What is the best surplus sniper rifle?

[ke6ziu]

I don't know about anyone here, but I think that the best military surplus rifle for sniping is the Mauser. Oh, the Mosin Nagant is pretty good, but that recoil after awhile will kick you in the ass! An 8mm Mauser can be used to reach out and touch a target up to 1000 yds, and if you're patient enough, you can even mount a POSP scope off an SVD onto your Mauser, making it even deadlier. Besides, the rifle is robust, and even accurate! There are several variants out there, but the best ones are the German variants, the Czech variants, the Yugo variants, the Belgian variants, and the Spanish variants. A rather unique variant of the Mauser was a transitional rifle that Spanish had; I think it was called the F7. It mated a barrel assembly, and a sight assembly from the CETME to a Mauser. It gave recruits the ability to shoot the same round used in the CETME, and gave them the opportunity to get used to diopter sights. Neat, eh?

[aikon]

The search button is your friend.

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/tools-techniques-plans/1771-best-bolt-action-rifle.html

[ozboy]

The Australian army uses the Parker-Hale M82 in .308 based on mauser-type action, with rotating bolt with 3 lugs, that locks into the receiver, and with non-rotating claw extracor. Heavy barrel is cold hammer-forged and free floated inside the stock. Trigger is fully ajustable for weight and length of pull. This rifle sholud be worth look at.

[neo-crossbow]

The Australian army uses the Parker-Hale M82 in .308 based on mauser-type action, with rotating bolt with 3 lugs, that locks into the receiver, and with non-rotating claw extracor. Heavy barrel is cold hammer-forged and free floated inside the stock. Trigger is fully ajustable for weight and length of pull. This rifle sholud be worth look at.

Not anymore buddy, Now its designated the "SR98" its an accuracy international .308 on an AICS synthetic stock.

I'd lean you towards purchasing a YUGO 8mm mauser off the shelf, in Australia you would want to go with a clean barrel .303 and fit B-Square mounts and probably a 8 X 40 (or higher magnitude or larger lense)

[oxbeast]

Hopefully you can still obtain surpluss, re-barrelled Mauser K-98s in .308.
The previous ones I worked on were Israeli on Czech Brno Mauser actions.

With a bit of woodwork and drilling for scope mounts they made nice sporters. Never had any head-spacing problems on those but it's still something I would recomend having checked. Also if you can get hold of a fired casing, check for blow-by on the case neck.

[Gollum]

Marstar Canada sells Norinco clones of the M14 which served as the basis of the M21 sniper system for around 350$ US, 399$ CDN.

In fact I believe marstar sells a sniping kit for that particular rifle. You won't be able to buy it in the US though due to Chinese gun import bans. A shame really. I own several norinco pistols (Mostly Tokarevs) and they are fucking fantastic, though they lack the polish of the real thing, they are just as, if not MORE functional, than the real thing.

They also sell a number of antique mausers as well as czech stuff. I'm not too interested in the WW2 rifles so can't vouch for their quality, but marstar is a good outfit so you can't really go wrong.

[Jacks Complete]

Pretty much any surplus military rifle is going to be a good buy, and you can be sure that it was tested plenty for the uses it was seen to be for.

Long bolt-action rifles were perfect for the trench warfare of WWI and WWII, the sub-machineguns were great for urban fighting in WWII and after. Pretty much all of the designs are plenty lethal, even against lightly armoured targets at long distances.

[irish]

So far as long range accuracy goes in surplus rifles you can't go past 98k and Swedish Mausers in 8mm and 6.5mm, main thing to look for is an OK barrel with a good crown and last few inches in the bore.

I have a model 98K Mauser in 8mmJS and while the barrel has seen a lot of use it is still a very good shooter out to several hundred meters, have not yet shot it over 1000 but will have a go when the chance arises. Mine cost AU$299 with Mil-surp ammo at AU$39 for 100 rounds, cheap ammo= more practice.

[Bert]

The Norinco M1A copies have had a bad reputation for poor steel in the receivers, according to gunsmiths I've asked they can actually STRETCH in use eventualy having headspace problems. This is in the US, so it's been a while since those guns were importable, maybe they're better now?

Can't go wrong with a 98 Mauser in good shape. Ammo is ridiculously cheap and quite accurate.

[Gollum]

That reputation was actually a result of the competitor starting rumors about the metal used in the gun.. It's a bunch of garbage. It's the same kind of rumor that the CZ-52 is better than the original Tokarev 33. The Tokarev is stronger than the CZ52 by far, has been proven many times over but you still see people blabbing on the net that the 52 is the stronger gun.

The M14S from norinco is a good gun and while it's no match rifle, it certainly won't fall apart like internet rumors make it out to do. The bolts are not as good as they should be, but can be replaced for pretty cheap at a gunsmith's.

As a bit of a slap in the face to springfield, the norinco m14s receivers are actually far better than the american version. The springfield armory receivers are made from cast steel, not forged. You'll see Springfield M1A's cracking long before you see a norinco stretching.

[neo-crossbow]

You'll see Springfield M1A's cracking long before you see a norinco stretching.

Well said, these days there are some pretty good Chinese fire-arms.

[oxbeast]

Chinese firearms are like Chinese machine tools. Some are absolutely great value for money while others are a bit rough.

Norinco used to produce (Possibly still do, I’ve been out of the firearm’s game for some years) an excellent clone of the Colt 1911. All the parts perfectly interchanged with Colt parts and the aftermarket accessories for Colts. The only problem, with the examples I saw in the 90s, was that the barrel was a bit soft and the barrel lugs would deform.

Generally people would get a nice .45 ACP for the price of the Norinco, a decent aftermarket barrel and linkage, a set of aftermarket grips and some adjustable sights.

All of the above still came out quite a bit cheaper than a used Colt 1911.

