Prison Break.

[Alexires]

This is purely a work of fiction. All opinions discussed hence forth are hypothetical and have no relation or bearing on current events...

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The crackdown has come.

We didn't act fast enough and the moderators, admins and the knowledgable among us are behind walls of steel, concrete, rebar and razor wire.

The rest are crippled without information, only knowing what we have gleaned off TV, the scraps that the media and government allow the sheeple to know.

Then a beacon of hope.... Someone discovers where the leaders among us are being kept.

The call goes out for supporters, for alone we are weak and little can be accomplished alone. Would you help to liberate our leaders from the confines of the government holding cells?

[fr0sengh0st]

It becomes harder to formulate a coherent plan because of some guy who keeps asking for a amphibiancide for civilian militants against a clone invasion of the time (read the latest banned for life post) - and there is no NBK to ban him. Luckily its possible to get his IP address off the RS server and trace it back, he then becomes part of “operation human shield” or he might even ‘volunteer’ for a one way explosive run to take out a guard tower ;).

[Alexires]

Yeah, I read that post. It confused me alot. I'm glad people agree with me in the fact that it made utterly no sense, unless you had just been on a 5 day starwars binge with a bit of LSD thrown into the mix.

Prisons are made to keep people in (duhh), so a co-ordinated attack from the outside would most probably be successful in my opinion. With the number of people around here, it is most probable that a few people would live close enough together to make up a team of 12. With the knowledge between them, I'm sure they could get the mods out. But that isn't the question.

The question is, would you do it?

[Chris The Great]

I'd be there (either because I'm breaking people out, or because I'm actually being broken out).

It would need to be a team effort but it could be done. I imagine it would be easier than breaking out. The hard part would of course be leaving, so we can open all the prison doors at once and drop some tear gas to rile up the rest of the inmates to cover our escape.

This is quite an interesting "story" we're working on here :D

[Jacks Complete]

Cheers, guys!

I've often pondered just how solid those walls are, and how tough the bars. To an inmate with intelligence, they are all solid obstacles, and getting past any one or two of them might be possible, but defence in depth is what they go for. And the 35ft sheer external brick wall is normally what halts even the best of prison breakers. Of course, bringing a large section of that down would be tricky, but the resulting confusion would be ideal as cover for someone who was out of their cell, and expecting it. They then rope down the other side's wall, and calmly walk to the car that has been left for them, with a change of clothes. Meanwhile, the guards & then police scramble and seal the breach, as the inmates riot. (Assuming they would!)

Destroying the entire prison outer perimeter might be the best thing. Make it all fall down. They would then have to keep the entire place in lock-down until they secured the area, or re-built some walls, or, more likely, they would transfer all the inmates to other places over the course of some days. With the sudden boost in paperwork (and law suits) it would be a lot easier for someone to roll in and take a transfer bus walkies.

[akinrog]

First of all such an operation must be performed at lightening speed in order to preclude possible back up and reinforcements from appearing.

There are two options IMHO: the first is to break in and recover certain inmates, which necessitates good planning, insider knowledge of the prison plan, and good timing.

The second is to create a large commotion to induce riot amongst the inmates to recover certain inmates and allowing others to escape.

However the key issue here, as I said before, is the timing and speed of the operation. If you are slow then you get busted together with other inmates. In my country's case, prisons are secured internally by the wardens (unarmed) but externally by the Gendarmerie (sp?), armed with heavy machine guns.

In case of an attack / operation, they (soldiers) will immediately call for reinforcements and you will be fighting with troops armed to the teeth. Regards.

[bipolar]

Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans, the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces, the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field, and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War

So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
- Sun Tzu

It's definently not best to just use brute force to solve everything or break out of a prison. Ideally you don't want to kill anyone unless neccessary, or you'll guarantee a nationwide manhunt of your ass. And give them a better excuse to get people to turn against you.

I read about a group of former Israeli Special Forces, etc. who will break any Jew out of jail for about 100,000 dollars. They say they don't do it in western countries but only have done so a couple of times because it was family. They said that they can't reveal their methods, but basicly. They stake out the jail for a few weeks or months doing surveillance and planning. Sometimes finding informants willing to give information for money, or getting jobs or pretexting entrance to the prison. They usually coordinate a plan with the inmate to fake symptoms of a serious enough sickness so they will have to be taken somewhere for treatment. They then just ambush and surrond the transport vehicle on its way and recover the prisoner and use other techniques to take him out of the country.

[Alexires]

First of all,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Prisons_in_Australia

That will let you have some info about different prisons in Australia. Some info is exceptionally useless (I dont care when it was opened), while other info is a little more useful (security type, eg maximum).

Second, the website for the Adelaide Remand Centre (a maximum security facility) complete with a photo tour *chuckle*
http://www.corrections.sa.gov.au/prisons/photos/photo1.htm

Now, whats would really be handy would be the architechtual drawings for these buildings. As the government is predictably systematic, I'm absolutely certain that plans would have had to have been submitted before building commenced. Alas, that is where my good ideas run out. Where would these drawings be? Are they available to the public? If not, how hard would they be to get?

And to our American counterparts, forgive my ignorance. I have seen on movies where people can walk into a library and look at the city building plans and things. Does that actually happen, or is it just a wet dream I've been having?


Onto security. Speaking for the SA area and quoting from the website "Situated in the Adelaide CBD (Central Business District), the remand centre is capable of accommodating 247 males who have been charged with offences and their case is before the courts."

How interesting. As it is located in the CBD, what are the chances of the guards weilding automatic weapons? Very little I say. I'm guessing that they wouldn't be equipt with more than normal police (.45 magnum, pepper spray, batton and radio). If they needed re-inforcements, then they could call the normal cops, or STAR (sort of like SWAT) in special circumstances. Ofcourse, I dont think that in the hypothetic situation that anything happens, anyone breaking in would be there long enough for STAR to assemble.

