LICENCE FREE FIREARMS:europe loopholes

[noz]

I have just started looking into the availability of "NON TICKET" firearms in Europe, am continuing my rearch but would appreciate any feedback on subject.
So far have discovered can get all components to make any ammo upto 50bmg in UK, however that will change in 4 to 6 months as presses,dies,components are becoming licenced in Uk in new legislation. Many countries in Europe will allow single shot muzzle loader(black powder) pistols and rifles, now that brings up possibility of some very good guns like TC Omega Z5 which is available off ticket in Germany. HOWEVER my main interest is in percussion revolvers, I know you can buy them over counter in Europe but where??, certainly illegal to buy without licence in Germany BUT what about Belgium/Switzerland/Italy/france/Czek republic etc etc(language problem finding out facts).

Is legal in Germany to buy primers,almost any bullet(head),cases etc but not powder!, it's lmit if you have a firearms cert is 2KG not sure how often a year yet.

Can buy suppressors (silencers) in France without licence and in Uk upto 22 cal rimfire without licence.

Lasers are illegal in Germany BUT stun guns and tear gas arn't, however those 2 are illegal in Uk but lasers arn't!!!.

Will update when get more facts, of course this is for research purposes only!.

[tomu]

Percussion revolvers are sold in France without the need of a licence, as any gun which was build before 1871 or replicas of such weapons, with the exception of the Colt Peacemaker and the german Reichsrevolver.

Also rimfire rifles with a maximum calibre of 6 mm and with an overall lenght of at least 80 cm and a barrel lenght of at least 45 cm, which don't look like a full auto weapon, can be bought without a licence also special self defense guns which fire rubber bullets. But if the muzzle energy is higher then 10 Joules the gun must be registrated with the authorities (the gun dealer needs a proof of ID of the buyer and does the registration automatically).

In Germany a special low explosives licence is required to buy nc-powder or black powder and not a firearms permit. Primers, cases and bullets as well as reloading tools are available without any permit.

In Austria NC-powder and black powder is still available without a licence, so are barrel blanks.


Belgium used to have a very liberal gun law and belgian gun shows were always good sources to buy guns without to much hassle, but I've not been there for some years and the situation there might have changed to the worse (as everywhere).

[noz]

Interesting, my experience of Belgium from 13 years ago was that i could buy a 30/30 or 44magnum winchester lever action or a shotgun, also ammo was sold with no i.d. i also remember hearing Belgium was one of best places in world for arms trader and there was a market in central Brussels that had piles of guns.

I never went as was always on a motorbike and had already had a warrant out on me so was cautious. I also think you used to be able to buy shotguns and 22lr s in france and 2 years ago when went could have bought a fully suppressed CZ 22lr but they take copy of passport.

Am told by a ex-German policeman they pass on to your country and you get knock on door a month later, which defeats the point of all the trouble getting it back.

as for old guns is same in Uk but must be obsolite calibre, which is a joke as can get dies to convert other brass to old shape in from 1 to maybe 3 or 4 stages, even better is 44russian can be made with ut down 44mag or 44spl !. Also there is a great book for sale online by great guy P.A.LUTY , I hav'nt got it as am tight swine and like modern calibres, it shows how to make from SCRATCH various calibres at home from junk and brass/plastic pipe.

Would to know for 100% about black powder percussion revolvers in France or other places as these can be modified to fire centre fire, or what the score is in Belgium these days. Did you know switzerland is good place to get brand new handguns, the Italian mob get all there SIGS,Glocks and 92f's there, well at least they did couple of years ago, don't know how it works though.

Is a shame things are so paranoid, all the real bad guys have got piles of kit, I should have joined the hells angels! good pay and plenty of toys.

I'm in Deutzland, but travel at times and am writing a spy novel!, thanks for info, I will post anything I find out.

[karme]

Can't Get Shit In Hawaii , considerd The First Fed Run State In Union.

[xyz]

I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that the Yakuza used to smuggle a lot of their guns over from the US via Hawaii?

[noz]

Well this topic is not getting much response so will have to keep posting info in dribs and drabs to get it going.

Did you know lasers cannot be bought in Germany as are illegal, but can be bought with zero paperwork or any suspicion at all in UK, even the AMAZING green light laser which has a range of a mile, and why would someone want one of them I wonder?????

Anyone want to add any more differences in EU member state regulations?

++++++

You don't put a period after a question mark at the end of a sentence.

NBK

[TreverSlyFox]

If you have access to machine tools the way to go would be the Black Powder Cap & Ball revolver. There are many well made reproductions made and you do exactly what was done after the Civil War when the Metallic Cartridge became plentyful. You convert the BP C&B Revolver to cartridge. Here in the States there are "Conversion" kits for the more popular 1858 - 1861 Colt Navy, Remington Army and Thompson Center "Old Army" models.