Back on the subject of rifles. Norinco also made some bolt-action K98 clones. The stocks were absolutely horrific (Wood painted red) but the barrel was fine and the action could be made quite slick with some jeweller’s grinding paste. These rifles used to be very cheap and actually shot pretty straight for the price.

[Gollum]

I love those ugly red wood stocks. It's a hobby of mine to reshape them with a wood plane then stain them a nice light brown color and finally a thin varnish to protect. I have some very beautiful air and real rifles that came to me looking ugly as sin but look fantastic now. Ugly stocks usually have a lot of extra wood to work with as well so you can customize your rifle stock to your own shooting style.

[AZDesertRat]

you can't go wrong with a good ole M44 Mosin. remove the bayonet throw on a good rubber butt pad and pick up a couple boxes of cheap ammo. The rifles are fun to shoot, fairly accurate, and you can easily lighten the trigger pull of the gun. I am not much into the so call "scout" rifles, but I did use the idea of putting on a long eye relief scope on mine and it works great for long or shot shots at Javalina here in the west, where you want to shoot quick before the buggers run off into the creosote bush or sneak up on you and take off your toes at the ankle.:D

[cletus]

The model 96 SWEDISH Mauser is the only logical choice,all service rifles had to shoot 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards before they were issued.The fact that Sweden never fought in any wars while this was the issue weapon means that nearly all of them are in pristine condition.Leupold makes an excellent scope mount avoid the mount from B-Suare it is absolute junk.My rifle will outshoot any production Remington,Savage,Browning etc.The ballistics are amazing 6.5x55mm hands down kicks ass.
All this for under $200 dollars.

[Tectonic]

Hmm.. Mosin-Nagant. They're cheap, reliable, and legendary. Simo Haya (I believe), a Finnish sniper, bagged over 500 Russians with it, with only Iron Sights.

[Cobalt.45]

My choice of a surplus sniper would be a Springfield Model 1903A4.

You gotta like the .30-06; Remington alone has 19 different loads for it, ranging from 55 gr (4080 fps) to 220 gr (2410 fps). Too bad it was deemed too long, among other considerations, to make it into the .308- era weapons.

As far a military rounds go, in it's day I know of nothing else that surpasses it for flatness of trajectory out to 500 yards, or energy delivered. But if there is, I hope someone will say.

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

My rifle will outshoot any production Remington,Savage,Browning etc.The ballistics are amazing 6.5x55mm hands down kicks ass.
All this for under $200 dollars.
I've shot < .25 moa groups through a fresh out of the box virgin savage 10fp-le2 w/ federal 168 grain match ammo. Their "accutrigger" rules, and so does having a heavy, free floating barrel.

Now, I'm not doubting the accuracy of the 96, but its not going to match a savage that's been properly broken in and cared for.

[oxbeast]

A few people have mentioned the Nagant. It would appear that they do make a very cost effective Scout Rifle.

Below are two articles detailing the construction of Nagant Scout Rifles.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/mosinscoutrifle/index.asp

http://home.earthlink.net/~hwsportsman/CheapScout.html

The first one gives an estimated $500 cost for the project as opposed to the $2500 that a Steyr Scout would cost.

[abouali]

CheyTac Long Range Rifle System - Intervention sniper rifle (USA


Caliber: .408 CheyTac
Operation: manually operated rotating bolt action
Barrel: 762 mm (30")
Weight: 12.3 kg
Length: 1400 mm (stock retracted), 1220 mm (stock collapsed)
Feed Mechanism: 5 rounds detachable box magazine

The entire idea behind the CheyTac LRRS (Long Range Rifle System) is to provide long range soft target interdiction (read: anti-personnel sniper) rifle package, with maximum effective range, but relatively compact and light. To achieve this goal, the professor John D. Taylor designed the .408 CheyTac cartridge. Being mid-way in size between the mighty .50BMG and already established long-range favorite .338Lapua, the .408 features a streamlined bullet with advanced patented design. This design allows the standard 419 grain (27.15 gram) bullet to retain its supersonic velocity at the ranges beyond 2000 meters (2200 yards). At the ranges beyond 700 meters the .408 bullet has more energy than the standard .50BMG ball bullet. The .408 cartridge also is lighter than .50BMG cartridge by about 1/3, and generates less recoil.

The original CheyTac Intervention M100 rifle is based on the Windrunner .50 caliber takedown rifle from EDM Arms. Current Intervention M200 sniper rifles still are based on Windrunner design, but with several modifications. The Long Range Rifle System also includes CheyTac tactical computer (commercial PDA with CheyTac ballistic software), Nightforce NXS 5.5-22X scope, and Kestrel 4000 wind/temperature/atmospheric pressure sensors, linked to the PDA. The Tactical Computer with sensors and internal ballistic database provides all necessary data for long range fire. CheyTac papers state that the entire System is capable to deliver sub-MOA accuracy at the ranges of up to 2500 yards (2270 meters).

The Intervention M200 is a manually operated, rotating bolt rifle. The retractable buttstock allows for adjustment of the length of pull, and can be fully collapsed for storage and transportation. The barrel can be quickly removed for replacement, or storage and transportation. The butt contains integral real monopod, which is hinged, and can be folded up when not in use. The heavy, fluted barrel is free floated, and its rear part is enclosed by tubular shroud, which serves as a mount for integral folding bipod and carrying handle. Barrel is provided with effective muzzle brake, which can be replaced with OPSINC suppressor (silencer). M200 rifle is fed using detachable single stack magazines, which hold 5 rounds. Top of receiver is fitted with permanent MilStd Picatinny rail. Standard scope is Nightforce NXS 5.5-22X, which can be upgraded with AN/PVS-14 Night Vision module and AN/PEQ-2 IR laser. No iron sights are provided with M200 rifle.

CheyTac Associates also offers a less expensive, non-takedown single shot rifle in .408 caliber, the Intervention M310. This bolt action rifle with adjustable polymer stock is suitable for long range sport shooting, as well as for police long range snipers.