Alternatively, if action wasn't taken in time, then the prisoner would be moved to another facility. Depending on what the crime was, and how cooperative they were, they will either be sent to one of 3 places, I believe. There is the centre at Murray Bridge, a low to medium security facility. I quote "The prison is laid out in campus style with several accommodation units of cells. During the day prisoners are allowed open movement inside the grounds to attend education, work or programs." Easy enough.

Next on the list of 3 is the Port Augusta a low/med/high security facility. From the photo, it looks as if there is a fair bit of open area there. This is probably the least likely of the prisons for someone to be sent to, unless they are idigenous.

The last and certainly not least is the facility at Yatala Labour Prison. Most likely to be sent here, Yatala is at 1 Peter Brown Drive, Northfield, South Australia aka Hellonearth. SA is backwater, Adelaide even more so, and the most noteable feature of Northfield is they have a prison. Congratulations guys. Anyway, Yatalia is big, its ugly, and made of concrete, steel and razor wire. Its divided into 4 sections, E,F,B,G. E is where all the inmates get sent first of for assessment. After that, they either stay there (low security) or they are sent to F,B of G. F is the working class of Yatala, and do all the work. B section is for medium to high security inmates, and G section is.... well... you know that part of the matrix, where they have to break Morpheus out? (sorry for the reference). Yeah, well thats G section.

Yatala would be the most difficult to get out of. Personally, I'm a fan of the night break out as opposed to broad day light. The best idea I'm thinking would be a kind of diversionary attack. One on the far side of the prison, make it look like a botched escape attempt while the front is hit. Im guessing 5 mins, tops to get in and out, unless you want a shitload of guards and police on your ass.

Anyway, thats all I can think of to say today.

Uhh, if its not too much trouble, could one of the mods PM me and let me know how far I can hypothesis before I go out of line and attract too much attention please? I feel like I'm pushing it.
ANYWAY, this is all hypothetical, and I was only using Yatala and other correctional *cough* brainwashing *cough* facilities as examples and so forth. This isn't ment to incite terrorism or anything like that.

[Edit: Formatting]

Have fun people, and dream the good dream.

[Chris The Great]

Actually....

Yeah. Might not be able to walk right in to see them but it shouldn't be too hard. Or check out the authors books. If you could see the large plans, take a few high res photos and then touch it up to look like a scan.
http://www.lib.jjay.cuny.edu/info/speccoll/Johnston%20Collection%20of%20Prison%20architectura l%20plans.pdf

Hmm, shouldn't be too hard if the prisoners can hold off in an 11 hour siege.
http://www.emergency.com/austriot.htm

[me234]

I don't know about the mods, but as far as I'm concerned, push all you want. This is an individual place, we encourage individualism, say what you want, it's not necessarily the opinion of anyone else here (probably is actually, but it wouldn't be the first time people here had differing opinions).
Besides, we are not APC and Sciencemadness, we will not run scared, if they shut down, I get the feeling somewhere, somehow, a new RogueSci will open up and restart everything all over again.

So, in closing Alexires, PUSH BABY PUSH!:D

[Alexires]

Ok, this is just a quick post.
http://nicic.org/Downloads/PDF/Library/015061.pdf
Thats a link for the "small/medium prison building guide" given out by the US department of correctional services.

I haven't downloaded it yet, so I have no idea if its any good, but just a little food for thought.

I might go to a uni or two on monday, where they offer architecture and see if I can get them to give me drawings or something.

Sorry about such a brief post.

[FUTI]

This is actually on the line of what Vietnameese done in Tet ofensive I think. Storm the prison and arm the prisoners. Simultaneous riot and blown perimeter is the way to go I guess but then it must happend in the right time when the guards are on the highest alert during the day - walk in the yard + you have to coordinate the attack in and outside.

Anyway you all asume that guys that fall down in goverment hands that they regards highly dangerous will be kept inside the country and that "resistance" cells can pinpoint their location. But they keep islamic terorists all over the world in millitary bases and other states prisons that use other prison systems and building technology...if this is the case with our "fallen member"....what then?

[nbk2000]

A chaotic event is what's needed.

Dropping hundreds of pipe slam-bang shotguns with 5 rounds of ammo (buck and slug), plus bolt-cutters, explosive charges, and other weapon/tools of escape, with instructions in pictograph/english/spanish/russian onto the yard from a stolen plane when a lot of the inmates (and the POW staffer) are out, would definately cause chaos. ;)

In conjunction with a car bomb taking out the fence line or wall, plus snipers firing on the guard towers, and smoke covering the yard...we'd be outta' there! :p

But first you'd have to find us. :(

I don't think they'd let us make collect calls out from quantamino bay. ;)

Thus the need for a quantum entanglememt modem implant. :D

[Alexires]

Firstly, I'd like to praise NBK as a well of wonderful ideas. Heh, the first time he has posted on one of my threads *chuckle*.

Ofcourse any idea could be altered to suit the situation that it needs implementing.

Maybe Australia is weird, but I don't think that the security is nearly as tight as it is in the US. As I've said, here, armed means you have a gun. In the US, armed means you are carrying a good rifle, lots of ammo, a side arm, probably a knife and combat armour.

I'm fairly sure that through observation it would be possible to work out when the maximum amount of inmates are outside. Stealing a plane would be an absolute pain in the ass, and would mean you need to know how to fly one as well (which I don't), as well as the probability of having the airforce on your tail.

Here's an idea. Probably a few centuries out of date, but still....

