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Jacks Complete
April 29th, 2006, 08:55 AM
I originally posted this elsewhere:
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We have these new cake fireworks that fire multiple rounds per lighting. They are pretty common now. Imagine one of these aimed down a street. Fairly useful for stopping the approaching swarm, even the most foolhardy or brave would be put off, at least the first time.

Now, imagine taking one of these devices, and de-re-constructing it. Remove the sealed lid, to reveal one of an array of launchers. Remove the ball and store for later - it's a hard coated (probably laquered) BP star. Replace it with a small projectile made of an air rifle pellet (or something larger if available and there is room) and replace the sealed top, carefully replacing the glue so it looks like an innocent firework. Repeat semi-randomly until you are really bored. Now, you have a machine gun. Sure, it won't stop armour, but against a massed rank of attackers you would certainly have a heck of an impact. Even against a skilled enemy, they would keep under cover for the duration, and the noise and flash-bangs that were left would add a bit of drama to the proceedings, as well as cover any other weapons fire.

Taken to the logical conclusion, however, we can get a whole lot better.

Buy some good drill bits of a size to suit whatever projectiles you have handy. Get a large block of steel, and drill vertical holes in the block, in an array. Put them far enough apart to ensure they aren't likely to breech into one another, and far enough from the edge to stop it bursting out. Now carefully drill a small hole from the side, aiming for the bottom edges of the first line of "barrels". You should be able to get a few of the barrels to have linked touchholes. Switch to a longer drill bit of the same diameter. I'm sure you can see where this is going. Once all the barrels are linked, you can start adding the propellant of your choice. I suggest small charges of fast burning powder. Ensure the touchholes are filled first.

Now add a projectile to each barrel. You could use shot if you wanted, with a wad under it, but this is a multi-barreled weapon that will fire all barrels in a rank at the same time. It *is* a shotgun. It just fires 10 by 10 (for example) .38 lead balls at the same time. Unlike a shotgun, or a Claymore, however, it will have a lot less divergence (though this will depend on how you drilled the holes - hand drilling will be a lot more wobbly than a pillar drill, and a milling machine is likely to be perhaps too accurate!) Fletchettes might be a good idea...

Test fire a pattern at two or three layers of paper at various ranges to get an idea of what your new toy will do. (Anchor it down well, have a good backstop, wear protection, etc.) Then think about where you can deploy it, and at what range. The real joy of this is that at 100m, where a grenade or pretty much anything else will be totally un-noticed, this thing will still frag. In fact, it should be about the same as a short smoothbore firearm round at that range, if you could get 100 people to fire at the same target at the same time.

An improvement might be to leave one chamber empty, and drilled right through, for use as an aiming device. Look through it, or pop a laser pointer or some cheap optics in there. And make sure to fire remotely.

A further improvement would be to stack the charges and have each barrel chain fire - an extra round per barrel every fraction of a second. Just like a roman candle. So you might be able to stack 4 rounds in your stack of barrels, though accurately drilling the touch holes might be difficult. Add a few bits of quick match to connect the touchholes, and suddenly there are 4 volleys of 100 rounds coming down the range in well under a second - no time to take cover, and even the best body armour isn't likely to save you from that density of lead, as it doesn't cover everywhere. Even an armoured bank car would have to stop, as the "bullet-proof" window would be mostly white and cracked, if not totally chewed through.

I figure that with 2 grains of Bullseye per ball the effective range should be 200 yards. YMMV.
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Using metal tubes might work well, actually. Certainly be a simple thing to wire the fuses into the small holes you made for the touchholes, though the welding might be tricky to avoid trashing the strength. Sorting some steel plugs that would slide in would be an easy answer to that, though, as you then weld round the bottom edge, and the heat only affects there.

If you go for the shotgun in some chambers/barrels, it would probably be a bonus for when targets get closer, as you will get more spread. The idea behind this is to let you have your cake and eat it. Remember that using something as big as an oxygen cylinder for a single shotshotgun is going to be quite noticable, but then it is dead. With this cake launcher, you can selectively fire all or just one. Using electric ignition would allow you to fire ranks of whatever you wanted, at whatever rate you wanted. And the barrels could be different sizes, too, of course. A big giant fragging shotgun cylinder could be surrounded by perhaps 20 smaller barrels, 6 directly attached, and then 2 attached to each of those in a smaller size again.

Mixed charges could include a smoke generator or two, chemical weaponry, noise makers/flash bangs, sudden flame bursts, shot, flechetes, even small grenades. One that might be fun would be a series of wads with caltrops loaded on top. Lethal, yes, but onto a hard surface like tarmac they would destroy tyres and feet.

You might even make some barrels point off more than slightly, in a known direction, such that a few shots can go towards another alley, or whatever.

The Cake Launcher - your flexible yet remote friend.

Third_Rail
May 4th, 2006, 06:52 PM
And if you live here in the USA and make it muzzleloading like described, it's perfectly legal by the 1934NFA, too.