The down side to the conversion kits is the cylinder must be removed to reload. With access to machine tools you could make a "new" cylinder, hammer/firing pin and machine a proper "loading gate" into the frame. Then you could have one of the guns Jessy James carried, a converted 1861 Remington Army model in S&W .44 Russian, or in .44 Special for modern ammo.

There is also a single shot BP C&B derringer that has a .22LR barrel conversion kit for it for sale here in the States. Just remember once the "conversion" is made you now have a true "Firearm" that might not be lawful where you are. YMMV

[BlackFalcoN]

Interesting, my experience of Belgium from 13 years ago was that i could buy a 30/30 or 44magnum winchester lever action or a shotgun, also ammo was sold with no i.d. i also remember hearing Belgium was one of best places in world for arms trader and there was a market in central Brussels that had piles of guns.


Unfortunately, those days are over.

As of June 9 2006, ALL firearms sold and owned in Belgium, require a federal license.

In the past, you could buy most sporting and hunting rifles without much trouble.
You were only required to show a valid Belgian ID-card to purchase them.
(Double barrelled shotguns, bolt-action heavy calibre deer rifles, lever action repeaters, etc.)
Gunlaws were pretty tolerant, especially in comparison to other neighbouring countries (Germany, Netherlands, UK, …)

All this changed a couple weeks ago, because of an 18-year old miscreant, who shot 3 people. ( a Turkish woman got shot in the lungs but survived, and an African woman and the 2 year old toddler she was looking after got killed )
( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4763655.stm )

In a panic-reaction (and elections coming up this Fall :rolleyes: ), the leftwinged government took a drastic decision that every gun owner has to have a license for every past and future gun purchased.

A license is only granted to those who meet the stringent criteria and is only granted per gun for maximum 5 years by the state-gouvernor. ( which takes months to be approved )
"Purchasing costs" per license are not yet officially determined, but are rumoured to cost around 200 euros (about 250$ :eek: )

The new gunlaws even grant federal law enforcement the right enter your residence without a search-warrant, so they can "inspect" your guncollection. ( Just the fact that you have a gun, gives them the right to enter -even at night- , you don't even have to be suspected of any criminal activities what-so-ever.)

Those with an existing gun collection, who don't comply within 1 year (= either get rid of the gun or try to get a license) and get their paperwork straight, are facing severe penalties. ( with up to 5 years imprisonment )

Since all firearms require a license, you can only buy ammo when you show them your firearms-license, making it impossible for foreigners to buy ammunition from now on (or even components to reload).

Seems Belgian government has begun disarming its population

I would suggest looking at other potential countries for ‘supplies’
Firearms silencers are OTC in France, Finland, Norway, “airgun”silencers can be had OTC in the UK. ( which perfectly fit any .22 LR ;) )
Former East-Block countries who recently joined the European Union still have vast amount of ordinance lying around.
Semi-auto AK47s and VZ58s as well as most CZ rifles could be had without too much questions asked in the Czech Republic a couple years ago for a fist full of dollars. ( travel over there, get a local beggar purchase it for you and get it across the border )

It might also be worth noticing that “demilitarized” SMGs and assault rifles are sold OTC in several European countries. Some of these countries simply weld a steel rod inside the barrel, so no live ammunition can be used anymore. This leaves the chamber and receiver of the gun intact. Simply drilling out this rod leaves you with a (very inaccurate) monster spitting out brass at 800rpm. :D

[Jacks Complete]

Anyone got a source for this further tightening of the UK firearms law to cover components?

[tomu]

...SNIP It might also be worth noticing that “demilitarized” SMGs and assault rifles are sold OTC in several European countries. Some of these countries simply weld a steel rod inside the barrel, so no live ammunition can be used anymore. This leaves the chamber and receiver of the gun intact. Simply drilling out this rod leaves you with a (very inaccurate) monster spitting out brass at 800rpm. :D

Blackfalcon, I real would appreciate if you could tell us what european countries do a deactivation like you have described above, just weld a piece of steel rod into the bore but leave the barrel, champer and other gun parts (bolt, receiver etc.) otherwise intact. Or better where could those deact-SMGs be bought?

Do you have first hand experience, meaning do you have seen a deact-gun like you descriped and have you inspected it so you are sure there are no other modifications?

[BlackFalcoN]

Blackfalcon, I real would appreciate if you could tell us what european countries do a deactivation like you have described above, just weld a piece of steel rod into the bore but leave the barrel, champer and other gun parts (bolt, receiver etc.) otherwise intact. Or better where could those deact-SMGs be bought?

Do you have first hand experience, meaning do you have seen a deact-gun like you descriped and have you inspected it so you are sure there are no other modifications?

They fall under the same legislation as "alarm" pistols because they can only fire blanks. (requiring them to have a working firingmechanism)

They are not the same as "deco" weapons, which have been mutulated to the point that restoring them is practically impossible.

