nitro powder

[kanbayat]

I thought you guys might get a kick out of this old recipe from "the thecno-chemical reciept book 1896. I have not tried this if anyone has let me know if it works.giant powder 2 mixtures are prepared: a. 36.06 parts of potassium or sodium bisulphate,28.60 of P. nitrate,and 9.20 of glycerine.
b. 50 to 55 parts clorate and 50 to 45 parts a substance rich in carbon.
On igniting a mixture of the 2,it is claimed that mixture b evolves sufficent heat to effect the nitrifcation of the glycerine and explosion of the notroglycerine. the material rich in carbonis saturated with the concentrated solutions of bisulphate,nitrate and clorate and dried. the mass is then mixed with the glycerine and made into cartridges.
sounds strange.lol..do any of you chemistry hounds have an explantion as to if or how this would work?

[da man]

i don't know much about chemistry but what i think happens, is that the sodium bisulfate and potassium nitrate react at very high temperatures to form nitric acid (see the topic in the nitric acid section), which would then react with the glycerine forming nitroglycerine which is detonated by heat. However, i certainly can't imagine this working realistically, because with just a quick burst of heat like that, only little will react forming nitric acid, and (it will probably be decomposed and vaporised), and nitroglycerine must be formed at lower temperatures, or it will just plume nitrogen dioxide (or possibly explode in larger batches), it would also need a lot more time then a split second to react!
So, it odes have logic behind it, but i doubt it would work.

[inferno]

The only explanation is what da man said. But doesn't NG require mixed sulphuric and nitric? And it can't form NG in a a fraction of a second like that. I very much doubt that works. Even if it did work, and it detonates upon creation, the first part to detonate would throw the unreacted ingredients in all directions stopping further nitration of the glycerine.

Its also saying the heat speeds up the nitration. IIRC NG is made in an ice bath? I cant see any way that this would work.

[oryp69]

the sulfuric acid in the nitro recipe is just used to dehydrate it while it is nitrating, i don't think that it is completely necessary, but it helps the nitro to nitrate correctly by i guess you would say kinda absorbing the water that is not needed...i may b wrong on this but i think that is the main purpose of the sulfuric acid

[PYRO500]

The H2SO4 is necessary beacuse for one it does absorb water already existing in the solution and secondly it absorbs the water produced during the nitration, in fact I believe it is something like 2.5 units of water are produced for every 1 unit of nitro. That is not to say you wouldn't get any nitro out of your reaction but the yeild would more than likely be very shitty and the super concentrated HNO3 might not like directly being splashed with glycerine. In fact you would probobly have a hard time controling the reaction and ruin your batch.

[kanbayat]

The recipe I mentioned is called "a new method for preparing giant powder". The original patent is for I guess old giant powder. It consisted of:40 parts nitro,40 parts s. nitrate,6 of rosin,6 of sulphur,and 8 of infuserial earth or other analogous absorbant substance.
This forms a powerful blasting compound, whitch will not ignite from contact with flame nor from a blow,but may be readily exploded by the shock givin by discharging a cap containing fulminate.
So it looks like someone tried to prepare the new compound from somthing safer than nitroglycerin,but in those days ppl were always going boom in the production of nitro. I am quoting from the book.
The formula was patented it said,but goes no further with it. As to whether the "new giant powder" was ever used or what.
Interesting though.

[Mad Scientist]

Sounds viable. Very interesting... brilliant idea. Possibly suicidal though - if the nitration will begin without initiation by extreme temperatures (very possible). Go ahead and give it a whirl, but start small (less than two grams of total combined mixture). Have a bottle of water on-hand; if it starts fuming NO2, drown it.

[da man]

Mad scientist, the reaction will not happen without very high high temperatures. As sodium bisulfate and potassium nitrate react at around 300-400*C, so the point is that the nitroglycerine will detonate as soon as it is formed from the heat needed for the nitric acid to form.
If you plan on doing this, what i would do is make composition A (start with about 4g of glycerine first) and wrap it up in a peice of aluminium foil. Then place it ontop of a cup of very hot composition (such as thermite, but you could use something less hot). Then have a fuse leading into the hot composition in the cup, light the fuse and run!
It's possible that it work, if you have the chems i'd try it but be careful!

[Mad Scientist]

I'm not so sure that the reaction won't happen at lower temperatures! Some nitric acid will be present, due to reaction equilibrium - and that may be enough to cause the temperature to spiral out of control. Be careful! Don't make such assumptions that an explosive, of a completely foreign class, of which we have very little information on, is actually safe. Just because it's patented doesn't mean it's a good idea either. After all, perpetual motion machines (cannot exist) have been patented, and they do not serve their purpose or live up to the description provided to the slightest degree.

Chemistry isn't that simple - it's not a giant compilation of facts like "Substance A + Substance B = Substance C". It all has "grey areas" (for lack of a better term), caused by factors such as equilibriums.

(edit: typo)

<small>[ July 01, 2002, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: Mad Scientist ]</small>