Volly guns sure do make an interesting weapon.

Hedgie
May 5th, 2006, 03:13 PM
An alternate barrel might use a CO2 capsule with the nozzle end chopped off, and a fuse/igniter hole drilled in the end (which I've seen done elsewhere). These could be stuck together to make a multi-shot.

By adding electronic firing, using a camera flash circuit or model rocket igniters, the firing could be computer controlled, making a mini 'Metal Storm' style weapon.

S510
May 6th, 2006, 04:53 PM
So, how long do you think you could store these? I mean, don't they lose effectiveness after a certain time period?

Hedgie
May 7th, 2006, 04:46 AM
Most fireworks have a use by date, but I've never noticed any deterioration in there effect, all depends on how they are stored.

Black powder will last for years if stored correctly, keep it in an airtight container in a cool dry place and it’ll be fine.

TheAdversary911
May 18th, 2006, 03:33 AM
I have NEVER seen a use by date on any firework. Cake fireworks are pretty common now? "New"? Repeating fireworks have been around for hundreds if not thousands of years.

This article comes across as vague to me. Replace it with an air rifle pellet? What? The ID of the tubes could be up to 2". I have never seen an air rifle pellet that will seal a hole that big.

And besides, it's just cardboard, you are never going to be able to launch something that powerful/heavy.

I guess what I'm saying is why not just by a bunch of muzzleloaders, saw them off, rig them together, and fire them in succesion either by hand or mechanism?

Jacks Complete
May 18th, 2006, 03:09 PM
TheAdversary911, I'm not sure how it could be vague at all. You replace the projectile that normally flies out at speed and explodes with something else - either one projectile or many.
Beyond that, you simply re-make the barrels from something tougher than cardboard and get on with it.

If you wish to buy $5000 worth of muzzle loaders (should you be somewhere that would even be feasible) and then destroy them, feel free. Far easier, cheaper and less regulated is a drill bit and a block of steel.

If you visit the UK at the right time of year (a time when fireworks sales are not illegal) you will find that the vast majority of fireworks now sold are multi-shot cake types. Whilst here, you can try buying even one BP firearm. I'm not saying you'll be arrested for asking, but you might go on a special list.

Third_Rail
May 18th, 2006, 05:41 PM
I suppose that in the UK, that's not feasible. Here in the USA, buying a 40" .50 caliber rifled muzzleloader barrel for $200, sawing it into 20 2" lengths and plugging one end of the barrel by threading it for a 4140 steel plug is actually feasible. Would be much more of a fearsome weapon, too.

nbk2000
May 18th, 2006, 10:40 PM
A 1" barrel wouldn't be worth a shit.

You'd be far better off buying DOM steel tubing at a $1/foot, and using that as your barrel.

TheAdversary911
May 19th, 2006, 10:59 AM
I see how the cake launcher could possibly be an attractive item seeing as how you live in the U.K. but here I could buy plenty of muzzleloaders for around $150 on gunbroker and have them shipped straight to me, they are not regulated here in the U.S. whatsoever.

Third_Rail
May 19th, 2006, 01:04 PM
I think you underestimate a 1-2" barrel, but you are correct, DOM tubing would be much cheaper.

S510
May 19th, 2006, 01:14 PM
There are singular tubes which can fire up to about 8 shots (I think that's their name as well "8 Shots") You could use it as a weapon as it is, or if you could find a non metallic projectile you could sneak it through a metal detector. Easy to hide as well, you could hide a few of them on your person.:)

TheAdversary911
May 20th, 2006, 12:52 AM
I believe you are referring to a firework known as a roman candle, it would be impossible to replace the projectiles without disassembling the entire thing, again, I simply fail to see the practicality of said devices. (cake launchers or otherwise)

nbk2000
May 20th, 2006, 04:03 AM
Well, I can attest to the usefulness of Roman Candles as a barrier.

Since I was living somewhere you could buy REAL fireworks, I bought a bunch of cheap roman candles, the kind that fire balls the explode with a loud report and flash, and chain-fused a dozen of them together to fire all at the same time.

Pointed it down a road where I was waiting (downrange) to see what possible pursuing piggies would be facing if I used it as a barrier...not one of my better ideas (to test it on myself!)...having mini-flashbangs going off around me fast as a machinegun was NOT fun.

Imagine ten M-80's a second exploding around you, while being shot at you. ;)

Anyways...it'd definately be a detterent to possible persuers. :)

sparkchaser
November 9th, 2006, 09:49 AM
This idea sounds quite a bit like the old "deck" or "case" guns used aboard ships in pirate days. Quite handy against a boarding party even back then!

billybobjoe
November 14th, 2006, 12:30 AM
How bout a stacked Arial salute. Relatively inexpensive and simple to construct, salute, lift charge, delay charge, repeat. If you needed a higher R.O.F. you could completely disregard the delay charge and have the thing fire off nearly simultaneously. The one major downside I can see in the design would be the inherent metal (Al powder) in the salute.