I've seen them on sale on various internet sites in Holland and Belgium and according to the seller I contacted, only a steel rod is welded into the barrel, preventing a bullet from exiting. (Although I have to admit that I haven't inspected one with my own eyes )
He also told me that they had been de-activated in Germany.
No license or paperwork is required at all.

I'll PM you with a link to an online auction where they are currently on sale.

[tomu]

Thanks Blackfalcon!

It's very interesting I really have to check this out. Normally in a greal un converted to salut meaning capable only of firing blanks, the following modifications are made. The chamber is drilled out and then altered to only fit blank cartridges by welding an insert into the chamber.

Then the barrel is drilled verticaly right in front of chamber with several holes at least the size of the caliber, instead of drilling several holes a slot can be milled at least of the width of the caliber. Normally that's it, sometimes the barrel is welded in place.

So the only thing which is altered in salut conversions is the barrel, you can get the real McCoy by just replacing the barrel. This has been done for years with converted military bolt action rifles in Germany. Salut barrel out, real barrel in.

[BlackFalcoN]

The barrel is destroyed on 'reactivation', since it will require you to drill out the obstruction and possibly refill holes which were made in the barrel.

Much better would be to buy a new barrel, but in most European countries I know of, finished barrels require you to have a permit to buy them ( and certainly to import them )

But as stated in a previous post by NOZ, there are countries where barrel blanks can be bought OTC (such as Austria), so making your own custom barrel out of these blanks should be possible in most cases.

Does anybody know of other (European?) countries where barrel blanks can be bought without any paperwork ?

[Jacks Complete]

Buying a finished barrel in the UK isn't possible. Even getting DOM tube is dammed hard. Better to make one from scratch.

I did think of a way around this, though. Not completely sure, but you could buy a long rifle de-act, and take a section of the barrel and turn that into a pistol. I'm not sure this would work under the new regs, though, because they cut the barrel lengthways and then weld it back.

The other option might well be to use a break-barrel airrifle barrel, and ream the end(s) out. I don't know the burst pressures, though. Get an old secondhand one, most likely. Good thick walls.

[nbk2000]

Not a firearm, but still cool, and seems to be a loophole somehow.

http://www.hfmgroup.com/professionalsupplies/blank-firing-grenades.html


Each unit comes complete with full instructions; civilian units come with 9mm adaptor and 12g housing only.


They say it's their top seller for paintball, but it seems WAY too military for such.

Someone in britan needs to contact these people and find out if it actually is legal for 'civilians' to buy, and what's the difference between this version and the 'non-civilian' model.

[Jacks Complete]

Perfectly legal, as far as I can see. Noise makers are fine over here. I've got a 12g blank firing tripwire thing, which basically consists of a big spring driven firing pin and a steel frame to hold a 12g blank. The tripwire pulls a cotter pin out, and it fires.

Of course, the pin is so stiff it tends to snap the string! Easily modifed, though.

Available from most gun shops (yes, we do still have them!) for around £15, and 12g BP blanks are freely available (for now) In fact, that reminds me, I should stock up!

[nbk2000]

Stock up while you can, using someone else to show ID (if needed), 'cause you KNOW it's going to be banned sooner-or-later, and everyone who bought any getting a knock on the door. :(

[cletus]

Every European country has different standards concerning de-activated firearms,by going on a road trip through the EU you should be able to gather enough items to cobble one together.I think pre 1995 British de-acts are field strippable.Try to get a Browning Hi Power or a P-38 as both are widely distributed thus common throughout the continent.I believe slides and barrels can be bought off ticket in Germany pistol ammo is readily available in Amsterdam sold buy the same folks who sell hard drugs.

[Jacks Complete]

I'll tell you this, possession of a pre-1985 deact will get you jail time unless you can prove that you had it prior to the ban.

It used to be that the de-acts could be re-activated by "simply" machineing a new barrel and bolt. The working parts worked still, and the gun still looked like a gun, except the bolt face was cut off at 45 degrees, and the barrel was slit lengthways then welded back.

Now, almost all de-acts are welded solid and just bits of expensive junk that won't tell you even anything about the design and how it worked. Further, bare in mind that if the cops found you with the barrel or other working parts (anything pressure bearing, and a few other bits) they can still send you down for the minimum sentence of 5 years.

[tomu]

@cletus:

Slides as well as barrels and frames, receivers, bolts etc. are handled in Germany as the gun itself, you need to have a licencse to buy it and to own it.

If you can get ammunition from illegal sources in Amsterdam you certainly can get a gun from them too.

[jebidiah]

Cletus was on to something,the Czech Republic would be a good stop for a road trip. Parts are pretty much unregulated plus there is a thriving black market.