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You're obviously quoting someone else, now that I put it in a quotation box, so why don't you include the source of the quote in your next post? Then we know who you're quoting and not just trying to pass someone elses words off as your own. :)

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

nbk: He's quoting http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn63-e.htm

[c4550]

My choice would be a current issue military/police sniper rifle. Cost under $1000 (not including scope).

Best value for the money would be the Mosin. Can get those under $100 right now. Not to mention, ammo for it is cheap and plentiful.

True German K98s, Springfields, etc are worth much more in original configuration, so you would lose value if you ever went to sell it.

I had a really beat up old SMLE. Cleaned it up, was all pitted badly. But it shot beautifully. A SMLE could be another choice but they are a bit pricier than a Mosin and the ammo is more costly. They also have a two piece stock that detracts from long distance accuracy. Mine I shot with iron sights.

If money is an issue, as it is for me, I'd go with the Mosin. Hand pick one with deep sharp rifiling. Have it fitted for a quality scope and you're in the game :)

[professor k]

Nobody's mentioned the Swiss K-31, the ammo is expensive as hell, for a surplus rifle. However, it's supposed to be very accurate, like under 1MOA. It is a straight pull rifle, not like a regular bolt action rifle. The rifles aren't expensive, around 130.

I think Nagants in unissued condition have good accuracy, too. I saw one thing where the guy got 1 inch groups at 75 yards with his m44 carbine, but this was only after he unfolded the bayonet. Nagant scope mounts don't cost much, either.

Mauser would probably be best, though, because there's so much you can do with them. There's mausers in all calibers, and you can get them accurized and the trigger lightened and all that. Also, it is a very popular action, I think many sporting rifles have a mauser action , and many Mausers were sporterized.

For semi-auto, there's some choices. There's many surplus FALs and G3s here now for around 400-600 dollars. They're not really that good for sniping, but they have been used for sniping.

You can get a Romak-3 Dragunov for around 400-500, and it fires cheap 7.62x54r, but many people report only 2-3MOA with milsurp ammo. Keep in mind, most of the ammo is made for the PKM machinegun, it doesn't need to be very accurate. In russia, the dragunov was made to extend a soviet rifle squad's range, not really to snipe. There is supposedly some match grade ammo around that gets 1MOA, though, but I havent found any.

The M14, the Norinco wouldnt be a bad base. I heard some were heat treated badly, but most of what I've heard about them is good. As for the headspacing thing, well, this is kind of funny. .308 Win and 7.62NATO aren't exactly the same. They'll both feed, chamber, fire, ect in rifles made for eachother, but 7.62 NATO has slightly different headspacing. The Norinco was headspaced for 7.62 NATO. So, the gunsmiths checking headspacing were using .308 headspace gauges.

If you can find a Norinco M14, buy it. Too bad we in the US can't order Norincos from marstar, as those deals are fucking awesome (too bad the dollar exchange is just about equal now). However, the Norinco/Polytech M14 can still be gotten in US for only 400-500 dollars. If you have a friend in Canada, have him get you one and get it across the border (shouldn't be too hard, especially if you're going with a family, if you're going with a family and a minivan full of shit, they wont check you AT ALL.)

[TreverSlyFox]

Probably the most accurate Military Surplus rifle being sold currently is the Swiss K-31 "Stright Pull" bolt action rifle in 7.5 Swiss. Excellent examples are being sold currently for under $150 here in the U.S. and most reports are under 2 MOA and many of 1 MOA. The current Swiss 7.5, GP-11 FMJ surplus ammo being sold is "Match" grade ammo, though it's not quite as cheap as most Military Surplus 8mm, 7.62x54R or 7.62x51NATO.

www.aimsurplus.com is currently selling "Select" grade Swiss K-31's for $149.95 and 7.5 Swiss, GP-11 ammo for $156 for a 480 round case or $3.95 for a 10 round box. Both "Clamp-on" and "Drill & Tap" 1" scope mounts are available from both Graf & Sons and Brownell's for the K-31.

From Wikipedia:

The K31 is noted for its straight-pull action, meaning that the bolt is pulled directly back, then pushed forward to cycle the action between shots, rather than being turned and pulled back, as in Mauser pattern rifles such as the K98k.

K31s are also noted for their amazing accuracy. The Swiss considered individual marksmanship to be of utmost importance. Therefore, the K31 was made with tight tolerances and excellent overall craftsmanship. Many shooters are able to achieve one minute of arc with unmodified K31s. This means that a group of bullets shot at 100 yards will stay within a 1" diameter area, a group at 200 yards will stay within 2", etc.

Many collectors of the K31 have removed the butt plate and recovered a small slip of plasticized paper from beneath it. This slip contains the name and address of the Swiss citizen to whom the rifle was issued. Collectors have used the information to contact the previous owners in some cases, and have recounted the details of those encounters on a variety of collector's web forums.

[oxbeast]

The K-31s are excellent rifles. The ammunition is a bit expensive, although reloading for it shouldn't be a problem.

K-31s do have quite a few options for scope mounting. Unfortunately I don't know of any synthetic stocks (Or any other aftermarket stocks for that matter) being available.

Below is a link for an English version of the K-31 Manual.

http://www.swissrifles.com/sr/english_k11_k31_manual.pdf

[neo-crossbow]

Now, I'm not doubting the accuracy of the 96, but its not going to match a savage that's been properly broken in and cared for.

Finally another savage fan, I knew there had to be atleast one. I think your post almost mirrors one of mine pushing the same envelope!

Accu-triggers are going to be the norm once they catch on. No more smithing required for trigger jobs, and why fork out for an aftermarket trigger when you pay big bucks in the first place for the rifle>?

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

Finally another savage fan, I knew there had to be atleast one. I think your post almost mirrors one of mine pushing the same envelope!