I've seen a trebuchet (medieval kind of catapult thing) throw a VW a long way through the air. Instead of flying over, why not throw it over the walls? A big metal crate, padded and filled with weapons and explosives falling out of the sky is going to cause some bloody chaos in a prison. Or instead, start throwing big rocks into the walls of the prison. With modern physics engines, and machining precision, I dont see any reason why you couldn't break open a prison like that. The force behind a marble rock the size of your head would be enourmous. The record is something like 1394 feet (about 424 metres).

Just some food for thought.

[Jacks Complete]

I'd go for something along the lines of a water-filled container and a pneumatic or explosive firing system. Special forces use them for knocking down walls in a fraction of a second for entry, and the water ensures that the people behind the wall (more than about ten feet away) are perfectly ok. (I can post some specs in a bit if anyone is interested in more about them. Who am I kidding? I'll post details & ref.s tomorrow)

Use a few of those to flatten the entire external wall on one side. Then do the same on the other side.

[sungod]

Second, the website for the Adelaide Remand Centre (a maximum security facility) complete with a photo tour *chuckle*
http://www.corrections.sa.gov.au/pri...tos/photo1.htm

Having stayed at a couple of Australian 'security' places I would have to say that the ARC is nice. They give you your own key to your cell which has its own shower even. Breaking out would be nigh on impossible but an external attack would work based solely on the fact that they aren't expecting trouble from that direction.

Many years ago the NSW government opened a youth detention type centre called Bidura which was meant to have high security but stupidly had staggered outdoor balconies that could be used to jump down to the street. if this wasn't stupid enough you could use a comb to gain access to the 'locked' balconies and then freedom was but a hop, skip, and a jump away.


Only serves to remind what little shits some of us are when we are kids

[Chris The Great]

Link doesn't work.

Thanks for the information... I guess it really depends where they put you on how easy it will be to escape.

[JakeGallows]

The idea of a prison break is an intriguing one. Since each prison is constructed differently, a different plan of attack would have to be used for each. Nevertheless their are universal tactics that could be employed. I would like to suggest though that escape is only half the battle, the other half (the harder, in my opinion) is evasion.

With regard to escape (consider that many of these are to limit the amount of people necessary):

- Dropping weapons and implements of escape and destruction are certainly worthwhile tactics in order to create chaos and confusion
- Having snipers attack guard towers, keeping the guards from stopping prisoners is wise. An addendum would be to use the disposable telesniper discussed elsewhere on the forum.
- Using car bombs to break down the walls would certainly work. You could also use mortars, on time delay and hidden to break down the walls/fences.
- Utilizing something to jam cell phone and radio frequencies might buy you some time and keep LEOs reacting instead of acting.
- Radio controlled model airplane or helicopters could deliver explosives to guard towers, communication centers, power lines, power generators, etc.

With regard to evasion (this is the tricky part, particularly considering such a high profile escape):

- Purchasing one or more Crown Vics and dressing them up with the markings of local, state or sheriff's cars might enable you to bypass checkpoints with a little social engineering.
- One has to wonder if having a secure, very hidden location fairly close to the prison wouldn't be a better strategy than running. Don't do what is expected.
- At the secure location having a nice long road that could be used as a flight strip could be useful for flying away from the scene.
- Causing collateral damage at an alternate location, timed just before the prison break could draw police presence away from the prison itself, buying the escapees more time and less heat.

Just a few thoughts.

[Alexires]

Personally, I think that if you have enough will, and enough patience, then nothing is totally secure. You can break out of anything, although I might be seriously wrong, but it gets me through the day *wink*

[nbk2000]

It's not only a matter of having the time and will, but also opportunity, to escape.

If you're in the colorado supermax, 100 feet underground, never having human contact or leaving your cell, with 24/7 in-cell video surveillance of you taking shits...what opportunity do you have to escape?

And there's been countless times that prisoners have escaped, but of those, how many stayed out more than a few days? The vast majority of escapee's are recaptured within days, if not hours.

No sense in escaping if you're not going to stay out.

[sungod]

One has to wonder if having a secure, very hidden location fairly close to the prison wouldn't be a better strategy than running. Don't do what is expected.

You reminded me of a funny story. There's a youth training centre near Gosford (north of Sydney) called Mt Penang Training School for Boys. It is situated near a highway and on a mountain.

Every morning when the doors were unlocked and the boys were taken out for parade at least 2 or 3 lads would take off like rockets for the run down to Gosford through the bush. It was pretty much inevitable that they would be caught and the worst part about it was that they were caught by trustee's who were given the official title of 'Dingoes'. The irony of the fact that a dingo is a type of dog was obviously lost on them.

Anyway, the security level depended on which company you had been assigned to with 4 coy(first timers, short termers, and protectees mostly) having windows to the outside world that opened far enough to get through. One day, a smart young lad(not a dog) from 4 coy climbed out of the window, walked about ten paces, climbed a very tall pine tree and stayed there until the search was over and in the early hours of the morning climbed down and ripped off a screws Commodore(infamously easy to steal Australian built car) and escaped.

He was caught within days as his dick started to think for him and he went to his girlfriends house. The lesson here being that if you abscond from custody you are going to be hunted mercilessly and if you fall back into old patterns of behaviour and/or circles of friends/acquaintances then you are going to get caught and you are are also putting other people who don't deserve it at possibly great risk.

I have read that when hiding it is often a good idea to be up above those that are looking for you as apparently human beings due to their foreheads do not have good peripheral vision in the upwards direction. I guess this is by design to stop the sun getting into our eyes. This is not a recommendation for hiding in trees unless absolutely necessary as a good hiding place has a number of avenues of escape.

Any resemblance to any person living or dead is purely circumstantial and this entire post may be a figment of my fevered imagination.

[sungod]

Link doesn't work.

Adelaide Remand Centre (http://www.corrections.sa.gov.au/prisons/adelaide_remand_centre.htm)

NBK: The post with the dud link I made above that Chris commented on doesn't have an edit button whereas this post and the one immediately prior to this one both have edit buttons. Is this normal?