[rollinground]

I dont think the czech republic would be much good, it has become very "straight" in many ways, it doesnt have the corruption it use to, it is very much a tourist place now and the goverment has sorted out alot of the issues.

Bulgaria is suppose to be the place with loads of surplus floating around.

As for france check this site out it has a full table of the laws regarding purchasing weapons there. They are set up in funny ways in sections.

http://www.broma.fr

Section 5 - are shotguns
section 7 - are .22 rifles, 9mm garden guns (shotguns)
section 8 - are black powder guns, no licence, no decleration after sale, just proof of I.D. that you are over 18 years.

So you could get a shotgun or single shot .22 rifle without much hassle, they require you to provide, proof of i.d. (passport) and also a valid hunting licence, i think you can get these from post offices etc. They are hard to get for someone who isnt a french resident anyway, if you were french then there would be no problem.

You can buy .22, blackpowder, and shotgun ammo without any licence in france.

In the czech rep. you can get black powder guns and flobert pistols 4mmM20 without a licence, handguns are licenced but its easy to get a licence for them, you would need to be able to speak the language though.

Switzerland you could buy a handgun no problems, you need a licence to purchase one, however they currently have a loop hole in the law where private sales arent regulated for swiss citzerns. So if you had a swiss friend they could get you one from someone who was selling their gun privately.
I presume that getting shotguns and small caliber rifles is the same but easier.

You can get barrel blanks in the U.K. upto .25, not many places have them but you can buy them. They are for air rifles but once reamed would be most adequete, weiharuch (sp) do barrel blanks, the barrels are extremley thick and well made and would easily withstand live rounds.

Hope that helps a little, and hello as this is my first post :)

[Chris Werb]

I'll tell you this, possession of a pre-1985 deact will get you jail time unless you can prove that you had it prior to the ban.

It used to be that the de-acts could be re-activated by "simply" machineing a new barrel and bolt. The working parts worked still, and the gun still looked like a gun, except the bolt face was cut off at 45 degrees, and the barrel was slit lengthways then welded back.

Now, almost all de-acts are welded solid and just bits of expensive junk that won't tell you even anything about the design and how it worked. Further, bare in mind that if the cops found you with the barrel or other working parts (anything pressure bearing, and a few other bits) they can still send you down for the minimum sentence of 5 years.

Hi Jacks

Any deact you're purchased should have a deact cert with it (you can do your own deactivating provided you legally owned the gun in the first place, but it could go to a court case to prove that you've done it properly!). If your gun is pre '95 spec and your cert says the gun was deactivated pre '96, you're OK regardless of how many people owned the gun since deactivation or when you purchased it. Bolt actions, single shots and (bizarrely) crew-served weapons aren't welded up, even under today's rules. That leads to bizarre anomalies -for example a FAL rifle deactivated today would be welded up but a heavy barrelled FAL LMG wouldn't be - the same gun with a heavier barrel and a bipod. The 5 year compulsory sentence only applies to weapons that are currently S.5 (prohibited) - if you were caught with pressure bearing parts of say a Lee Enfield, it wouldn't apply. Where it gets weird is where there are overlaps - for example you can have a Lee Enfield smoothbored and with a pinned mag as an S.2 shotgun, but the bolt would fit an S.1 rifle version (assuming you checked the headspace!). Likewise you could own S.1 and S.2 versions of the same shotgun - the bolt of the first would be a controlled component and the bolt of the latter completely unregulated. BTW someone on this thread mentioned a limit of .25" calibre for unregulated (unchambered) barrel blanks. I'm not aware of that one - when did that law come in?

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Do not self-sign posts. Also, be aware that this thread has been dead for nearly two years. - Enkidu

[Chris Werb]

In the UK you can still legally purchase wthout any certificate firearms deemed 'antique'. To be antique they must:

1) Have been manufactured before the outbreak of WW-2 (the actual individual firearm - not just ones like it) AND

2) Be a non cartridge firearm

OR

3) Be chambered a pinfire (or some other long obsolete ignition system) cartridge

OR

4) Be chambered for a cartridge deemed 'obsolete' by the Home Office. There is a huge list of such cartridges in an appendix to the Home Office Guidance document which you can find at the followng link:

http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/operational-policing/HO-Firearms-Guidance.pdf?view=Binary

Theoretically this would allow you to own a fully operational machine gun for which ammunition, although deemed obsolete, IS still commercially available. I say 'theoretically' because would guess it's highly unlikely any of us could find, let alone afford a Gatling or Maxim chambered for .577-450, let alone find belts for the latter!

[Chris Werb]

I forgot to add that you can only possess the weapon for collector/display purposes - if you want to shoot it, it has to be on your SGC or FAC (and, if full auto you need authorisation from the Home Secretary or his equivalent in Scotland).

[Jacks Complete]

Yes, all that you have said is correct, to the best of my knowledge. Especially that last point.