Accu-triggers are going to be the norm once they catch on. No more smithing required for trigger jobs, and why fork out for an aftermarket trigger when you pay big bucks in the first place for the rifle>?
Savages arent even that pricey for the quality. It's the optics that get you.

[festergrump]

No sense in ever arguing over which bolt-racker milsurp is going to be the best, as they're all acceptable for this purpose, and it becomes merely a personal preference beyond much else than MOA at 100 yds. (1 MOA at 100 = 5 MOA at 500 = acceptable. Providing the barrel's not 'shot out' all C+R milsurp should be capable of this or better). Reputation of the Swiss 7.5mm rifles seem to outweigh most of the other's, FWIW.

Shadowgeek's got a point on the optics, though. You get what you pay for, pretty much. So long as you can get an aftermarket bolt (bent) where applicable for optics mount, you should be good to go.

So, IMHO, the best answer to the question: "What is the best surplus sniper rifle?" would have to be:

One you can consistantly hit dead center of human head sized target at 500 yards but don't mind detatching the optics and ditching at the bottom of a murky lake somewhere once you've used it...

(...or was the term "sniper rifle" used loosely by the OP to mean accurate?):confused:

[Docca]

A. No sense in ever arguing over which bolt-racker milsurp is going to be the best, as they're all acceptable for this purpose ... FWIW.

B. Shadowgeek's got a point on the optics, though. You get what you pay for...

C. One you can consistantly hit dead center of human head sized target at 500 yards...

D. But don't mind detatching the optics and ditching at the bottom of a murky lake somewhere once you've used it...

A. Absolutely correct.

B. Also correct. If you want optics that compliment the accuracy of your weapon expect to spend approximately the same on each - $500 rifle needs $500 optics. You approach "top of the line" optics around U.S. $1500.

C. 500 yds is a damn long shot - anyone who thinks they can make that shot reliably without a lot of practice and a damn good rifle / ammo is fooling themselves. 5 MPH crosswind at that range equals ~ 10 - 20" (with the best equipment money can buy), an easy miss on the human head. Your average milsurp bolt action shouldn't even be considered for this type of work. It should be noted that the longest recorded U.S. swat team sniper shot was ~ 97 yards. A well documented shot by FBI HRT (Vicki Weaver) was probably closer to 220 yds (and the longest U.S. LE shot I'm aware of).

D. Surely you should plan ahead better than that...

[PirateJoe]

+1 for the K-31. hell, any northern european bolt-actions going to be great. swedish mausers, finnish nagants, swiss k-31's, all excellent and accurate.

[Mauser7]

Swiss K-31 rifles are supposedly the most accurate of the surplus bolt action rifles. However, ammunition is not cheap and neither are the rifles. The rifles are over 200 dollars and there is no cheap surplus ammunition like there is for the mosin-nagant and the mauser.
Russia had more snipers during WWII than any other country. The mosin nagant sniper rifles were hand picked for their accuracy. However, after the war they did not have the need for so many snipers, so many of the rifles had the scopes removed and were reissued as standard infantry rifles.
You can find an ex-sniper mosin nagant 91/30 fairly easily. When inspecting rifles at a gun show or a gun shop look at the receiver. If it is an ex-sniper it will have two drill holes on the left side of the receiver that have been filled. These should be the most accurate mosins as long as the barrel is in good condition and there is no pitting of the barrel. Always inspect the barrel before buying a rifle! Nothing is worse than getting home and looking at the rusty sewer pipe you have for a barrel.
All of the non US rifles during WWII fired corrosive ammunition, if not cleaned properly it can rust up and pit the barrel. To combat this, when you clean the rifle spray some windex or warm soapy water down the barrel. Dry completely and then clean as normal. Also, check the end of the barrel to see if there is any rifling. Buying a 5 dollar bore light at a gun show is a useful tool. When the mosin nagants were refurbished in the Ukraine, worn out barrels were counterbored. This is where they drill the end of the rifling out of the barrel to improve accuracy.
Ammunition for the mosin-nagant can be bought in large quantities for about 10 cents a round. You can find a mosin-nagant 91/30 or m44 for about 100 US dollars.

[prespec]

The Karabiner 31 will shoot the pants off most service rifles, but they are fussy with ammo. I have shot the Swiss military program for about the last ten years, and know what they can do.
With a good rifleman , they will shoot in the the standard ISU 100mm 10-ring all day long at 300 meters. But they do lack primary extraction and will not close on oversize or dirty ammo....but that does not matter, as the Swiss service 7.5 ammo is better than most guys can hand-load.
They also have about the same performance as an '06 all day long,actually more like the barrage round, and the bullet is a true VLD shape, long before that was even thought of.
Being top-ejecting , scope mounting needs to be offset or scout-style.

The Swedish Mauser is a fine rifle too. But I have great difficulty believing they needed to be 1/4 minute tested before being issued to squaddies.
Most custom gunsmiths , building equivalent rifles....say high end hunting rigs..would still baulk at such a guarantee. Different story for match rifles. The variables are just too geat in a military situation, and the requirement is unecessary.
Having said that, I built my personal alpine rifle in 6.5x55, because of its efficiency. And it does shoot 1/4 minute.
The 6.5 Swede will shoot flatter than many of the new generation hot-rods due to the high BC of the 129-140 grain pills available, and do it with less recoil and fuss than most.

The Lee-Enfields were a great battle rifle, but when they were retired from active full-bore competition, target centres were decreased in size in all countries that used them. Need I say more?

Any of the good, front locking, service rifles of the WW1-WW2 era would be up for sniping, provided they still had good, bright bores.

My picks would be, in rough order, Mod 17/ P14 Enfield, Any 7x57 Mauser, Any other Mauser , Springfield 03 , Garand M1D, Schmidt-Rubin, Nagant.

But leaves out a host of others, and any of the above could change places for a lot of reasons.