[nbk2000]

You have only a limited period of time in which to edit your posts.

This is to prevent people from going back to really old posts and deleting them or altering them to something unseen.

[Alexires]

NBK: Good point. What the bloody hell would you have to do to end up there?

But then again, surely if you were going to do something that could end you up there, you would have a contingency plan. Well, I would attempt to have one so that the opportunity does present itself to escape if the shit hit the fan.

It never occured to me why escapees go to see friends/significant other/parents or whatever when they break out. Sure, they might help, but isn't it even SLIGHTLY obvious to said escapee that the orificers will be waiting?

Be smart. Have a few caches around with some money, clothes and a few other essentials NOT too close to your home. If you live in the city, have it in a suburb that is away from your friends, family or anything else. If you live in the country, and it isnt that far from town, hide stuff in the outskirts. If your way out of the city, go for a road trip to visit your local state jail.

If you had enough money and thought it highly possible that you may end up in jail, have a few caches within a couple of kilometres of each jail. In Australia this wouldn't be too hard, because we dont have that many jails.

I'm just shooting this off the top of my head, so if you see any glaringly obvious flaws in it please say so.

[akinrog]

It never occured to me why escapees go to see friends/significant other/parents or whatever when they break out. Sure, they might help, but isn't it even SLIGHTLY obvious to said escapee that the orificers will be waiting?

The answer can be simplified as estrangement. If you serve in prison for prolonged periods of time (say more than 5 years), then you shall not only be estranged but also benumbed to a certain extent.

When you make your escape and get free, you shall be stupefied since for a long time all you see is gray (or yellow) walls, all you see as a female soul is either your relatives or those ladies who are visitors of the other inmates. And in addition, prisons have unique codes of conduct and since you served in prison for a very looong time, you get used to that code of conduct and behaviors of other people seem outrageous to you (i.e. it's possible for you overreact to something which is totally normal in the outside world but against the codes of conduct you are used to and therefore get caged again).

Even when you are released after you fulfilled your sentence, you shall for a long time feel strange amongst the ordinary people. Females seem strange to you, since you start seeing them as irritating whiny bitches. Even busses with large windows shall look strange to you since prison transport vehicles generally have very small windows which are covered with a steel reinforcement net to make them hard to break but this very steel net combined with small windows and chain shuckles around your wrists and ankles shall obscure sightseeing. When you see you can go whereever you want without taking risk of solitary confinement, being stabbed or raped, your mind shall also be confused :eek:

If you served in a prison cell even sunlight shall seem strange and hilarious to you. And since you (had to) become an bipedal automatron for survival, listening to orders of bosses (i.e. wardens), you shall also feel strange, for there is nobody telling you what to do and how to act.

So when you are free, you shall become a fish out of water, not knowing what to do and if you are an escapee then most probably your lower brain (cerebellum???) (part of your brain which is responsible for instinctive movements) shall force you to find a safe place and you shall find yourself before the door of your parents or beloved ones.

So as a result; unless you are a trained man (not an ordinary criminal) with many connections to the outside world, then it seems quite difficult not only to escape but to stay out as NBK says. Regards.

[sungod]

What the bloody hell would you have to do to end up there?

I have a friend in Yatala Labour Prison here in South Australia and he is doing seven years. His crime was to give someone a lift home. During the lift his mate made him stop at a milk bar(drug store/deli) for cigarettes. When he finally got home and pulled up his driveway he was surrounded by police for his involvement in an armed robbery. He would have got less time but he wouldn't admit to his guilt and kept coming up with a 'fanciful story' according to the judge.

This is one of the reasons I don't support the death penalty. I think some people deserve to die for their crimes but while there is even an infinitesimal chance someone innocent is going to get murdered (it isn't an execution if they are innocent in my book) then it shouldn't be happening.

BTW: he stood staunch for which I think he was a fool

[nathan]

Yea sometimes faking "repentance" saves you a whole lot of shit.

I think it would be possible to break someone out of any prison save maybe the ones with incredibly high security.

A successful break out depends on your time, manpower, planning, and resources. With enough of these you can do almost anything.

[Alexires]

I suppose I can't really talk, as I've never been in the position where I have been imprisoned for any length of time (no more than 3 days), but surely one would be able to remain sane inside.

I have no idea how bad prison could be, but I think the prisons in Aus are not as brutal as the ones in the US so hence my opinion. As long as you look big enough to take care of yourself, and don't piss anyone off you should be alright, yeah?

I wish there was a way to train in breaking out of prisons and such, but alas...

[nbk2000]

...but surely one would be able to remain sane inside.


Define sanity.

The whole thing is setup to make you insane. The higher the level of control they wish to exert on you, the greater the pressures they bring to bear upon your sanity.

Lighting patterns that are disruptive to the sleep cycle. Food depelted of essential nutrients. Rules and regulations of behaviour intended to reduce you to the dependency level of a small child. Total lack of any intellectual stimulation or learning through reading.

Though they'll let you watch all the TV you want, so what does that say about TV?

After a decade of this sort of thing, how many people (who were sane to start with) do you think still have all their marbles?

[akinrog]

I suppose I can't really talk, as I've never been in the position where I have been imprisoned for any length of time (no more than 3 days), but surely one would be able to remain sane inside.

The long term imprisonment not necessarily make you insane, but the system i.e. prison environment shall fundamentally change your behavior patterns. Since you state you have not been imprisoned more than three days, that means you have actually been in jail, not prison. Environments of both are very very different.

You shall have some choices, i.e.

