way. I do not test such theories I may have on myself! WTF did you expect? :confused: :eek:

Indeed, NBK, that WAS a painful read. It is going to hurt itself one day, methinks...

Pantonihil, you should be all caught up with your offerings to "the porcelain God" for the next three years after this. (if you still live, that is). :rolleyes:

[Hirudinea]

A preventive measure for PTSD is being developed, using a cardic drug, as well as a common psychiatric drug.

Dosing up prior to self-instigated conflict could prevent PTSD in yourself, as well as preventing any psychologically inhibiting effects injury may have on future use of violence by you.



Source:
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2004/03.18/01-ptsd.html

I saw a documentary on this drug, an interesting thing came up in the study, the drug need not be administered before or shortly after the incident, it can be used years after a PTSD incident and is still effective.

In the documentary a woman who had been sexually abused for years as a child (and getting constantly raped by daddy can really fuck somebody up) was given propranolol in combination with psychothearpy, it seems that when one remembers the tramuatic events and is given the drug that the memory of the events is lessened, the drug seems to actually physically interfere with the process of forming tramautic memories and remembering them under the drug causes them to weaken.

So if you have PTSD you can treat it with this drug even years later. Heres a link that might be of interest (Sorry its just an abstract.)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T8T-4P1G931-2&_user=10&_coverDate=06%2F22%2F2007&_alid=594818882&_rdoc=1&_fmt=summary&_orig=search&_cdi=5095&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_ct=1&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=cff0ee031b688b5fbc74a7de54915c38

Oh yes, its also been shown that adrenaline does increase the formation of memory, so if you want to remember something, for an examine for instance, try getting in a fight before studying so you have increased adrenaline levels. :D

[Double-Oh-Zero]

From Wikipedia:

"The effect of the hallucinogenic plant Salvia Divinorum and its primary active chemical Salvinorin-A, a κ-opioid agonist, can be inhibited by the pre-administration of naloxone."

[russoc4]

I have been told by one of my more "experienced" chemistry professors that experiencing a blast on CO2 in the face is similar to the fizzy, burning feeling you get when gulping down soda, multiplied by a few thousand.

[blast_audit]

This is something that attracted allot of interest to me, I was in conversation with a herboligist and a chemical engineer when I brought up the Idea of a fear toxin.
A mixture of the following will out any one into a "fright trip"
A drop of Deadly nightshade
A drop of Foxglove (Digitalis)
and a Few leaves of Salvia Divinorum

This was confirmed by the chemical engineer his theory is that the initial process would be the fox glove inhibiting the oxidation of the blood;
and then the night shade would increase the blood flow.
These two in favor would enhance the "Fright" effect of the psychotropic effect of the Salvia Divinorum.

It would be interesting to see if the combination of the three could actually higher or increase the chances of having a fright psychotropic trip.

[MagicJigPipe]

I am pleased to see the amount of informed and inventive responses in this thread. It made me think of a lot of things that I never would have.

However, if I were to make a drug "cocktail" that I would use to induce fear in people. I would use:

Diphenhydramine HCl : causes flushing, goosebumps, racing heart etc...
Flumazenil (benzo antagonist) : causes wide range of NEGATIVE side effects including anxiety
Cocaine or Methcathinone (possibly epinephrine?) : just a small amount to stimulate the "victims" fight or flight response, cause release of norepinephrine and counteract the possible drowsy effect from the diphenhydramine

I would be confident to use this mixture if I had to in some sort of CO2 powered animal tranquilizer. There like ~$300.

[Horus XCIII]

There are some really odd designer psychedelics which would probably do the job easier than salvinorin (especially in terms of ease of administration - salvinorin is inactive orally, and must be taken sublingually, injected, or smoked).

Specifically I'd say DOM in large doses is a great bet. It's a substituted amphetamine and therefore known for speediness/heavy body loads (vomiting, tremors). Plus most of us have probably heard the story about how in the sixties DOM was available in 20mg tablets and many experienced acid-heads were sent to the hospital with horrible freak-out trips.

At lower doses it can be a normal psychedelic just like LSD, but I think in the 30mg range it'd make anyone have a horrible 24 hour freak-out, especially someone who hasn't done a drug like that before.

The synthesis isn't very easy though. It's a long process starting from toluhydroquinone (according to PiHKAL).