[Bacon46]

Ammunition for the mosin-nagant can be bought in large quantities for about 10 cents a round.

Where are you getting your mosin-nagant ammo? I'm having a hell of a time finding it for my sons 91/30.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I used to know a fellow who insistent that the best barrel in the world can not transform a rifle if the trigger was sloppy, had a large amount of over-travel, & creep. The two stage trigger needs a special type of stoning to transform it into a target-level item. Over-travel is inherent in such a design (see Winchester model 70) without a stop screw. Creep and break is controlled by angle and placement of the engagement ledge as well as it's surface hardness and depth.

This is not to say that the above mentioned rifles are poor by any means but to concentrate on barrel and not look at the control that the shooter has is (IMO) to absolve the human factor and concentrate on the propulsion of the bullet only as a means of comparison.

[prespec]

I used to know a fellow who insistent that the best barrel in the world can not transform a rifle if the trigger was sloppy, had a large amount of over-travel, & creep. The two stage trigger needs a special type of stoning to transform it into a target-level item. Over-travel is inherent in such a design (see Winchester model 70) without a stop screw. Creep and break is controlled by angle and placement of the engagement ledge as well as it's surface hardness and depth.

This is not to say that the above mentioned rifles are poor by any means but to concentrate on barrel and not look at the control that the shooter has is (IMO) to absolve the human factor and concentrate on the propulsion of the bullet only as a means of comparison.

Many rifles perform well with barrels that are of indifferent quality, for example, factory hammer-forged Remington 700 tubes. But you must purchase any surplus rifle with at least, a good barrel, with intact rifling and a good bright bore.

The tuning work just starts here, and all subsequent efforts are likely to be wasted without this.
It is also entirely possible to shoot well with a nicely set up two-stage trigger, as long as it has a crisp release once the second stage is engaged.

I have sorted numerous Win Mod 70 triggers, and this is easily enough done with pivot-pin replacement, re-hardening and careful polishing of the engaging surfaces. Even backlash can be tamed.

The bench-rest guys need extraordinarily light triggers, as they are after low 0.1" groups, just to stay in the game. But many fullbore disciplines proscribed triggers under 1.5kg on the range in the mid 1990's, due to safety concerns, and it was interesting to note how scores did not immediately decline.

Probably the best factory trigger is the Rem 700 and variants. But even these can be adjusted outside the design envelope and become unreliable.
Installing a third-lever is a great way to overcome this and have a very light trigger.
As for service rifles, there are a welter of good replacement triggers available, - Timney, Dayton Traister, and so-on. They are not expensive for what they can do, and are not difficult to install.

[Xenodius]

Just my 2 cents, I knew a guy who bought a Yugo 8mm Large ring K98 Mauser, and he bought a scope mount that attaches to the rear sight, no idea what scope he had though. It was a variable zoom ?x24x50mm, but he didn't do *anything* to the stock, trigger, etc, and he got >.5 MOA groups! Which is surprising since the barrel wasn't free floated, etc...

I personally own a Yugo 8mm Mauser, with an ATI stock on it. I have yet to get the right scope rings on it, but am currently shooting military surplus <2800 fps, 173gr, FMJ rounds, and using the iron sights I can easily hit soda cans at 100 yards. I sometimes wish I could exchange some of the 2,500 rounds I bought for chemicals...

(Note: Shooting those rounds in a Small Ring Mauser could cause the gun to rupture! Any ammo you buy today will be >2350 fps, for that very reason! Thats why I plan on reloading for it)

I also know that German Mausers are supposedly better made, and more accurate. But they are a pretty penny due to collectors buying them up. I got mine on clearance for $100 bucks, with a wide-arc bolt (test model, 2 year production!) and in excellent condition. Minus the cosmoline dripping off it. Pain to clean, its like axle grease.

PS: Prespec, my dad has a Rem 700 action, chambered in 22-250, with a Bushnell Elite 4200 8x24x42mm Firefly reticle scope... That thing can hit just about anything! Very light trigger, long barrel, incredible scope. The whole setup new, however, would cost nearly $2,000....

[InfernoMDM]

Mosin - Great rifle.

WARNING - Not every Mosin is a sniper rifle. There are tons of different versions and most aren't sniper rifles. You can look online to find the details but the easiest ways is look down the barrel, if it has lots of twists thats the one you want.

Mil Surplus vs Civilian - Generally most surplus rifles that end up a snipers hands have been in a custom gunsmiths hands. That being said you are probably better off buying a civilian hunting rifle in whatever caliber then picking up a newer Mil rifle. The M1A is ok on accuracy, but it takes some work to really get them tuned to .25 MOA. If you want Mil Surplus do your homework some are easy to modify for better shots, others are great out of the box, then other people believe they are a sniper with say a M14(M1A).

Ranged shooting - If you don't shoot long ranges don't expect to shoot well from anything, but prone on a stationary target. It takes practice.

[Mauser7]

You can look online to find the details but the easiest ways is look down the barrel, if it has lots of twists thats the one you want.

Look for lots of twists down the barrel?:rolleyes: That doesn't make any sense. If any rifle is going to shoot accurately it needs to have good rifling. Is that the twists you are talking about? The barrel twist rates were the same for the mosin snipers as they were for the standard issue mosin nagants. The were handpicked out of the regular service rifles for having the best accuracy.

The way to know if a rifle was an ex-sniper is to look on the left side of the receiver. The scopes were off set to the left to allow for the use of stripper clips. If it has two holes that have been filled, that is where they drilled and tapped for the scope mount. That is how you tell if it was an ex-sniper.

Beware of rifles mounted with the scope already, they may not be actual snipers, but rather fitted with a reproduction scope so they can sell them for more money.

a good website for mosin nagant info as well as ammunition ballistics is www.7.62x54r.net .

[prespec]

A lot of the really good 1891's were made by what is now Tikka in Finland.

