EMP Hard Drive Cleaner

[Alexires]

Hello,

I have posted this in the Water Cooler as I'm not exactly too sure where it belongs. I have run a search for EMP and found nothing, but I have a funny feeling that the search funtion isnt functioning too well. No matter. Forgive me if this has been discussed before.

Someone who isn't me was talking to me about how their hard drive would most definately be incriminating, and it occured to me that maybe a remotely activated EMP device would be useful. Not too big, with only enough range to cover the size of a PC box, activated by someone dialing the phone (attached), then typing a code in on the key pad (as against it activating when rung).

I'm not overly experienced in electronics (who's lying, I have no idea really whatsoever), but surely this couldnt be too hard? Probably the hardest part would be linking the phone to set the charge off. The capacitors could be charged by a battery, which is in turn charged by the computer when the power is on (at the powerpoint, not the actually computer turned on).

It was just an idea running through my head. Any input would be appreciated.

Alexires.

[Jacks Complete]

It's a good idea, but a little off. Basically, an EMP pulse isn't going to destroy what is on your harddisk unless it is both very powerful and very close. After all, the discs are designed to be very resistant to accidental damage from magnets, and they use a very powerful magnet to read and write.

You would do better using the EMP to reboot the machine and scramble the RAM, and then explosively or otherwise shatter the harddisk platters. The EMP would probably not be needed though, as you could just cut the power!

Not a terrible idea for a first post, though.

[Alexires]

I agree that it would be easier to use a small charge to destroy the hard drive(s), but I shudder at the idea of having primaries near my hard drives, as they are on all day and hot primaries make me scared.

I forgot about the RAM, so thank you for reminding me. Maybe I was being a little too high tech, would it be possible to wrap a wire around the hard drive (electro-magnet style) and then just use a capacitor discharge to create a strong magnetic field for a second?

Ahh well, just shooting ideas into the air.

Thanks for the input!

[Marvin]

An accident though would lose a lot of data.

Better to encrypt, a system that loaded an encryption key from a USB dongle would be safer. The chip in the dongle could be wired in such a way as easily broken say by a strong spring and the contents backed up or set to a hash of a memorable phrase for recreation in case of an accident.

Destroying a HD with explosives or magnetic pulses may be spectacular, but its an accident waiting to happen and isn't required for security. Its also prosicutable in its own right, and isnt that part of the point?

[Jacks Complete]

This is true, being prosecuted for that would be a dumb trap to fall in to. Of course, in the UK you can get 5 years for telling someone the police demanded your encryption keys...

I think a better solution might be to use a RAM disk with a UPS, such that the key is lost if the power is turned off. Turning the power off is the standard operating procedure for the UK police. This can be used against them, of course. The destruction has to be complete, and obvious, though, otherwise you risk 5 years for failing to hand over your keys on demand.

Police state, anyone?

[Alexires]

Hmmm, I'm not too knowlegable on matters of technomagic (read encryption). I'm a little dubious about encryption, because it can be cracked. Scrambled/melted hard drives cannot be. Also, I'm sure that operating systems keep a back up of stuff around, and anything that has been "deleted" may not be truly deleted. With something that results in the total destruction of the hard drive (magnetically or from explosives) wouldnt be fixable.

Please don't mistake me for someone that wants their computer to dissolve in a gout of firey glory. God knows, it would probably end up killing one of the government people there and I'd get done for that.

[Chris The Great]

Yes, encryption can be cracked, but it would take a supercomputer a decade or so to crack a single PGP key. Even the US military can't devote that kind of sustained computing power just for you.

There are programs to overright deleted files with gibberish, although the military can still read them up to about 300 rewrites or so (though, you'd have to have done alot to get that special treatement). Generally, the cops can find something you have deleted and rewritten over once or twice.

A rocket engine might make a much more controllable HDD destruction than thermite, and has less chance to spill molten metal all over cops to get you life in prison. Maybe have a two second warning were it screeches and shoots out smoke so they drop it before it rocket fires and incenerates the HDD.

[Alexires]

That rocket idea is a good one. *mutter* I feel a little stupid now. Ahh well, its bound to happen.

On matters of encryption, it just doesn't ring true. It just doesn't seem to me that it is a smart idea for governments to have encryption that they can't break easily. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the government would have a way to break the encryption of anything commercial nowadays without spending a decade trying to decypher it.

Please, be sure to tell me if my logic fails here, but would you want your enemies to be able to make it so you cant read their files?