1. You shall become a brutal beast inside the prison, who is always getting in trouble, getting solidarity confinement, being threashed by the wardens, and if there are superior beasts (or most likely gangs of inferior beast), then most probably overpowered by them having a very bad destiny (i.e. in the best case scenario being raped and racketeered (if you have money) or in the worst case scenario being stabbed). (Little chance to survive or see the sun outside the prison)

2. You shall become an invisible man, who is being pushed around by everybody, being treated very ill not only by the inmates (since inmates want you to keep silent), but also by the wardens (since wardens want you sing like a bird). (Too much chance to survive and see the sun outside the prison, but you shall become someone else totally ruined psychologically and sosiologically when you are released.)

3. You shall become a cunning man, who is capable of making in-prison connections, while not vesting or entrusting your destiny on any body else's hands, creating alliances, in which case, you have a chance to survive, see the light outside again. However, this option has a serious factor of failure. If you, by chance, put your bet on the wrong card, then you may have to end in option 1 or 2) :eek: .

So friends, I recommend everybody, to keep out of prison and lead a life as decent and lawful as possible (at least don't get caged :D ). Regards

[sungod]

I have no idea how bad prison could be, but I think the prisons in Aus are not as brutal as the ones in the US so hence my opinion.

Compared with the US Australian prisons are lightweight and easygoing places. I cannot imagine what a few years in a US prison would to a mans mind but it sure wouldn't be good.

Having recently watched a BBC documentary (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8451.htm) on US prison life I can assure you that if I lived in the US I would be very well behaved and possibly the lead singer in the Mormon Tabernacle. Anybody, who has come out of the grinding end of the US system and has survived with their faculties relatively intact has my respect because they are obviously made of pretty strong stuff.

As long as you look big enough to take care of yourself, and don't piss anyone off you should be alright, yeah?

It's very easy to piss people off in prison as sometimes that is what some people are made of, just big piles of pissed off. I beat a guy at draughts once and that came very close to being my last day on Earth.

Being big enough to take care of yourself is a bit of a furphy because it really doesn't matter how big, tough, experienced you are there is always someone around the corner who can take you out without breaking a sweat (sometimes your sheer size is why they want to have a go in the first place). The toughest guy I know stands about 5 foot tall and looks like he couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag. I have seen a few tough guy wannabes pick him because he looks like an easy target much to their detriment.

BTW: The reason I am posting is that I have some experience in this topic. I don't wan't anyone to get the idea that I am trying to bignote myself in this thread because the simple truth of the matter is that every time I have been busted for something it has been through my own stupididity and incompetence (quite often due to inebriation).

[JakeGallows]

Having worked in a prison hospital I can say that they are very interesting places indeed. I find myself confronted by two opposing forces: hating the officers (they hate being called guards BTW) for being officers of the law and hating the prisoners for committing whatever crime it was that they committed.

However since they are in the hospital and you generally don't know what crime it was they may or may not have committed compounded by the fact that they are supposedly sick, you second guess your natural concern (at your own peril I might add). As you learn more though you realize how effective the prisoners are able to manipulate the system to their own gain. Prisoners are constantly getting surgery or medicine/treatment that they wouldn't be given on the outside for lack of money. They get drugs (frequently pain meds or anything one can "get high" from) by [sometimes] faking illnesses, exacerbating present illness, or creating new infirmities.

People that work there frequently mention that the prisoners have more rights than you or I, the right to healthcare, the right to food, and the right to shelter... Though they give up certain freedoms to achieve them.

As a side note stepping back to the issue of breaking out: Hospitals can be an ideal place to do it. As usual each hospital is different and where and when prisoners are treated varies from state to state, etc.

Having had an insider's look (the inside of a prison hospital attached to a teaching hospital, a hospital within a jail, and two separate hospitals that had contracts with state/federal prisons), the weaknesses are in transport (when relevant) either from or to hospital/prison, to/from testing and to some degree within the patient rooms. You have one officer transporting someone, and often leaving them in physician or nurse custody (I use the term loosely) because of hospital restrictions or officer preferences.

In order to exploit them there are several methods that could be employed. One could become an officer and assist an escape (likely without being found out if one was careful). One could become a physician/nurse and supply the inmate with what he or she needed to escape. One could access the computers (given time and some effort and depending on the individual hospital situation) and since many places are turning to electronic medical records and orders, optimize a time and place for escape.

As is the case with all attacks one must use their strength against their opponent's weakness, and I think hospitals assist in providing both of those.

[sungod]

I have enjoyed this discussion as I have enjoyed my other discussions here but I doubt I will be a member much longer. I will be banned for a different thread because I won't put up with some stupid cell block bitch with forum megalomania taking an irrational dislike to me just because I have tried to follow the rules and he is incapable of rubbing two brain cells together and seeing that.

[nbk2000]

...I doubt I will be a member much longer.


A self-fullfilled prophecy, for sure. :p

Someone who posts 11 times in two years is getting all emo because the person who wrote the Rules in the first place, makes a comment about a n00b, and then says an admin is 'incapable of rubbing two brain cells together and seeing that.'

A note to all n00bies:

No matter how long ago you signed-up, you don't get respect until you've contributed something here. Whether that be unique (and relevant) files, or stimulating discussion, you're a non-entity until you've done so.

Same as in prison.

You're fresh meat to be preyed upon by the predators until you show your true worth by going out on the yard and either standing up for yourself, or getting down on your knees.

Hiding in your cell for two years only delays the inevitable test.

Even some stupid cellblock bitch knows that much. More than you did. :p

[Alexires]

Akinrog: google Define:imprisonment.

The reason I didn't say jail or prison is because it was neither of those.

JakeGallows: That had occured to me as the most likely way to escape. Hospital security is pretty lax as far as I know, and if you are patient and know your stuff, probably a fairly good bet.

As with the main subject on the forum (explosives and weapons), you will probably only get one chance to fuck up. If you don't make it out the first time, it is highly unlikely you will be given the chance to try again.