Still that's just one example. There are lots of nasty sounding drugs in TiHKAL and PiHKAL, some of them much easier to make than others.

Datura (Jimsonweed) might work, but it seems to make you so far removed from reality that you don't realize you're high and it doesn't seem to cause much fear, just very bizarre behavior.

Same for PCP, bizarre behavior but actual fear isn't its main effect; and Ketamine doesn't cause fear anymore than any other psychedelic. So I don't think NMDA-antagonists are the way to go.

Any psychedelic drug perhaps mixed with an amphetamine would do the job if administered in large enough amounts and without the victim's knowledge. AMT (alpha-methyltryptamine) or DPT (dipropyltryptamine) are two designer drugs that'd do the job well; AMT isn't too bad to synth from indole, same for DPT (can also be made from tryptamine).

[sbovisjb1]

I was looking at Anti-Depressants and noticed the drug Paroxetine. It is controversial, because it has many side effects. If administered, initially the person experiences elevated levels of depression and anxiety.

Also read this http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/reprint/10/1/176.pdf

[HypocriticalBuddhist]

It's called Dathura, I don't know what they call it in English but in here Pakistan and in India Dathura, it's a plant it gives people illusions and make them afraid of almost everything. even it's near you and for a couple of days you are living closer to it you start seeing things.

In English it's Datura and it contains huge levels of atropine and scopolamine. Not as huge as Belladonna, but huge. Causes vivid hallucinations, visuals, sounds, temporary blindness, slows most body functions, increases heart rate, etc. with effects lasting for days. Best of all, it's VERY easily aquired. I've never heard of a good trip at full dosage.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

From what I have been told LSD is not only not too tough to mfg but VERY difficult to detect after a period of time.

Without going into morbid detail I was a real child of the 60's and can attest to what it feels like to be dosed without forehand acknowledgment. It would be a toss up which has a more absolutely soul chilling affect upon the human psyche; that or for-motherfucking-real combat. To actually have reality altered for no apparent reason is so absolutely bone-chilling that the memory will stay with most men for life. If you have ever vomited or pissed yourself from fear; you know of what I speak.

.....Serious difference between feeling "weird" & sick from some mild toxin & a full half milligram dose of LSD without one's knowledge. Hearing odors & tasting colors is not fun if you don't know why it's happening. Watching walls melt and seeing patterns move on ceilings doesn't make any more sense than believing you have either lost your mind or reality is gone. The next step is believing you are going to die or ARE in the process of doing so. Combat?

I honestly don't believe that many people could remain OK after such an "adventure"..... And if they did come through it; those responsible would become serious targets of some VERY serious revenge.

[dhemor_]

I think that if one were to extract a gram of say, 10x or 20x salvia and launching the vaporised salvinorin A at the victim (if a mouthpiece could be used, even better), I think the dissociation (salvia is a powerful dissociative, and I feel it's dissociative effects are stronger than it's hallucinations) would cause a great deal of fear. Also, the sudden launch into a trip (especially in a psychedelic naive person) would scare them, causing a bad trip, leading to fear, etc.

[festergrump]

I'd be all too interested to know if there was something you didn't have an opinion on or be willing to throw your two cents in, to be honest. Do you have a degree in "everygoddamnthing"?

You may be a moderator (of late) but I care not at all. Your pseudo knowledge reeks of a member banned some time ago. Charles Owlen Picket (COP, a blatant effigy of another who made claims of giving the popuation the "truth"). You, sir, are a reincarnation of a bastard law enforcement officer (C.O.P.) and are a fraud to this society. You have been effectively banned from other forums for reeling such people into your traps.

These are my words and I stand by them. You sould be banned from here immediately, cop.

[Aristocles]

Well Charles:

I've been dosed nefariously and if you are sincere in comparing that to real close quarters combat- especially hand to hand- then you are frankly, insane.

Lasting effects? LOL! yeah, ok. As for the old neurological switcheroo... well, I think you know what I think of that.

Fester is correct. Lighten up on replying to every topic brother! It is acceptable to have an unspoken (untyped) thought.

[dhemor_]

Hearing odors & tasting colors is not fun if you don't know why it's happening. Watching walls melt and seeing patterns move on ceilings doesn't make any more sense than believing you have either lost your mind or reality is gone.