Ahh well, just something to ponder about.

[Chris The Great]

Not giving your encryption key to the police carries a minimum 5 year sentence in Britain.

Newer, non-open source encryption software may also have a "backdoor" route built in which is why it is recommended to not use the newer, non-open source PGP programs.

[Dave the Rave]

I don't know, but in Brazil we don't have any such laws. Here the computer related crimes are an new legal issue and there are not laws concerning crytography... For some time I've dreaming about EMP and HDs, and on my wet dreams, an 1500w magnetron could fry prety good an 80 GB seagate !

Did you remember those old 486 ? They came all equiped with an "security" Key, that physicaly shuts the power on the PC, so it could not be powered on. So, using one of those old desktops, with new motherboards and such will keep you an key that can be used to cut the power to the magnetron prior to activing the PC.

If the power isn't cut by the key, when the juice flows through the system, the magnetron fries the HD. To prevent someone to open the machine to overrun the key, we can hook up one small contact point and even an tilting system to one of the screws, and when someone turns it, the contact is made and de magnetron is juiced up.

[Alexires]

The problem there lies in the fact that I'm pretty sure that the feds would remove your hard drive, and a magnetron sitting on top is going to be pretty frigging obvious. The key idea is a good one, maybe something electronic built into the hard drive itself so there is nothing visible, and powering up the hard drive without disabling causes bad stuff to happen.

*wink* This is almost reminiscent of the kewl idea of the match head powder in the floppy disks causing it to melt. I've never tried it, but it sounds pretty far fetched. Ofcourse, this isnt just some bullshit, I'm pretty sure thermite would screw up your hard drive ;)

[Jacks Complete]

That match trick would work well, I recall it from school. I may even have one somewhere!

Alas, with a HDD it wouldn't work, since the disc spins all the time, and unless you could be sure that the disc head would never go to the flammable bit - which you couldn't, as modern HDD have all sorts of on-board diagnostics such as SMART, and they re-map dodgy data sectors on the fly to unsed parts of the disc.

I'd go with a few gigs of flashRAM and a destruction device for that. It's quite cheap now. Keep everything dodgy on that, encrypted. There are loads of them that have self-destruct systems built in, too, so if the password is wrong three times they self-wipe. Add to that a mechanical device to crush it flat, and you are away. Heck, just a bench vise would do the job in under three seconds, or you could swallow it! (But don't go with CompactFlash or SmartMedia for that!)

[ImagineReality]

This is my first post on Explosives and Weapons so i hope it's ok.

Ok a quick review of all options.

EMP and Deaguassing

EMP i am afraid won't do enough damage to a drive unless you use an extremely powerful pulse. Yes a powerful homemade magnet will damage it but some stuff will remain, either in part or whole files.

Degaussing completely removes every bit of magnetism from a drive. This basically destroys it with little chance or recovery. Companies pay literally thousands of dollars for degaussers and sadly a homemade one just won't do it i don't think.

Overwriting with a secure erase program

Overwriting is a sound option. Using a secure algorithm like Gutmann or Schneier, the file is pretty much destroyed. Schneier uses 7 passes, gutmann does 35 and can take a while. Since we are obviously talking about doing everything quickly this may not be the best option unless you can prevent entry to your property or room until it's done. But some files or parts of files may still be able to be recovered using varies techniques including a magnetic force microscope.

Thermite

Hey this is the explosives and weapons forum right? My preference would be this if you only have say 20 seconds. You could happily leave a flat packet of this in your computer above the hard drive, don't let it touch the drive as the thermite will absorb alot of heat and may cause the hard drive to overheat and be damaged. All you would need is a nice piece of magnesium ribbon sticking out the front of your computer and your done. Light it and laugh as whoever comes through the door smells burning drive. The great thing about this is that it is quick, unstoppable, can handle multiple drives and will completely destroy every platter in the drive (platters hold the magnetic data).


For maximum security if you have time you could use the overwrite option and then light the thermite, but i doubt you would need to.

I hope this was ok for my first post. Bye all.

[ImagineReality]

I don't know how to edit posts so i apologise for double posting.

I recently found an old 40GB hard drive so I thought I would do a test on the thermite idea. I have run out of Aluminium powder and anything to set it off with, but it is on order, so it should only be a week before I can do the experiment. If someone could message me on how to present this to the forum I would be grateful as I am new here. I can take pictures of said experiment to show the results. Thanks.