Xenodius...I know how good a Remington 700 can be....I used to earn my living by setting them up.
A new or used 700 would end up on my bench , be pulled apart... then fully worked and quite often fitted with a match grade barrel. Despite the washboard appearance , the later hammer-forged barrels went just fine, but most of the problems were in the factory chambering and crowning, which was often rough.
With a modern factory Remington, if you get a good one....great, but a Friday one will need a lot of work. Same applies to most factory rifles, no matter who makes them.
Pleased to hear the 22/250 is a tack-driver. I have one too and have shot everything from magpies to deer with it , some at + 400 yds.

[InfernoMDM]

[QUOTE=Mauser7;90459]Look for lots of twists down the barrel?:rolleyes: That doesn't make any sense. If any rifle is going to shoot accurately it needs to have good rifling. Is that the twists you are talking about? The barrel twist rates were the same for the mosin snipers as they were for the standard issue mosin nagants. The were handpicked out of the regular service rifles for having the best accuracy.

The way to know if a rifle was an ex-sniper is to look on the left side of the receiver. The scopes were off set to the left to allow for the use of stripper clips. If it has two holes that have been filled, that is where they drilled and tapped for the scope mount. That is how you tell if it was an ex-sniper.

Beware of rifles mounted with the scope already, they may not be actual snipers, but rather fitted with a reproduction scope so they can sell them for more money.

a good website for mosin nagant info as well as ammunition ballistics is www.7.62x54r.net

Yes the rifleing is what I am talking about. The website you showed was fine, but some mosin nagants had far more twists then others. I am not sure if that is common but my friend had a mosin that had a higher twist rate then a standard Mosin I believe. I probably should do a bit more reserach but I at the moment am short on time. Also your website is just one of several out there that goes into details.

I believe it might have been one of the finish designs, but in all honesty I can't remember. There are several models, by several nations including US, however the finish ones get top dollar these days.

[prespec]

Should be about 1-10" for any .30 cal, using bullets up to 220 gr.
1-12" works just fine with around 150-165 gr bullets driven at 7.62 Russ. / 308 Win speeds too. Both rounds are identical performance wise,and apart from the rim and neck length, pretty close in dimension.

[InfernoMDM]

My apologies, you were absolutely right. I went to my local haunts and they had the one of the collectors addition sniper rifle, and a few basic Mosins. Same twist rate, but different bolt handle etc.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Probably the best factory trigger is the Rem 700 and variants. But even these can be adjusted outside the design envelope and become unreliable.
Installing a third-lever is a great way to overcome this and have a very light trigger.


Many Savage owners would dispute that :D However my point is that all the beautiful barrels in the world do not a fine rifle make if the trigger is shit. Rem-700, Savage's new system, etc are all great but the factory mil trigger is generally quite poor. Personally I would consider the trigger and barrel together when making an evaluation of mil-surp stuff. And that's very subjective. Some people don't like creep, others expect it but want no over-travel, etc, etc.

I have seen a Swede and a Styer that had both & that was a rare deal. I also believe that it's damn hard to shoot out a 30 cal bbl. The gases aren't hot enough and the chances are greater that the owner hurt the lands with a steel cleaning rod more than the few thousand rounds hurt the rifling.

There is a builder that uses Hirtenburger barrels and claims that the "life" of the bbl is about 10k rounds. Air measurement tools reveal that the barrel at that point has approx 30% wear from lands at the throat. I suppose that in real bench-rest level competition that holds some weight but I find it hard to believe that any military would have it's armorer re-barrel just on number reference alone....

[prespec]

Dead right Charles Owen Picket, about poor barrel cleaning! More throats and crowns are ruined by bad cleaning habits than actual shooting.
Strangely enough, the plastic coated rods are often worse than a polished , hardened steel rod. The plastic eventually picks up primer residue and other grit , which becomes embedded and makes a very effective hone , whereas the steel rod , if wiped before use , is much less likely to abrade.

I have heard some good things about the newer Savage 110's and even the early ones were good shooters when set -up properly.

I agree about the .30 cal and barrel life. Given standard military loads and good care any of the .30 , 8mm military rifles can maintain useful accuracy for up to 10k rounds. But most full-bore shooters are wise to re-barrel after about 3000-4,500 to stay in the game.
Bench rest shooters are in an entirely more rigorous discipline , and will throw away barrels which would be considered fine for anything else.

I believe the Wehrmacht tested the M98 8x57 and found select rifles able to shoot into 1metre at 1000 metres after 10k rounds. Entirely sufficient for military use.
Many of our club Karabiner 31's have high usage and exhibet the typical European soft rifling form and some have uniform micro-pitting when viewed through a borescope , although appearing bright to the un-aided eye. They will still shoot into the 10-ring, and the Swiss armorers regard the 10k mark as still viable for military accuracy.

[shootodog]

how about the MSSR? I don't know if it's available on surplus but it's based on the M16 which is readily available...

[shootodog]

The K-31s are excellent rifles. The ammunition is a bit expensive, although reloading for it shouldn't be a problem.

K-31s do have quite a few options for scope mounting. Unfortunately I don't know of any synthetic stocks (Or any other aftermarket stocks for that matter) being available.

Below is a link for an English version of the K-31 Manual.

http://www.swissrifles.com/sr/english_k11_k31_manual.pdf

i think the link is dead.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I do not doubt for one second that a plastic cleaning rod could also score the barrel. Any time the weapon is exposed to idiots; it has more deleterious impact than most any natural cause (except perhaps sea water).

All just my opinion.......However: The removal of copper fowling is something that is rarely spoken of with the emphasis needed. I have seen barrels that appeared to be worn they had so much fouling. The throat may appear to have some erosion in it that may be copper as well. All military barrels should be treated for copper fouling before any honest appraisal is made. Copper fouling can also be responsible for a gas oriented self-loader to malfunction.