But that's the purpose of the whole 'fear' toxin, I would have thought? It would completely uproot their confidence in themselves, and utter fear would take over! It would bring anyone down, no matter how strong minded or drug experienced they are!
They would be in a complete state of shock and panic, so LSD seems like a decent 'fear' toxin I guess.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

You have been effectively banned from other forums for reeling such people into your traps.


Tantrum elsewhere. You said you were leaving the Forum over your misinterpretation of issues re: NBK but you couldn't get yourself to stand by your words now could could you? I'll bet you whole fucking life, that's your story. A real "man of his word". Live up to your own weepings and leave.

Bitter little bitch, if you had a problem, PM me. You have problems with initials? .....Self-pitying, bitter little felon - YOUR agenda is louder that you'd think!

We lost members who had REAL degrees and had serious knowledge of great & vast value due to their distaste for constant trepidation of posting "the wrong thing": that one person would have a tantrum (just like yours!). Screw that! People know the Rules and people have vast experiences that are varied and have value. Don't agree? Fine. But constantly looking for flaws and nitpicking are useless and limit input. The by-line of this Forum should not be fear but knowledge and new experiences..... It's called a knowledge pool and it doesn't happen by unthinking censorship.

I've heard all this shit before. "Your a cop", "your a minority", whatever....because I'm not afraid to voice an opinion or perhaps because I'm just a wee bit older than you and have a few experiences you have not. You're going to find that this world have a few people in it who DO know a bit outside your limited sphere. So where is it? You're going to throw another "I'm leaving" routine and pop back up? You got called on that one before didn't you? No....stick around and try to open up that mind of yours. You might even find the world isn't so filled with hate & distrust like you thought. You want a hug?

Aristocles: Serious high dose LSD without fore-knowledge is Goddamn frightening. I'm NOT taking about 250 micro grams: I'm talking about seriously high dose levels. I understand you may have been dosed but I'm talking about what was happening in the 60's where high-dose was the norm. The level of adrenal reaction is almost a cascade effect that mimic a fight-flight reaction. Quite frankly this is not even unique. It's what was studied in the late 50's by the gov't.

[festergrump]

COP,

It's no real secret that NBK and I are friends, so I may as well tell you. In two telephone conversations Art (NBK, for those who don't know) mentioned to me that he thought you were not only another member he had previously banned, but also that he suspected you to be either an LEO or a snitch. I know Art very well and know that he has a great sense for these things. I definitely trust his judgement.

As to why Mega decided to put you in such position of moderator here, perhaps only Mega knows (and it's his Forum, so he can do as he wishes), but I find it odd that Mega would do such a thing if he knew what Art thought of you. Perhaps Art never mentioned it to him, but he did mention it to me, twice.

Art never did let on to me which member it was that he had banned that he thought you to be, but he did say that he was going to ban you when you fucked up one good time, or if he tired of you, whichever came first. Of course, now he is in no such position to do so. Just thought you might be interested in hearing what the man thought of you, COP. Now you know.

FYI, it was Mega who deleted my ranting post where I threatened to leave. Those words I said in haste when all too many members cared more about Art's latest PDF and DVD release than for him at all, or the situation he was in. I thanked Mega for doing so as it was appreciated. Maybe Mega wanted me around? You'd have to ask him. The one who "called me out" on that deleted post was none other than Art, himself, under the name Man Down Under. He was clearly messing with me... But yes, COP, THAT was pretty close to a tantrum and I am not proud of it. I care about my friends, that's all.

I make no tantrum here in this thread, I merely call a spade a spade (or a cop a cop, in this instance) for Art is no longer here to do so.

The fact that you post in nearly every single topic insinuating you have almost infinite knowledge of everything, or at least an opinion on everything can be catagorized as either one of two infractions here at The Forum: Post Whore or Mr. Wizard. Take your pick. I'm not the only one here who gets tired of reading you on EVERY SINGLE THREAD. Perhaps you just like to see your name plastered everywhere.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore, COP. I just want everyone to be clear about what you are.

I'm here to stay, at least until Mega no longer wishes me around.