[Jacks Complete]

Overwriting a terabyte of data is going to get you nowhere fast. 15MB/s transfer & write speed is fast for an external drive, so to overwrite 7 times, you get 2.1Mb/s tops. A 60Gb drive will take around 460 hours to complete the pass.

Get the police to send you a postcard next time!

Or use a flash RAM card...

Or stick to the topic here. ;-)

[ImagineReality]

Jack it depends on what you are destroying. I keep all my files on explosives and the like in a single folder. I have done a practice erase and it took about 3 minutes. I think I can keep someone out my room for that long.

The subject here was EMP but it simply won't work completely enough, and even producing the required pulse will be near impossible. I will run the thermite test when I get the required supplies. Again if someone could mail me on the precedures of sharing this experiment of mine then I would be grateful.

[nbk2000]

I've seen a magnetic-flux field-collapse compressor that can shrink a quarter down to the size of a dime using electric discharge through coils. In Popular Science, I believe.

Something like that is do-able (for $$$), and would not only wipe the drive through magnetic flux, but also physically destroy the disk in the process of compressing it. :)

[grendel23]

I have a Radio Shack tape demagnetizer, #44-233A, that will wipe a hard drive in about 2 seconds. There are several on E-Bay, such as here (http://cgi.ebay.com/Radio-Shack-High-Power-Video-Audio-Tape-Eraser_W0QQitemZ5860767768QQcategoryZ294QQrdZ1QQcm dZViewItem).
This unit draws 1000W, so keep it away from your credit cards.
I wiped a hard drive and after I was done even the low level factory formatting was gone, since only the factory can do a true low level format, disk was junk.
A paranoid person could attach one of these to the top of their hard drive, hooked up to a big red panic switch.
An even more paranoid person could even put a small ups into the case along with a demagnetizer hooked up to a tamper switch, if someone opens the case, they are greeted by a humming sound and a blank drive.

[ImagineReality]

Read the part in the The Rules FAQ (the link in my signature at the end of every post I make) where it explains how quoting entire posts is NOT an approved activity.

Ok well that sounds promising. Should I bother doing the thermite test now? Sounds like it's been covered with the magnetism idea, I didn't think it was that easy to get something that could wipe it completely.

[Jacks Complete]

Those last two are brilliant ideas. I've seen the flux compressor work on aluminium cans, and it is dramatic, but I hadn't though of it here. The tape demagnetiser is like the thing off Fight Club, I assume, when they do the raid on the video store. I assume it would work PDQ!

Both need a mains connection, though. That's the only downside I can see.

[nbk2000]

Yes, do the thermite test anyways, as it's always good to have alternate means of destruction in case 'They' cut the power, eh? ;)

[bipolar]

I was thinking about doing a test on an old hard drive with thermite. I was thinking the best way might be a plastic of paris casted thermite brick the size of the hard drive would do the trick. (edit: I see the brick part has already been discussed)

I was also thinking that someone could use durhams water putty, clay, or something of the sort to make a heat resistant holder for it, so it doesn't burn right through your Hard Drive and desk(or anything) and catch everything else on fire.

It would contain more of the molton iron and maximize the damage to the hard drive

[croc]

I know I wouldn’t use thermite, if it wasn’t properly controlled it could burnt right through thus burning down your house Or it could start a fire inside the PC tower.
I would rather use some type of acid, dose anybody know what the plates on the hard drives are made of?

[Chris The Great]

I once had an old open hard drive, and some 32% HCl stripped the coating off the plates very quickly. If the drive was spinning, and was suddenly filled completely with acid, I think the coating would come off nearly istantly.

The problem is getting the hard drive set up to have acid injected into it at the press of a button, without damaging the hard drive while you set it up for this.

[Alexires]

*laugh* I know I started this thread, and I know it says EMP but maybe I was being a little too high tech. Thermite really is a good idea. Its hot, bright, probably going to fry anything it hits and doesn't need mains power to set off.

I'm sure that if someone was going to do this, they would have some kind of insulation to stop from burning down their house. Asbestos matting used as heat mats in labwork may be feasable, but without further testing, its a little hard to say.

Thinking about it, I would set it up so that if the case was pulled apart, it causes a chemical ignition to start, thus igniting the thermite. If "they" cut the power, it wont matter. Something subtle to use as the kill switch, maybe rig the floppy drive button as the ignition. Have it so it looks like there is a floppy in there, with the button sticking out, but hitting it breaks a vial of acid which in turn ignites some form of ignition which ignites the thermite. Maybe you could rig it so there is alot of acid, so if the worst happens and the thermite doesnt light, there is a chance the acid would do its work on the hard drive. *shrug* just an idea, let me know what you think.

