Kurt Saxons Method....

[Red Beret]

Has anyone personally tried Kurts method for making knockout drops? I am planning on trying this, I will be using denatured ethanol, so hopefully the additives wont cause any side reactions, they make up about one percent of the mix I think.

The reason I'm asking is that occasionally, Kurt dosent write the most accurate procedures. Do the drops work as well as he states? Information I have from the net is questionable. Thats why I'm asking someone with first hand experience. Is is worth the use of valuable H2S04? I have someone in mind to try this substance on (not myself):rolleyes: . Also, is the reccomended dosage (a couple of drops) correct?

Interestingly, there is a chemical supplier that sells chloral hydrate in crystaline form, they sell to the public. They do ask questions but never get too inquisitive. Its listed as being a toxic substance. If anyone is interested in this supplier PM me. Only long time members please. Too many suppliers have tightened up because too many people knew of them.

Thanks for any help anyone can offer.

[Alexires]

Haven't read about Kurts method but... (goes and fetches organic chem book)

From "Organic Chemistry for Medical, Intermediate Science and Pharmaceutical Students" by A. Killen Macbeth (1946), pg. 103 we get

Chloral. Trichloroaldehyde CCl3.CHO - This important substitution product of acetaldehyde cannot be prepared by the direct action of chlorine on the parent substance. It is manufactured on a large scale by the action of chlorine on alcohol (assuming Ethanol - Alexires), first at ordinary temperatures and later at its boiling point. Chloral alcoholate is the product, but by distillation with concentrated sulphuric acid chloral is produced. (Ill try and give the picture - Alexires)

. . OC2H5
. . ./
CCl3C-H --------------> CCl3.CHO + C2H5OH
. . .\ . . . . . . . . . . . . . .(Chloral) . . (Alcohol)
. . . OH
(Chloral Alcoholate)

The action leading to the production of chloral alcohloate is not yet clear. It is suggested that the alcohol is first oxidised to aldehyde, which is converted into acetal, and this in turn gives trichloroacetal, going then to chloro alcoholate.
Chloral is an oily liquid boiling at 97 C. On treatement with water, it forms a white, crystalline substance known as Chloral Hydrate, CCl3.CH(OH)2. This and the parent substance are both converted into chloroform on boiling with lime of caustic alkali.


Hope that helps a bit. Useful little book this is. So far I've got info for chloroform, carbon tetrachloride and mustard gas. A few other things too, but cant remember.

This was straight from the book, I haven't tried it. So be careful.

(edit - the picture of the chloral alcoholate is ment to have the OC2H5 and the OH attached to the last carbon. Stupid formatting. Stupid me not knowing how to. Excuse all underscores)

[akinrog]

Chloral. Trichloroaldehyde CCl3.CHO - This important substitution product of acetaldehyde cannot be prepared by the direct action of chlorine on the parent substance.

I doubt this statement. From my high school organic chemistry knowledge, I remember that in order to make chloroform first one reacts ethyl alcohol with chlorine (which produces Chloral) and when you treat this with alkali (NaOH or KOH) it gives chloroform.

I believe the author of the book is mistaken or what!... Regards

[Alexires]

Akinrog - I don't profess that this book is in any way correct. I stated in my post I haven't tried it. I remember it saying earlier that Chloral was the exception to the rule in regards to direct chlorination.

This book was found in the University library, so I figured it couldnt be too wrong. Then again, it was written by the Professor of Chem (or something like that) for the Adelaide University, so it might not be that right *wink*.

[akinrog]

This important substitution product of acetaldehyde cannot be prepared by the direct action of chlorine on the parent substance.


Now I understand it better: The keyword here is parent substance. When I saw it, I thought parent substance is ethyl alcohol. But on the second thought, I understand it's acetaldehyde, which makes that statement true. Sorry for the mess up. :( Regards.

[Alexires]

That's fine. I'd be happy to be pointed wrong on any of my posts, as long as there is evidence that I am actually wrong. Those old books seem to be rather obscure at times, for instance insisting on calling Ethanol Alcohol all the time. It can be confusing.

Unfortunately, they are the only manuals that have the good stuff, the new University manuals don't even hint at these synthesis.

[nbk2000]

If you asked someone to pick you up some alcohol from the store, would you be pissed at 'em if they picked up everclear? 'Alcohol', by default, means ethyl alcohol, unless otherwise stated.

Want confusion? Try the REALLY old journals, like from the time when 'ether' was the stuff the universe was made of. :p

[Alexires]

Ahhh, the good old days.

I remember reading about ether. They might not have actually been to far off the truth (physicists, that is).

*laugh* Maybe I'm just too conditioned. Whenever I think of "alcohol" I think of a hydrocarbon chain with an OH attached, not ethanol, hence why it took a minute to work out they were talking about ethanol, not the broad class of alcohols.

[Red Beret]

Thanks guys, the input has been helpful.

I have the oportunity to buy crystaline chloral hydrate, what is everyone opinion on how it works?

Is it a simple as; a few drops in a drink and they are out for the night, regardless of previous alcohol consumption?

I could always make chlorobutanol, but unless I want to buy chloroform, I will have to make it, and in turn but a fractional distilation setup.
Easier to buy the chloral hydrate, not as much fun as making it though.;)

[nbk2000]

Alchohol is an enhancement to the sedative effects of chloral hydrate.

Also, chlorbutanol is supposed to have a nasty taste, so why use it?