NBK: Just looking at photos of the Supermax (now known as the WI Secure Program Facility). It looks tough. It says here about lasers, K9 patrols and pressure pads. From the looks of it, the facility is pretty isolated (a small town near by). Tigerwire and electric fences guard the perimeter, with some small concrete walls (maybe foot in height, or half a meter or whatever). Here is the Supermax Manual (http://www.prisoncentral.org/Prisoncentral/Supermax/Acrobat/ColoradoSupermaxManual.pdf).

There probably would be only a few options to remove someone from the Supermax Facility. These two plans target the human component as opposed to trying to get through the technojungle.

As I understand it, if a prisoner is good, they may progress to level 5, allowing access to the daytime hall. My assumption is that this hall is outside.

Option 1 would be a quick infiltration and snatch during the daytime hall visit. Alot of damage would need to occur to the facility to decrease the effectiveness of persuit. An EMP or a way to disable communications inside the supermax would be a must, along with poweroutages at the 2 closest towns. Two ten man teams would probably be best. One at the facility itself and the other split between the two towns. After the power went down in the towns, the two 5 man teams would rejoin with the attacking 10 man team. Maybe a few of NBK's telesnipers would be useful here to persuade the "officers" to stay inside.

A quick exfiltration to a remote safehouse where the escapee would be left alone with enough food and water to last a few months at least. Would be picked up again when the heat had died down.

Option 2 - Kill everything that moves. Take the power out in a few close towns, shut down the prison then stage a massive assult under the cover of darkness. Taking down communication is a MUST.
Ram the fence in two locations with something big like an 18 wheeler truck, and then roll it (see the JATO myth on mythbusters for a smart way to do this). This takes down the gates, and provides cover closer to the facility. Plenty of snipers in the forest around the facility to cover the assult teams. Take down a wall of the main building close to the cell, or the shaft down to the cells. If there are no stairs down, or the elevators are stuffed, cut the cables and slide down. Attach a winch to pull back up and get your man out. Exfiltrate as fast as possible. If you were successful in disabling communication you should be able to get away clean. If not, follow the exfiltration of option 1. Alot of people for this one, at least 30 (Two 10 man teams and 10 snipers). We're talking ALOT of damage and mayhem. The principal being that there aren't enough people left alive to persue.

I'm just testing the idea out here. Tell me what you think. If its crap, say so, but give different ideas if possible.


This is operating on the principal that to be entombed in Supermax, you are someone with alot of money that probably wasn't legally gained and can afford a 30 man team + equiptment. Hah.

[JakeGallows]

Alexires - I like where your head is at. Given resources and time I think that your snatch and grab idea is probably the best. That said I look for possibilities that could be achieved with less resources and capital, since 20-30 men to break one out is probably beyond basic civilian capabilities and opens yourself up to all new problems.

As usual each scenario is different and tactics must be customized, however in the one I envision (based on my experiences) another weak point is the transport vehicle. We talked about this before (attacking en route) but consider also where the vehicle is stored while not in use. I observed an unguarded bus parked a reasonable distance from any supervision, surely one can see the inherent weaknesses in that logic.

One could place remotely detonated charges at strategic locations, say around radio equipment or driver/officer locations. One could disable radio use via remote disconnect (as opposed to detonation) after leaving the pickup point (en route). Consider further the use of Nitrous (great because it is not colored, flammable or detectable, via smell anyway) or other volatile agents that pumped into the cab could dispatch (lethally or nonlethally) any opposition to the operation.

[nbk2000]

How about something more low-key than a paramilitary assault?

Like blackmailing a few key guards to allow your guy access to somewhere where he'll 'accidently' be released? Or at least somewhere more accessible.

[FUTI]

I'm in a bad mood today...considering the starting idea behind this thread...why should we bother at all and use J.Stalin reasoning "There are no Russian prisoners of war...only traitors" and forget the guy who isn't smart enough to stay out of cane. Just a though. mrghmph arghhh

[nbk2000]

There's that line of thought too. :)

[Alexires]

JakeGallows - A good point. Transport is most probably one of the weaker points in a prison system. A kill switch on the engine and a gas tank (not the thing that contains fuel for you americans) full of some kind of incapacitating gas. Start pumping the gas, and then kill the engine after a suitable period of time (so that the bus doesn't crash and kill everyone).

NBK - Corrupting the officers is an idea, but I don't think that your usual disgruntled prison guards are going to be stationed there. If they even took the bribe, the amount required to bribe enough officers would be rather prohibitive (but then again, probably not as prohibitive as a paramilitary strike). Maybe a compromise could be reached where inside information made the strike easier, or the prisoner was 'allowed' to be captured in exchange for alot of money.

FUTI - One could do that, but this thread was started with the scenario that someone indisposable (whether it be the leader of a resistance group, a religious guru, your boss in a shady profession, etc.) had been imprisoned. Hypothetically, if it were us, it would be very tactically unsound to leave someone with the knowledge of Mega or NBK in a stinkhole of a prison just because it would be too hard to get them out, or they shouldn't be there in the first place.

[Chris The Great]

NBK - Corrupting the officers is an idea, but I don't think that your usual disgruntled prison guards are going to be stationed there. If they even took the bribe, the amount required to bribe enough officers would be rather prohibitive (but then again, probably not as prohibitive as a paramilitary strike). Maybe a compromise could be reached where inside information made the strike easier, or the prisoner was 'allowed' to be captured in exchange for alot of money.

Give them "the plug". Or a letter starting with "Dear sir, we have your wife strapped to a bomb...". Or both, kidnap his wife when you plug him.

They'll do what you want. Just make sure you give his wife back, so it makes the papers and such and when you do it again the guys know that you'll let them live when you're done, so there is increased motivation to just do what you say and not cause problems.