---------------------------------------------

Now, back on topic:

I have also been dosed with LSD without my knowledge and can tell you that it's simple to figure out what's going on and just sort of roll with it, especially if you've done some sort of hallucinogen before (you may be surprised how many people have!). You know what's happening to you once you start going and riding it out is way better than getting shot up with Thorazine to bring you down, or so I'm told by an old friend of mine who had just that very thing happen once. That can make you quite "different", I can assure you.

If I had to guess the dosage given me, I'd say it was somewhere around 500 mcgs. Much more than I ever dosed myself with, for sure. It was a bit crazy at first, but a rather nice trip once you start peaking. I recommend removing yourself from the public, though, in any case.

Something interesting I read about some time ago was that the human mind cannot process more than about 500 mcg of LSD at a time. More than that is a major waste. Can anyone confirm or deny this?


Stupid Joke Alert:

Q: What do you do when you take too much acid?
A: Take a couple of antacids. ;) (I warned you it was stupid).

[Telkor]

Any strong deliriant drug (Scopolamine, Atropin) combined with an irritant or any othe pain-inducing chemical will cause a severe panic attack.

The MKULTRA project used this combination as truth drug.

A high dose of Diphenhydramine and pepper spray should be plenty enough.

[megalomania]

Art never mentioned to me his suspicions, or if he did I don't recall. He did say something about the initials. As far as I am concerned, Fester has as much status as mod, so there is no rule breakage. I have never received a bad vibe from Charles, and I find his posts to be well written and well thought out. NBK commented voluminously on numerous topics, and that's why I made his a mod. The vitality of The Forum depends on people commenting, and not just "yeah" and "me too" type posts. The more content filled posts, the better.

The don't suppose any of us knows who anyone here really is. I suppose the moral of the story is don't do anything illegal, and if you do, try to change the law.

[Aristocles]

Mega:

It seems you have 'crowned' so many folks here with the title "moderator" that it is ridiculous. I have been on the web since 1996 and have in that time read many 'forums'. I used to have a huge website and forum, devoted to powerlifting. The idea that every shithead that comes down the pike is qualified to be a mod is naive. But alas, you will learn.

Take care and realize that with time comes wisdom, to all that hath a modicum of understanding...

[Intrinsic]

Although I believe this discussion in no way belongs in this thread, I still feel like I have something important to say about all this. I in no way intend to step on anyone's toes, so please excuse me if I am speaking out of bounds.

Aristocles:
I am not sure if you too have a problem with C.O.P. himself, or if you are just commenting in general, but as you said, not everyone is qualified to be a mod. This forum's subject matter does requires some technical knowledge, and mods do need to be well spoken, and in control of their emotions. I think that picking moderators is very important, especially in the huge vacuum we currently have had without NBK around. Post quality has gone down a bit, but the mods we have seem to be doing a pretty good job. (Although adding a dedicated grammar nazi mod would help a bit).

Although C.O.P. does indeed post in many threads, as mega stated: his posts are well written, and well thought out. He is typically around daily. (According to their profiles a couple mods haven't been here in a few weeks). I don't know if it is accurate, but according to the board pages, I believe C.O.P. is just a mod on the HE board. There are numerous mods in the water cooler, very smart of mega in my opinion, getting peoples feet wet, seeing how they do in actually doing the job, before getting them into boards that are more technical in nature.

In another forum I frequent (not science related), a longtime member (and frequent poster) got into a flame war with a fairly new mod, who had been around for only about 6 months. After about a week of the back and forth flaming, the longtime member quit the forum in anger. Now it has been about 3 years since this happened, and the mod (who is still around) spoke about the incident, he basically said that he "at the time was 19 years old, a bit of a hot head, having a bad month, and the argument never should have started in the first place".

Fester smartly said what he wanted to say, said it, and moved on. Lets follow his example and get back on topic.

[Aristocles]

If you read my original post you would see that it was germane. Perhaps it would be advisable to ask you TO MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.

As for COP's posts being "well written"... well.... that is certainly a subjective notion. His posts are, for the most part, clear. Although far from discursive...

Try taking your own advise: "Lets (sic) follow his example and get back on topic."

[Alexires]

That is enough gentlemen. The next person that goes off topic and starts talking about if "so and so" deserves to be a moderator gets to take an all expenses paid vacation from The Forum.

If you have a problem, take it up with a moderator or Mega himself. If you want a global discussion about it, start a thread in The Watercooler. Otherwise, shut up.