[ImagineReality]

Ok well I should have the items I need for the thermite test in the next couple of days. I still really need someone to tell me how to present this to the forum. I can take pictures and write the article but how do I post it? Do I use a PDF file or post it directly on the forum? If I use pdf I can upload it to the ftp but then not everyone has access to it.

As for protecting your house, well if they are breaking down the door then it shouldn't be hard to get the fire brigade round quickly. I am using a LIAN-LI case which is pure aluminium so it should offer some protection, but as suggested some kind of protective housing would be good. Maybe just a simple drip tray under the case would be enough as this is where most of the liquid iron would be going. Clay and plaster of paris have been suggested and these seem good enough to me.

I was reading up on the Radioshack magnets and I have a small problem with that. Fixing one of these inside a case won't be easy as few cases are big enough, and using a UPS inside the case as well will be virtually impossible. I have an old server case somewhere and it would have trouble holding all that.

The acid is a great idea but then you have to punch a hole in your hard drive to make sure it enters and that is risky at best. Hard drives don't respond well to being messed with in that way.

As for detonation of the thermite using a panic button, well I was thinking of using a switch, motor, 9volt battery, match heads and a piece of magnesium ribbon. This would be reliable and safe. Or you could use the glyercine and potassium permanganate fuse, this in my mind would consist of the potassium permanganate sitting on top of the thermite and then a button would pierce a bag of glycerin which would drop onto it. I am sure someone can come up with something better but that was just a quick thought.

[Jacks Complete]

Since someone is bound to ask, a good and effective way to trigger Thermite is to use nitro powder with Magnesium ribbon in it, as a thin layer over the Thermite. The nitro won't burn/light the Thermite, but it will light the magnesium ribbon, which in turn burns down a little and triggers the Thermite.

Be careful though, since if this triggers in the crime lab, or whereever, they might think it was a duff bomb, and charge you accordingly. Make sure it either goes off before/as they remove it, when you press the button, or not at all. "Maime a policeman" may be funny, but not when it is directly linked to you, and you are already in custody! Obviously, if your house is on fire as they try to arrest you, you can try to escape in the confusion, and you can also hope the fire brigade tramp in and destroy and contaminate pretty much everything for you! (They normally will, unless they let the fire burn, in which case, sue the police for setting your house on fire with an incediary device... And claim off your insurance.)

[croc]

The police may check for explosive devises inside computers before opening them up. They would see some odd thing heading towards the hard drive and think it could be a bomb.
Is there any chance they might not remove the hard drive but instead run it from your computer?
Another idea would be to write a program for when windows or another processor starts up it requires a password, if this password isn’t entered within 20 seconds it sets off mechanics built inside your hard drive to light the thermite. Although this would only work if the hard drive there trying to run was set as the system drive.

[Alexires]

I have absolutely no idea about what techniques are used to check the pc for some kind of device, but it its x-ray, lead shealding. As to accessing it remotely, just keep the harddrive in a shitty old box with no lan/modem (although cops trying to download someone's hard drive with dial up speeds give me a good laugh).

Maybe instead of trying to wire the computer to set the charge of, just have a seperate chip on some seperate board installed, so that a 10 digit code needs to be entered before it will even turn the computer on. If its entered wrong once, then it fries your HD. If they try and open up your box, the mechanical switch kicks in and kills your HD. I doubt they would try and cut it open, but maybe have this all enclosed in a smaller box around your HD, so they cant cut it open without risking the HD.

The nitro covered thermite/Mg idea is a good one. In my experience, I've had Mg go out after about 10cm of burning, but covering the block of thermite and a strip of Mg in nitrocellulose (im assuming thats what nitro is) would be pretty sure to get it burning.

Some of you might say the code wrong=dead HD is a little harsh, but lets face it, for something that important, I'm not going to forget the password, are you?

[croc]

I herd somewhere that nitrocellulose decomposes over time and can go off with out warning. (Bullets are different though they use stabilizers in there smokeless powder.) If this is correct I wouldn’t think of using it in my HD.
One must also use substances which cannot be set off by sparks caused by static electricity. Would this mean the powdered aluminum in thermite could be set off by a static spark?

EDIT: This has been a sucessful thread, I think it should be concidered moving to "Tools, Techniques and Plans."