A two stage trigger (typical mil-surp) is somewhat unique to that genre'. Here we have a trigger that has "take-up" and the break may come as no surprise due to the spring stacking at the height of the pull. The best triggers for a multitude of task break in a manner that somewhat surprises the user. When the user knows the trigger will break they often flinch, put "English" on the weapon, or simple attempt to over steady. This results in lessened accuracy. The crown of the barrel is also a pivotal issue. A poorly made or distorted crown will ruin any rifle.

An extremely good example of this is the Ruger 77 bolt weapon. A generally adequate weapon modeled after the Mauser, with a well made bolt. The trigger is mostly rated as detestable from the factory and the barrel for many are manufactured with very deep lands & grooves. It is a classic for copper fouling. One of the most fouled barrels I have ever seen was a Ruger. It took a serious hour of cleaning to remove what about 100 rds could do. And it made a huge difference. A Timmney trigger was employed to simply get rid of the factory trigger and the results were astounding.

I am deeply convinced that the trigger / barrel combination is the key to starting to get a fine weapon. The above mentioned Ruger was sold to a friend who does shoot "for real". He bought it from it's owner who just got tired of the trigger and the fouling. The custom trigger was installed and a medium heavy contour barrel with a 11 degree crown installed started to turn it into a seriously fine weapon. The barrel was chosen on length of free throat area which optimized the use of the twist type for 7.62 NATO (this case was 1:10) to minimize copper.

I was very impressed with this little project I witnessed. It demonstrated collectively a great deal of the issues which had been discussed by some of the people here.

[Gunjack]

If i had to make the choice i would take a cg63 or even better , a cg80.

These are match rifles made at the Carl Gustaf factory with the original Carl Gustaf actions, triggers,...
In the original caliber(6,5mm) or .308
Only the furniture (stock) and match barrel are the difference.
Far better than any wo2 sniper rifle if you ask me.
That is if they can be considered surplus???
If you local law does they are.

[shootodog]

i think the link is dead.

in english, armourer's manual k-11 and k-31 (http://www.swissrifles.com/sr/english_k11_k31_manual.pdf)

also i found this as well (http://www.swissrifles.com/sr/manual/ZfK55_Manual_Eng.pdf)

[Mauser7]

More throats and crowns are ruined by bad cleaning habits than actual shooting.

A good way to avoid messing up your barrel when cleaning it is to use a bore snake. It is basically a rope that goes through the barrel instead of a steel or brass rod. You should be able to pick one up at any gun shop. A .30 cal bore snake is all you need for a variety of .30 cal firearms.

However my point is that all the beautiful barrels in the world do not a fine rifle make if the trigger is shit.

Just about any surplus rifle has a variety of aftermarket triggers that can help fix trigger creep or excessive lbs of pull. The mauser has probably the most available due to the action being so popular for alot of custom built rifles. There are also after market triggers for the mosin. With most of the aftermarket triggers you can adjust the lbs of trigger pull.

A site that comes to mind for aftermarket triggers is www.midwayusa.com . Their prices are fairly reasonable and the shipping isn't too expensive either.

[nbk2000]

Grit gets embedded into the fiber of the boresnake rope, eventually turning it into a sandpaper rope, and rather quickly too.

Fine for quick cleaning of crappy rifles in the field, but not for any kind of precision rifle!

[prespec]

I would never use a boresnake or any other pull-through type cleaner apart from expedient field cleaning. They often get dragged past the crown at an angle, and a lot of surplus rifles show uneven wear due to this.
If you really have to use one, pull it straight out.
Crowns can often be salvaged by running a brass , dome -head screw in a drill with grinding paste if a lathe is unavailable, but it takes a while.

I have made up muzzle guides for cleaning rods for some of my auto's , which can not be readily cleaned from the breech . The M1 ,M14, Mini 14 etc.

[a3990918]

I'm still fond of my ole .303 Enfield sportster over my Mauser. The Enfield has sentimental value, my dad bought it mail-order back in 53'.:) The Mauser was a gift from a friend a few years back.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

This thread deals with either a misnomer or a concept that really has not been addressed. I doubt that anyone is selling a surplus M40A1, etc. So by surplus I suppose what common surplus rifle could be tuned into a target rifle? And with that in mind I wonder how far people are willing to go to get sub-1MOA groups....(?)

I have a barrel vise and have built some rifles in my time. I have started with a 98 Mauser receiver and plopped a Krieger barrel (7.62 NATO) moderate heavy taper 26" and Timney trigger on a bedded stock (store bought). That little sweetheart ran sub 1 MOA with fair glass at 200meters. But I traded it off a while ago. This thing has been run up at rec.guns for years on end.....

The last thing I worked on was another Mauser 98 with an actual heavy (1.35" no taper!) in 300 win mag to see if I could even get on paper @1100yds and it did but I can't shoot like a old friend of mine who actually is competitive. I don't even rank in the real Camp Perry level shit.

I am very lucky that I can literally drive 5 minutes and be shooting on a friend's property. We "lasered" it and made up a little range from 100-1100yrds. but from what little I know about real sniping, I don't think I have close to that level of skill nor have I ever been in that good of shape (those people are a whole different world from my arm-chair thing).

However, one damn good rifle was the WWI rifle commonly known as a American Enfield in '06. that's good buy if you can get a decent one. Those generally group, even with a mil trigger.

[MrSamosa]

My friends and I all have a wide range of surplus rifles between us that we take to the range on our "range days." I actually sold my two surplus rifles though...and bought a shiny new AR-15 :D. I *owned* a K-31, however, and I am very partial towards it. In fact, I think I might buy another one to participate in competition shooting.. For sniping/long range shooting, you can't go wrong with it.

First thing, the Swiss had mandated that all ammunition used in their rifles be non-corrosive. So the rifle's stock will almost invariably look like crap (lots of stories behind that), but the barrel will be *shiny.* Oh, and the original design for the K31 had the barrel free floating. You don't need special skills to give the rifle a free floating barrel.