A thread about a "Fear Toxin" is not the place to be discussing moderation.

[Cobalt.45]

Something interesting I read about some time ago was that the human mind cannot process more than about 500 mcg of LSD at a time. More than that is a major waste. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

Depends on what you would consider a waste, IMO. Certainly you don't get twice as high or for twice as long from one hit as you do two. But with most people, a "critical dose" is reached that divides "enough" from "too much". I would consider anything beyond this point a "waste".

At some point the receptors would be full, at that point the effects would not be increased. What level of dose that might be would vary among individuals.

If you've ever attempted to trip two days in a row, you know that the effects are disappointing- you hardly get off. And no amount of acid seems to completely overcome this temporary tolerance to LSD. Only time seems to bring the mind's chemistry back to a point to where a dose is effective. 4 days minimum, 7 is better. This should be kept in mind by anyone using LSD as a "fear toxin".

Acid makers from the day, Owsley especially, pushed the envelope as to how much LSD should be contained in a dose. I believe orange sunshine, window pane and some of Owsley's white were as strong dose-wise as needed to be. But what the actual dosages were, who knows? Then, at the user level acid was dosed by the hit or half-hit, not by mikes.

Originally Posted by Festergrump- "I'd be all too interested to know if there was something you didn't have an opinion on or be willing to throw your two cents in, to be honest. Do you have a degree in "everygoddamnthing"? "

Damn son, why don't you just say what's on your mind? LOL

[jarynth]

A relatively simple inorganic compound that reportedly induces fear is HN3. Being very volatile, it wouldn't require complex administration procedures. It could be produced in situ from easily manageable sodium azide. (This comes from the sciencemadness.org thread about smells.)

[Hinckleyforpresident]

A relatively simple inorganic compound that reportedly induces fear is HN3. Being very volatile, it wouldn't require complex administration procedures. It could be produced in situ from easily manageable sodium azide. (This comes from the sciencemadness.org thread about smells.)

It might prove difficult to simply scare someone with an azide, especially a gas one, considering that azides are generally about as toxic as cyanides. HN3 would be far more likely to simply poison them and kill them, or blow up and kill/maim them.

[Alexires]

jarynth -
In reaction with water or Brønsted acids the highly toxic and explosive hydrogen azide is released.

Uhhh. Hinckley has it right. You'll probably end up killing them or poisoning them.

[Red Beret]

Datura Somniferum could be utilised here. It is a powerful deliriant, but then again, it dosen't nesecarily induce fear as such. Any decent psychedellic is going to wreak havoc, and induce fear on an unsuspecting target.

[ciguy007]

I think the GABA-A negative agonists would be the best answer. Think of a spectrum with valium and all its relatives on one end, flumazenil (rohypnol) being the "blocker" - a drug with a high affinity for the receptor and little or no activity. Now go to the negative end of the spectrum and you have agents which produce effects opposite to those of the clinically used benzodiazepines. I have heard pharmaceutical chemists who developed such compounds be quite alarmed at the number of pentagon personnel who showed up to hear their symposia.

[ciguy007]

The anticholinergics (datura, belladonna, BZ) do a nice job of producing delerium but a poor job of causing fear. During the army's treatment of chemical casualties course, the treatment for BZ exposure was to remove weapons from the victim(s) and let the drug wear off (which could take several days).

[Alexires]

ciguy007 - There is an edit button for a reason. Double posts make you look lazy, and lazy people get banned around here.

Don't do it again.

[The_Duke]

ciguy007 has been warned three times now about double posting. As a result of this he has been given a four week ban from the Forum.

[simply RED]

Summarizing: a mixture of Mu opioid antagonist and GABA-A antagonist should be extremely effective.

[Darkfox]

A high dose of scopolamine and atropine would do the trick; it's easily available from natural sources (Datura). The hallucinatory effect is much different from all other psychedelics (from my experience of an accidental low/mid dose) in that there is no true distinction between reality and hallucination (delirium), as in NOT the neon kaleidoscope of colors and geometric patterns (LSD high doses, mescaline, DMT) but rather experiences of what one is accustomed to seeing but fractured or multiplied (extreme spatial distortions) and 'real' hallucinations. I think the US used it in desert storm for 'interrogation' purposes.