[Jacks Complete]

I think we have a winner! Chris, that's the best idea so far.

The only snag with that I can see, is that if they go out of radio contact 100ft underground, or through a metal detector, things will go wrong.

A way to slave several telesnipers together into a mesh would be a great way to stop support "troops" from out of town coming in. Align several on the roads, and several covering the entire prison, then anything incoming or outgoing gets a bullet in the head, with a swift click from the mouse. They would have nowhere to hide, as long as your placement was good. You could even have it set so that two or more guns would fire at the same time to the same target, from different angles, meaning that hiding behind the car would be a big mistake.

Two 10+ teams isnt ever going to happen unless you are a Columbian druglord or relgious leader. No way, no how.

[akinrog]

Give them "the plug". Or a letter starting with "Dear sir, we have your wife strapped to a bomb...". Or both, kidnap his wife when you plug him.

They'll do what you want. Just make sure you give his wife back, so it makes the papers and such and when you do it again the guys know that you'll let them live when you're done, so there is increased motivation to just do what you say and not cause problems.


But what if the guard is already sick of his wife and very eager to get rid of her? :D :D

[Chris The Great]

The intestines are long and could fit a quite large antenna. :P Maybe not...
But you are right, radio contact could possibly be lost. Perhaps a timer that you tell him about. For example, find out how long it would take to get the prisoner out. Should he exceed that by, say, half an hour, *bang*. There is no way they'd be able to get the thing out in the time frame you'd be giving him. And, you still do have his wife (and children, and dog, and a list and log of all the child porn sites he *coincedentately* visited the night you kidnapped him, etc)

The prison itself has a huge amount of metal and concrete and might block out the radio signal anyway. So that would need to be taken into account. Seeing if you can beam one through the prison beforehand, for example, might give an idea of how much the signal is weakened.

Mining the roads with remote detonated mines (or remote activated ones to avoid civilian casualties but not have to try to guess when the vechile is right above the mine) would be cheaper than a telesniper and more effective at stopping a armoured convoy of reinforcements. Of course, a few telesnipers to fire on them after the mines go off would keep them there even longer as they fire back at enemies that aren't there, and won't dare come out from behind their barracades.
Of course, if there where some telesnipers behind them to start shooting once they are all on the sides of the vechiles facing them....

The telesnipers would be better at picking off sharpshooters in the towers rather than those coming to reinforce them. The reinforcements can run/drive into bombs, guys sitting in a tower needs the bombs brought to them, and that makes it difficult.


However, one thing we don't have an answer to is helicopters. They're going to cause a lot more trouble than anyone following on foot.


Here is the ideal scenario:
Bob is plugged, and his family kidnapped. Bob brings the prisoner out, and transfers him to Bill, the bus driver who has also been plugged. Bill brings the prisoner to the arranged drop off point, and leaves. Shortly afterwards, the prisoner is picked up. The helicopters sitting on the helipads suddenly explode from bombs planted the night before.
Bob and Bill return home after their surgery to remove the plugs, and find their families safe and unharmed, while the prisoner returns to his fight against the evil communist oppressors.

Nobody is killed (hence, no huge huge uproar), no bombs are needed (but they will be planted as backup) and the prisoner escapes without pursuit, although everything is set up to stop that pursuit should it happen.

[Alexires]

Chris, your god damn right. Hell, thats a good plan. The only forseeable problem would be finding out which officers is in the right place at the right time to free the prisoner. Its all well and good to blackmail them, but if there is absolutely no way that they can do what you ask, the whole situation is FUBAR. The bus driver or transport is probably stationed at the nearest town, not at the facility itself.

Alas, my mind isn't devious enough, or perhaps deviant.

[Jacks Complete]

Ok, well, I know for a fact that most of the UK police helicopters are stationed at normal aerodromes (not military ones, just your regular type), generally just a little bit out of the way of casual traffic. There was a gang that tried to take out the force helicopter prior to a raid on a bank last year, but they failed to get both of them, so got caught.

I think that some form of anti-helicopter weapon or, at the very least, a telescope system to spot them, would be required. A full power rifle round such as 7.62 will tear a hole through most helicopters without trouble, both sides. The main issue is the range required, and next is the actual hitting of the target. Stopping them on the ground is a far better way to deal with it.

Of course, a UAV with a nice steel net attached would be great, if a little technical, as it would simply fly at the rotor system and tangle itself, causing the whole helo to drop from the sky. Anti-aircraft missiles would be best, but procurement would be somewhat tricky.

A nice trick would be to steal or turn the police helicopter, and have them fly in and snatch the prisoner for you... :-)

As for what do you have to do to end up in a supermax prison, or Gitmo, or the "supermax" UK police station in London, well it doesn't seem like much any more. Certainly the people in this (http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article625606.ece) this article are panicked.

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article717614.ece tells of the rendition saga, with 14 countries being accused of helping the US to break international law by either helping or simply turning a blind eye to the CIA snatching people.

[JakeGallows]

I think that akinrog is right... banking on guards loving their wives and wanting them to stay alive might be an hazardous play. However putting the guards in a compromised position is a great idea. I think I mentioned it before but someone becoming a guard and getting the inside scoop (and quitting or helping from the inside, either way) would be valuable.

Eliminating the helicopters (preferably by methods that aren't immediately obvious, since that could draw attention and backup support) is a nice move.

Though I would hazard a guess that everytime you up the ante your opponent will as well. You might destroy the helicopters and they might call in the national guard. That doesn't prevent anything, but it should be planned for. Particularly in light of the emergency preparations that law enforcement has been making in light of recent events such as Hurricane Katrina/New Orleans, Waco, 9/11 etc. You should bet on a more rapid reaction by well armed and trained forces with better organization than we have seen in the past.