And about that ammo: GP-11 ammo is some of the best ammo I've used. I prefer it over the commercial ammo (although Prvi Partizan makes good stuff and is reloadable). It's clean, has the perfect shape, and it hits hard (well, I can only say that non-scientifically based on a "test" we did against a medicine ball at the range. A 7.62x39 and .308 all had their turn at it, but the 7.5x55 had the final word: it ripped the thing to pieces).

It is a very classy bolt action rifle. The straight pull is very fast, smooth, and lessens your bodily motions while you get back on target. Plus it packs a 6 round detachable magazine (although a replacement mag goes for $50ish...it was still meant to be reloaded via stripper clips). The trigger is excellent; right up there with the Enfield. It is also very light-weight and "quick"--the iron sights aren't great for precision [although they are still high quality], but they are very open and give the shooter a wide field of view (they're similar to Kalashnikov sights).

In addition, now that they're becoming more popular here in the US, there are a lot of accessories out for it--look up the name "St. Marie". They offer among other things a scope mount, diopter sights (essential for competition shooting), muzzle breaks, bipods, and buttpads. I'd strongly recommend a buttpad, or at least a proper shooting jacket with shoulder padding. The steel buttplate on the K31 can hurt you. If you don't mind permanently modifying your milsurp rifle, go for the drill/tap scope mount, which mounts on the left side of the rifle. Otherwise there is a clamp on mount (very sturdy) which mounts on the right side, but seems kind of awkward. Remember: don't fit the rifle, make the rifle fit you.

[lucas]

I think a Husqvarna or other Swedish Mauser in 6.5 X 55, in good condition is a good choice if it's cheap.

A Finnish Mosin-Nagant is a good one too. Very well made and accurate. Probably one of the best choices possible. The 7.62 X 54R cartridge is capable of doing anything the .308 can.

Locally there aren't so many good bolt action military rifles left cheap. It's better in this city to buy a new gun if accuracy is critical. Mounting a scope on old rifles isn't as straight forward as on a new one. A bit of machining knowledge will let one fit a scope base without much trouble, but not everybody has those skills.

Guns like the Carcano have a bolt that goes straight up when open and prevent top mounting a scope. Side mounting a 'scope is not ideal. Didn't help JFK though.

For $1000 one can buy something brand new and a 'scope that will do the job you want and that prevents searching through all the old ones looking for a good bore and crown. I saw an original .303 sniper the other day. It was sold from a dealer to a dealer for $1500. It will retail for a lot more. The value is in the history and not the performance.

A Tikka varmint in 6.5 X 55 isn't a bad choice and with a Leupold VXI 4-12 would be as good as most people need, but it's over $1000 local dollars. A Howa / Legacy / Weatherby Vanguard with a Tasco 'scope shoots straight enough and that is well under $1000, especially in the USA. The Vanguard is a great value rifle and it's new with a warrantee. Not many 1942 Enfields have a warantee.

I've looked for decent military rifles before, but I cant seem to find one that's cheap and good, so I haven't got one. It's probably a matter of what's local.

[MrSamosa]

I think a Husqvarna or other Swedish Mauser in 6.5 X 55, in good condition is a good choice if it's cheap.

A Finnish Mosin-Nagant is a good one too. Very well made and accurate. Probably one of the best choices possible. The 7.62 X 54R cartridge is capable of doing anything the .308 can.



Much agreed on 6.5x55 Swedish round. It is extremely effective for long-range tack-driving. At ranges beyond 1000 yds, it retains more energy than .308.

Finnish Nagants, as I recall, are largely Russian captures and improvements. In any case, if you've ever felt the difference between the two, the Finnish is clearly the superior choice simply from a "comfort" level.

As for the 7.62x54R round, there's a lot of new stuff on the market. For precision work, avoid old nasty surplus ammo. It's unpredictable and bad for your barrel. The 7N1 round, in current production, is supposed to be very good. If you're going for a Nagant, just make sure the barrel's not corroded to hell and the crown is in good shape. [The same applies for a Mauser]

Remember, these rifles were designed for WWI-style trench warfare: long range shooting from fixed, covered positions. Mauser, K31, Mosin-Nagant, Springfield, Enfield, etc... they can all perform the basic task of putting a bullet on target reliably up to 800 yards. The choice one has to make comes down to the following:

-which has more new production, high quality ammunition (and cheap?) ammunition?
-which is in better shape after all these years?
-*which is most comfortable to operate?*: how does it feel to actually hold? how is the trigger pull? Does cycling the bolt require a great change in posture (e.g., straight handles = more arm movement)?
-How quickly could you get back on target?
-Do you like the iron sights? (You won't do all your shooting with a scope; especially if it's really sunny out or the target is within a reasonable range)
-How easily can a scope be mounted? (e.g.: K31 requires some awkwardness. A Hakim is near impossible to mount a scope onto; but if it had one, it would be an awesome platform)

Oh, and don't "bubba" your rifle too much; all too often, it ends in tragedy for the gun. If it's not broken, don't fix it.

My choices, in order then: K31, Karl Gustav M96, Finnish Nagant, Mosin-Nagant 91/30 [If you can find a "PU," even a bastardized one, all the better].

I don't include the German Mauser for a good reason. It uses a dead cartridge: 8mm. No modern weapon uses it and the surplus stuff is starting to run dry. If you do find a batch of surplus, often times it is low-grade machinegun ammo. Current production ammo is made to SAAMI specs, and is rather anemic--you're not going to get a full powered round. If you buy European ammo (e.g.: Sellier & Bellot), then it's worth considering...but for $.50 a shot, you can do better with 6.5x55 swedish (popular for hunting) and 7.5x55 swiss (still in manufacture--the swiss love their guns, even the old ones).