[Red Beret]

The only reason I'm considering using it is that its rather easy for me to get hold of. Chlorobutanol manufacture seems fairly straight forward, but I would have to buy the chloroform. Unless of course I made it, which requires fractional distilation. So I guess I am just weighing up the pros and cons.
Apparently the taste is well hidden by orange juice etc. I'm just getting into this area of chemistry (sedatives I mean), and I'm just a bit impatient, can't wait to test it;) . I'll read up as much as I can before I make my choice.

[nbk2000]

I'm just a bit impatient, can't wait to test it. ;)



Just be sure to wear a condom! ;) :p

[Alexires]

*chuckle* practical advice once again NBK, but I have a feeling that if he falls asleep while sleeping with his girl, not wearing a condom will be the least of his problems.

Be eager, but don't be TOO eager. Play it safe, and contemplate the risks of such experimentation. Buy a hamster or something first, so you can work out the average dosages, and to see if you screwed up and its actually poisonous.

[nbk2000]

I don't think he'd be the one getting knocked out, nor would it be 'his' girl. ;)

Hence, the condom. :D

Thank God for chemistry! Otherwise, what would fella's do to get a date after the rohypnol supply dries up?

[FUTI]

I thought that only GBL or 1,4-butandiol has that potential abuse properties...so this one is new for me.

Beware for whatever use you try to use it, that in some people those compounds cause death as dosage and metabolic clearance isn't same in every man/woman. NBK give you a hint...search the Google and find more to learn.

You can make chloroform using almost the same way as for chloral hydrate.

Chloral hydrate were once in the old time known among the barmens as "Mickey Finns" AFAIR. They use it for putting nasty customers in the dreamland through mixing with alcohol. That can be used also, but as robbery tool...and that is something I don't approve. I heard of some cases where people were knocked down by drinking coffee with "nice polite people that kindly bring them the drink from the counter" but in modern times anyone can buy some kind of sedative for that purpose, so although I'm against spreading the recepies for potential dangerous substance - I don't think this thread will make a change. People with criminal intention will probably buy something OTC then make it themself.

[nbk2000]

I'm against spreading the recepies for potential dangerous substance


Then you've come to the wrong place! :)

Chloral hydrate feel out of common use as more potent sedatives, like barbituates, came into being. But, there's always something to be said for a classic. ;)

[bipolar]

I never realized how easy it was to make GHB. All you need is GBL and sodium hydroxide(I think). They used to sell GHB kits in the US with the two ingredients in two premeasured containers.

You just mix together and bam you have GHB. You just have to use litmus tests to make sure all the acid got used up in the reaction or something.

Now GBL is heavily regulated in the US. You can still easily order pharmaceutical grade GBL over the internet from europe as an Alloy-Cleaner(or other things). They charge a high price because they know what they are selling it for. Apparently people do it all the time. The directions are on the internet.

A lot of people take GBL recreationally. They say people crave sex on it more. It causes the same effect in lower doses as alchohol. It is dangerous to use enough to knock someone out.

I hope you all aren't serious about the above. If you are, I recomend the Double Your Dating ebooks by David Deangelo instead. TMP has them on his FTP, or just get them from a torrent site.

[FUTI]

Talking about barbiturate...I heard a story describing how they got their name. Chemist that made them name it after his mistress...what to say...she made him relax and calm...not like his wife;). I couldn't resist to share this info even if it turns to be hoax.:D

[inthekitchen]

So did the knockout drops work using the denatured ethanol? In some states the concentrations of alcohol cannot exceed 75 percent. If one wanted to make chloral hydrate they'd have to buy 95% denatured ethanol or distill the 75% stuff. Distilling is a pain in the ass so it'd be great if you could use denatured/regular alcohol interchangeably. I'm just curious if that's possible with the production of chloral hydrate.

[Gammaray1981]

"Must not exceed"? Do you mean "be below?" It appears that a higher concentration of ethanol is desirable, not a lower.

[zeppelin69]

"Must not exceed"? Do you mean "be below?" It appears that a higher concentration of ethanol is desirable, not a lower.

I'm pretty sure that Inthekitchen is saying that some states require "denatured" alcohol to not be over 75% ethanol

[Enkidu]

@kitchen: I wouldn't use denatured alcohol. Denatured alcohol is a mix of ethanol and methanol. The methanol constituent is at least 5% of the mix and sometimes a lot more.

@Gammaray (and NBK): From Synthetic Organic Chemistry by Wagnor and Zook,

Direct halogenation of aldehydes is more complicated. Substitution on the aldehyde carbon as well as the a-carbon may take place. Thus, acetaldehyde in aqueous solution yields chloral, whereas, in the absence of water, acetyl chloride is formed.

As a side note, chlorine dissolved in water is in equilibrium with hydrochloric acid and hypochlorous acid, or H2O + Cl2 <--> HCl + HOCl. I have a gut feeling that those acids (especially HOCl) are important in the mechanism for chloral.

The chlorination/oxidation of ethanol produces no water. Contrary to NBK's post in kitchen's recent DDT thread, you should not use absolute ethanol.

Of course, the reaction of chloral and water produces chloral hydrate. Therefore, I think that you need enough water in your reaction for use first in the formation mechanism of chloral and then to continue the reaction to chloral hydrate. In other words, if you have very little water in your reaction, I think that you might use it up early on and then spend the rest of your time forming acetyl chloride (which is highly useful, but DO NOT drink it.)

Once you get chloral hydrate, you can convert it back to chloral by dissolving it in conc. sulfuric acid and distilling off the chloral.

I haven't spent much time looking into this; feel free to disagree, because it's very possible that I could have overlooked something. Of course, don't take my word as gospel, especially if you're going to be ingesting anything.