[Chris The Great]

Of course, a UAV with a nice steel net attached would be great, if a little technical, as it would simply fly at the rotor system and tangle itself, causing the whole helo to drop from the sky. Anti-aircraft missiles would be best, but procurement would be somewhat tricky.

How about a rocket that bursts at a set distance to release the net, which then hits and brings down the heli. The net has small weights on the ends, and the spin of the rocket spreads it out rapidly after the bursting charge goes off. Such a weapon could offer accuracy as long as you got the rocket center around 25 feet from the heli, since if part of the net gets caught the rest will get pulled in.
This is getting a little off topic and a little technical however.

[Jacks Complete]

The UAV is re-useable, slower (and so easier to steer) and costs less, plus doesn't contain a warhead, so is completely legal. It could also have a camera in it, to loiter and give overhead info.

[Alexires]

Well, since we are already talking about prison, lets throw this one in as well.

Communication.

It would be essential in the prison break situation where the person on the inside needed to make their way to a pick up point (think the movie Tango and Cash just without them getting out).

What do we know about those funny little cubicles that prisoners go to to talk to visitors?

I don't know how to describe them, but you see them in movies all the time. I'm assuming that all those conversations are monitored, so the chances of getting a message in there (unless it was pre-arranged) would be minimal.

NBK, in the movies there is always some guy with connections to the outside that can get you stuff. Is that actually true, or is there any other way to get info out? In the old days they used to fill a tennis ball with drugs and throw it over the wall of the prison.

That is probably possible, but the problem is getting them ready for it.

Any ideas people?

[nbk2000]

Funny you should have mentioned this subject, as I just posted to my Blog an article on this very subject! :)

Covert communication between a prisoner and his outside help.

As for 'fixers' in prison (like Morgan Freeman's character in the movie Shawshank Redemption, yes, they exist. However...they're tied in with the guards, and they're also quite likely to snitch you off to keep their guard connection, so they're best avoided.

[Jacks Complete]

Throwing stuff into the yard has been done for a long time. Most prisons now have two fences quite far apart to stop this, or at least limit it a lot. The local prisons have either the big gap, or a wall that is so high you would have a heck of a time throwing anything over it. (Yes, you could get it over, but you have no idea what is the other side!)

Open prisons in the UK now have cellphone sweeps, because so many of them get smuggled in and used by prisioners.

[Nihilist]

Funny you should have mentioned this subject, as I just posted to my Blog an article on this very subject! :)


I've noticed this blog of yours mentioned in your signature and now here, is it private or am I just too stupid to find the URL?

[Jacks Complete]

It's not private, it's just not linked too from here, for obvious reasons.

[Alexires]

Yeah, I know what you are saying Jacks, the prisons over here (that I have seen) have 2 fences.

But then again, a message in a tennis ball (or something heavier) fired from an air powered PVC spud-gun would work. A little physics, a little testing and you would have a feasible way to send messages in.

Getting messages out is the problem. You could always smuggle some kind of 2-way radio in, but then again, it would probably need to be encrypted or at least scrambled so that the guards can't listen in.

Otherwise, have a code worked out that you can use when you visit/are visited and then reply via tennis ball gun.

Otherwise, a model rocket might do it. Launch it high, and let it drop down into the complex.

While that sounds a little improbable, without research no one would know if it will work or not.

Any ideas?

[Jacks Complete]

Google maps will tell you what is the other side of the wall, of course. Sorry I didn't mention it before. Simple things will tell you when prison movements are taking place. They are in the yard when the lights flash to stop entry to the yard by vehicles, for instance, and audio will tell you when people are playing sports, for example.

I'd use something like Morse rather than voice, too, as it cannot be easily linked to anyone. Not that I know Morse code...

[Ygarl]

Destroying the entire prison outer perimeter might be the best thing. Make it all fall down.


Traditionally (i.e. Historically) there are a few ways to take down walls over a "certain size".

1) Explosives - difficult, dangerous and to be honest - very difficult on an assult-type attack. Carefully placing a series of powerful HE shaped charges in key areas as a demolition team would do on a high-rise building.

The issue of course is that you need an intimate knowledge of the structural weaknesses of the wall and the placement and size of the charges. Not something most people would be able to get a hold of on an improvizational basis.

The only realistic way to ensure an entire 10+ foot thick wall is destroyed would be a simeltaneous assault with several vehicles full of explosives. Not an ideal thing for a non-suicidal group of attackers.

2) Sapping - Difficult, and time-consuming but definintely effective. Simply dig tunnels from a distance to the walls of the structures in question, then place much smaller charges to collapse all the walls at once.

Even more effectively, support the walls from underneath with your own bracing and blow the lot at the same time. Issues here are the large amount of man-power needed, and the need to get rid of a large amount of spoils at the other end of the tunnels.

However, this has proved very effective in WW 1 - though these tunnels were used to place large amounts of what is essentially ANFO under the German lines to disrupt enemy trenches. Wikipedia has a very interesting section on these mines used several times.

However, sapping in this way goes back to pre-explosive times, when the supports under the walls would have been toppled mechanically.

The only real dangers are detection and of course cave-ins.

However, tunnelling is a much safer option than trying to drive a fleet of trucks with 2 tons of ANFO up to the walls at the same time... and trying to get away without getting vapourised! It also requires more mine-tunnelling knowledge, time and brute force.

Other options are not feasible in the modern era - particularly with the need to take all the walls down at the same time with complete surety. There's no real completely safe way to take down thousands of tons of wall reliably all at once - at least, not without enough firepower to kill most of the inmates at the same time - including most of your rescuees.

Taking down one wall as a distraction by sapping is certainly much more rapid and attainable. You would obviously need only sap a short section of wall - say 30 yards or so - to make a very noticable collapse indeed!

++++++++++++

Please use paragraph breaks in the future to make your posts more readable. NBK