[ImagineReality]

OK i'm getting really annoyed. I typed out a massive long post yesterday on this thread but it still hasn't shown up! My posts take a while to appear and often don't come up at all. What am i doing wrong here? I don't have this problem on any other forums. Help someone please.

+++++++

How about looking back at the previous page, where your post IS, before complaining about it NOT being there? :rolleyes:

[ImagineReality]

The last post of mine that I can see on the previous page is:

[QOUTE]Ok well that sounds promising. Should I bother doing the thermite test now? Sounds like it's been covered with the magnetism idea, I didn't think it was that easy to get something that could wipe it completely.[/QUOTE]

I have posted one since then, unless my computer isn't displaying it and yours is, which I suppose is possible.

Anyway I should be doing the thermite test on the weekend, I'm beginning to wonder if it will be enough to damage all three platters of the drive though.

[croc]

until you see the post o he forum u should back it up. i keep my posts in word until i see they have gone through.

[nbk2000]

Croc, you need to improve your grammer skills ASAP or you're out of here.

This is NOT a chatroom or IM session, it's a bulletin board, where the workds you write will still be read(able) years later.

So if you can't be bothered to keep the beginning of your sentences capitalized, along with the letter 'I' when referring to yourself, perhaps you'd be better offf over at weirdpier or TOTSE.

[xyz]

I second that, spelling and grammar are important.

Sorry NBK, I just had to... :)

[croc]

Sorry about my spelling and grammar in my last post, it won’t happen again.
I could have sworn that I put it through spell check and fixed all on my ‘i’s to capital.
Because the edit button has disappeared on that post I would like to correct ‘o he’ to ‘on the’.

[fr0sengh0st]

If going using an explosive or thermite to destroy the hard drive then you could keep it in a safe. The SATA interface permits long enough cables for this to be feasible (through a small hole drilled in the side), and would stop there being any risk of a fire or injury to the people searching the house. The device could then be set off if the safe was tampered with or forced entry was attempted.

Better still would be a flash hard drive like http://www.bitmicro.com/products_edisk_35_ide.php - there’s no prices so I guess 77.8 GB of flash memory isn’t going to be cheap :) . This dive comes with built in hardware to


From: http://www.bitmicro.com/kb_public/faqs/fq040517-02.php
• PowerGuard has three erase modes - Power-Down Erase, Instant Erase and Standby modes.
• Power Down Erase mode allows the E-Disk flash drive to erase automatically and irretrievably all data stored if external power falls below the threshold voltage.
• With Instant Erase mode activated, all normal operations of E-Disk flash drive will cease and all data will be immediately and irretrievably erased.
• Standby mode gives the user the option to erase all data stored in an E-Disk flash drive configured with a PowerGuard unit for a period of time after the external power source has been removed. This allows the E-Disk flash drive to be transported for an extended amount of time without external power, while maintaining the ability to erase all data saved in non-volatile memory.

Whenever you see news reports about police removing computer equipment they always seem to just carry out the case and put it in a car etc. With a UPS backup (for power cuts) and the “Standby mode” when they unplugged it, 5 mins later and it’s all wiped.

I would also always use encryption if I had something to hide – 5 years maximum sentence for withholding an encryption key is going to be far better than the sentence you might get for the information on your hard drive.

[Alexires]

You know, I heard this story one day that someone made a big sign saying "CITY CLOSED" and put it next to a highway leading into New York. Traffic halted, because people believe what they read. I'm not trying to refute your post fr0sengh0st (hah, a poet), but just because they SAY it can be wiped and all data made irretrievable doesn't actually mean it CAN be done. Maybe I'm paranoid.

The safe idea really is a good one though, I didn't think of it at all (obviously). That would mean lots of thermite, less chance of fires, and more chance of watching the feds sweating and grunting trying to pull a safe from a room *grins evilly*.

Another possibility is having an acid sprayer in there. Spraying some trifluoromethanesulfonate around (one of the strongest acids known) would be bound to ruin a HD, and a good suprise once it eats through the safe, through the car and starts on the road *chuckles*

[fr0sengh0st]

Ok, fair point – I did quote the manufactures information which is usually/always biased to make their produce sell.

The fact was that the hard drives were solid state NAND memory, not that they happened to come with special features for removing the data after a time delay.

Using NAND chips means that there is no “memory effect” like in the magnetic data on a hard drive platter which previous information can be gathered from once it has been overwritten once. Also unlike a hard drive platter the chips cannot be removed and put under a microscope without destroying any information they may hold.